He definitely has a plan for Iraq that may work. He is definitely more experienced that Barak and Hillary is one of these poll politicians that I cant trust.
How much of his plan was plagiarized? Did he have any comments on Indians at Dunkin Doughnuts?
Sorry, he's not called the "dumbest man in the US Senate" for nothing. To use one of his recent statements about others, he's brain dead!
Biden's plan sounds good (breaking Iraq into 3 sections), but as a practical matter it will never be implemented because all you have then is segregated neighborhoods (a lot of people would be uprooted to settle in another area)-----once established, what prevents shia's from going into sunni areas and terrorizing the area or sunnis going into shia areas and doing the same thing-----it isn't that they would be any more inconspicuous under those circumstances than they are today----I mean they all look the same.
The answer is political reconcilliation. The surge is paving the way for that!
Chicos - do you believe W is smarter than Joe Biden? Yes, Biden says some things that we all say in our heads. However, you should listen to him talk about foreign policy - very on target.
Murf - federalism is the only answer in Iraq. If you think the sunnis and kurds will ever allow the national troops in their sectors, you are ignorant to the current situation on the ground. The only reason the surge has had some mild progress is because the US troops in Anbar have told the sunnis to control their own area and dont worry about national troops coming in.
Wait for Petreus to educate everyone when he goes to questioning from Biden.
Mvaile----you say that the "only reason the surge is working is because we have told the sunni's in Anbar that we will stay out"----I don't believe that statement to be accurate as we DO have troops in Anbar (how can US soldiers get killed/wouldn't in Anbar if they aren't there?). Also please understand that the surge is also taking place in Dyala provence as well as Bagdad and other areas.
You Dems are going to take a hit when Petreus makes his report in mid September----clearly it's working and political reconciliation will follow! Jordan has sunni's and shia----so do all the tranquill arab countries----if those countries can govern nationally, why can't Iraq?????
Murf - you misquoted me: Here is what I said. The national troops refer to the shia or the central govt
"The only reason the surge has had some mild progress is because the US troops in Anbar have told the sunnis to control their own area and dont worry about national troops coming in."
Murf - Jordan didnt have a Global power take out its central leadership, wouldnt that be an apples and oranges case? One other thought on Iraq, the shia cant even control themselves let alone the sunnis and Kurds. Unification under the shia will never happen. The only way it will work is by federalism.
Quote from: mviale on August 11, 2007, 01:40:53 AM
Chicos - do you believe W is smarter than Joe Biden? Yes, Biden says some things that we all say in our heads. However, you should listen to him talk about foreign policy - very on target.
Murf - federalism is the only answer in Iraq. If you think the sunnis and kurds will ever allow the national troops in their sectors, you are ignorant to the current situation on the ground. The only reason the surge has had some mild progress is because the US troops in Anbar have told the sunnis to control their own area and dont worry about national troops coming in.
Wait for Petreus to educate everyone when he goes to questioning from Biden.
I've listened to Biden for years...he has some interesting ideas but H=he has no chance to be elected...none. He's been caught plagiarizing on multiple occasions. He speaks off the cuff (which I do like) but that is a no-no for a politician that wants to be Presidential. It's fine if you want to be a whip or someone that is attempting to beat down the other party, it's not statesman or the role an executive would play.
I think, however, some of his best qualities are the same ones liberals often cite in their hatred for Bush which is ironic as hell. Self confidence, dogged determination, stubborness....all qualities cited by many on the left as problems with Bush's character are at high levels with Biden.
He isn't worth my time because he has no chance. His idea of federalizing Iraq is not a bad idea in my opinion, but it's wrought with missing details.
His role in the Bork and Clarence Thomas hearings was shameful.
Is that a hair on your coke?
Mvaile----every Islamic country has shia and sunni population----so not apples and oranges----just the way it is !
Like I say Federalism sounds good----but upon closer inspection there are many different sunni and shia neighborhoods in Bagdad and elsewhere----what do you suggest-----a forceable evacuation and relocation of these people into different states/provinces (forcing them to leave their jobs, homes, neighborhoods ?)----which sect controls Bagdad? No one will buy into that!
Yes, a forceable evacuation will not be necessary - The US army will sponsor a volunteer evacuation that is controlled.
This is the only plan with a chance for success.
Several questions arise from a "volunteer resettlement".
How do you split of Bagdad? How many "volunteers" are you going to get to giveup jobs in Bagdad to move to the boonies and be unemployed. (Can't travel great distances using a lot of gas in Iraq because there isn't that much refined product).
If i have a job that supports my family, I'm not going to move unless I'm guaranteed at least an equally good job (35% unemployment in Iraq)-----the boonies don't ofer good jobs.
Like I say----federalism sounds good, but the logistics of implementing are gigantic. Furthermore by segregating into enclaves there will be cross border wars like in Yugoslavia-----Serbs, Bosnia, Kosovo, etc
Bottomline-----whatever the ultimate solution------sunnis and shia have to reconcile in Iraq and live together in harmony----they do elsewhere, why can't they in Iraq!
Murf - they used federalism in Bosnia
Well Federalism didn't work in Bosnia as the Serbs invaded!
Check out this link------even the Shia are battling the Shia----how does this fit into Federalism? Seems to me that Federalism in Iraq would be a statistical nightmere-----you haven't addressed that !
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070812/wl_nm/iraq_diwaniya_dc
Some people just cant live with each other - same solution being proposed in Kosovo
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6943442.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6943442.stm)
Quote from: mviale on August 11, 2007, 08:13:33 PM
Is that a hair on your coke?
Is that a cigar in your intern's #&*&A?
MVaile-------the key words in your link are:
"EU envoy Wolfgang Ischinger said partition could be an option if both sides agreed".
Note "IF BOTH SIDES AGREE"----that's pie in the sky as the chances of multitudes of people wanting to voluntarily leave their homes and resettle elsewhere and start over are between slim and none!
You still haven't answered my question about the implementation of the logistics of such a proposal!
Murf - I heard that this wont be an issue in iraq as areas have already been partitioned This may also indicate why killings are reduced with reduced conflicts in neighborhoods. Borders have been set and prime for partition. It is set for federalism and revenue sharing.
Quote from: mviale on August 14, 2007, 03:09:20 PM
Murf - I heard that this wont be an issue in iraq as areas have already been partitioned This may also indicate why killings are reduced with reduced conflicts in neighborhoods. Borders have been set and prime for partition. It is set for federalism and revenue sharing.
Isn't the bigger problem trying to get Iran and Syria to stop sending over IEDs and people willing to walk into a shopping market and blow themselves up? I think most of the Iraqis "get it", but there are a lot of third party influencers there that have no desire to see a democracy succeed in the region.
The Saudi's, Iranians & syrians would benefit from peace on their borders. Iran is more concerned about American direct involvement in Iraq than sunni controlled areas.
Quote from: mviale on August 14, 2007, 05:29:16 PM
The Saudi's, Iranians & syrians would benefit from peace on their borders. Iran is more concerned about American direct involvement in Iraq than sunni controlled areas.
I respectfully disagree with the first part of your statement. The violence isn't spilling into their countries and the fact that America has a presence there allows them to whip some of the masses into a frenzy....which I believe they like (certainly the crackpot president in Iran does).
By the way, if you want to see what will happen if we withdraw...take a look at Basra right now as the Brits have moved out 5000 troops are merely a bit player down there. Total chaos as the Iraqis aren't ready to take control yet. That's exactly what will happen in Iraq if we "re-deploy" or whatever faux word is being used today.
Mvaile----you mean to tell me that federalism (as you call it) will work with "partioned neighborhoods"----if these neighborhoods are already partioned as "you heard"----why isn't it working now? Whoever heard of part of New York in Michigan----or part of Wisconsin being in Arizona----or part of California being in Virginia----that's what you're trying to tell me----that states can exist within other states----absolutely logistically impossible!
it wont work until revenue sharing from oil is worked out.
If revenue sharing of oil is worked out it will be because of political econciliation----when there is political reconciliation the present stratagy will work-----no need for a Plan B at that point!