In years past, with a the start of the conference season, Buzz would pick 6-7 players and (for the most part) that was our rotation. Before you start, I do believe we have a deeper team, talent wise, this year than any other year Buzz has coached at MU. My concern is our very best players don't have a chance to get a rhythm for the game. This leads to our high turnover rate. Also, as Buzz mass substitutes, sometimes we end up with crazy line-ups that don't work we'll together. I would start Cadougan, Blue, JWilson, O'tule, and Lockett. Then sub in Gardner and Mayo. If I went to an 8th it would be Taylor. Buzz mentioned, on his last tv show, that he did that for the second half of the Seton Hall game and I think it worked out well.
In your scenario Junior has to play 40 minutes. So add in Derrick Wilson for 10 or so to spell Junior. Then you have to mitigate Jamil's foul trouble, which is the reason Juan "starts". You could argue that Steve Taylor could be getting those minutes, but there is still a defensive liability with him on the floor.
So now we have your scenario, plus Derrick and Juan's limited minutes and we're right back to where Buzz has been all season long.
You assume JWilson will foul out every game, I disagree. I will admit I don't know how many times he has fouled out but that can be fixed. Cadougan does not have to play 40 minutes, Blue and Mayo can play point, more Blue than Mayo. Finally, I didn't say never play others just limit their playing time substantially.
So, MU is 19-7 overall, 10-4 in conference and ranked in the top 25 - which I think most here would admit exceeds expectations - and because of a road loss to a team that also beaten Syracuse and Louisville in their building, people want to:
- replace the starting point guard
- move the leading scorer to a new position, which he's never played at this level
- significantly alter the rotation to take away one of the team's strengths (i.e. depth).
Good thing nobody's overreacting.
What are you seeing that convinces you Blue and Mayo can play point? Their negative assist-to-turnover ratios?
Oh, and in years past, Buzz had shorter rotations by necessity.
Quote from: Pakuni on February 25, 2013, 11:57:06 AM
So, MU is 19-7 overall, 10-4 in conference and ranked in the top 25 - which I think most here would admit exceeds expectations - and because of a road loss to a team that also beaten Syracuse and Louisville in their building, people want to:
- replace the starting point guard
- move the leading scorer to a new position, which he's never played at this level
- significantly alter the rotation to take away one of the team's strengths (i.e. depth).
Good thing nobody's overreacting.
What are you seeing that convinces you Blue and Mayo can play point? Their negative assist-to-turnover ratios?
Oh, and in years past, Buzz had shorter rotations by necessity.
+1
In eight hours we will have threads that we a final four team or we are an NIT team.
Quote from: AnotherMU84 on February 25, 2013, 12:01:21 PM
+1
In eight hours we will have threads that we a final four team or we are an NIT team.
Or worse, a CBI team.
Quote from: denverMU on February 25, 2013, 11:23:50 AM
You assume JWilson will foul out every game, I disagree. I will admit I don't know how many times he has fouled out but that can be fixed. Cadougan does not have to play 40 minutes, Blue and Mayo can play point, more Blue than Mayo. Finally, I didn't say never play others just limit their playing time substantially.
I'm not saying he'll foul out every game, but I am saying that he's proven to limit himself with foul trouble. You can't just "fix" that by telling him to foul less. It's not that easy.
I also think everyone vastly overrates the prowess of Todd Mayo. Yes, he can get hot and put up 12 points in limited minutes, but much more often he is a non factor. Neither he nor Blue have shown any ability to play point.
Quote from: Pakuni on February 25, 2013, 11:57:06 AM
So, MU is 19-7 overall, 10-4 in conference and ranked in the top 25 - which I think most here would admit exceeds expectations - and because of a road loss to a team that also beaten Syracuse and Louisville in their building, people want to:
- replace the starting point guard
- move the leading scorer to a new position, which he's never played at this level
- significantly alter the rotation to take away one of the team's strengths (i.e. depth).
Good thing nobody's overreacting.
What are you seeing that convinces you Blue and Mayo can play point? Their negative assist-to-turnover ratios?
Oh, and in years past, Buzz had shorter rotations by necessity.
Where can I purchase a copy of "So, you think you coach college
basketball better than Buzz Williams?" home game??
Quote from: lab_warrior on February 25, 2013, 12:14:51 PM
Where can I purchase a copy of "So, you think you coach college
basketball better than Buzz Williams?" home game??
It's free on the Internet.
Edit: I don't think there's anything wrong with questioning coaching decisions, etc., but suggestions to drastically alter the lineup and put players at new positions in the final two weeks of a better-than-expected season are ... um, bad.
Only one question, playing Devante 11 minutes ?
Quote from: muchamps on February 25, 2013, 12:40:16 PM
Only one question, playing Devante 11 minutes ?
Yes. I missed the Villanova game and have been wondering about this. What happened?
Was Chris playing great? From the boxscore it appeared that he had one of his better games but still...
Quote from: muchamps on February 25, 2013, 12:40:16 PM
Only one question, playing Devante 11 minutes ?
He was awful, I know people around here aren't allowed to admit that, but it's true. Buzz said so himself in the postgame. When he can't catch the ball with one foot in the paint or if there are refs that have grown tired of his antics and won't give him the benefit of the doubt whenever he flails his arms while missing a layup, he provides minimal value to the team.
Quote from: Pakuni on February 25, 2013, 11:57:06 AM
So, MU is 19-7 overall, 10-4 in conference and ranked in the top 25 - which I think most here would admit exceeds expectations - and because of a road loss to a team that also beaten Syracuse and Louisville in their building, people want to:
- replace the starting point guard
- move the leading scorer to a new position, which he's never played at this level
- significantly alter the rotation to take away one of the team's strengths (i.e. depth).
Good thing nobody's overreacting.
What are you seeing that convinces you Blue and Mayo can play point? Their negative assist-to-
Oh, and in years past, Buzz had shorter rotations by necessity.
Where to begin??? My post was not a reaction to losses at Cuse and Loserville, I expected those. It is based on low scoring, high turnovers(in certain games), and my perceived lack of consistency in many of our players. Next, I don't want to replace our starting guard, if anything my suggestion plays Cadougan more. At times Blue might play point but he has done that at MU so your assertion he has never played it at any level is incorrect. Significantly alter the rotation maybe(3 players play less) but these hockey type mass subs, as I said and you failed to address, makes us end up with inconsistent play crazy pairings. For example, I think in the first half at Villanova we were playing, DWilson, Locket, Anderson, Taylor, and Blue. Finally, the overreaction is on your part, I am simply suggesting Buzz do what he has done in prior years and said he did in Seton Hall games which worked well. OBTW Buzz is a great coach and I hope he stays at MU until he retires at the ripe old age of 80.
Quote from: denverMU on February 25, 2013, 01:55:46 PM
Where to begin??? My post was not a reaction to losses at Cuse and Loserville, I expected those.
That's good, since MU didn't lose at Syracuse. Or even play at Syracuse. I wrote that your reaction was to a road loss against a team (Nova) that also beat Louisville and Syracuse at Nova.
QuoteIt is based on low scoring, high turnovers(in certain games), and my perceived lack of consistency in many of our players.
Prior to Saturday's game, MU ranked second in the Big East in offensive efficiency and fourth in points per game. Yeah, there's been some inconsistency, but it seems to me that one doesn't create consistency by significantly changing player roles and responsibilities 3/4 through a season ... especially when there's no clearly better alternative.
Nor do you solve turnover problems by putting even more turnover prone players in charge of distributing the ball.
QuoteNext, I don't want to replace our starting guard, if anything my suggestion plays Cadougan more.
I was speaking to what's been suggested in other threads advocating for big lineup changes at this point in the season (such as those saying Cadougan should be benched and Blue moved to the point).
QuoteFinally, the overreaction is on your part, I am simply suggesting Buzz do what he has done in prior years and said he did in Seton Hall games which worked well.
He didn't do anything different in the Seton Hall games.
Nine players saw 9+ minutes in the first Seton Hall game.
Nine players saw 9+ minutes in the second Seton Hall game.
Nine players saw 9+ minutes in the Nova game.
What was different was the opponent.
Quote from: denverMU on February 25, 2013, 01:55:46 PM
Where to begin??? My post was not a reaction to losses at Cuse and Loserville, I expected those. It is based on low scoring, high turnovers(in certain games), and my perceived lack of consistency in many of our players. Next, I don't want to replace our starting guard, if anything my suggestion plays Cadougan more. At times Blue might play point but he has done that at MU so your assertion he has never played it at any level is incorrect. Significantly alter the rotation maybe(3 players play less) but these hockey type mass subs, as I said and you failed to address, makes us end up with inconsistent play crazy pairings. For example, I think in the first half at Villanova we were playing, DWilson, Locket, Anderson, Taylor, and Blue. Finally, the overreaction is on your part, I am simply suggesting Buzz do what he has done in prior years and said he did in Seton Hall games which worked well. OBTW Buzz is a great coach and I hope he stays at MU until he retires at the ripe old age of 80.
A lot of the hockey-style changes are when the game is approaching a TV timeout. If Buzz can get his big-minute guys even a few extra seconds of rest, he's going to do it. He also makes a lot of offense-defense substitutions because the roster has a few guys who are much better on one end of the floor or are much better at one end of the floor than his peer. As organized as Buzz is in every facet of his life, there's no way that any 5 on the floor would be a "crazy pairing" resulting from over-substituting. There's a strategy behind every substitution that he makes and there is a reason why every player sees the minutes that he does. The reason why the shorter rotation worked well in the past is because of the players in that rotation. If Jamil and Lockett were producing like DJO and Crowder, then Juan and Taylor would be buried on the bench.
Sorry, I misread the first part of my post, it still doesn't change anything the loss to Nova not the reason. Mainly based on quote from Buzz on his tv show. Cadougan has our highest turnover rate, so I'm not sure who you are referring to when you talk of higher turnover players handling the ball more. After all you complained about people wanting to replace Cadougan. Unfortunately, I erased the last Buzz show already, so I don't have the direct quote, but Buzz said something like " he made the decision to stick with 6 players and win or lose with them". I just believe, in the past, we have narrowed the number of players who see significant playing time and we have been very successful. I believe it allows those players to feel more comfortable with those players and play more consistently.
<sigh>
I remember the days when Buzz was criticized for having too short a rotation and that was the reason for a loss to <insert team here>.
Now he's criticized for playing too many players.
We've gotten this far with rotation and won significant games, guaranteed a spot in the tournament, and improving everyday. No need to change now. Let's take it and beat 'Cuse.
They played 11 tonight. All but Ferguson. Buzz did a great job of figuring out what the best match ups were and keeping people fresh. That's why you don't just stick with 7.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on February 25, 2013, 08:25:10 PM
They played 11 tonight. All but Ferguson. Buzz did a great job of figuring out what the best match ups were and keeping people fresh. That's why you don't just stick with 7.
Welcome back!
Thank you. I'm just going to have to put some people on ignore from now on.
Quote from: denverMU on February 25, 2013, 11:23:50 AM
You assume JWilson will foul out every game, I disagree. I will admit I don't know how many times he has fouled out but that can be fixed. Cadougan does not have to play 40 minutes, Blue and Mayo can play point, more Blue than Mayo. Finally, I didn't say never play others just limit their playing time substantially.
Jamil Wilson - 34 minutes. 1 Foul.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on February 25, 2013, 08:25:10 PM
They played 11 tonight. All but Ferguson. Buzz did a great job of figuring out what the best match ups were and keeping people fresh. That's why you don't just stick with 7.
Take a look at the second half, when we came back and played our best! We played Cadougan, JWilson, Gardner, Blue, Taylor,Mayo, and a little O'tule . Plus no mass substitutions. Just exactly what Buzz and I suggested. OBTW, 5 players 17+ minutes and 7 players 16+ minutes.
The only player of the 11 who played that didn't play in the second half was Anderson. And one of the players that didn't hit double digit minutes was Jake Thomas....and he hit one of the biggest shots of the season.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on February 25, 2013, 08:47:31 PM
The only player of the 11 who played that didn't play in the second half was Anderson. And one of the players that didn't hit double digit minutes was Jake Thomas....and he hit one of the biggest shots of the season.
Your point? As I said "pick 7 and play the hell out of them" just what Buzz did in the second half. I didn't say pick 7 and play no one else. 7 players 16+ minutes, 3 players 7 < minutes, and 1 player 13 < minutes.
Second half minutes, Gardner -19, Cadougan -19, JWilson -18, Taylor -12, Blue -9, O'tule -9, and Mayo -8. Pick 7 players and play the hell out of them, thank you Buzz!
Quote from: denverMU on February 25, 2013, 09:15:02 PM
Second half minutes, Gardner -19, Cadougan -19, JWilson -18, Taylor -12, Blue -9, O'tule -9, and Mayo -8. Pick 7 players and play the hell out of them, thank you Buzz!
You're shifting the goalposts from your original statement. Originally you were talking about the conference season...not you are shifting the timeframe to one half of one game. You originally said this:
"In years past, with a the start of the conference season, Buzz would pick 6-7 players and (for the most part) that was our rotation. ... My concern is our very best players don't have a chance to get a rhythm for the game. This leads to our high turnover rate. Also, as Buzz mass substitutes, sometimes we end up with crazy line-ups that don't work we'll together. "
If anything, this game tonight proves that you are wrong. He played 11 guys, figured out a "crazy" line-up that worked, and went with the hot guys Not the top 6-7 guys like you advocated.
I could not agree more that picking 7 and playing them the most with an 8th when necessary is in line with my opinion on giving your players the best chance of getting in the flow of the game. That being said I stated earlier in the year when they were completely over achieving that I would quit questioning buzz and just appreciate how great of a job he is doing.... Even though at the core I disagree with his substuiting sometimes. He is coach of the year and I hope he stays forever at MU.
Quote from: IrwinFletcher on February 25, 2013, 08:29:19 PM
Jamil Wilson - 34 minutes. 1 Foul.
He defense was OUTSTANDING last night. Buzz noted that is why he played so much even though he did not shoot the ball that well.
Be thankful that MU has a coach who can read the game, win playing different styles, win playing different combinations. Buzz found a hot group and rode them last night. It was easier to do because Syracuse wasn't coming out of that zone, and MU spent most of the night playing zone. It was a moderately paced game. That isn't the case every game and there isn't a hot group every game. It worked last night. Against ND, who isn't athletic or deep, Buzz may use his depth to pressure them and wear them down.
Think about it. MU beat SYRACUSE getting next to nothing from Blue, Lockett, Juan. If I had told you to eliminate 3 guys from the rotation because, oh yeah, there is going to be Jake Thomas minutes, who would have picked those 3? MU won playing 'big' most of the second half with only 2 guards in for most of the second half. Read that again. MU...won....playing....big. With combinations we haven't seen before. Magnificent.
The bottom line is that MU is 20-7, 11-4, with a team that the pundits projected to finish in the middle of the Big East pack. Most of the players have holes in their games. Buzz won last night using a different combination and a different style of zone offense than he has previously. That combination probably won't work against ND, because ND is a different puzzle. Enjoy last night's win.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on February 26, 2013, 05:48:10 AM
You're shifting the goalposts from your original statement. Originally you were talking about the conference season...not you are shifting the timeframe to one half of one game. You originally said this:
"In years past, with a the start of the conference season, Buzz would pick 6-7 players and (for the most part) that was our rotation. ... My concern is our very best players don't have a chance to get a rhythm for the game. This leads to our high turnover rate. Also, as Buzz mass substitutes, sometimes we end up with crazy line-ups that don't work we'll together. "
If anything, this game tonight proves that you are wrong. He played 11 guys, figured out a "crazy" line-up that worked, and went with the hot guys Not the top 6-7 guys like you advocated.
I'm not shifting anything, I pointed out in years past Buzz had settled on a shorter line-up by the start of the conference season and on his last show he mentioned he did that for the second half of the Seton Hall game. You keep trying to say Buzz played 11 guys, so I'm wrong. As I pointed out, I never said only play 7 and I showed in my last post Buzz played 7 players a vast majority in the second half. The exact 7 I suggested(just dumb luck). 7 players played 94% of the minutes in the second half.
Denver, what Sultan is saying is that the 7-8 guys that emerged last night were specific to the mission at hand against 'Cuse. It very well could be a different mix against ND on Saturday. I for one will be watching for Big Chris to make Cooley's life miserable. If your point was 7-8 in a game so a rhythm can develop rather than 7-8 anointed for all of conference than I guess we're all on the same page.
Yes, we all be. But ,who on this board, have ever let the facts get in the way of a good back and forth? We may even agree on who the 7 should be.
Quote from: jsglow on February 26, 2013, 11:20:23 AM
Denver, what Sultan is saying is that the 7-8 guys that emerged last night were specific to the mission at hand against 'Cuse. It very well could be a different mix against ND on Saturday. I for one will be watching for Big Chris to make Cooley's life miserable. If your point was 7-8 in a game so a rhythm can develop rather than 7-8 anointed for all of conference than I guess we're all on the same page.
Agreed. Buzz has shown all year that he'll mix and match lineups and rotations until he finds something that works. What happened last night wasn't any different than that. He found a lineup that worked - one that, notably, had his first and third-leading minute getters (that's probably not a word) riding the pines for much of the second half.