This is related to the UNC discussion but I thought it was worthy its own thread ....
In the UNC discussion we discussed the relative strength of the major conferences in terms of money (B1G leads) and football (SEC leads). How about academic reputation?
Below is my ranking ... what say you?
1. Pac-12
2. ACC
3. Big East
4. Big 10
5. Big 12
6. SEC
Rank them according to the schools in them today.
1. ACC
2. Pac 12
3. Big 10
4. Big East
5. Big 12
6. SEC
Of course, I have no idea what criteria im suppose to use.
1. Big Ten
2. Pac 12
3. ACC
4. Big East
5. Big 12
6. SEC
FWIW ...
The SEC has eight schools in the US News top 100.
The Big 12 has three.
The (current) Big East has seven.
Big 10 has 11 ( ha ha, stupid Nebraska).
Pac 10 has eight.
The ACC has 11, including seven in the top 44.
I'm declaring the ACC the winner.
B1G
ACC
Pac 12
BEast
SEC
Big 12
ACC
B1G
PAC 12
Catholic 7
SEC
BIG 12
New Big East
The new new big east is a mid major soon to be
Quote from: keefe on February 20, 2013, 04:53:00 PM
B1G
ACC
Pac 12
BEast
SEC
Big 12
Ding ding ding.
The Big 12 has gotten hurt by realignment, but its more a factor of having large state schools in much less populated areas (i.e., less money for research, grants - which the USNWR loves). KU, OU, UT, Baylor, TCU, and Iowa St are all fine academic schools. Just looked better w/ MU, Nebraska and A&M. WVU, KSU and Tech hurt them alot - though Tech and KSU have worked their asses off recently to get out of the lower tiers.
Quote from: Pakuni on February 20, 2013, 04:43:56 PM
FWIW ...
The SEC has eight schools in the US News top 100.
The Big 12 has three.
The (current) Big East has seven.
Big 10 has 11 ( ha ha, stupid Nebraska).
Pac 10 has eight.
The ACC has 11, including seven in the top 44.
I'm declaring the ACC the winner.
Resorted
Rank Conference US News Top 1001 ACC 11 (7 top 44)
2 B1G 11
3 tie Pac-12 8
3 tie SEC 8
5 Big East 7
6 Big 12 3
Ivy league anyone?
-went to school with idiots.
1. ACC
2. Pac-12
3. Big 10
4. Big XII
5. Big East
My son played Lacrosse at Middlebury which is in the NESCAC. I think these kids are true student-athletes.
I would rank these the same way today, but if anything the B1G gets even stronger with their additions. I'd put the SEC ahead of the Big East as well with Florida and Vanderbilt both AAU members.
BIG (almost every school is part of the Association of American Universities....plus they add Rutgers and Maryland with those credentials. Nebraska the only non AAU member) http://www.aau.edu/about/default.aspx?id=5476 More patents than any other conference in the nation, more research dollars, more noble laureates, etc, etc, etc.
ACC (losing Maryland AAU credential and adding Louisville...OUCH, but they do add AAU member Pitt)
Pac 12 (great at the top, not so great on the bottom)
Big 12 (Add West Virginia = ouch, lose AAU member Missouri = ouch)
Big East (zero schools in the AAU after Rutgers and Pitt leave until Tulane comes on board)
AAU is great and all, but it's not the end all say all (not saying anyone said it is). AAU is one way to gauge academic success, but not the only way.
For instance, both Boston College and Georgetown (both non-AAU) are both academically better than, say, Missouri. Gtown and BC are higher ranked by us world news and report, both are still research I schools, both have better Bschools, Law schools, and Gtown has a higher ranked med school
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on February 20, 2013, 05:44:27 PM
I would rank these the same way today, but if anything the B1G gets even stronger with their additions. I'd put the SEC ahead of the Big East as well with Florida and Vanderbilt both AAU members.
BIG (almost every school is part of the Association of American Universities....plus they add Rutgers and Maryland with those credentials. Nebraska the only non AAU member) http://www.aau.edu/about/default.aspx?id=5476 More patents than any other conference in the nation, more research dollars, more noble laureates, etc, etc, etc.
ACC (losing Maryland AAU credential and adding Louisville...OUCH, but they do add AAU member Pitt)
I'd suggest that the additions of Notre Dame and Syracuse do far more for the ACC's reputation than Rutgers and Maryland does for the Big ?
Membership in the AAU, while it undoubtedly makes its members feel good about themselves, says little about the quality of education one receives or, frankly, a school's reputation .
The fact that Kansas (#106 in US News), Oregon (#115) and Arizona (#120) are AAU members, but Notre Dame (#17), Georgetown (#21), Wake Forest (#27), Tufts (#28) and BC (#31) are deemed unworthy - and Syracuse is essentially forced out - ought to make one question the organization's standards.
And US News rankings are both about academic reputation and set the standard for academic reputation more than anything or anyone else.
I received a graduate degree from an AAU school and I have yet to figure out what the benefits were (are). The only people that talk about AAU and the CIC are sports fans and maybe some professors. In fact, Im guessing an overwhelming percentage of my classmates had no idea what those organizations are (a good percentage were foreign students).
I never heard a professor say to the class, "Thanks to the CIC/AAU...."
Quote from: ElDonBDon on February 20, 2013, 06:00:25 PM
AAU is great and all, but it's not the end all say all (not saying anyone said it is). AAU is one way to gauge academic success, but not the only way.
For instance, both Boston College and Georgetown (both non-AAU) are both academically better than, say, Missouri. Gtown and BC are higher ranked by us world news and report, both are still research I schools, both have better Bschools, Law schools, and Gtown has a higher ranked med school
Here, here. The AAU is an indication of a University's success in securing research grants. And university research has been a prime driver in innovation and creativity that has kept the US in the forefront on intellectual, technological, medical, and economic progress. But I would dare say an individual gets a far better education at Notre Dame, a non-AAU school, than almost all of the AAU schools.
I am not a big fan of the large state university. One son went to Middlebury and the other to Wazzu. As we looked at their coursework and the overall intellectual demands made of each there was no comparison. Both boys played varsity sports so there were similar demands made on their time outside the classroom. But the creativity of the learning, the immersion into an intellectually challenging environment, the high degree of individual, personal attention at Middlebury was beyond compare.
Wazzu, on the other hand, was much more of a factory that established a much different mean. The general population had lower qualifications than at Middlebury and the curricula reflected that. The largest class size for our son at Middlebury was 15. Our son at Wazzu regularly had huge lectures for his first few years. He did have tutorial support as an athlete but that isn't available to all students.
We did notice a difference in how their intellectual curiosity developed. Our oldest had a much broader range of interest and was genuinely conversant in many things while his brother did not grow in as many ways. Both played sports but it defined the football player to a far greater degree than it did the lacrosse athlete. Some of that was structural as a football player at Wazzu leads as much more insular existence than does a lacrosse player at Middlebury. Athlete's at Wazzu tend to herd together for a number of reasons beyond team identity - they live in their own housing, they eat at training table, they have mandatory weights, mandatory study hall, mandatory film, etc... Athletes at Middlebury are not segregated and are mixed in completely with the general student body.
Neither school has AAU accreditation but our daughter's does. How did that affect her education? Not in any way. I'll bet if you asked her about AAU accreditation she would ask what is that?
Quote from: ElDonBDon on February 20, 2013, 06:00:25 PM
AAU is great and all, but it's not the end all say all (not saying anyone said it is). AAU is one way to gauge academic success, but not the only way.
For instance, both Boston College and Georgetown (both non-AAU) are both academically better than, say, Missouri. Gtown and BC are higher ranked by us world news and report, both are still research I schools, both have better Bschools, Law schools, and Gtown has a higher ranked med school
The same can be said of US News. The difference is, one is a magazine that has made a cottage industry of this ranking system while the AAU is an elite organization with very few members and extremely difficult requirements to get in. BC better than Missouri...maybe....all depends on the what the criteria is.
Only 60 schools in the US are members of the AAU and they have no problem kicking schools out that don't meet their standards. When you consider most of the Ivy schools are in there, plus Stanford, Cal, MIT, Cal Tech, and the top Pac Twelve, Big Ten universities...well it's a who's who of American education. Been around since 1900. Did you know that more than 50% of the PHD's awarded each year in all of the U.S. come from AAU schools?
The question was about reputation, and like it or not the academic reputations are often driven by large research dollars, endowments, presence of law and medical schools, etc. An individual's education is ultimately up to them. Having attended two of these AAU schools (KU and IU) and one non-AAU school (Marquette), I can put tremendous value on all of them.
I wonder what it would look like if you ranked the conferences by dollars brought in by the school's research licensing. I heard somewhere during this whole restructuring fiasco that schools like Nwestern, Duke, UW, etc... all earn FAR FAR FAR more off of the rights they license out from their research divisions than they do off of athletics.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on February 20, 2013, 07:15:13 PM
The same can be said of US News. The difference is, one is a magazine that has made a cottage industry of this ranking system while the AAU is an elite organization with very few members and extremely difficult requirements to get in. BC better than Missouri...maybe....all depends on the what the criteria is.
Only 60 schools in the US are members of the AAU and they have no problem kicking schools out that don't meet their standards. When you consider most of the Ivy schools are in there, plus Stanford, Cal, MIT, Cal Tech, and the top Pac Twelve, Big Ten universities...well it's a who's who of American education. Been around since 1900. Did you know that more than 50% of the PHD's awarded each year in all of the U.S. come from AAU schools?
The question was about reputation, and like it or not the academic reputations are often driven by large research dollars, endowments, presence of law and medical schools, etc. An individual's education is ultimately up to them. Having attended two of these AAU schools (KU and IU) and one non-AAU school (Marquette), I can put tremendous value on all of them.
Geez Chico's, that reads like an AAU press release. Let's be honest ... while the AAU might have once been about lofty platitudes and the like, today it's little more than a lobbying organization that tries (successfully) to secure the lion's share of federal grant money for its members. The only reason they've booted members in recent history is because those members were securing enough, or the right kind, of grant money.
But yes, the issue is reputation. And while the US News rankings certainly has its flaws, the rankings are all about reputation. They're both largely based on reputation and they - to a far greater extent than the AAU - determine reputations. The single most important factor in the US News ranking is peer assessment ... what professors and administrators at other schools think of your school.
So, when a school like BC ranks 31st or ND 17th or G'Town 21st, it reflects the fact that people in the university fields believe they're
much better schools than IU at 83rd, Mizzou at 97th and Kansas at 109th (or MU at 83rd , for that matter) ... despite their AAU status, of which I'm sure they're well aware.
Remember, the question was about reputation.
One of our own Jesuits once said something to me along the lines of, "There is a qualitative difference between a Marquette graduate and a graduate from <Insert big state school name here>." He went on basically stating get your undergraduate education at a place like this and then go to a big research school for graduate programs.
I believe this to be quite true in more cases than not.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on February 20, 2013, 07:15:13 PM
The same can be said of US News. The difference is, one is a magazine that has made a cottage industry of this ranking system while the AAU is an elite organization with very few members and extremely difficult requirements to get in. BC better than Missouri...maybe....all depends on the what the criteria is.
Only 60 schools in the US are members of the AAU and they have no problem kicking schools out that don't meet their standards. When you consider most of the Ivy schools are in there, plus Stanford, Cal, MIT, Cal Tech, and the top Pac Twelve, Big Ten universities...well it's a who's who of American education. Been around since 1900. Did you know that more than 50% of the PHD's awarded each year in all of the U.S. come from AAU schools?
The question was about reputation, and like it or not the academic reputations are often driven by large research dollars, endowments, presence of law and medical schools, etc. An individual's education is ultimately up to them. Having attended two of these AAU schools (KU and IU) and one non-AAU school (Marquette), I can put tremendous value on all of them.
If money, geography, and course of study are not barriers and your child was accepted to one of these non-AAU members:
Bates, Middlebury, Amherst, Williams, Tufts, Dartmouth, Vassar or Swarthmore
And these AAU members:
Mizzou, SUNY Stony Brook, UC Irvine, UC Davis, UCSB, Colorado, SUNY Buffalo, Iowa State
from which list would you encourage your child to attend? Be honest.
Quote from: honkytonk on February 20, 2013, 06:16:49 PM
a good percentage were foreign students
You mean the guys who were in the library on Saturday nights?
The thing about athletic conferences is that academics don't matter.
Someone did this for football
http://m.outkickthecoverage.com/us-news-rankings-of-top-six-football-conferences.php
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on February 20, 2013, 09:31:13 PM
Someone did this for football
http://m.outkickthecoverage.com/us-news-rankings-of-top-six-football-conferences.php
Be careful with this list as they do NOT include the C7 in the BE and count Pitt and Syracuse in the ACC
ACC -- Average of 51.28. Duke
24. Virginia
27. Wake Forest
30. North Carolina
31. Boston College
36. Georgia Tech
44. Miami
58. Syracuse
58. Maryland
58. Pittsburgh
68. Clemson
72. Virginia Tech
97. Florida State
106. North Carolina State
Big Ten: Average of 57.512. Northwestern
29. Michigan
41. Wisconsin
46. Penn State
46. Illinois
56. Ohio State
65. Purdue
68. Minnesota
72. Michigan State
72. Iowa
83. Indiana
101. Nebraska
Pac 12: Average of 81.756. Stanford
21. Cal
24. UCLA
24. USC
46. Washington
97. Colorado
115. Oregon
120. Arizona
125. Utah
125. Washington State
139. Arizona State
139. Oregon State
SEC -- Average of 98.717. Vandy
54. Florida
63. Georgia
65. Texas A&M
77. Alabama
89. Auburn
97. Missouri
101. Tennessee
115. South Carolina
125. Kentucky
134. LSU
134. Arkansas
151. Ole Miss
160. Mississippi State
Big 12 -- average 113.146. Texas
77. Baylor
92. TCU
101. Iowa State
104. Oklahoma
106. Kansas
139. Kansas State
139. Oklahoma State
165. Texas Tech
165. West Virginia
Big East -- Average of 130.658. SMU
63. UConn
68. Rutgers
125. Temple
139. Cincinnati
160. Louisville
165. San Diego State
170. South Florida
174. Central Florida
184. Houston
Memphis (unranked)
Boise State (#62 regional western college)
To be fair Navy also isn't ranked and would likely be a top 25 caliber school.
Correct. Football only
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on February 20, 2013, 07:15:13 PM
The same can be said of US News. The difference is, one is a magazine that has made a cottage industry of this ranking system while the AAU is an elite organization with very few members and extremely difficult requirements to get in. BC better than Missouri...maybe....all depends on the what the criteria is.
Only 60 schools in the US are members of the AAU and they have no problem kicking schools out that don't meet their standards. When you consider most of the Ivy schools are in there, plus Stanford, Cal, MIT, Cal Tech, and the top Pac Twelve, Big Ten universities...well it's a who's who of American education. Been around since 1900. Did you know that more than 50% of the PHD's awarded each year in all of the U.S. come from AAU schools?
The question was about reputation, and like it or not the academic reputations are often driven by large research dollars, endowments, presence of law and medical schools, etc. An individual's education is ultimately up to them. Having attended two of these AAU schools (KU and IU) and one non-AAU school (Marquette), I can put tremendous value on all of them.
I know you drink the BiG kool-aid, but ACC is easily tops, SEC is clearly on the bottom (only Vanderbilt would be considered a top notch education). The AAU as others have said means they get research dollars, which means the graduate side/med school is solid, but the quality of the undergraduate education most often suffers with the research heavy focus.
Presidents of Universities may care about the AAU, but I can assure you academics do not. Would you rather send your kid to Dartmouth (not an AAU member) or UC-Santa Barbara (AAU member). Georgetown (not an AAU member) or University of Oregon. Wellesley (not an AAU member) or Case Western.
AAU is like Who's Who of American Universities. If you need to boast about it, your not really at the top.
Quote from: forgetful on February 20, 2013, 09:49:02 PM
I know you drink the BiG kool-aid, but ACC is easily tops, SEC is clearly on the bottom (only Vanderbilt would be considered a top notch education). The AAU as others have said means they get research dollars, which means the graduate side/med school is solid, but the quality of the undergraduate education most often suffers with the research heavy focus.
Presidents of Universities may care about the AAU, but I can assure you academics do not. Would you rather send your kid to Dartmouth (not an AAU member) or UC-Santa Barbara (AAU member). Georgetown (not an AAU member) or University of Oregon. Wellesley (not an AAU member) or Case Western.
AAU is like Who's Who of American Universities. If you need to boast about it, your not really at the top.
Easily tops...based on what criteria? I believe I said pretty clearly that an education, a good one, can be had anywhere. The question was reputation and part of that reputation is by the very academics that you admit put a high value on things like the AAU. There's a reason the club is exclusive. I agree, Georgetown is very good, ND, BC, etc. In many academic programs I would want my kid to go to a school over an AAU school. No argument from me...we agree. But on purely overall academic reputation, that's a bit different. The ACC is really good, I would have no problem putting them up there and maybe even switching them as 1 and the B1G as two, but the stats I stated haven't changed...most Nobel laureates, most research dollars, highest number of AAU schools, highest % of AAU schools, etc is all B1G.
As for the SEC, come on. Florida and Vandy very good schools. For those that keep bringing up US News, Florida and Vandy higher that 95% of Big East schools. When I see Big East listed 3rd here I'm thinking HOMER HOMER HOMER. Alabama, always rated higher than MU and most Big East schools. Auburn and Missouri, also both in the top 100. A bunch of Big East schools finishing below that if you want to use that source. Ultimately, go where you will do well, with a strong academic reputation and a strong field of study. You can succeed wherever you go. I work with guys from Duke, U of Chicago, UNC, Wisconsin, Stanford, Cal, Rice, etc, etc. My boss went to Tufts, my counterparts in my department went to Cornell and UCLA. Some really smart people...intimidating smart sometimes. Then again, there are also some folks that went to Cal State Northridge, or Fullerton or ASU and they are fantastic. It's all what you do with it and the effort you put into it.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on February 20, 2013, 10:49:07 PM
Easily tops...based on what criteria? I believe I said pretty clearly that an education, a good one, can be had anywhere. The question was reputation and part of that reputation is by the very academics that you admit put a high value on things like the AAU. There's a reason the club is exclusive. I agree, Georgetown is very good, ND, BC, etc. In many academic programs I would want my kid to go to a school over an AAU school. No argument from me...we agree. But on purely overall academic reputation, that's a bit different. The ACC is really good, I would have no problem putting them up there and maybe even switching them as 1 and the B1G as two, but the stats I stated haven't changed...most Nobel laureates, most research dollars, highest number of AAU schools, highest % of AAU schools, etc is all B1G.
As for the SEC, come on. Florida and Vandy very good schools. For those that keep bringing up US News, Florida and Vandy higher that 95% of Big East schools. When I see Big East listed 3rd here I'm thinking HOMER HOMER HOMER. Alabama, always rated higher than MU and most Big East schools. Auburn and Missouri, also both in the top 100. A bunch of Big East schools finishing below that if you want to use that source. Ultimately, go where you will do well, with a strong academic reputation and a strong field of study. You can succeed wherever you go. I work with guys from Duke, U of Chicago, UNC, Wisconsin, Stanford, Cal, Rice, etc, etc. My boss went to Tufts, my counterparts in my department went to Cornell and UCLA. Some really smart people...intimidating smart sometimes. Then again, there are also some folks that went to Cal State Northridge, or Fullerton or ASU and they are fantastic. It's all what you do with it and the effort you put into it.
I said academics "DO NOT Care", presidents do, but they are not academics at most universities. Florida is not a respected top Education. Its a decent school, but no where near elite. I never even heard of the AAU, except for the BiG making a big deal about it.
Quote from: keefe on February 20, 2013, 08:31:43 PM
If money, geography, and course of study are not barriers and your child was accepted to one of these non-AAU members:
Bates, Middlebury, Amherst, Williams, Tufts, Dartmouth, Vassar or Swarthmore
And these AAU members:
Mizzou, SUNY Stony Brook, UC Irvine, UC Davis, UCSB, Colorado, SUNY Buffalo, Iowa State
from which list would you encourage your child to attend? Be honest.
C'mon Chicos...answer the question!
Quote from: Pakuni on February 20, 2013, 08:23:01 PM
Geez Chico's, that reads like an AAU press release. Let's be honest ... while the AAU might have once been about lofty platitudes and the like, today it's little more than a lobbying organization that tries (successfully) to secure the lion's share of federal grant money for its members. The only reason they've booted members in recent history is because those members were securing enough, or the right kind, of grant money.
But yes, the issue is reputation. And while the US News rankings certainly has its flaws, the rankings are all about reputation. They're both largely based on reputation and they - to a far greater extent than the AAU - determine reputations. The single most important factor in the US News ranking is peer assessment ... what professors and administrators at other schools think of your school.
So, when a school like BC ranks 31st or ND 17th or G'Town 21st, it reflects the fact that people in the university fields believe they're much better schools than IU at 83rd, Mizzou at 97th and Kansas at 109th (or MU at 83rd , for that matter) ... despite their AAU status, of which I'm sure they're well aware.
Remember, the question was about reputation.
Fair points. I viewed it as academic reputation among academics...in other words, the very peers you are talking about. So from that point we start in the same place. However, I view US News as only partially taking an academics POV, it's not majority of the ranking, and maybe it shouldn't be. I'm not going to quibble over that. I look at the AAU and how schools fight to get into it and fight to stay into it as actions that speak loudly. I look at the membership, extremely strong.
Of course, there are also many other rankings and ultimately comes down to which sources one wishes to rely on. Take the ARWU (Academic Rankings of World Universities) as another ranking system. In ARWU Marquette is not in the top 500, yet MU is 83 in US News. There are wild swings to some of these rankings based on method, weighting, etc. One could use the Forbes rankings, the Gourman rankings, Princeton Review rankings, on and on. All kinds of academic rankings, some done by academics, some done by magazines with peer reviews as one component, some done by corporations. All kinds of reputations.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on February 20, 2013, 10:49:07 PM
When I see Big East listed 3rd here I'm thinking HOMER HOMER HOMER. Alabama, always rated higher than MU and most Big East schools. Auburn and Missouri, also both in the top 100. A bunch of Big East schools finishing below that if you want to use that source.
Nice statement ... too bad the facts do not support it.
Alabama is in a six way tie for 77th Next on the list is 83 which includes MU (and IU). So it is possible that Alabama is exactly one spot ahead of MU, hardly what I would call "always rated higher." It might not be next ranking later this year.
Auburn in 89 and Missouri in 97.
ND 17, GU 21, Syracuse 58, Pitt 58, Uconn 63, Rutgers 68 are ahead of Alabama. MU is essentially tied ... that makes 7 BE school tied or ahead of Alabama.
Nova is #1 for Regional Universities "North" PC is #4 ... not sure how that compares to the number 77 (or 83) on the national university list.
Now I know you will remind us you said "most of schools behind" but 7 are tied or ahead. Nova and PC might be ahead too ... that means most are actually ahead of Alabama.
Finally, I graduated with a BS in Finance and US News ranks the Finance program at MU #17 in the country.
Man, I am surprised that anyone on this board went to Marquette. After all the AAU rankings are paramount and of course Marquette has never been one of those prestigious universities. Like SUNY Stony Brook, SUNY Buffalo, UC Davis, UCSB, US Irvine, Missouri, Colorado, Rutgers, etc...
Hell, I went to the finest University in the Big 10 and never once heard of it until the debate about taking Nebraska. And even then I was not impressed.
Here is the litmus test for academic reputation - the hiring process. When I was in HK a Brit colleague from London called and asked if I would talk to the trailing spouse of a college mate who was with Jardine Fleming and being posted to HK. He faxed her CV over to me and it was filled with A levels and such. She even had her grammar school, The Alice Ottley School for Girls listed. I asked an English colleague to look it over which he did and he summarized by noting she went to University of Edinburgh and was therefore worth a look. We did hire her and she was outstanding. Bottom line - someone familiar with the rep of her alma mater concluded that alone meant she was worth meeting. Not once have I ever asked someone why they did or did not attend an AAU member school. Because people neither know nor care.
And I will say, if I see Dartmouth on a CV I sure as hell will want to see that candidate before I ever speak with SUNY Buffalo grad. Anybody who says otherwise is being...disingenuous.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on February 20, 2013, 10:49:07 PM
You can succeed wherever you go. It's all what you do with it and the effort you put into it.
Right on Chicos!
One of the most important comments ever made to me about college was by an engineer who went to Vanderbilt who made steel in Birmingham while in college during his summer break. He was a recent grad and a blue collar kid who said, "It doesn't matter where you go in... It is what you make of what you have..."
I work with a boatload of Northwestern, Illinois, University of Chicago and Domer grads. But the most consistently good top-to-bottom grads I've seen over my business career come from, of all places, Indiana University. They do a great job and based on experience, I've rarely seen a bad one. IU grads tend to have good heads on their shoulders, take their jobs and their colleagues seriously. They take what they have and run with it... hard!
Now if I want a supportive and loyal alumni network, which probably is more important than AAU membership anyway, I'd go to the service academies or Notre Dame. Nobody takes care of their grads better!
Quote from: keefe on February 21, 2013, 12:54:41 AM
Here is the litmus test for academic reputation - the hiring process.
This should be the alpha and omega for this discussion. For 99.9% of the students who are not going to research PhD programs, the only "academic rating" criterion that matters is "do I have a job."
Quote from: lawwarrior12 on February 21, 2013, 10:07:45 AM
This should be the alpha and omega for this discussion. For 99.9% of the students who are not going to research PhD programs, the only "academic rating" criterion that matters is "do I have a job."
True for the "professional degrees" like business and engineering. But what about the liberal arts degrees? If someone graduates with a degree in history, French or literature and then complains they cannot get a job and blames the university, who is really at fault?
1. Pac 12
2. Big 10
3. Big 12
4. ACC
5. Big East
6. Middle schools in America
7. Elementary schools in Canada
8. Kindergartens in Zimbabwe
9. The best "universities" in the DPRK
10. Le Cordon Bleu
11. A day care where they shake babies.
12. SEC
We have a winner!
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on February 20, 2013, 10:49:07 PM
Easily tops...based on what criteria? I believe I said pretty clearly that an education, a good one, can be had anywhere. The question was reputation and part of that reputation is by the very academics that you admit put a high value on things like the AAU. There's a reason the club is exclusive. I agree, Georgetown is very good, ND, BC, etc. In many academic programs I would want my kid to go to a school over an AAU school. No argument from me...we agree. But on purely overall academic reputation, that's a bit different. The ACC is really good, I would have no problem putting them up there and maybe even switching them as 1 and the B1G as two, but the stats I stated haven't changed...most Nobel laureates, most research dollars, highest number of AAU schools, highest % of AAU schools, etc is all B1G.
As for the SEC, come on. Florida and Vandy very good schools. For those that keep bringing up US News, Florida and Vandy higher that 95% of Big East schools. When I see Big East listed 3rd here I'm thinking HOMER HOMER HOMER. Alabama, always rated higher than MU and most Big East schools. Auburn and Missouri, also both in the top 100. A bunch of Big East schools finishing below that if you want to use that source. Ultimately, go where you will do well, with a strong academic reputation and a strong field of study. You can succeed wherever you go. I work with guys from Duke, U of Chicago, UNC, Wisconsin, Stanford, Cal, Rice, etc, etc. My boss went to Tufts, my counterparts in my department went to Cornell and UCLA. Some really smart people...intimidating smart sometimes. Then again, there are also some folks that went to Cal State Northridge, or Fullerton or ASU and they are fantastic. It's all what you do with it and the effort you put into it.
I totally forgot about the SEC. And yes, I'd put them above the Big East. Let's also add the Ivy League. My revised list:
1. Ivy League
2. ACC
3. Pac-12
4. Big 10
5. SEC
6. Big East
Quote from: forgetful on February 20, 2013, 11:18:14 PM
I said academics "DO NOT Care", presidents do, but they are not academics at most universities. Florida is not a respected top Education. Its a decent school, but no where near elite. I never even heard of the AAU, except for the BiG making a big deal about it.
I see, so you are the authority on the AAU and it's because you haven't even heard of it. Awesome. :) Many things in life we haven't heard of that are very important. Actually the Ivy League, Stanford, UCLA, Cal Tech, MIT, Texas, etc all put a big deal on it. And you are dead wrong about academics. The perks that go along with membership are big, both from a career point of view and dollars to fund their research grants. Academics absolutely care, in a big way. On Florida, show me a ranking where MU is ahead of Florida in academics? Or are you also saying MU isn't a respected education. ::)
Just a few examples
http://chronicle.com/article/As-AAU-Admits-Georgia-Tech-to/65200/
http://blogs.utexas.edu/towertalk/2012/10/25/the-importance-of-the-aau/
"In addition to the U.S. News and World Report, there is another ranking that is extremely important,
probably significantly more important. This is the Association of American Universities listing of the top U.S. research universities."
http://www2.ljworld.com/news/2012/sep/22/ku-should-be-concerned-about-aau-membership/
It was big enough for Michigan and Wisconsin to deny Nebraska (one of their own) membership continuation.
http://journalstar.com/news/local/education/emails-wisconsin-and-michigan-opposed-nebraska-s-aau-membership/article_19188dda-afe7-57c8-aa2c-c1939ec5acb4.html
From schools dying to get in but aren't
"perhaps the most elite organization in higher education. You'd probably be hard-pressed to find a major research university that didn't want to be a member of the AAU" - University of Connecticut
"the pre-eminent research-intensive membership group. To be a part of that organization is something N.C. State aspires to'"
"Dartmouth certainly would welcome an invitation to join the AAU," Dr. Kim wrote in response to an inquiry. "Our level and complexity of research activity and our commitment to research seem to us reflective of a leading institution."
Problem with the Pac 12 is the dregs at the bottom. ASU, Oregon State, Washington State, Utah, etc, really bring it down.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on February 21, 2013, 12:13:05 PM
Problem with the Pac 12 is the dregs at the bottom. ASU, Oregon State, Washington State, Utah, etc, really bring it down.
I see your point, but I think the elites at the top are so strong (Stanford...UCLA...USC...Cal...Washington), they make up for it.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on February 21, 2013, 12:10:37 PM
I see, so you are the authority on the AAU and it's because you haven't even heard of it. Awesome. :) Many things in life we haven't heard of that are very important. Actually the Ivy League, Stanford, UCLA, Cal Tech, MIT, Texas, etc all put a big deal on it. And you are dead wrong about academics. The perks that go along with membership are big, both from a career point of view and dollars to fund their research grants. Academics absolutely care, in a big way. On Florida, show me a ranking where MU is ahead of Florida in academics? Or are you also saying MU isn't a respected education. ::)
Just a few examples
http://chronicle.com/article/As-AAU-Admits-Georgia-Tech-to/65200/
http://blogs.utexas.edu/towertalk/2012/10/25/the-importance-of-the-aau/
"In addition to the U.S. News and World Report, there is another ranking that is extremely important, probably significantly more important. This is the Association of American Universities listing of the top U.S. research universities."
http://www2.ljworld.com/news/2012/sep/22/ku-should-be-concerned-about-aau-membership/
It was big enough for Michigan and Wisconsin to deny Nebraska (one of their own) membership continuation.
http://journalstar.com/news/local/education/emails-wisconsin-and-michigan-opposed-nebraska-s-aau-membership/article_19188dda-afe7-57c8-aa2c-c1939ec5acb4.html
From schools dying to get in but aren't
"perhaps the most elite organization in higher education. You'd probably be hard-pressed to find a major research university that didn't want to be a member of the AAU" - University of Connecticut
"the pre-eminent research-intensive membership group. To be a part of that organization is something N.C. State aspires to'"
"Dartmouth certainly would welcome an invitation to join the AAU," Dr. Kim wrote in response to an inquiry. "Our level and complexity of research activity and our commitment to research seem to us reflective of a leading institution."
Since this credential is so important why did you cheapen yourself and attend Marquette??
Quote from: keefe on February 21, 2013, 12:53:54 PM
Since this credential is so important why did you cheapen yourself and attend Marquette??
I think you missed his bigger point. You can get a wonderful education anywhere...if you're willing to put in the effort.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on February 21, 2013, 12:13:05 PM
Problem with the Pac 12 is the dregs at the bottom. ASU, Oregon State, Washington State, Utah, etc, really bring it down.
Our son, who was a Div I scholarship football player at Washington State, is now a medical student at the University of Michigan. I guess that makes his getting accepted to a leading medical program all the more impressive since he had to overcome having attended one of the "dregs at the bottom" of the Pac 12. That and the fact that Wazzu is not an AAU-member.
Again, Chico's, you're sort of missing the point about the AAU. It is important, but it's importance isn't a reflection of ALL its members academic quality/rigor. Rather, it's importance in that it serves both as a lobbyist and a lobbying tool to obtain the lion's share of federal research dollars. Despite representing only 61 schools, AAU members receive nearly 60 percent of all the federal grant money out there.
That's certainly a testament to their efforts. But it's also the primary reason universities want to be a part of it, because membership means significantly greater access to federal money. And despite ivory tower blah blah blah, universities want and need money like any other enterprise.
It's not because it puts a school among the academic elite. Certainly there are members that are elite, but there also are members that are quite mediocre. A simple reading of the membership makes this self-evident. Do you seriously dispute this?
Quote from: Pakuni on February 21, 2013, 01:24:08 PM
Again, Chico's, you're sort of missing the point about the AAU. It is important, but it's importance isn't a reflection of ALL its members academic quality/rigor. Rather, it's importance in that it serves both as a lobbyist and a lobbying tool to obtain the lion's share of federal research dollars. Despite representing only 61 schools, AAU members receive nearly 60 percent of all the federal grant money out there.
That's certainly a testament to their efforts. But it's also the primary reason universities want to be a part of it, because membership means significantly greater access to federal money. And despite ivory tower blah blah blah, universities want and need money like any other enterprise.
It's not because it puts a school among the academic elite. Certainly there are members that are elite, but there also are members that are quite mediocre. A simple reading of the membership makes this self-evident. Do you seriously dispute this?
Stated perfectly.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on February 21, 2013, 12:10:37 PM
I see, so you are the authority on the AAU and it's because you haven't even heard of it. Awesome. :) Many things in life we haven't heard of that are very important. Actually the Ivy League, Stanford, UCLA, Cal Tech, MIT, Texas, etc all put a big deal on it. And you are dead wrong about academics. The perks that go along with membership are big, both from a career point of view and dollars to fund their research grants. Academics absolutely care, in a big way. On Florida, show me a ranking where MU is ahead of Florida in academics? Or are you also saying MU isn't a respected education. ::)
See the problem is, I am an academic and with a quick poll, none of my peers have heard of it either. They even joked that it is like MENSA, that if you are actually good no one cares.
As I said, Presidents of Universities care, but they don't know academics. Guess what else. Others on here may also be important people that are in the know on certain things. Just because we don't all sit around constantly name dropping doesn't mean that they aren't important.
Actually, usually those that don't find the need to name drop are more important and don't suffer from inferiority complexes.
As for MU vs. Florida. All other things being equal, I would hire the MU kid over Florida. Not even a question. Most of my peers would say the same. Now if we are talking about graduate education it is a different story.
Quote from: AnotherMU84 on February 21, 2013, 11:29:27 AM
True for the "professional degrees" like business and engineering. But what about the liberal arts degrees? If someone graduates with a degree in history, French or literature and then complains they cannot get a job and blames the university, who is really at fault?
The liberal arts student is, for messing up his or her interview with 7-Eleven!
Quote from: AnotherMU84 on February 21, 2013, 11:29:27 AM
True for the "professional degrees" like business and engineering. But what about the liberal arts degrees? If someone graduates with a degree in history, French or literature and then complains they cannot get a job and blames the university, who is really at fault?
Actually, a significant number of people at HBS had liberal arts degrees. And they did just fine, even with the maths. In fact, in many ways, they brought creative, innovative approaches to case studies. And I dare say they are not struggling finding employment in the work place.
A liberal arts degree is a great foundation for not only success in graduate work but in life.
Quote from: keefe on February 21, 2013, 03:03:15 PM
Actually, a significant number of people at HBS had liberal arts degrees. And they did just fine, even with the maths. In fact, in many ways, they brought creative, innovative approaches to case studies. And I dare say they are not struggling finding employment in the work place.
A liberal arts degree is a great foundation for not only success in graduate work but in life.
Anyone that gets into the Harvard Business School is going to "do just fine" ... no other details are necessary.
I agree that liberal arts is a fantastic degree ... my HS senior daughter is planning on studying liberal arts this fall. If you do study liberal arts, hopefully it is with a plan in mind, like applying for law school or graduate (business/medical) school. This is a fine course of action. If, on the other hand, you plan on studying literature for 3 1/2 years and then walk into the placement office to see what's available, you're in trouble.