Will Buzz's loyalty to Junior hold this team back from reaching its' full potential this season? Don't get me wrong, I like Junior's toughness and love the fact that he is a leader and coach on the court. But how much longer can Buzz allow him to continue to play like he has in conference play? I know this won't happen, but, I would love to see Vander get more time at the point. He seems to already have a better capability of beating the press and he is a much better on-ball defender than Junior. By putting Vander at the point Mayo would get more time at SG, this is important IMO because he can stretch the court, opening up more space for Davante and Jamil. This also allows us to play much bigger on a regular basis, without losing any athleticism. I think this not only would help MU reach another sweet 16, but it also would help Vander's pro potential significantly. As I see it Vander is following in the footsteps of McNeal and DJO, great college SG's but undersized to play the 2 in the NBA, we have seen both McNeal and DJO try to reinvent themselves into PG's just to have a shot at the NBA. I think it is in Vander and the teams best interest for him to develop into a PG now.
Agree 100%
I don't think Blue is particularly good at passing through a zone press. End of Pitt game he had 2 turnovers and had one today when seton hall pressed. Also, I think Vander is a much better point than DJO and McNeal. Westbrook played the 2 at UCLA and converted pretty easily. I don't think it really matters if he played point at MU but I see what you are saying.
Will Buzz's loyalty affect Jr's playing time. Of course. We have to just hope Jr does good because he is Buzz's guy and that won't change. Jr has been the starting pg on the last two sweet sixteen teams and has carried MU through some of their tougher games this year.
Quote from: BenCat12 on February 19, 2013, 10:51:35 PM
Will Buzz's loyalty to Junior hold this team back from reaching its' full potential this season? Don't get me wrong, I like Junior's toughness and love the fact that he is a leader and coach on the court. But how much longer can Buzz allow him to continue to play like he has in conference play? I know this won't happen, but, I would love to see Vander get more time at the point. He seems to already have a better capability of beating the press and he is a much better on-ball defender than Junior. By putting Vander at the point Mayo would get more time at SG, this is important IMO because he can stretch the court, opening up more space for Davante and Jamil. This also allows us to play much bigger on a regular basis, without losing any athleticism. I think this not only would help MU reach another sweet 16, but it also would help Vander's pro potential significantly. As I see it Vander is following in the footsteps of McNeal and DJO, great college SG's but undersized to play the 2 in the NBA, we have seen both McNeal and DJO try to reinvent themselves into PG's just to have a shot at the NBA. I think it is in Vander and the teams best interest for him to develop into a PG now.
Agree with the majority of this.
But while Vander may be undersized for an NBA shooting guard, he is 6'4. Mcneal and DJO were closer to 6'1
Quote from: MARQ_13 on February 19, 2013, 11:00:02 PM
I don't think Blue is particularly good at passing through a zone press. End of Pitt game he had 2 turnovers and had one today when seton hall pressed. Also, I think Vander is a much better point than DJO and McNeal. Westbrook played the 2 at UCLA and converted pretty easily. I don't think it really matters if he played point at MU but I see what you are saying.
Will Buzz's loyalty affect Jr's playing time. Of course. We have to just hope Jr does good because he is Buzz's guy and that won't change. Jr has been the starting pg on the last two sweet sixteen teams and has carried MU through some of their tougher games this year.
With all due respect to Vander, he is not Russell Westbrook. I was talking more about Vander's ability to dribble through pressure compared to Junior. Junior just does not have the speed, size or athleticism to handle pressure (see every Louisville game in Junior's career) like Vander does.
The game log stats from ESPN don't agree with you in regard to Junior carrying MU through some of their tougher games.
http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/player/gamelog/_/id/45570/junior-cadougan
Quote from: MUEagle1090 on February 19, 2013, 11:03:17 PM
Agree with the majority of this.
But while Vander may be undersized for an NBA shooting guard, he is 6'4. Mcneal and DJO were closer to 6'1
I never know what to believe when it comes to players height. Crowder was listed at 6'6'' at MU, NBA comine had him at 6'4 3/4. McNeal is list at 6'3 and DJO was listed at 6'2" Vander at 6'4".........eithier way I understand your point.
As frustrating as Junior can be, you have to roll with him. Moving Vander to the point right now is a major mistake. Blue is in a great groove currently playing out on the wing. I wouldn't do anything to disturb that. It could be a classic case in trying to fix one problem, all you end up doing is creating more issues.
Also, if you do move Van to the point, who gets Junior minutes? Todd Mayo? He's been more inconsistent than Junior. What has he shown this season to warrant such a move?
Quote from: RJax55 on February 19, 2013, 11:37:15 PM
As frustrating as Junior can be, you have to roll with him. Moving Vander to the point right now is a major mistake. Blue is in a great groove currently playing out on the wing. I wouldn't do anything to disturb that. It could be a classic case in trying to fix one problem, all you end up doing is creating more issues.
Also, if you do move Van to the point, who gets Junior minutes? Todd Mayo? He's been more inconsistent than Junior. What has he shown this season to warrant such a move?
Junior is our best PG. By a mile. He needs to play.
While Junior comes with limitations and frustrations, nothing I have seen of this team with him on the bench makes me want to see him spend more time on the bench. Mayo has been incredibly inconsistent since his return. I haven't seen anything that makes me believe the team is better without Junior.
VB at PG makes us a better team IMO. Not going to fault Buzz and his loyalty but that makes Buzz what he is. Vander can push the ball and speed up the game much better than Jr.. Disappointed that Blue is not PG but Buzz is the man.
Quote from: RJax55 on February 19, 2013, 11:37:15 PM
As frustrating as Junior can be, you have to roll with him. Moving Vander to the point right now is a major mistake. Blue is in a great groove currently playing out on the wing. I wouldn't do anything to disturb that. It could be a classic case in trying to fix one problem, all you end up doing is creating more issues.
Also, if you do move Van to the point, who gets Junior minutes? Todd Mayo? He's been more inconsistent than Junior. What has he shown this season to warrant such a move?
+1
With 5 regular season games left this year, it not the time for such major retooling. Especially with a first place team. Vander will get time at the point next year.
It's not a crazy thought to put VB at point at Mayo at SG, but Mayo would have to be shredding practice and playing great in games in order to force this move.
I haven't seen that yet, so at this point, Junior + Vander (at their natural positions) is still better than Vander and Mayo (with Vander playing a new position).
Tough season for Todd. Hope he finishes strong.
I'll trust the sweater wearing guy who has this team
at 19-6, 10-3, at first place, in the Big East to coach
the team, vs. internet message board commenters.
Quote from: BenCat12 on February 19, 2013, 10:51:35 PM
Will Buzz's loyalty to Junior hold this team back from reaching its' full potential this season? Don't get me wrong, I like Junior's toughness and love the fact that he is a leader and coach on the court. But how much longer can Buzz allow him to continue to play like he has in conference play? I know this won't happen, but, I would love to see Vander get more time at the point. He seems to already have a better capability of beating the press and he is a much better on-ball defender than Junior. By putting Vander at the point Mayo would get more time at SG, this is important IMO because he can stretch the court, opening up more space for Davante and Jamil. This also allows us to play much bigger on a regular basis, without losing any athleticism.
We talking about the same Mayo who committed a massively dumb intentional foul and got yanked off the court for the rest of the game yesterday?
Quote from: lab_warrior on February 20, 2013, 07:14:07 AM
I'll trust the sweater wearing guy who has this team
at 19-6, 10-3, at first place, in the Big East to coach
the team, vs. internet message board commenters.
Amen. Junior has to be the man. Vander has enough responsibility carrying the offense at various points of the game, and DWill cannot get into the lane the way JC can.
Quote from: lab_warrior on February 20, 2013, 07:14:07 AM
I'll trust the sweater wearing guy who has this team
at 19-6, 10-3, at first place, in the Big East to coach
the team, vs. internet message board commenters.
We have a winner, Buzz knows the team better than anyone. I trust him!
What are you people thinking; vander finally looks like he's in a groove ( hopefully that will become his new normal and not just a fluctuation ) and you want to start messing with that and have him play point?? Give me a break. Cadougan and Derek Wilson are working just fine at point. Their combined numbers are more than adequate for a college 1 spot; and, as we've seen much of over the last two years; cadougan can and will win us a game or two again IF some of are other options on O are coming up short. He just needs to wait until buzz says go at it to do it. I for one saw MU clear out and seton hall obliged by sending defenders to a side/perimeter that would have allowed junior free range one on one to drive with a shield out by a big man down low. He should have exploited that a but yesterday because no one on here can reasonably bash his quickness/finishing at the hoop.
Leave Junior at the point. If Junior got hurt and was out for an extended period of time, I can see giving Vander some minutes at the point. Beyond that, dance with who brung ya.
Quote from: CAGASS24 on February 20, 2013, 07:50:45 AM
What are you people thinking; vander finally looks like he's in a groove ( hopefully that will become his new normal and not just a fluctuation ) and you want to start messing with that and have him play point?? Give me a break. Cadougan and Derek Wilson are working just fine at point. Their combined numbers are more than adequate for a college 1 spot; and, as we've seen much of over the last two years; cadougan can and will win us a game or two again IF some of are other options on O are coming up short. He just needs to wait until buzz says go at it to do it. I for one saw MU clear out and seton hall obliged by sending defenders to a side/perimeter that would have allowed junior free range one on one to drive with a shield out by a big man down low. He should have exploited that a but yesterday because no one on here can reasonably bash his quickness/finishing at the hoop.
+1,000,000
To quote Buzz from last year's NCAA post-game - I'm rollin' with y'all!
You can't, at this point, start experimenting w/PG and Vander/Junior. Yes, Junior may be frustrating and he's not a go-to scorer. But this team has dramatically overachieved so far, they are clicking really well, everyone is in a groove and knows their roles. While Junior doesn't get 14ppg, he's still the starting PG. Period.
Things are working well, not need to mess with success. In Buzz we trust.
Having said all that I love seeing CO and DG on the court together for zone defenses. Add JW or ST Jr to the front line and you have the biggest, perhaps most effective wall of Warriors on the baseline since Bo, Toone and Whitehead put up their hands in front of UNC at the 77 Championship game where no one got inside when it mattered.
Yeah, this should be a separate topic.
Vander is a good ball handler, but he is not a point guard.
I've been a proponent of Blue playing some PG, pretty much as long as he's been here, but I see little to gain by making any sort of significant change now.
MU scores enough. They win by shooting FGs and FTs very well, and defending and rebounding. I believe their somewhat inevitable undoing in March, will be due to 3pt shooting and maybe to a lesser extent, turnovers. While it could help a little, I don't see turning PG duties over to Blue having a significant impact on those, at least not one that justifies the risk.
Nothing you do now but stick with what's gotten you this far. Just remind Junior that he's got 7-14 games left in his career, and he goes a long way in determining whether it's closer to the high end or low end.
Quote from: NavinRJohnson on February 20, 2013, 08:55:13 AM
I've been a proponent of Blue playing some PG, pretty much as long as he's been here, but I see little to gain by making any sort of significant change now.
MU scores enough. They win by shooting FGs and FTs very well, and defending and rebounding. I believe their somewhat inevitable undoing in March, will be due to 3pt shooting and maybe to a lesser extent, turnovers. While it could help a little, I don't see turning PG duties over to Blue having a significant impact on those, at least not one that justifies the risk.
I agree with you 100%.
IF Todd Mayo was shooting some ungodly % from 3pt., I think you could consider the change because it would address a major area of weakness (shooting).
But, at this point, Todd isn't doing that, so essentially swapping him for Junior doesn't really make MU any better, and it could limit Vander's production.
Interestingly enough, if Vander can play point for 10min. per game, next year's rotation gets very interesting.
Vander
Todd (or Jujuan)
Juan
Jamil
Otule
Second Unit
Der. Wilson (come in early and slides Vander to the 2G)
Jujuan (or Todd)
SF (Burton/Ferguson or possibly Mayo)
Steve Taylor
Gardner
That's a pretty nice 10 man mix, and you still have to find some time for Du. Wilson. I think 1 of the Frosh. will earn significant minutes (15+), at this point, I guess I'm assuming it's Johnson, but I have no idea. The others will probably earn Steve Taylor type minutes.
Super deep. I'd love to see Buzz press a little more and try to wear some teams out.
Quote from: RJax55 on February 19, 2013, 11:37:15 PM
As frustrating as Junior can be, you have to roll with him. Moving Vander to the point right now is a major mistake. Blue is in a great groove currently playing out on the wing. I wouldn't do anything to disturb that. It could be a classic case in trying to fix one problem, all you end up doing is creating more issues.
Also, if you do move Van to the point, who gets Junior minutes? Todd Mayo? He's been more inconsistent than Junior. What has he shown this season to warrant such a move?
Agree with your reasoning.
I don't like Cadougan now and never really have over his career. Too many poor decisions for my liking but with two weeks left in your season you don't pull the kid if only for the reason you list above about screwing with Vander. Blue plays like this for the next fortnight and Marquette is looking at 14-4 and a possible title. That leads to POY for him.
If it ain't broke...
So let me get this straight. People are seriously advocating the following:
**Taking MU's leading scorer, who is finally living up to people's expectations, and moving him from a position in which he has thrived, to point guard.
**Sitting MU's current point guard who has been a solid three year player, and while he certainly hasn't lived up to his lofty expectations, is a solid point guard.
**And in his place, playing a player who is scoring less...shooting worse...missed half the year due to suspension...and coming off a simply terrible game yesterday.
**All for a team that is 19-6 (10-3), ranked, and pretty much exceeding everyone's expectations.
Brilliant plan.
Quote from: TinyTim on February 20, 2013, 09:20:50 AM
So let me get this straight. People are seriously advocating the following:
**Taking MU's leading scorer, who is finally living up to people's expectations, and moving him from a position in which he has thrived, to point guard.
**Sitting MU's current point guard who has been a solid three year player, and while he certainly hasn't lived up to his lofty expectations, is a solid point guard.
**And in his place, playing a player who is scoring less...shooting worse...missed half the year due to suspension...and coming off a simply terrible game yesterday.
**All for a team that is 19-6 (10-3), ranked, and pretty much exceeding everyone's expectations.
Brilliant plan.
Applause.
For a first post, that is some quick learnin'! Nice work.
Quote from: BenCat12 on February 19, 2013, 10:51:35 PM
Will Buzz's loyalty to Junior hold this team back from reaching its' full potential this season? Don't get me wrong, I like Junior's toughness and love the fact that he is a leader and coach on the court. But how much longer can Buzz allow him to continue to play like he has in conference play? I know this won't happen, but, I would love to see Vander get more time at the point. He seems to already have a better capability of beating the press and he is a much better on-ball defender than Junior. By putting Vander at the point Mayo would get more time at SG, this is important IMO because he can stretch the court, opening up more space for Davante and Jamil. This also allows us to play much bigger on a regular basis, without losing any athleticism. I think this not only would help MU reach another sweet 16, but it also would help Vander's pro potential significantly. As I see it Vander is following in the footsteps of McNeal and DJO, great college SG's but undersized to play the 2 in the NBA, we have seen both McNeal and DJO try to reinvent themselves into PG's just to have a shot at the NBA. I think it is in Vander and the teams best interest for him to develop into a PG now.
First off, Junior is a better point guard then Mayo is at the three currently and Blue is doing great at the two. Let's look at the misperceptions in your statement.
1. Mayo can stretch the court. Mayo is currently shooting 31% from three point. He has only made 4 more threes than Cadougan on as many attempts. Last year he shot 33.3%. He isn't exactly stretching the floor with that shooting percentage and he chucks it up there every five minutes on average. In comparison Blue who is shooting an equivalent percentage only shoots once every 8 minutes.
2. Mayo is also a better 3 than Lockett is currently. Lockett currently avgs more points, blocks, steals, rebounds per game.
3. Mayo deserves the playing time. He was out all of first semester, hasn't shown Buzz he deserves the time in practice, and while in has made bad decisions.
Quote from: Guns n Ammo on February 20, 2013, 09:12:52 AM
I agree with you 100%.
IF Todd Mayo was shooting some ungodly % from 3pt., I think you could consider the change because it would address a major area of weakness (shooting).
But, at this point, Todd isn't doing that, so essentially swapping him for Junior doesn't really make MU any better, and it could limit Vander's production.
Interestingly enough, if Vander can play point for 10min. per game, next year's rotation gets very interesting.
Vander
Todd (or Jujuan)
Juan
Jamil
Otule
Second Unit
Der. Wilson (come in early and slides Vander to the 2G)
Jujuan (or Todd)
SF (Burton/Ferguson or possibly Mayo)
Steve Taylor
Gardner
That's a pretty nice 10 man mix, and you still have to find some time for Du. Wilson. I think 1 of the Frosh. will earn significant minutes (15+), at this point, I guess I'm assuming it's Johnson, but I have no idea. The others will probably earn Steve Taylor type minutes.
Super deep. I'd love to see Buzz press a little more and try to wear some teams out.
And you know what is also great about this???? That is a very deep team you listed, and you completely forgot about Jameel McKay!
Don't mess with happy.
I think Buzz would sooner start Derrick than Vander at the point. He's mentioned that only his loyalty to Junior has kept Derrick out of the starting lineup a few times this year.
Frankly, I think Junior - despite some minor ups/downs - has been good at the point.
Quote from: lab_warrior on February 20, 2013, 07:14:07 AM
I'll trust the sweater wearing guy who has this team
at 19-6, 10-3, at first place, in the Big East to coach
the team, vs. internet message board commenters.
Moderator! Moderator! Are we going to let this kind of reasonable, pragmatic, common-sense baloney infect our message board?!?!?!?!
Quote from: MU82 on February 20, 2013, 09:55:08 AM
Moderator! Moderator! Are we going to let this kind of reasonable, pragmatic, common-sense baloney infect our message board?!?!?!?!
I disagree. I hate when people decide that a topic isn't worth discussing because no one in the conversation is the coach. Obviously Buzz is in charge and we collectively are not qualified to do his job in the real world. But this is a sports message board - the whole point is to have these discussions.
That being said, I agree it's a silly idea to change PG with 5 games remaining.
I don't want Blue playing point this year. His role is defined and he is excelling in that role. He has actually taken his game to yet another level from earlier this year. Vander right now is a scorer not a distributor. He knows what is a good shot for him and what is a bad shot. If you have him play point now, it messes with his role and that could really derail this team at a time when you need to be fine-tuning your team.
Plus, wasn't it Vander who had the ball at the end of the first half, got caught in the air, threw the ball away and Seton Hall came down and hit a 3 to take our lead down to 2?