http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/9172844/meeting-watercooler-discuss-potential-breakout-stars-2013-14-college-basketball
Quote from: indeelaw90 on April 15, 2013, 09:55:43 AM
http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/9172844/meeting-watercooler-discuss-potential-breakout-stars-2013-14-college-basketball
And he might not even start. Our frontcourt is going to be so good next year. Its been so long since I've been able to say that about a Marquette team.
Quote from: Victor McCormick on April 15, 2013, 11:01:47 AM
And he might not even start. Our frontcourt is going to be so good next year. Its been so long since I've been able to say that about a Marquette team.
If he does start that would be a tribute to his offseason conditioning or lack there of! In which he shouldn't be an All-American. It would be such a disappointment.
More proof that Vander should stay at MU.
"The only thing holding Gardner back from recognition is playing time, which will continue to be a challenge because of his size (6-foot-8, 290 pounds). He's a beast in the middle, shooting better than 55 percent on 2-pointers in each of his three seasons, and drawing oodles of fouls in the process. He's also a consistent producer on the offensive glass. If Marquette wins the Big East, Gardner figures to be an important reason for it."
So basically they just called DG Fat and out of shape....
Quote from: Rockmic87 on April 15, 2013, 11:11:53 AM
"The only thing holding Gardner back from recognition is playing time, which will continue to be a challenge because of his size (6-foot-8, 290 pounds). He's a beast in the middle, shooting better than 55 percent on 2-pointers in each of his three seasons, and drawing oodles of fouls in the process. He's also a consistent producer on the offensive glass. If Marquette wins the Big East, Gardner figures to be an important reason for it."
So basically they just called DG Fat and out of shape....
Where did you see this quote? It's not in the article at all...
Quote from: jesmu84 on April 15, 2013, 11:19:13 AM
Where did you see this quote? It's not in the article at all...
Yes it is. Did you scroll down to Devante Gardner?
http://insider.espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/9173034/ncb-arizona-state-sun-devil-jahii-carson-next-season-all-americans
Davante Gardner, F, Marquette Golden Eagles
The only thing holding Gardner back from recognition is playing time, which will continue to be a challenge because of his size (6-foot-8, 290 pounds). He's a beast in the middle, shooting better than 55 percent on 2-pointers in each of his three seasons, and drawing oodles of fouls in the process. He's also a consistent producer on the offensive glass. If Marquette wins the Big East, Gardner figures to be an important reason for it.
Quote from: THEultimateWARRIOR on April 15, 2013, 11:24:15 AM
Yes it is. Did you scroll down to Devante Gardner?
http://insider.espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/9173034/ncb-arizona-state-sun-devil-jahii-carson-next-season-all-americans
Davante Gardner, F, Marquette Golden Eagles
The only thing holding Gardner back from recognition is playing time, which will continue to be a challenge because of his size (6-foot-8, 290 pounds). He's a beast in the middle, shooting better than 55 percent on 2-pointers in each of his three seasons, and drawing oodles of fouls in the process. He's also a consistent producer on the offensive glass. If Marquette wins the Big East, Gardner figures to be an important reason for it.
Got it now. I thought he was referring to the OP article. I never saw a link to that article.
Saying Davante needs to lose weight seems like such an uninformed response by these guys. His size is what makes him so good. No, he isn't going to win any marathons or play 30 minutes a game. He is what he is, a 250+ lb bowling ball with an incredibly soft touch who throws his weight into people and draws a ton of fouls. Explosiveness isn't his game and most likely never will be. I love DeDe for who he is.
Quote from: Victor McCormick on April 15, 2013, 11:01:47 AM
And he might not even start. Our frontcourt is going to be so good next year. Its been so long since I've been able to say that about a Marquette team.
Hard to believe. I have never understood the Otule starting argument. Supposedly for the tip, but he does not even control that about half the time. There is absolutely no comparison between Otule and Gardner on the offenisve end. Gardner is better shooter, rebounder, passer, FT shooter, assist man, and scorer--hands down.
Quote from: willie warrior on April 15, 2013, 11:47:10 AM
Hard to believe. I have never understood the Otule starting argument. Supposedly for the tip, but he does not even control that about half the time. There is absolutely no comparison between Otule and Gardner on the offenisve end. Gardner is better shooter, rebounder, passer, FT shooter, assist man, and scorer--hands down.
I think Chris starts mainly because Davante tires quickly and also to keep Davante out of foul trouble. Also, Buzz wants to keep DG fresh for the end-of-game situations to hit free throws, something Chris needs to improve on. I would say that the Chris starting is a great idea and worked out very well this year.
Willie have you missed how hard CO works when he is out there? He is wearing down the opponents with his efforts and taking up a lot of space constantly fighting for position.
Quote from: willie warrior on April 15, 2013, 11:47:10 AM
Hard to believe. I have never understood the Otule starting argument. Supposedly for the tip, but he does not even control that about half the time. There is absolutely no comparison between Otule and Gardner on the offenisve end. Gardner is better shooter, rebounder, passer, FT shooter, assist man, and scorer--hands down.
Would've agreed with you at the beginning last year. Now I'm not so sure. I think Chris gets the start due to his improvement this year and the fact that Devante will only be going 20-25 minutes a game. Buzz will start Chris, although they will probably play equal minutes.
Quote from: willie warrior on April 15, 2013, 11:47:10 AM
Hard to believe. I have never understood the Otule starting argument. Supposedly for the tip, but he does not even control that about half the time. There is absolutely no comparison between Otule and Gardner on the offenisve end. Gardner is better shooter, rebounder, passer, FT shooter, assist man, and scorer--hands down.
Gardner would be lucky to win 2 opening tips over the whole season. Otule is definitely better and Buzz has an obsession over stats like number of possesions so I would be shocked to see Gardner take the tip barring injury.
Quote from: willie warrior on April 15, 2013, 11:47:10 AM
Hard to believe. I have never understood the Otule starting argument. Supposedly for the tip, but he does not even control that about half the time. There is absolutely no comparison between Otule and Gardner on the offenisve end. Gardner is better shooter, rebounder, passer, FT shooter, assist man, and scorer--hands down.
Did you watch the second half of last season? Did you see the way Otule played defense, not only the shots he blocked but the shots he changed? Did you see he even contributed offensively much of the time with his baby hook?
Otule is a quality, high-level, Division I big man. Any team would be thrilled to have him. Of course, they'd be thrilled to have Davante, too. The fact that Otule starts and plays 15-20 mins keeps Davante out of foul trouble and keeps him fresh so he can play down the stretch of every game for his FT shooting and better hands.
It's the best 1-2 punch in the country and Buzz has expertly handled their playing time.
I actually think Otule is the better player. Gardner will go on burst like the SU game, but other times he can't create his own shot. Sometimes Otule works better in the offense because he stays close to the basket for easy layups/dunks and offensive boards. On defense, Otule was just a beast.
Quote from: willie warrior on April 15, 2013, 11:47:10 AM
Hard to believe. I have never understood the Otule starting argument. Supposedly for the tip, but he does not even control that about half the time. There is absolutely no comparison between Otule and Gardner on the offenisve end. Gardner is better shooter, rebounder, passer, FT shooter, assist man, and scorer--hands down.
I love Davante but I would rather see Vander tip than him.
Willie, before your hiatus you did nothing but complain about how MU needed bigs. Our 5 position is now one of the strongest in the country and you are still complaining. Buzz managed CO and DG's minutes brilliantly this past season. CO got 15-20, was almost always in crucial defensive situations, blocked and altered shots, and wore out opposing 5's. DG was almost always in at the end of the game and when he would check in after the first media TO, he was usually either facing an opponent's back-up 5, or a starter with one foul already. How anybody can be critical of the usage of our centers is beyond me.
Let McKay do the tip. Guy's 6'10 and can jump out of the gym.
Quote from: willie warrior on April 15, 2013, 11:47:10 AM
Hard to believe. I have never understood the Otule starting argument. Supposedly for the tip, but he does not even control that about half the time. There is absolutely no comparison between Otule and Gardner on the offenisve end. Gardner is better shooter, rebounder, passer, FT shooter, assist man, and scorer--hands down.
You're locked into a "5 best players must start" mentality. Not necessarily true when you get to this level.There are reasons Davante (and Jamil) don't start, even though they are arguably 2 of our top 3 players (and certainly 2 of our 3 top offensive players). Davante has limited stamina, and its imperative that he be fresh at the end of games, as he's a plus ball handler and our best free throw shooter. Early foul trouble and fatigue are the enemy, so Buzz gives CO more minutes in the first half to wear down the other team's front line and keep Gardner ready to finish. I think it has almost nothing to do with winning the opening tip.
I can only say that people that think Otule is definitely better than Gardner are wrong. Look at the stats. And Otule has two more years of experience. I guess those people are very sure that Otule will be drafted by the NBA. We can wait and see. And starting a guy to win the tip about half the time seems lame to me. Buzz sarted some other guys that only saw about 3 minutes a half, including Erik Williams who is out of basketball, I believe.
Yes, Otule is a hard worker, so is Derrick Wilson, so is Juan Anderson, so is Jake Thomas, so are many other players--does that mean that a hard worker should start? I am glad we have Otule and glad he is coming back, and hope he improves more next year.
Quote from: willie warrior on April 15, 2013, 01:05:11 PM
I can only say that people that think Otule is definitely better than Gardner are wrong. Look at the stats. And Otule has two more years of experience. I guess those people are very sure that Otule will be drafted by the NBA. We can wait and see. And starting a guy to win the tip about half the time seems lame to me. Buzz sarted some other guys that only saw about 3 minutes a half, including Erik Williams who is out of basketball, I believe.
Yes, Otule is a hard worker, so is Derrick Wilson, so is Juan Anderson, so is Jake Thomas, so are many other players--does that mean that a hard worker should start? I am glad we have Otule and glad he is coming back, and hope he improves more next year.
Offensive stats, yes. What about defensive stats? Or what about offensive things like sealing the lane that Otule does much better than Gardner? Those aren't measured at all.
Quote from: jesmu84 on April 15, 2013, 01:12:45 PM
Offensive stats, yes. What about defensive stats? Or what about offensive things like sealing the lane that Otule does much better than Gardner? Those aren't measured at all.
Don't argue with Willie. It doesn't achieve a single thing.
Anyone else see JFB take the tip for the Bulls the other night? Boozer should be ashamed of himself.
Quote from: tommyc6 on April 15, 2013, 11:31:14 AM
Saying Davante needs to lose weight seems like such an uninformed response by these guys. His size is what makes him so good. No, he isn't going to win any marathons or play 30 minutes a game. He is what he is, a 250+ lb bowling ball with an incredibly soft touch who throws his weight into people and draws a ton of fouls. Explosiveness isn't his game and most likely never will be. I love DeDe for who he is.
Agree completely on everything you've said.
Quote from: willie warrior on April 15, 2013, 01:05:11 PM
I can only say that people that think Otule is definitely better than Gardner are wrong. Look at the stats. And Otule has two more years of experience. I guess those people are very sure that Otule will be drafted by the NBA. We can wait and see. And starting a guy to win the tip about half the time seems lame to me. Buzz sarted some other guys that only saw about 3 minutes a half, including Erik Williams who is out of basketball, I believe.
Yes, Otule is a hard worker, so is Derrick Wilson, so is Juan Anderson, so is Jake Thomas, so are many other players--does that mean that a hard worker should start? I am glad we have Otule and glad he is coming back, and hope he improves more next year.
I am not saying Otule is better than Gardner. Otule is better defensively. Gardner is better offensively. However, it is a myth to say that Gardner is an unstoppable offensive juggernaut. His point totals were all over the place. He struggles to get his shot off against athletic bigs. He gets frustrated when he doesn't get a call and it affects his defense. IMO, Buzz needs to keep doing what he is doing with his centers.
Losing weight is fine, but Devante has to learn how to block out with that weight, barely puts his body on another player. He will never be a big jumper, but how many times was he
out hustled on the D end, needs to learn fundamentals and get tougher, stop pounding his chest every time he makes a lay-up, get back, and plays D.
Quote from: tower912 on April 15, 2013, 02:06:40 PM
I am not saying Otule is better than Gardner. Otule is better defensively. Gardner is better offensively. However, it is a myth to say that Gardner is an unstoppable offensive juggernaut. His point totals were all over the place. He struggles to get his shot off against athletic bigs. He gets frustrated when he doesn't get a call and it affects his defense. IMO, Buzz needs to keep doing what he is doing with his centers.
Never said that Gardner is an offensive juggernaught--that is what you just said was a myth.. He is much better than Otule offensively in all categories--except shooting %. What I said is that I never understood Otule starting for the tip, which he doesn't get overwhelmingly. Jamil Wilson could do as well on the tip. I get that Otule is better defensively, although how much is debatable. It is equally a myth to say that Otule is a defensive juggernaught.
I have already said that Otule should start at Center and Gardner at PF. With players we have next year they can both be spelled for rest purposes as much as needed with Ja. Wilson, McKay, Taylor. Then some people get excited that would never work to have Gardner play PF. I remember when Gardner first arrived at MU how many criticized him as being marginal. Has he not proven those wrong?
Sorry some of you disagree, but I guess that is par for some to then criticize.
The 2nd half of the season, it felt like Otule would get about 6 of our first 10 points to start the game (and then not score from there on out).
Quote from: ATL MU Warrior on April 15, 2013, 01:15:10 PM
Don't argue with Willie. It doesn't achieve a single thing.
Agree. No sense arguing with a guy who either didn't see Marquette play from Feb. 1 on and/or who has no basketball knowledge beyond looking at a stat sheet.
Quote from: MU82 on April 15, 2013, 05:21:11 PM
Agree. No sense arguing with a guy who either didn't see Marquette play from Feb. 1 on and/or who has no basketball knowledge beyond looking at a stat sheet.
Thank you MU82. You know nothing about me, but you sure show your knowledge. Been an Mu fan since 1955, but all that makes me is an old guy who knows nothing!
Quote from: willie warrior on April 15, 2013, 06:33:18 PM
Thank you MU82. You know nothing about me, but you sure show your knowledge. Been an Mu fan since 1955, but all that makes me is an old guy who knows nothing!
All I'm saying is that if you think Otule didn't significantly help the Warriors from Feb. 1 on, the scope of your knowledge is questionable.
Quote from: tommyc6 on April 15, 2013, 11:31:14 AM
Saying Davante needs to lose weight seems like such an uninformed response by these guys. His size is what makes him so good. No, he isn't going to win any marathons or play 30 minutes a game. He is what he is, a 250+ lb bowling ball with an incredibly soft touch who throws his weight into people and draws a ton of fouls. Explosiveness isn't his game and most likely never will be. I love DeDe for who he is.
They didn't say he needs to lose weight. They said his size will limit his playing time. By your own admission, its an accurate statement.
Quote from: MU82 on April 15, 2013, 07:04:40 PM
All I'm saying is that if you think Otule didn't significantly help the Warriors from Feb. 1 on, the scope of your knowledge is questionable.
Never said he didn't significantly help from Feb. 1. I have said they both should start next year.
So lets take a look at the facts:
During the stretch that you keep mentioning From Feb.1:
Otule averaged 6.3 ppg and 4.2 rpg-his season averages were 5.1 and 3.5 rpg-so he did increase his average by 1.2ppg and .7rpg during that stretch, which is good.
During those same 16 games, Gardner outscored Otule 11 of those games. Gardner averaged 9.4 ppg and 4.0 rpg in that stretch. Gardner also had 15 assists in that stretch to Otule's 6. Gardner had 31 TO's to Otule's 22.
If you want to say that Otule significantly helped the Warriors, fine. Then we can both agree that Gardner even more significantly helped the Warriors than Otule during that stretch.
Never ever let the facts get in the way of your opinion.
Quote from: tommyc6 on April 15, 2013, 11:31:14 AM
Saying Davante needs to lose weight seems like such an uninformed response by these guys. His size is what makes him so good. No, he isn't going to win any marathons or play 30 minutes a game. He is what he is, a 250+ lb bowling ball with an incredibly soft touch who throws his weight into people and draws a ton of fouls. Explosiveness isn't his game and most likely never will be. I love DeDe for who he is.
??? Last time he was 250 he was probably 15 years old.
Quote from: willie warrior on April 16, 2013, 08:37:13 AM
Never said he didn't significantly help from Feb. 1. I have said they both should start next year.
So lets take a look at the facts:
During the stretch that you keep mentioning From Feb.1:
Otule averaged 6.3 ppg and 4.2 rpg-his season averages were 5.1 and 3.5 rpg-so he did increase his average by 1.2ppg and .7rpg during that stretch, which is good.
During those same 16 games, Gardner outscored Otule 11 of those games. Gardner averaged 9.4 ppg and 4.0 rpg in that stretch. Gardner also had 15 assists in that stretch to Otule's 6. Gardner had 31 TO's to Otule's 22.
If you want to say that Otule significantly helped the Warriors, fine. Then we can both agree that Gardner even more significantly helped the Warriors than Otule during that stretch.
Never ever let the facts get in the way of your opinion.
Dude. It doesn't matter who starts the game. Otule does for the tip and defense. Not hard to wrap your brain around. Davante finishes the game due to his offense and FT shooting prowess. Throughout the game the two are generally subbed offense/defense, so as to maximize Davante's offensive possessions. This formula has worked very well when both were healthy the past two years. What's there to complain about?
Quote from: willie warrior on April 15, 2013, 03:27:07 PMWhat I said is that I never understood Otule starting for the tip, which he doesn't get overwhelmingly. Jamil Wilson could do as well on the tip.
Chris Otule won 24 tips in 35 games this year, which is 68.9% of the tip-offs we took. I don't think Jamil would win anywhere close to that. Maybe 35-40%. Gardner would probably win about 5-10%.
It's not complicated, and anyone that thinks being guaranteed to at least tie the possession battle doesn't matter immensely to Buzz for a team that is often playing one to two possession games simply doesn't understand anything about how this team operates.
Quote from: brewcity77 on April 16, 2013, 01:03:19 PM
Chris Otule won 24 tips in 35 games this year, which is 68.9% of the tip-offs we took. I don't think Jamil would win anywhere close to that. Maybe 35-40%. Gardner would probably win about 5-10%.
It's not complicated, and anyone that thinks being guaranteed to at least tie the possession battle doesn't matter immensely to Buzz for a team that is often playing one to two possession games simply doesn't understand anything about how this team operates.
GREAT points Brew. Otule is the obvious choice for the starting 5, for these reasons and everything else mentioned before. Davante belongs in to close games out and make the free throws. Its an almost perfect arrangement. Both are important and valuable for different reasons. And having the ability to have two bigs play 20-25 minutes a game like that is a really valuable asset, and one of the reasons I still think we win the Big East next year, even without Vander.
If there's anything good that came from the Elite-Eight game, it was the unique opportunity to see Gardner and Otule on the court simultaneously. I really liked the combo, and if Gardner got in better shape, I would love to see us use this with a little more frequency this year.