MUScoop

Spurned by a twitter debate of a few MU fans.  Who is the best?

Hey, I answered, but still think the "What is your favorite song played by the Marquette Band?" poll is better.  WAY MORE IMPORTANT--SUPER-DUPER IMPORTANT.

Quote from: lab_warrior on February 09, 2013, 03:10:13 PM
Hey, I answered, but still think the "What is your favorite song played by the Marquette Band?" poll is better.  WAY MORE IMPORTANT--SUPER-DUPER IMPORTANT.

Im sorry but our band sucks. Ooops, I mean, is not very good.

Blue

Vander and it is not as close as this poll

Vander, though it was hard for me to hit the keyboard properly to vote because I was laughing too hard thinking of the 3 folks who picked Mayo.

Vander.

But the adage remains true: "as goes Junior, so goes MU."

Quote from: 77ncaachamps on February 11, 2013, 01:03:04 AM
Vander.

But the adage remains true: "as goes Junior, so goes MU."

100% correct. Marquette has been blessed with great PGs but, other than the 2004-05 Diener broken hand, no other Marquette team has been so dependent on its PG.

Just a few stats, because the results of this poll really surprise me.

ORtg / Usage / Net Points Added
Gardner (124 / 27% / 86)
Blue (106 / 24% / 36)

Gardner is more efficient with more possessions, and his net points contributions are over double Blue's. Plus, he's more consistent. Gardner has had 2.5 bad games this year (Florida, Louisville, and USF) and that's it. Gardner is nationally ranked at defensive rebounding and blocked shots percentages. In fact, he's nationally ranked in seven categories vs three for Blue.

From my perspective, it's Gardner and not even close.

Why would this even be a debate?

Crazy how much a year has changed everyone's opinion about Van lol. It would be great to see another player so drastically improve over an offseason. Derrick Wilson could be that guy, maybe learn to make a jump shot or a free throw!

I saw that crap about Junior on the paint touches twitter during the game on Saturday.  They must have gotten their account credentials stolen.

Quote from: Warrior's Path on February 11, 2013, 09:27:17 AM
Just a few stats, because the results of this poll really surprise me.

ORtg / Usage / Net Points Added
Gardner (124 / 27% / 86)
Blue (106 / 24% / 36)

Gardner is more efficient with more possessions, and his net points contributions are over double Blue's. Plus, he's more consistent. Gardner has had 2.5 bad games this year (Florida, Louisville, and USF) and that's it. Gardner is nationally ranked at defensive rebounding and blocked shots percentages. In fact, he's nationally ranked in seven categories vs three for Blue.

From my perspective, it's Gardner and not even close.

The question wasn't best offensive player.

Quote from: Warrior's Path on February 11, 2013, 09:27:17 AM
Just a few stats, because the results of this poll really surprise me.

ORtg / Usage / Net Points Added
Gardner (124 / 27% / 86)
Blue (106 / 24% / 36)

Gardner is more efficient with more possessions, and his net points contributions are over double Blue's. Plus, he's more consistent. Gardner has had 2.5 bad games this year (Florida, Louisville, and USF) and that's it. Gardner is nationally ranked at defensive rebounding and blocked shots percentages. In fact, he's nationally ranked in seven categories vs three for Blue.

From my perspective, it's Gardner and not even close.

This just shows how deceptive stats can be.

Blue has so much more responsibility than Gardner does. Blue has the ball a lot. Blue has to defend good perimeter players. Blue plays darn near the entire game, meaning he has to play tired. Blue doesn't come out of games in defense-for-offense substitutions.

One could make an argument that Davante has been MU's best player, even though I'd contend that is a losing argument. To contend "it's not even close" is one of the goofier things to appear on Scoop in some time. And I really, really like what Davante brings.

Wait ... I take that back. It really isn't even close -- that's how much more Blue deserves the "best player" designation than Gardner does. As I write this, Vander has 130 votes to Davante's 13. I don't think 91 percent of those 143 voters are wrong.

Quote from: MU82 on February 11, 2013, 10:43:15 AM
This just shows how deceptive stats can be.

Blue has so much more responsibility than Gardner does. Blue has the ball a lot. Blue has to defend good perimeter players. Blue plays darn near the entire game, meaning he has to play tired. Blue doesn't come out of games in defense-for-offense substitutions.

One could make an argument that Davante has been MU's best player, even though I'd contend that is a losing argument. To contend "it's not even close" is one of the goofier things to appear on Scoop in some time. And I really, really like what Davante brings.

Wait ... I take that back. It really isn't even close -- that's how much more Blue deserves the "best player" designation than Gardner does.

hear hear.

Quote from: Warrior's Path on February 11, 2013, 09:27:17 AM
Just a few stats, because the results of this poll really surprise me.

ORtg / Usage / Net Points Added
Gardner (124 / 27% / 86)
Blue (106 / 24% / 36)

Gardner is more efficient with more possessions, and his net points contributions are over double Blue's. Plus, he's more consistent. Gardner has had 2.5 bad games this year (Florida, Louisville, and USF) and that's it. Gardner is nationally ranked at defensive rebounding and blocked shots percentages. In fact, he's nationally ranked in seven categories vs three for Blue.

From my perspective, it's Gardner and not even close.

The question wasn't who is most efficient on offense, it was who is our best player. Which is why it's Vander and the poll isn't even close. He plays 12 more mpg and while Davante has improved, Vander is still a far better defender.

If Davante starts averaging 28+ mpg and defending at a level close to Otule, it'd be a discussion worth having. But as good as he is (and I think he's Big East Sixth Man of the Year good) he simply doesn't provide enough night-in and night-out to be considered a better all-around player than Vander.

Quote from: MUEagle1090 on February 11, 2013, 10:41:30 AM
The question wasn't best offensive player.

Maybe that's why I put in the comments about defensive rebounding and blocked shots.

I am surprised the poll was even started and more surprised that VB does not have 99% of the vote. Everybody loves Gardner but not even close to matching VB's value this season.

More valuable: Gardner or Cadougan would be a much better debate.

Quote from: Skatastrophy on February 11, 2013, 10:33:06 AM
I saw that crap about Junior on the paint touches twitter during the game on Saturday.  They must have gotten their account credentials stolen.

Paint Touches with a poor opinion of player worth/evaluation? That's preposterous!

Vander Blue.  He has really stepped up his game this year and has proven that he can dominate when he wants to or when needed.  Hope he continues to play aggressive.

Quote from: Warrior's Path on February 11, 2013, 10:46:11 AM
Maybe that's why I put in the comments about defensive rebounding and blocked shots.

Fair enough.

But since I don't want to make this thread repetitive, a few posters above gave many reasons why Blue is better. With improved conditioning Gardner could make this a real debate.

I was waiting for the haters.

A few points

• How is MU winning games this year. Is it more offense or defense?
• What are MU's strengths and weaknesses? Perimeter based or interior based?
• My perspective is not based only on offense. Gardner defensive rebounds, blocks shots, and steals the ball, and last I checked, those were all defensive stats. The "Net Points" contributions looks at a player's impact on both offense and defense.

From my perspective, MU has the #1 offense in the BIG EAST, and they're doing it with the #1 two-pt%, the #2 FTR, the #2 FT%, the #4 offensive rebounding percentage, and the #5 turnover rate. Defensively, they have the #4 two-pt%, the #6 FTR, and the #7 Def Reb%. Except for the defensive free throw rate and maybe turnover rate, I could make the argument that the best contributor in every single category listed is Gardner.

I understand that Gardner plays limited minutes, but he is so damn good in those limited minutes and the key factor in each of the areas where Marquette is doing well. I was just surprised that Blue was running away with the poll when the numbers say otherwise. At the least, I expected that it'd be a lot closer.

At the heart of it, this is just a silly internet/bar argument anyway.

Well, I voted Vander.  But you are making me think about it. 

I think the only thing that holds Davante back IMO is that he only plays 20.6 mpg versus 32.6 for Vander.  Now yes it could be argued that he is better in his 20 minutes than Vander is in his 32...but at some point sheer volume has to count for something.

If they were closer in minutes, I would be more persuaded by your argument.

Gardner sure gets big time love on here. I like him but do not hold him anywhere near the level some on here do. He has been MIA for awhile, liability on D and badly out of shape. While many are disappointed with Jamil not living up to expectations I think many over value Gardner because he exceeds expectations. I am not a Jr. fan but would vote for him over Gardner in this poll.

Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on February 11, 2013, 11:29:21 AM
Well, I voted Vander.  But you are making me think about it. 

I think the only thing that holds Davante back IMO is that he only plays 20.6 mpg versus 32.6 for Vander.  Now yes it could be argued that he is better in his 20 minutes than Vander is in his 32...but at some point sheer volume has to count for something.

If they were closer in minutes, I would be more persuaded by your argument.

This is exactly it.

Vander is the best player on our team because of the amount of responsibility he has.

Gardner could be the best 6th man in the country.  He's gotta be top 5.  It's just impossible to extrapolate how impactful DG would be if he were playing 35+ minutes a game, and there's a reason he *does not* play that much *ever.*

Quote from: Warrior's Path on February 11, 2013, 11:23:54 AM
I was waiting for the haters.

A few points

• How is MU winning games this year. Is it more offense or defense?
• What are MU's strengths and weaknesses? Perimeter based or interior based?
• My perspective is not based only on offense. Gardner defensive rebounds, blocks shots, and steals the ball, and last I checked, those were all defensive stats. The "Net Points" contributions looks at a player's impact on both offense and defense.

From my perspective, MU has the #1 offense in the BIG EAST, and they're doing it with the #1 two-pt%, the #2 FTR, the #2 FT%, the #4 offensive rebounding percentage, and the #5 turnover rate. Defensively, they have the #4 two-pt%, the #6 FTR, and the #7 Def Reb%. Except for the defensive free throw rate and maybe turnover rate, I could make the argument that the best contributor in every single category listed is Gardner.

I understand that Gardner plays limited minutes, but he is so damn good in those limited minutes and the key factor in each of the areas where Marquette is doing well. I was just surprised that Blue was running away with the poll when the numbers say otherwise. At the least, I expected that it'd be a lot closer.

At the heart of it, this is just a silly internet/bar argument anyway.

How do you figure MU has the #1 offense in the BE?