Do we stop bashing Vander Blue and start worrying that he'll leave early for the NBA? I vote soon.
Not NEARLY a consistent enough shooter. Not worried.
Quote from: Andrew Siciliano's Ear on January 28, 2013, 11:04:27 PM
Do we stop bashing Vander Blue and start worrying that he'll leave early for the NBA? I vote soon.
Is this supposed to be in teal? He isn't on ANYONE's draft board in the universe right now. If he leaves, he'll enjoy the NBDL and would be an incredibly stupid decision.
I can't wait for this board to explode when he declares after the season. Doing so would actually be a wise move on his part to get some advice from NBA personnel people then come back for his senior year with a better idea of what he needs to work on.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on January 28, 2013, 11:08:51 PM
Is this supposed to be in teal? He isn't on ANYONE's draft board in the universe right now. If he leaves, he'll enjoy the NBDL and would be an incredibly stupid decision.
I agree he has no chance as of now at the NBA, but why do people think it would be a stupid decision? He could make solid money in Europe where they pay for his rent, meals, cars, etc. I think fans get selfish sometimes putting their own interest in front of players. (not saying you, but in general)
He needs 4 years and I think he has a shot at first team all big east this year and definitely next year. Although, he really wants to leave early from what ive heard. I just hope he makes the right call and stays all four years. I think he will stay and I'm not at all worried about him leaving.
Declaring is one thing....signing with an agent is another. I have no doubt he'll explore it, but he is not going to be drafted this Summer so it's nothing more than getting info. He needs another year and then maybe he has a shot, but he'll have to improve in many areas. One more year would set him up better for overseas play as well.
Quote from: Andrew Siciliano's Ear on January 28, 2013, 11:04:27 PM
Do we stop bashing Vander Blue and start worrying that he'll leave early for the NBA? I vote soon.
Well I never bashed him but good question. If he keeps playing like he has since the UWGB loss (17 ppg, high 2P%) and we make the 2nd weekend of the tourney again with some showcase performances from him, I could see him shooting onto draft boards. He has a lot of things going for him, mainly age, athleticism, and demonstrated improvement. I think what ultimately holds him back this year is a lack of a consistent 3 point shot, but if all the aforementioned happens and he stays, we will benefit greatly next year, as he will be a superstar as a senior like McNeal was.
On the subject of the NBA, do you agree with TC that Jordan Hulls makes it? Seems highly unlikely, but some say Crean has connections.
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on January 28, 2013, 11:12:05 PM
I can't wait for this board to explode when he declares after the season. Doing so would actually be a wise move on his part to get some advice from NBA personnel people then come back for his senior year with a better idea of what he needs to work on.
They changed the rule on that. You have to withdraw your name much sooner to remain eligible, which greatly limits the opportunity to test the waters.
Hulls is not nearly athletic enough to make the league. If Hulls makes the league, TC didn't spend enough time at the Rec Center watching my squadron play with middling success in the intramural leagues, a few similar players on our squad.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on January 28, 2013, 11:28:46 PM
On the subject of the NBA, do you agree with TC that Jordan Hulls makes it? Seems highly unlikely, but some say Crean has connections.
No chance in hell. Undersized, can only shoot threes, can't create for others, gets absolutely abused on defense, and is all but neutralized by any quick/athletic defender. And yes I know this post was in jest, just wanted to point out exactly how ridiculous that statement was.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on January 28, 2013, 11:08:51 PM
Is this supposed to be in teal? He isn't on ANYONE's draft board in the universe right now. If he leaves, he'll enjoy the NBDL and would be an incredibly stupid decision.
whose draft board was jimmy on during his junior year?
What about zar? Djo? Crowder? Matthews wasn't even drafter but made a career. Draft boards aren't the end all be all
Do I think Vander will leave? No, I think he has to develop more. But it's a very very very weak draft class for next year and its about how good of a player he is NOW, not 2,4,6 or 12 months ago
Quote from: MUWarrior11 on January 28, 2013, 11:55:34 PM
whose draft board was jimmy on during his junior year?
What about zar? Djo? Crowder? Matthews wasn't even drafter but made a career. Draft boards aren't the end all be all
Do I think Vander will leave? No, I think he has to develop more. But it's a very very very weak draft class for next year and its about how good of a player he is NOW, not 2,4,6 or 12 months ago
Aren't you just proving chicos' point with all your examples? Those guys weren't on any boards during their junior year, improved enough during their senior year to get drafted. Which is exactly what chicos was saying: blue needs another year to stand a chance
I think Blue would probably get drafted in the second round if he left right now. Let's not forget he's only 20 years old, so in terms of age looks more like a college sophomore with the resume of a junior. He has the requisite size and athletic ability and he's showing he will respond to coaching. The improvement of his jump shot this year is amazing.
But that said, I still think he should wait a year. I think he'd have a decent shot of getting into the first round (though admittedly 2014 looks like a better draft than 2013) and getting a guaranteed contract. I think he'll explore but ultimately come back.
I am fairly certain that he tries playing at next level after this season. He has great upside, athletic and young. I would not bet against him. Possibly he knows his future plans and was told he needed to showcsase skills more. Plenty of pro guys have career years when playing for new contract.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on January 28, 2013, 11:28:46 PM
On the subject of the NBA, do you agree with TC that Jordan Hulls makes it? Seems highly unlikely, but some say Crean has connections.
Connections to whom? He has no chance of getting drafted.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on January 29, 2013, 07:57:39 AM
Connections to whom? He has no chance of getting drafted.
Tony Larussa, the Harbaugh Bros, Mike Maddux, Young Weezy.
Vander isn't ready for the NBA. He isn't consistent enough from the outside, and cannot play the point...even though his size projects to that position. He doesn't have the "NBA body" like Wes does.
Whether or not Vander should leave is one issue. He of course is nowhere near NBA ready and might not ever be. He absolutely needs to play more at the college level.
Whether or not he believes he should leave is an entirely different issue. Lots and lots of guys leave even though they shouldn't; seems there are two or three such instances every year. Sometimes, players get very bad advice from those who have no clue.
Having said all that, I wouldn't blame Vander for at least exploring his options -- especially if he has several more games like yesterday's.
Yeah, I don't think it would be a bad idea for spending his summer in some NBA draft camps...just to see how it pans out. (Can they still do that without declaring?)
Quote from: brewcity77 on January 29, 2013, 06:09:06 AM
I think Blue would probably get drafted in the second round if he left right now. Let's not forget he's only 20 years old, so in terms of age looks more like a college sophomore with the resume of a junior. He has the requisite size and athletic ability and he's showing he will respond to coaching. The improvement of his jump shot this year is amazing.
But that said, I still think he should wait a year. I think he'd have a decent shot of getting into the first round (though admittedly 2014 looks like a better draft than 2013) and getting a guaranteed contract. I think he'll explore but ultimately come back.
I don't see it. Most draft gurus barely have him in the top 50 for juniors...that doesn't count the seniors or the Euros.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on January 28, 2013, 11:28:46 PM
On the subject of the NBA, do you agree with TC that Jordan Hulls makes it? Seems highly unlikely, but some say Crean has connections.
I don't see it, then again Diener didn't seem like a NBA player either. Who would have thought a 3 star kid like Victor Olapido would be an absolute stud right now. He's had some success identifying guards that ended up going to the association that weren't even top 100 kids or didn't fit the pro prototype (Diener). Seeing Hulls in the NBA would be a shock to me. Maybe he was trying to motivate the kid to push harder.
I actually believe going early would make sense for him. The NBA very much like having an extra year, since he is young, to develop him. Love him or hate him the kid will get paid to play basketball for ten years after college, either NBA or overseas. Again, I would be shocked to see him at MU next year.
Quote from: MUWarrior11 on January 28, 2013, 11:55:34 PM
whose draft board was jimmy on during his junior year?
What about zar? Djo? Crowder? Matthews wasn't even drafter but made a career. Draft boards aren't the end all be all
Do I think Vander will leave? No, I think he has to develop more. But it's a very very very weak draft class for next year and its about how good of a player he is NOW, not 2,4,6 or 12 months ago
I think you are missing the point....Jimmy wasn't going to be drafted his JUNIOR year. Neither was Zar in his JUNIOR year. Neither was DJO in his JUNIOR year. Neither was Wes in his JUNIOR year.
That was the topic...JUNIOR year leaving for the NBA. I said nothing about his inability to be drafted after his SENIOR year. The question was whether he would go to the NBA after this year, his JUNIOR year. He isn't ready now...in his JUNIOR year.
Quote from: Goose on January 29, 2013, 09:14:24 AM
I actually believe going early would make sense for him. The NBA very much like having an extra year, since he is young, to develop him. Love him or hate him the kid will get paid to play basketball for ten years after college, either NBA or overseas. Again, I would be shocked to see him at MU next year.
The only smart decision is the one that makes the most sense over the long term. It's pretty hard to argue right now that Vander has guaranteed himself a long, successful career of playing for money. Is he further along than Butler, Hayward or Crowder were after their junior years? Did they not benefit greatly from another year of college basketball, both in skill development and maturity?
I continue to say he absolutely should return (unless he has an amazing second half of this season), but whether he returns or not depends upon the advice he gets.
MU82
I want him to return both for him and the team. I am not saying he should go but believe he is being told from people close to him to go. I would not argue another season might be very good for him. However, when he is playing well he plays at different speed than most games are played at in college. His athletic skills might be better used in NBA.
Quote from: Goose on January 29, 2013, 09:14:24 AM
I actually believe going early would make sense for him. The NBA very much like having an extra year, since he is young, to develop him. Love him or hate him the kid will get paid to play basketball for ten years after college, either NBA or overseas. Again, I would be shocked to see him at MU next year.
I would be shocked if he ISN'T here next year. It would mean he is listening to people he shouldn't be listening to.
Besides, it takes two to tango....an NBA team will have to draft him. He doesn't just get to leave and be on a team. If he leaves and isn't drafted, well then he's off to Europe. Or do you play your senior year and actually get ready and have a real chance to get drafted in the NBA.
I would hope people give him sage advice because leaving after his junior year is likely not going to fulfill his NBA dreams. He just scored 30 points against the worst team in the Big East. He's averaging under 15 points per game, less than 2 assists and about 3 rebounds. He is not a good shooter...a lot of work to do.
you can be sure that Wesley will be helping VB with his NBA decision.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on January 29, 2013, 07:57:39 AM
Connections to whom? He has no chance of getting drafted.
You thought I was serious? Sorry, didn't think teal was necessary.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on January 29, 2013, 11:16:14 AM
You thought I was serious? Sorry, didn't think teal was necessary.
Plenty of connections, as does Buzz
http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nba/heat/2012/10/25/erik-spoelstra-miami-coach-pat-riley-lebron-james/1656211/
We meet with the Lakers guys down the street on occasion. He's very connected as are a number of NCAA coaches at his level.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on January 29, 2013, 12:02:20 PM
Plenty of connections, as does Buzz
http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nba/heat/2012/10/25/erik-spoelstra-miami-coach-pat-riley-lebron-james/1656211/
We meet with the Lakers guys down the street on occasion. He's very connected as are a number of NCAA coaches at his level.
Nobody's arguing that. We're saying it won't mean jack sheeeeeit in terms of Hulls' draft status.
Quote from: Jajuannaman on January 29, 2013, 12:09:32 PM
Nobody's arguing that. We're saying it won't mean jack sheeeeeit in terms of Hulls' draft status.
Bingo
Lenny
If you had not mentioned your post we might not have learned about the Lakers pow wows.
Quote from: Jajuannaman on January 29, 2013, 12:09:32 PM
Nobody's arguing that. We're saying it won't mean jack sheeeeeit in terms of Hulls' draft status.
Agree. I would also, however, state that it can certainly help to get a kid a look, picked up in free agency, etc, if your college coach is well connected to the NBA.
As for the draft, there have been players drafted based on much input and the relationship of the college coach to the NBA team. It sealed the deal to take the kid because they know the college coach and his word matters. In this case, I don't see it happening because Hulls isn't going to get drafted. Then again, Tom Crean never said Hulls was going to get drafted either. Plenty of NBA guys that go undrafted still found a niche on a team because they filled a need and landed on the team via free agency. What Crean said back in November is that Hulls was a deliberate, solid, heady player like Travis Diener, who happened to stick with a few teams. Travis is a better player in my opinion, but since Crean coached both, recruited both, he certainly knows their games better than 99.99% of the folks out there.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on January 29, 2013, 01:47:29 PM
What Crean said back in November is that Hulls was a deliberate, solid, heady player like Travis Diener, who happened to stick with a few teams. Travis is a better player in my opinion, but since Crean coached both, recruited both, he certainly knows their games better than 99.99% of the folks out there.
He may have said that, but he also said he would be playing in the Association. In the snippet I watched, he also said that Georgia (whom IU had just struggled to beat) was an NCAA tournament team who would win 22-25 games this year. Now, he prepared for and played the Bulldogs, so I'm sure TC knows their game better than 99.99% of the folks out there. That didn't stop him from grossly overrating them. I think the same is true regarding Hulls.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on January 29, 2013, 01:47:29 PM
Agree. I would also, however, state that it can certainly help to get a kid a look, picked up in free agency, etc, if your college coach is well connected to the NBA.
As for the draft, there have been players drafted based on much input and the relationship of the college coach to the NBA team. It sealed the deal to take the kid because they know the college coach and his word matters. In this case, I don't see it happening because Hulls isn't going to get drafted. Then again, Tom Crean never said Hulls was going to get drafted either. Plenty of NBA guys that go undrafted still found a niche on a team because they filled a need and landed on the team via free agency. What Crean said back in November is that Hulls was a deliberate, solid, heady player like Travis Diener, who happened to stick with a few teams. Travis is a better player in my opinion, but since Crean coached both, recruited both, he certainly knows their games better than 99.99% of the folks out there.
Well that's a complete crock, because the only things they have in common is that they're white, undersized, and can shoot the 3. It's the lazy sports fan's comparison. Diener was a true point - he led the nation in assist rate his senior year. Hulls is having his best season in that category, and he comes in at #387. If you think Vander can't get drafted this year, how does a 6' shooting guard that plays terrible D and craps his pants when he drives the lane has a snowball's chance in hell at making the league - drafted or undrafted - even if his coach has all the NBA contacts in the world?
Quote from: Lennys Tap on January 29, 2013, 02:12:15 PM
He may have said that, but he also said he would be playing in the Association. In the snippet I watched, he also said that Georgia (whom IU had just struggled to beat) was an NCAA tournament team who would win 22-25 games this year. Now, he prepared for and played the Bulldogs, so I'm sure TC knows their game better than 99.99% of the folks out there. That didn't stop him from grossly overrating them. I think the same is true regarding Hulls.
Could be...then again Buzz said this team is bad....so does that make us bad or does that make it coach speak?
I'm sure we can all pull up comments Buzz has made about how good some teams are and they ended up being not very good...every coach does it so as not to disrespect the other coach. Nothing new there.
Personally, considering the timing of the comments around the beginning of the year, I take it as a motivational tactic he was using to get the kid to play better, especially on the defensive side. Give him something to aim for. He certainly isn't going to get drafted, which TC didn't say. Yes, he could get a look, but it would be surprising to see him play in the association.
Quote from: Jajuannaman on January 29, 2013, 02:22:58 PM
Well that's a complete crock, because the only things they have in common is that they're white, undersized, and can shoot the 3. It's the lazy sports fan's comparison. Diener was a true point - he led the nation in assist rate his senior year. Hulls is having his best season in that category, and he comes in at #387. If you think Vander can't get drafted this year, how does a 6' shooting guard that plays terrible D and craps his pants when he drives the lane has a snowball's chance in hell at making the league - drafted or undrafted - even if his coach has all the NBA contacts in the world?
You might have missed the part where I said Diener is the better player. You might have also missed the part where I said he won't get drafted, NO ONE has said he will get drafted, including TC. You might have also missed the part where I said I doubt he ever plays in the association and it was likely a motivational comment.
In case you missed those parts.
I am more interested if Buzz has connections than if TC does or does not. TC is in rearview mirror and yet a day seldom goes by without menion of him. I have heard Buzz talk several times and it sounds like he talks to all the right people. Maybe TC should call Buzz and call in favor to get his guy a look.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on January 29, 2013, 02:27:44 PM
You might have missed the part where I said Diener is the better player. You might have also missed the part where I said he won't get drafted, NO ONE has said he will get drafted, including TC. You might have also missed the part where I said I doubt he ever plays in the association and it was likely a motivational comment.
In case you missed those parts.
I said Diener is not only a better player, but a DIFFERENT player. One guy shoots open threes off the kickout. That's his entire offensive game. The other guy was the best ball distributor in the nation. But hey, they're both "heady" (a.k.a. white), so why not make that lazy comparison? Also, you're comletely ignoring the fact that Crean's contacts will not mean a single thing in terms of Hulls making the league, which was Lenny's joke to begin with.
A solid senior season, where he leads HIS team, makes more clutch plays, takes OVER games, and shows he is clearly head and shoulders above the rest of the competition on his way to 1st BE will be the reason why he doesn't declare and returns.
Hasn't done enough.
Yet.
The only things I can think of that would force him to play with the thought of leaving: test draft waters to be evaluated on what to work on during his senior campaign and/or a very DEEP run in the NCAAs where he becomes poster boy for the match-ups.
Just to see what NBA players looked like in college, here is the bio of 9 SGs drafted last year.
I think blue is going need to bump up his scoring to close to 20 and raise that 3% up to around 38% his senior year to get drafted.
Blue 6'4 (JR) 15 on 45%/32%
DJO 6'2 (SR) 18.3 on 45%/38%
http://statsheet.com/mcb/players/player/marquette/darius-johnson-odom
Kim English 6'6 (SR) 14 on 52%/46%
http://statsheet.com/mcb/players/player/missouri/kim-english
Doron Lamb 6'4 (Sop) 14 on 47%/47%
http://statsheet.com/mcb/players/player/kentucky/doron-lamb
Will Barton 6'6 (Sop) 18 on 51%/35%
http://statsheet.com/mcb/players/player/memphis/will-barton
Orlando Johnson 6'5 (SR) 20 on 45%/43%
http://statsheet.com/mcb/players/player/california-santa-barbara/orlando-johnson
John Jenkins 6'4 (JR) 20 on 47%/44%
http://statsheet.com/mcb/players/player/vanderbilt/2-john-jenkins
Jeremy Lamb 6'5 (Frosh) 11 on 48%/39%
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeremy_Lamb
Terrance Ross 6'6 (Sph) 16 on 46%/37%
http://statsheet.com/mcb/players/player/washington/terrence-ross
Bradley Beal 6'3 (Frosh) 15 on 45/34%