MUScoop

OK, lots of thoughts in numerous different threads.  Now place your bets.

I say second round and surely not first.  Brew says 55% for first.  Opinions vary to a great degree, so put on your NBA GM hats.  

I guess I don't see the NBA future for a guy who is not as good as DJO or Jerel and neither of them have "made it."  Jerel has played a grand total of 6 minutes in the NBA is a better offensive and defensive player than Vander.

I'm hoping to be wrong, just as I was about the team's record last year, but I wouldn't bet on it.

Quote from: Marquette_g on April 16, 2013, 02:52:45 PM
I guess I don't see the NBA future for a guy who is not as good as DJO or Jerel and neither of them have "made it."  Jerel has played a grand total of 6 minutes in the NBA is a better offensive and defensive player than Vander.

I'm hoping to be wrong, just as I was about the team's record last year, but I wouldn't bet on it.

You're confusing college player and NBA player levels. DJO and Jerel were both better college players than Wes Matthews, but who's been the better pro? With his size, his age, and the timing of his career trend, Vander is a better prospect than either McNeal or DJO were on draft night.

I can see him getting drafted late second round, but I think he will end up playing in Europe within a couple of years...

Quote from: Marquette_g on April 16, 2013, 02:52:45 PM
I guess I don't see the NBA future for a guy who is not as good as DJO or Jerel and neither of them have "made it."  Jerel has played a grand total of 6 minutes in the NBA is a better offensive and defensive player than Vander.

Made me check .. Jerel has 6 minutes, but only in the pre-season .. so doesn't count.  He has yet to play for the Jazz during his 10 day contracts.

But that's a great point:  Who would you rather have on your NBA team, Vander or Jerel?

Easy choice.

Quote from: brewcity77 on April 16, 2013, 02:55:38 PM
You're confusing college player and NBA player levels. DJO and Jerel were both better college players than Wes Matthews, but who's been the better pro? With his size, his age, and the timing of his career trend, Vander is a better prospect than either McNeal or DJO were on draft night.

But with Wes, I watched him and went "man, his jumper and iso work is great and tailored for the NBA even if he isn't being used correctly by Crean."  With Vander I always said "that jumper needs to happen more and his choices a bit better."  Granted, he gained respect by leaps and bounds this year in that department, but he could have really used more time to take that next step.

Vander will be drafted late-first round

You heard it here first.

Quote from: wrk5923 on April 16, 2013, 04:09:28 PM
Vander will be drafted late-first round

You heard it here first.

I'm sure his handlers r saying the same thing... I hope it happens for him!

Quote from: mu_hilltopper on April 16, 2013, 03:36:17 PM
Made me check .. Jerel has 6 minutes, but only in the pre-season .. so doesn't count.  He has yet to play for the Jazz during his 10 day contracts.

But that's a great point:  Who would you rather have on your NBA team, Vander or Jerel?

Easy choice.

I always check the box score of the Jazz games every morning and I no longer see his name, whereas before it would say McNeal DNP coach's decision.  Any reason for that?

Quote from: JakeBarnes on April 16, 2013, 03:38:22 PMBut with Wes, I watched him and went "man, his jumper and iso work is great and tailored for the NBA even if he isn't being used correctly by Crean."  With Vander I always said "that jumper needs to happen more and his choices a bit better."  Granted, he gained respect by leaps and bounds this year in that department, but he could have really used more time to take that next step.

I also thought Wes would be a good NBA fit and was the best prospect of the Amigos. But regarding Van, his shot and shot form have notably improved and his decision-making I don't feel was bad, it was his execution of missing good looks (which improved this year). I think another year would have suited him, but I don't think this is necessarily a bad idea.

Quote from: wrk5923 on April 16, 2013, 04:09:28 PMVander will be drafted late-first round

You heard it here first.

Unless you've been reading the board today.

I'd guessed second round, but if he's declaring I have to assume he's been told there is first round interest.

Now that Vander has committed to the draft and I have found my MU rose colored glasses, I say he gets picked second to last or last in the first round. I have to root for our guy, I don't think this was a good decision but I sincerely hope I am wrong. I want to think that there was interest by some team in the first round or things would not have turned out as they did. Good luck to Vander and Go Warriors!

at least the kid can work all day every day on his shot now.

I predict someone will pick him at the end of the second round...but he won't make the cut. Will ultimately end up in Europe or the D League.

Decent shot he gets a trip to Vegas for summer ball.  That's as close to the NBA as he's getting.  Plenty of overseas opportunity though.

I wished he would have stayed for his senior year.  However, now that he's declared, I think some one could draft him in the late first round. 

Interesting thing I saw on ESPN, point guard Marcus Smart of Oklahoma St, a consensus top 5 pick, will reportedly be returning to school. A lot of guys (including Vander) declaring when they aren't guaranteed money and Smart comes back as a top 5 pick? Don't think that's smart with the way next year's class looks like.

Wouldn't it be nice if ESPN had room to mention that Vander is declaring during Sportscenter?

Which top ten team in the NBA would have a need for Vander if he is indeed going to be selected in the 20s?

I'd say Memphis or OKC would be his best bets to get drafted as a good fit. He is somewhat of a project.  Some of these teams can afford to sit him and let him develop in practice for a year.  Others want to win.  

OKC- maybe.  Harden is gone and I think that Kevin Martin comes off the books next year.  D Fish is probably done.  They have a couple other good guards though, and he could maybe develop for a year and take their spots when those other guys don't want to play for a minimum.

San Antonio- doubt it.  I can't see where he would fit with this team.  Vander is a project and I can see them wanting to get value now with their old core.

Miami- no

Denver- Maybe. Its hard to say what their strategy in general is besides stockpiling above average assets.

Clippers- I doubt it.  They are trying to win now.

Memphis-  They have two young PGs, but an opening at SG.  Maybe this is his best chance in the first round.

Knicks- no.  He doesn't add much for them.

Indiana- no

Brooklyn-  It's impossible to say what their strategy is.  They will need defense behind their aging contracts they have in the backcourt.  This is getting a little early in the draft though.  

Warriors/Rockets/Bulls/Hawks- All will probably have better options in the late teens and early 20s.  

Quote from: HoopsMalone on April 16, 2013, 10:40:32 PM
Which top ten team in the NBA would have a need for Vander if he is indeed going to be selected in the 20s?

I'd say Memphis or OKC would be his best bets to get drafted as a good fit. He is somewhat of a project.  Some of these teams can afford to sit him and let him develop in practice for a year.  Others want to win.  

OKC- maybe.  Harden is gone and I think that Kevin Martin comes off the books next year.  D Fish is probably done.  They have a couple other good guards though, and he could maybe develop for a year and take their spots when those other guys don't want to play for a minimum.

San Antonio- doubt it.  I can't see where he would fit with this team.  Vander is a project and I can see them wanting to get value now with their old core.

Miami- no

Denver- Maybe. Its hard to say what their strategy in general is besides stockpiling above average assets.

Clippers- I doubt it.  They are trying to win now.

Memphis-  They have two young PGs, but a thin backcourt overall.  Maybe this is his best chance in the first round.

Knicks- no.  He doesn't add much for them.

Indiana- no

Brooklyn-  It's impossible to say what their strategy is.  They will need defense behind their aging contracts they have in the backcourt.  This is getting a little early in the draft though.  

Warriors/Rockets/Bulls/Hawks- All will probably have better options in the late teens and early 20s.  

Quote from: HoopsMalone on April 16, 2013, 10:40:32 PM
Which top ten team in the NBA would have a need for Vander if he is indeed going to be selected in the 20s?

I'd say Memphis or OKC would be his best bets to get drafted as a good fit. He is somewhat of a project.  Some of these teams can afford to sit him and let him develop in practice for a year.  Others want to win.  

OKC- maybe.  Harden is gone and I think that Kevin Martin comes off the books next year.  D Fish is probably done.  They have a couple other good guards though, and he could maybe develop for a year and take their spots when those other guys don't want to play for a minimum.

San Antonio- doubt it.  I can't see where he would fit with this team.  Vander is a project and I can see them wanting to get value now with their old core.

Miami- no

Denver- Maybe. Its hard to say what their strategy in general is besides stockpiling above average assets.

Clippers- I doubt it.  They are trying to win now.

Memphis-  They have two young PGs, but an opening at SG.  Maybe this is his best chance in the first round.

Knicks- no.  He doesn't add much for them.

Indiana- no

Brooklyn-  It's impossible to say what their strategy is.  They will need defense behind their aging contracts they have in the backcourt.  This is getting a little early in the draft though.  

Warriors/Rockets/Bulls/Hawks- All will probably have better options in the late teens and early 20s.  

I agree with pretty much everything except OKC, they seem keen on developing Jeremy Lamb as the next Kevin Martin/James Harden 6th man, so I don't think there would be much of an opportunity as they have Sefolosha and Lamb as their shooting guard combo.

At the point in the draft you select solely on BPA. Good teams don't expect late first rounders to play right away, so they want the guy with the most potential. Hell, most prefer a young Euro that won't come over for another year since they don't have to pay him. No reason to pass on a guy that late just because it isn't a position of need.

Quote from: Stone Cold on April 16, 2013, 10:13:39 PM
at least the kid can work all day every day on his shot now.

Unless he gets a shot doctor to completely overhaul it, there's a ceiling to how much reps will help him.

His timing, form, and release are broken. Unfortunately, he's just ingraining bad habits that will be hard to break.

For his sake, I hope he is working with someone.

Quote from: Rockmic87 on April 16, 2013, 10:39:29 PM
Wouldn't it be nice if ESPN had room to mention that Vander is declaring during Sportscenter?

Even on a slow day they wouldn't...

Quote from: MUfan12 on April 16, 2013, 11:29:29 PM
Unless he gets a shot doctor to completely overhaul it, there's a ceiling to how much reps will help him.

His timing, form, and release are broken. Unfortunately, he's just ingraining bad habits that will be hard to break.

For his sake, I hope he is working with someone.

None of this matters if the shot goes in. This is the same form that lead us to the Elite 8. If you look at the NBA and its history, some of the ugliest shot were the most effective (Adrian Dantley, Vinnie Johnson, Shawn Marion, etc.).

Not much love for Vander around here.

I have no idea if / when he gets drafted, but I think he is a better pro prospect than Jerel and DJO.

Quote from: MUSF on April 17, 2013, 07:21:54 AM
Not much love for Vander around here.

I have no idea if / when he gets drafted, but I think he is a better pro prospect than Jerel and DJO.

I think most here would disagree with you.   Jerel was a tremendous defender, not to mention prolific scorer (and has continued that in his D-League seasons) .. DJO was better in every category than Vander.

We'll see what NBA GMs have to say.

Hilltopper
 
You are without a doubt a great MU fan and I respect that, but I think you let your fan opinion shine too much. Vander has wanted to be NBA guy for years and he is in good position to achieve it. Cheer him on and cheer him on going forward.

Quote from: Goose on April 17, 2013, 09:30:08 AM
Hilltopper
 
You are without a doubt a great MU fan and I respect that, but I think you let your fan opinion shine too much. Vander has wanted to be NBA guy for years and he is in good position to achieve it. Cheer him on and cheer him on going forward.

Goose, you pulling out the Vander pom poms too?  ;)

It's okay to have doubts about Vander and give your opinion, it's what Scoop is for.

Quote from: Goose on April 17, 2013, 09:30:08 AM
Hilltopper
 
You are without a doubt a great MU fan and I respect that, but I think you let your fan opinion shine too much. Vander has wanted to be NBA guy for years and he is in good position to achieve it. Cheer him on and cheer him on going forward.

Goose

Well said. Thanks for saying it.

PTM

I have been a Vander fan from day one. None of this surprises me.

Quote from: Goose on April 17, 2013, 09:36:35 AM
PTM

I have been a Vander fan from day one. None of this surprises me.

I'm really not that surprised either, and I've been a stout Vander defender.

In my opinion it's a poor decision, but my opinion could be poor. Who knows?

Hope he got the right information and made the best choice.

I don't understand this notion that because people here (including me) don't believe Vander will be drafted, that we are all of sudden Vander haters.  I'll cheer for the man to do great things in the upcoming months/years hopefully and I don't any doubt that Vander will work his ass off to achieve his dream/goals, but sorry for not seeing things through rose glasses just because he is from Marquette.  He is an undersized NBA 2 guard and doesn't have the outside shot to makeup for that (hell, even DJO couldn't among other things), his defense is average, MAYBE a little above average, for NBA talent, and did I mention he doesn't have that great of a jumpshot.  Yes he's pretty quick and can drive, but most people at the NBA level can/are as well.  Another year would have done him better from a basketball perspective, but I am not one to judge any other motives he probably had.

He did great things for this school's program over the past three years, especially this past year.  His game this year was leaps and bounds better than the past two years and it was great to see that.  He's a great player in college there is no doubt about that.

Quote from: mu_hilltopper on April 17, 2013, 07:54:27 AM
I think most here would disagree with you.   Jerel was a tremendous defender, not to mention prolific scorer (and has continued that in his D-League seasons) .. DJO was better in every category than Vander.

We'll see what NBA GMs have to say.

I'll take your word that the stats say Jerel and DJO were better than Vander, but neither of those guys were the complete player Vander was vs Butler or had the ability to finish at the rim to win games like Vander. Jerel and DJO are better three pioint shooters than Vander. I'd give Blue a tie or the edge in every other category.

Quote from: Lennys Tap on April 17, 2013, 10:48:53 AM
I'll take your word that the stats say Jerel and DJO were better than Vander, but neither of those guys were the complete player Vander was vs Butler or had the ability to finish at the rim to win games like Vander. Jerel and DJO are better three pioint shooters than Vander. I'd give Blue a tie or the edge in every other category.

It is interesting to compare these 3 players.  Vander and DJO both had 3 seasons at MU, albeit DJO didn't have a freshman year.  Jerel was a 4 year guy, but indeed, had to share his time with a future NBA player plus a near-NBA player (DJames).

http://statsheet.com/mcb/players/compare?add=darius-johnson-odom&darius-johnson-odom=career&i=1&jerel-mcneal=career&p1=vander-blue&p2=jerel-mcneal&vander-blue=career

Jerel was simply a complete package at MU.  His Freshman year, he scored 10+ 21 times (Vander: 7).  His Junior year, Jerel hit 20+ points 9 times, Vander 6.  (His Senior year, Jerel hit 20+ points an unreal 21 times.  Not sure you can be much more offensively dominant.)   While hard to quantify beyond steals, one could easily suggest Jerel was a tremendous defender subjectively better than Vander.   I'd say Jerel was elite, while Vander was quite good.  Could opinions differ?  Sure.

Comparing junior years, Jerel bested Vander in nearly every category, points, FG%, 3-FG%, assists, steals, rebounds, blocks.  The only major category Vander was better at was turnovers, with 20 fewer.   

Jerel's senior year was just unreal, but Vander is going to skip it, leaving us with only a hypothetical.  If I were to have to bet, I'd bet Vander's senior year wouldn't be as thoroughly dominant as Jerel's was.  Subjective, yet well based on their collective 3 year histories.

As for being able to finish at the rim?  McNeal did that plenty, building through 4 years.  Vander?  How can anyone forget his first two years?  Or heck, November and December of this year?   

Vander's comparison to DJO is better, although should we compare their Junior years, or their 3rd years at MU?  Not sure which is fairer, obviously DJO was better his 3rd/Senior year.

Junior year comparisons, DJO has more ppg, 3fg%, more assists, blocks, fewer turnovers.
Vander had a better FG%, steals, committed fewer fouls.

DJO certainly drove to the basket plenty, plus he had a solid jump-shot and 3 point shot.  Vander has neither.

In a statistical comparison, Jerel ranks first by a large margin, followed by DJO.  Vander appears to be 3rd.

Quote from: Sunbelt15 on April 17, 2013, 05:24:54 AM
None of this matters if the shot goes in. This is the same form that lead us to the Elite 8. If you look at the NBA and its history, some of the ugliest shot were the most effective (Adrian Dantley, Vinnie Johnson, Shawn Marion, etc.).

That's fine, but their shots went in on a consistent basis.

Was Vander even a 1,000 point scorer? Never heard anything about it.

I think the tourney success since the amigos left has led to them being underrated by MU fans. Especially Dominic and Jerel, since they haven't had the pro success Wesley has had.

All-time ranks: All three were top 10 scoring. James was #2 in assists, McNeal #7. McNeal #1 in steals, James #4.

Jerel was a second team All-American by the time he left! He was better than either of those guys, by far.

Quote from: Aughnanure on April 17, 2013, 04:22:12 PM
Was Vander even a 1,000 point scorer? Never heard anything about it.

He was close, I think he had around 950.

EDIT: He had 982. One good game away from getting there.

Quote from: mu_hilltopper on April 17, 2013, 04:17:42 PM
It is interesting to compare these 3 players.  Vander and DJO both had 3 seasons at MU, albeit DJO didn't have a freshman year.  Jerel was a 4 year guy, but indeed, had to share his time with a future NBA player plus a near-NBA player (DJames).

http://statsheet.com/mcb/players/compare?add=darius-johnson-odom&darius-johnson-odom=career&i=1&jerel-mcneal=career&p1=vander-blue&p2=jerel-mcneal&vander-blue=career

Jerel was simply a complete package at MU.  His Freshman year, he scored 10+ 21 times (Vander: 7).  His Junior year, Jerel hit 20+ points 9 times, Vander 6.  (His Senior year, Jerel hit 20+ points an unreal 21 times.  Not sure you can be much more offensively dominant.)   While hard to quantify beyond steals, one could easily suggest Jerel was a tremendous defender subjectively better than Vander.   I'd say Jerel was elite, while Vander was quite good.  Could opinions differ?  Sure.

Comparing junior years, Jerel bested Vander in nearly every category, points, FG%, 3-FG%, assists, steals, rebounds, blocks.  The only major category Vander was better at was turnovers, with 20 fewer.   

Jerel's senior year was just unreal, but Vander is going to skip it, leaving us with only a hypothetical.  If I were to have to bet, I'd bet Vander's senior year wouldn't be as thoroughly dominant as Jerel's was.  Subjective, yet well based on their collective 3 year histories.

As for being able to finish at the rim?  McNeal did that plenty, building through 4 years.  Vander?  How can anyone forget his first two years?  Or heck, November and December of this year?   

Vander's comparison to DJO is better, although should we compare their Junior years, or their 3rd years at MU?  Not sure which is fairer, obviously DJO was better his 3rd/Senior year.

Junior year comparisons, DJO has more ppg, 3fg%, more assists, blocks, fewer turnovers.
Vander had a better FG%, steals, committed fewer fouls.

DJO certainly drove to the basket plenty, plus he had a solid jump-shot and 3 point shot.  Vander has neither.

In a statistical comparison, Jerel ranks first by a large margin, followed by DJO.  Vander appears to be 3rd.

Comparing players from different draft years doesn't give a strong indication of likelihood of being drafted.... only comparisons with other players in this years draft.

Vander isn't competing with Jerel for a draft spot.

Quote from: chapman on April 16, 2013, 10:31:00 PM
Decent shot he gets a trip to Vegas for summer ball.  That's as close to the NBA as he's getting.  Plenty of overseas opportunity though.

I would give him a 100 percent chance of playing in this years NBA summer league.  Its not exactly difficult to make a summer league roster these days, Dwight Buycks was on a summer league roster, and suprisingly played well.  Having said that, I have a feeling Vander will suprise a lot of people, 1st round wouldnt completley shock me. 

Quote from: sixstrings03 on April 17, 2013, 04:39:24 PM
Comparing players from different draft years doesn't give a strong indication of likelihood of being drafted.... only comparisons with other players in this years draft.

Vander isn't competing with Jerel for a draft spot.

That is completely understood.  The post was about their college careers.

One thing about bad advice, it always tells you what you want to hear! :(

Quote from: flash on April 17, 2013, 06:09:22 PM
I would give him a 100 percent chance of playing in this years NBA summer league.  Its not exactly difficult to make a summer league roster these days, Dwight Buycks was on a summer league roster, and suprisingly played well.  Having said that, I have a feeling Vander will suprise a lot of people, 1st round wouldnt completley shock me. 

It would shock me. But then again, this is the weakest NBA draft in many years.