Not sure if you guys saw this, but US News released its 2008 rankings today, last year Marquette was at 81 now we're at 82, behind the likes of the Colorado School of Mines and tied with SLU--I'm beginning to agree with the colleges who are boycotting the rankings that they are complete BS does a $51 million donation, the best incoming class in Marquette history, and the lowest admission rate in years drop us a spot? I know a portion of it's based on reputation, but even then. Thoughts? Is this a big deal, or can we all agree that US News can shove it, and that Marquette is headed in the right direction?
http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/usnews/edu/college/rankings/brief/t1natudoc_brief.php
These rankings are way overemphasized when comparing schools and I question the methology of these rankings to be frank. I think too many people put too much weight into these kinds of things and to be honest it's just one publications opinion and shouldn't be considered the standard which it unfortunately is in most cases.
But overall, even falling one spot means nothing...just think of the hundreds of other universities out there that aren't even in the top 100.
Keep in mind this was the first year they rated the service academies so the numbers get skewed a bit. Also, we have trailed SLU for sometime, nice to finally catch them.
In 2001 we were 91st, now were are 82. In 2001 Madison was 32, they are now 38.
I like the direction we are going vs them.
its really not to different from the basketball rankings. who cares what your ranking is anyways? the fact that MU is in the top 100 is enough to lure in prospective students in order to keep making each class the most competitive marquette has ever had, a trend which has been in place for about 4 or 5 years now. MU was looking at the same ranking as last year but u.s. news gave a demerit because of the new logo :)
Quote from: MarqGold17 on August 17, 2007, 10:08:59 AM
Is this a big deal, or can we all agree that US News can shove it, and that Marquette is headed in the right direction?
Ask yourself these questions: 1) When was the last time you read US News & World Report for something other than the rankings? 2) If you were a high school senior and you got a full ride to Colorado School of Mines or Marquette, where would you go?
I wouldn't make too much of these rankings. I don't remember school rankings being a factor at all in my college decision. And I'm glad they didn't. Otherwise I'd have a Colorado School of Mines degree instead of a Marquette degree.
I think the ranks only really have any influence when it comes to the individual programs within the school, ie engineering or business. Those have some influence but I don't know the overall score ranking does anything other than eliminate some colleges you weren't even looking hard at anyway. I only looked at top 100 schools when I was looking in 1999, luckily Marquette had just tucked in at 95 if I remember correctly. :)
That really depends colorado school of Mines is one of the best engineering schools in the country. I have worked with dozens of high level engineers working for prestigous fortune 500 capital equipment manufacturers, ie Cat, Joh Deere, GE, CArrier, Sikorsky/UTX, IR, and on and on never met one from MU. Not knocking MU, but If i was wanting to go to one of the best engineering schools in the US I might be compelled to go to colorado. Not saying the Mu school is a slouch, just saying CSM is a great school and if engineering was abig deal and maybe I like to ski or something it might not be so clear cut as the poster insinuated.
Quote from: Harrison on August 17, 2007, 12:54:05 PM
That really depends colorado school of Mines is one of the best engineering schools in the country. I have worked with dozens of high level engineers working for prestigous fortune 500 capital equipment manufacturers, ie Cat, Joh Deere, GE, CArrier, Sikorsky/UTX, IR, and on and on never met one from MU. Not knocking MU, but If i was wanting to go to one of the best engineering schools in the US I might be compelled to go to colorado. Not saying the Mu school is a slouch, just saying CSM is a great school and if engineering was abig deal and maybe I like to ski or something it might not be so clear cut as the poster insinuated.
Great for engineers, but what about the rest of the university? That's why I think it would be pretty clear cut choice for most students, apparently with the exception being Engineering.
I can tell you that after living in CO for 4 years that Mines is a petty damn good engineering school with a good reputation. It's location (Golden, CO) doesn't hurt either.
That being said, I think MU and Mines are pretty comparable in quality for that particular degree and have no problem giving the edge to Mines in engineering. If we were talking MU v. MIT that is is a different story, but in this case the question of which do you pick (assuming you want to be an engineer) really comes down to personality and where you would be most comfortable as a student.
I grew up in Albuquerque many many miles from MKE and I'm pretty sure the US News & WRpt ranking had next zero input into my decision to go to MU. People who choose a school solely based on it's ranking usually end up miserable and quickly realize they picked the wrong school for them. MU and everything that goes along with it fit me and my expectations, that's more important to me than any ranking that only gets a third of the total story.
If so, going back to Warriors will put us in the Top 25 guaranteed. ;D
Another (positive) way of looking at the rankings is that we are tied for the #5 highest ranked Catholic university behind Notre Dame, Georgetown, Boston College, Fordham and tied with Saint Louis at #82. There's also a nice trend of the Jesuit schools in the top 100. When you consider that we don't have the prestige of the Ivies or the funding of a state school, I'm pretty proud of where our little private school in Milwaukee ended up. As long as Marquette remains "forward leaning", I'll be OK with this ranking for 2007.
Quote from: MUinCO on August 17, 2007, 03:11:42 PM
People who choose a school solely based on it's ranking usually end up miserable and quickly realize they picked the wrong school for them.
Dead on. I know that if I would have gone on rankings, I would have gone to Madison, Minnesota, or UC San Diego. And looking back on it today I would have been nowhere near as happy as I am at MU.
There was something about MU that caught me that all these higher ranked schools never seemed to have - a sense of pride. It seems to me that Marquette students and alumni are much more proud of their university and its accomplishments than most students/alumni from the other schools I mentioned. I think it's that pride that sets us apart from the rest. I just hope that pride lasts for a long, long time. The way I see it, as long as we have a proud university, we'll have more and more competitive incoming freshmen.
And having a top 25 basketball team doesn't hurt that pride either ;)
It has a significant impact on a college's reputation, whether justified or not. I believe the #1 influence on a national employer's decision in choosing schools to recruit is a college's reputation. And athletic conference affiliation plays perhaps the biggest influence on a college's reputation.
What are Harvard, Yale, and Princeton known as? "Ivy Leaugue schools."
When I mention Michigan, Indiana and Iowa, what is the first thing you think of?
Why is it surprising SLU and the Colorado School of Mines is ranked the same or better than MU? Answer: Athletic Conference affiliation.
If you were a recruiter, wouldn't you be more proud of recruiting a student from Wake Forest vs a a student from UTEP? Why?
In addition to conference affiliation, a reputation in part is formed based on the US News and World Report--and so we should endorse it and focus on improving our ranking.
I've always considered a school like Valapraiso a good school. Why? Whether the US news exists or not, students are going to choose schools based on the reputation. I did and I'm sure you did. I applied to Villanova, solely because they won the National Championship. I firmly believe (and have said it may times on this and the message boards that preceded this) that our affiliation with the Great Midwest and CUSA hurt our reputation, as much as the Big East helped it.
Are we a significantly different school, because we are in the Big East, no. But, do we have a better reputation, yes. Do we attract better quality students as a result of our affiliation with the Big East, yes! There are many on the other marquette message board, and some on this, who firmly believed CUSA was good for our reputation.
I am proud of having gone to Marquette, because I know it has a good reputation.
As an example, I was trying to sell work to a former President of a Big Ten University within the last months and brought up the fact that I went to Marquette. We discussed Marquette for quite a while---it was apparent he had a fondness for the school because of the men's basketball program. After the meeting, he told me to tell "Tom" he said hi. I won the work. No lie.
Though unfortunate, athletic department success does translate into better academic reputation, along with a few other things, like alumni contributions, increased applications and stonger student applicants. Just look at Boston College. BC was always a good Jesuit university, albeit primarily a regional commuter school, like Marquette. When did it become a U. S. News institution? Can you say Doug Flutie? Now BC is one of the "hot" schools in the country. Is it really that much better than it was 20 years ago? Marginally perhaps, but it started with everyone saying "Hail Mary." I think one can equate MU's recent basketball success with the increased strong applicant pool. Academically, is MU really that much better than it was 5 to 7 years ago? I don't know. Maybe the better applicant pool makes it so. I hope so. If the students are as strong as my kids were when they went to college, then it's a lot better school than when I was there. I think there are lots of schools whose "academic" reputation has been enhanced by a Rose Bowl or a Final Four.
Quote from: Knight Commission on August 17, 2007, 08:50:08 PM
It has a significant impact on a college's reputation, whether justified or not. I believe the #1 influence on a national employer's decision in choosing schools to recruit is a college's reputation. And athletic conference affiliation plays perhaps the biggest influence on a college's reputation.
Big Time athletic programs essentially serve as massive advertising campaigns for the universities. It's really about name brand recognition.
MU has improved w/ each incoming class. I'm a junior and when i came in, the average ACT score for incoming students was 26, now it's 29, that shows stronger student applications.
Quote from: classof70 on August 18, 2007, 08:19:38 AM
Though unfortunate, athletic department success does translate into better academic reputation, along with a few other things, like alumni contributions, increased applications and stonger student applicants. Just look at Boston College. BC was always a good Jesuit university, albeit primarily a regional commuter school, like Marquette. When did it become a U. S. News institution? Can you say Doug Flutie? Now BC is one of the "hot" schools in the country. Is it really that much better than it was 20 years ago? Marginally perhaps, but it started with everyone saying "Hail Mary." I think one can equate MU's recent basketball success with the increased strong applicant pool. Academically, is MU really that much better than it was 5 to 7 years ago? I don't know. Maybe the better applicant pool makes it so. I hope so. If the students are as strong as my kids were when they went to college, then it's a lot better school than when I was there. I think there are lots of schools whose "academic" reputation has been enhanced by a Rose Bowl or a Final Four.
MU has improved w/ each incoming class. I'm a junior and when i came in, the average ACT score for incoming students was 26, now it's 29, that shows stronger student applications.
Wow, that is great to see. The average when I was an incoming freshman in 1999 was 24.
Also, nice to Marquette in the top 5 nationally for Catholic schools, which is precisely where Fr. Wild wanted to place MU. MU should concentrate on maintaining its place as one of the finest Catholic universities in the country.
wow 29??? that's crazy. With those kinda numbers I probably wouldn't be sitting here right now. I wouldve gotten in but not recieved the scholarship that allowed me to afford Marquettes ever increasing tuition. It's good to see though... I'm impressed
An investment in hoops--i.e., coach's salary and facilities--has brought success in that arena. Success there has allowed us to move up to the Big East, recruit better players, and essentially solidify our position. The windfall of this investment has been in exposure and marketing, which has led to the things listed above: increased contributions and a stronger applicant pool. This is just a rehash of what has been said above, but, I would expect that the administration is well aware of the factors opon which the college rankings are based as well. And if the application process has become that much more selective, I would expect that it won't be long before these investments are reflected by the school rankings also. Which would help recruiting. :)
I don't know if there is a thread on this board that has so many people agreeing. :)
Better athletics give MU a tremendous marketing reach that allows MU to bring in kids from all over the country as well as compete for top students locally.
Think about it this way:
The average prospective student is a recruit just like a basketball recruit. He/she is looking at everything that schools have to offer (facilities, classes, scholarships, activities, social life, sports, surroundings, etc.)
If MU has a tremendous hoops program and great school spirit, it makes the school that much more attractive to prospective students.
Also, increased school spirit has a big effect of donations, season tickets, clothing sales, etc. These are big revenue streams for MU that can effect the overall success of the university.
So, go buy a new MU sweatshirt... maybe we will move up a couple of spots in these reports and make our diploma's that much more valuable :P
That quote about average 29 ACT of an incoming MU student is wrong, btw.
The below page (on MU's site) doesn't give the average, but it gives some breakdowns. Looks like the average is about 26 and change. -- I admit, this is for the class of 2010, not 2011, but I'd be shocked if in one year, the change was +3. -- A score of 29 is in the 95th percentile. 26 is still not shabby, at 86.
http://www.marquette.edu/about/facts/qfprofile.shtml
I imagine one of the other big reasons MU's average is going up is because of the number of children going to college is on upward trend, year after year, with the increase of butts outstripping the increase of seats which = more selectivity everywhere.
Of course, the national psyche is probably most influenced by sports, so yep, MU succeeding on the hardwood is a big factor, although I'm not sure it influences the smartest of the high school set. It certainly boosts our # of incoming apps, though, which makes it a rising tide.
Quote from: mu_hilltopper on August 20, 2007, 08:24:13 AM
Of course, the national psyche is probably most influenced by sports, so yep, MU succeeding on the hardwood is a big factor, although I'm not sure it influences the smartest of the high school set. It certainly boosts our # of incoming apps, though, which makes it a rising tide.
I think this is the biggest factor... more applicants = high quality of students (it's just a numbers game). Also, as the school gets more money and upgrades that facilities, it can attract better faculty as well, which ultimately effects the quality of the school.
Also, it will be interesting to track because I think MU is still in the infant stages of the current its "renaissance". A lot of new buildings, a lot of new/increased donations that are going to help MU a lot in the next 20 years. I don't know if MU will ever be in the top 3 of Catholic schools (pretty tough group to break into), but I think MU is solid at #5 and probably still going strong.
Arguably one of MU's weakest areas compared to other schools was the campus and student facilities. Well, those issues are being addressed right now with the great new buildings that started with the East Hall renovation, Mashuda renovation and the new dental school 10 years ago and continued with the new library, AL, new campus town, and the rest of the current plans that MU is considering/undertaking.
All colleges are always evolving, but I think MU is evolving and getting better (in all areas) at a greater rate than most schools.
May I ask what Wisconsin schools are ranked higher than Marquette? If this was already provided, I apologize for not reading all the threads.
Quote from: NCMUFan on August 20, 2007, 09:09:45 AM
May I ask what Wisconsin schools are ranked higher than Marquette? If this was already provided, I apologize for not reading all the threads.
UW@Madison
In that case I don't think Marquette has anything but to feel proud. UW-Madison is the public university showcase school in Wisconsin with large state funding and bragging rights to some Nobel winners. Hence, excellent job Marquette.
I've read locally here in Connecticut that even Yale hates the ratings. Because the university's rating seems to fluculate in the Top 5, they often get asked questions from prospective students and parents such as, "What did you do to lose your number 1 rating in US News?"
Quote from: NCMUFan on August 20, 2007, 11:01:40 AM
In that case I don't think Marquette has anything but to feel proud. UW-Madison is the public university showcase school in Wisconsin with large state funding and bragging rights to some Nobel winners. Hence, excellent job Marquette.
I totally agree. We're not an Ivy League school and we aren't a big state school with massive funding. If you look at it in that context we're doing pretty well. I'm proud of being the #5 Catholic school behind only Notre Dame, Georgetown, Boston College and Fordham.
Quote from: Avenue Commons on August 20, 2007, 01:56:00 PM
Quote from: NCMUFan on August 20, 2007, 11:01:40 AM
In that case I don't think Marquette has anything but to feel proud. UW-Madison is the public university showcase school in Wisconsin with large state funding and bragging rights to some Nobel winners. Hence, excellent job Marquette.
I totally agree. We're not an Ivy League school and we aren't a big state school with massive funding. If you look at it in that context we're doing pretty well. I'm proud of being the #5 Catholic school behind only Notre Dame, Georgetown, Boston College and Fordham.
remember guys, Northwestern (#14) is the smallest (7,700 enrollment) and the ONLY private school in the big 10! Talk about accomplishment!
Just got my copy of the new U.S. News today (yes, Avenue, I do read it for more than just the rankings) and noticed a pretty telling tend in the rankings: there seems to be a institutional bias against private schools, with a some Ivy League exceptions, in the peer assessment category.
According to U.S. News, peer assessment is the largest single factor in a school ranking, accounting for 25 percent of a school's total score. The magazine defines peer assessment as "How the school is regarded by administrators at peer institutions. A school's peer assessment score is determined by surveying the presidents, provosts, and deans of admissions (or equivalent positions) at institutions in the school's category. Each individual was asked to rate peer schools' undergraduate academic programs on a scale from 1 (marginal) to 5 (distinguished)."
When you look at the rankings, the large public universities score disproportionatley well in peer assessment when compared to their private peers, even when the schools in question are far apart in their overall rankings.
For example, Lehigh U. ranks 31st overall, but has a peer assessment score of 3.2 That's a worse peer assessment than the University of Oregon (112th overall), University of Arizona (92nd), University of Missouri (91st), University of Kansas (85th), University of Colorado (79th) and Virginia Tech (71st).
Another example: Boston College ranks 35th overall, but gets a peer assessment of 3.6, the same or worse than Arizona, Minnesota, Iowa and Maryland, all of whom rank 54th or lower in the total rankings.
If college administrators really believe those schools are better than Lehigh and BC, there's something wrong with the state of college administration today.
Closer to home, MU gets a 2.9, lower than every single BCS school on the list.
I have no idea the cause of this - perhaps more college administrators went to BCS schools? - but it appears it skews the rankings heavily in favor of the large state universities.
Bias Pakuni? You don't say! ;)
In light of the donation today, I decided to take a look at the total endowments of the Catholic schools ahead of us in the rankings.
Notre Dame - $5.5 billion
Boston College - $1.6 billion
Georgetown University - $951 million
Fordham University - $372 million
SLU - $862.5 million
MARQUETTE - $301.2 million
Granted, I got all of these numbers from Wikipedia, so I'm not sure how accurate/up-to-date thse numbers are.
Assuming they're accurate and up-to-date, this is one area where we're sorely lacking compared with our peers. I bet another Final Four run (or, even better, national championship) would do wonders for that endowment number. I'd be interested to see how much it grew after our run in '03 or if the majority of that went to the AL.
I bet once Mr. Wade enters the fattest of his earning years he'll send a Jefferson-like donation our way, too. Not saying I'm expecting it or would think any less of him if he didn't. Just seems like something that's in his nature.
Also, does anyone here have any first-hand knowledge (or know someone who knows someone who knows someone) of how endowments are grown? Is it mostly dependent on fat-cat alum? Or is it more a function of the money-managers handling the funds? Or, like the case with most things, is it a combination of the two?
Marquette's Magis Campaign, from 1998-2005, raised over $356 million.
"Julie Tolan, vice president for university advancement, and Jean Dole, chief campaign officer for university advancement, presented the groundwork Monday for a future campaign, which is currently in the early planning and leadership phases.
Dole said the quick startup was the result of momentum from the Magis Campaign and the efforts of University President the Rev. Robert A. Wild.
'We have a very popular president, who is long-tenured, who wants to see the endowment grow to a billion dollars,' she said."
http://media.www.marquettetribune.org/media/storage/paper1130/news/2006/11/21/News/Fundraising.Campaign.To.Promote.Endowment-2504643.shtml (ftp://http://media.www.marquettetribune.org/media/storage/paper1130/news/2006/11/21/News/Fundraising.Campaign.To.Promote.Endowment-2504643.shtml)
"The bulk of Marquette's donations comes from a very small portion of donors, according to Dole. In the Magis Campaign, 95 percent of donations came from 5 percent of the donors.
Tolan said she expected the next campaign to rely on 3 percent of donors for 98 percent of incoming funds."
Thanks, MOwarrior.
Those are some ridiculous stats on the donors. I assumued the bulk came from the top, but wow.
The billion dollar goal seems lofty, but it looks like it's an important one to reach if we want to be considered with Georgetown and Boston College.