until we find a senior leader who his killer instincts (mcneal/diener) we will be a very mediocre team, who is going to step up this year. there was no killer instinct in lsu game, we let our leads deteriorate against an awful sec team... that is on the seniors for lack of leadership to step on the opponents heart when they are down. instead we let a poor sec team back into the game on numerous occasions.
Todd
We've had really good senior leadership the past 4 years - DJ, Mathews and McNeal in 2008-9, Lazar in 09-10, JFB in 10-11 and Crowder/DJO last year.
Junior is the logical guy to fill the void (3 year starter, good pedigree from HS) but don't know if he's good/consistent enough.
Quote from: teamdee on December 28, 2012, 10:50:02 AM
until we find a senior leader who his killer instincts (mcneal/diener) we will be a very mediocre team, who is going to step up this year. there was no killer instinct in lsu game, we let our leads deteriorate against an awful sec team... that is on the seniors for lack of leadership to step on the opponents heart when they are down. instead we let a poor sec team back into the game on numerous occasions.
Weren't we an NIT team Diener's senior year? I mean maybe you should go with Jimmy Butler or Lazar Hayward or even Steve Novak.
I think it's Jr. or Vander. And I'm going with Jr.
And hoping.
Junior is key. He must take the reins of this thing, call it leader.
That does not mean he is the killer in a close game though you want it in Junior's hands.
I'd say Gardner is the killer: Just get it to him and it is either points, a foul, or a sweet dish--all will kill.
Quote from: BagpipingBoxer on December 28, 2012, 11:45:29 AM
Weren't we an NIT team Diener's senior year? I mean maybe you should go with Jimmy Butler or Lazar Hayward or even Steve Novak.
We were an NIT team in Diener's junior AND senior years. He was great, but not much around him.
Quote from: BagpipingBoxer on December 28, 2012, 11:45:29 AM
Weren't we an NIT team Diener's senior year? I mean maybe you should go with Jimmy Butler or Lazar Hayward or even Steve Novak.
+1 Diener was a talented PG but was in no way, shape, or form a leader.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 28, 2012, 11:54:49 AM
We were an NIT team in Diener's junior AND senior years. He was great, but not much around him.
Other than that other NBA player.......
Quote from: PJDunn on December 28, 2012, 12:11:12 PM
+1 Diener was a talented PG but was in no way, shape, or form a leader.
I didn't know Diener at all, graduated well before he did, only met him a couple of times. So I don't know if he had a "leader" personality.
But he led us to that win against Holy Cross when we didn't get much out of Wade and were in danger of suffering a humiliating loss. And he led us in scoring and with 5 huge 3-pointers in the OT win against Mizzou two days later. Without that "leadership" from Diener, there is no Final Four trip and no triple-double for Wade against Kentucky, that's for sure.
Quote from: MU82 on December 28, 2012, 12:52:02 PM
were in danger of suffering a humiliating loss.
Western Michigan?
Quote from: PJDunn on December 28, 2012, 12:11:12 PM
+1 Diener was a talented PG but was in no way, shape, or form a leader.
A late entry for the "Dumbest post of 2012" title.
Quote from: PJDunn on December 28, 2012, 12:11:12 PM
+1 Diener was a talented PG but was in no way, shape, or form a leader.
I beg to differ, actually
Quote from: PJDunn on December 28, 2012, 12:11:12 PM
+1 Diener was a talented PG but was in no way, shape, or form a leader.
Holy $hit.
I could go either way on the Diener "leadership" thing. Was he a great leader on the floor? Absolutely. Was he a great leader in the locker room? Who knows. Was he a great leader off the court? Probably not.
Quote from: PJDunn on December 28, 2012, 12:11:12 PM
+1 Diener was a talented PG but was in no way, shape, or form a leader.
I disagree with this. Diener had the shape of a historically renowned leader... Napoleon.
Diener was an absolute great floor leader, one of the best in Marquette history.
Some people love to knock him since he wasn't shaking hands and kissing babies on campus. He was more likely to be kissing girlfriends. Those are the same people that take shots at Dominic James at every possible opportunity.
Diener was not a leader. Right up there with Marc Marotta on the "divisive" scale.
Quote from: PJDunn on December 28, 2012, 02:24:01 PM
Diener was not a leader. Right up there with Marc Marotta on the "divisive" scale.
This is humorous.
Yup. Humor and accuracy is a rare combination on this board. I'm pretty proud of that post:)
Quote from: LloydMooresLegs on December 28, 2012, 11:49:15 AM
I think it's Jr. or Vander. And I'm going with Jr.
And hoping.
I agree with this. But I'm going with Vander.
Quote from: keefe on December 28, 2012, 01:05:30 PM
Western Michigan?
I don't know what this even means.
What I do know is that we were a much-hyped 3-seed with a first-team All-American playing against a 14-seed from a conference that didn't give athletic scholarships. And we were losing much of the game. I've NEVER been more nervous watching a Marquette game. We had lost to Tulsa in the first round the year before and I couldn't stand the thought of losing to Holy Cross with that team we put on the floor.
We finally took the lead for good with about 5 minutes to go on Diener's fifth 3-pointer of the game. And Diener clinched what was still a close game with a an end-of-the-shot-clock jumper with 35 seconds left followed by 4-for-4 free throws. We won by 4 ... and were on our way to the Final Four.
Phew!
Just think how that game would have gone down had Diener been a real leader.
Diener was a leader in the sense that he was a great floor general and he was a fighter that the team could get behind. His energy on the court lifted the team to higher levels, especially during the latter part of his Marquette career. The team his senior year was not very good and completely fell apart when he went down.
As for this year's leaders ...
It's got to be Junior and Vander. They have a combined 7 years in the program, they have the ball a lot (including in end-of-clock shooting situations) and they are at the top of our defense.
It will be difficult to overcome one of them having a bad game against a quality opponent. And it will probably be impossible to overcome both of them struggling in the same game against even, say, Green Bay.
Best question of the month on our board.
I hope it is Junior and Vander. And I disagree with the notion that Davante is the "go-to" guy. It has to be everyone, but you have to know Junior and Vander can get the job done. Like Butch and Bo did. Or Butch and Lloyd before that. Or Maurice and Earl.
We have a good team and I think a lot what's happening is learning to play together. We have a lot of juniors and sophomores. They have to step up -- as people do every year.
Quote from: PJDunn on December 28, 2012, 02:24:01 PM
Diener was not a leader. Right up there with Marc Marotta on the "divisive" scale.
Marotta's rep was scarred brutally because of his feud with Doc Rivers. Love hath no fury like a man scorned. Doc left MU early. Someone here posted it was because Marquardt was injured. It had a lot more to do with people's reaction to his relationship with Kris Campion and the poison exuded by Marotta.
Quote from: MU82 on December 28, 2012, 03:14:00 PM
I don't know what this even means.
Diener goes down and the rest of the season went down the toilet. The loss to W Michigan was embarrassing.
Quote from: PJDunn on December 28, 2012, 12:11:12 PM
+1 Diener was a talented PG but was in no way, shape, or form a leader.
You can also lead by your play, not by words. There was no other guy his teammates or the coach trusted in the last 2 minutes at the free throw line to lead the team to a win. He was phenomenal.
Quote from: keefe on December 28, 2012, 03:44:14 PM
Diener goes down and the rest of the season went down the toilet. The loss to W Michigan was embarrassing.
OK, I forgot about that one.
Still, in my mind, losing an NIT game to Western Michigan without our best player was nowhere near as embarrassing as it would have been losing a first-round NCAA game to a No. 14 seed with a team that included Wade, Diener, Jackson, Merritt and Novak.
Not that one really needs "degrees" of humiliation, I suppose.
Quote from: MU82 on December 28, 2012, 03:52:58 PM
OK, I forgot about that one.
Still, in my mind, losing an NIT game to Western Michigan without our best player was nowhere near as embarrassing as it would have been losing a first-round NCAA game to a No. 14 seed with a team that included Wade, Diener, Jackson, Merritt and Novak.
Not that one really needs "degrees" of humiliation, I suppose.
Losing a game with Wade, Diener, Jackson, Merrit and Novak all falls on Diener not being a leader as a sophomore point guard?
Quote from: Stone Cold on December 28, 2012, 03:44:38 PM
You can also lead by your play, not by words. There was no other guy his teammates or the coach trusted in the last 2 minutes at the free throw line to lead the team to a win. He was phenomenal.
As I understand it, Diener saved conversation for the ladies. He wasn't the most popular guy on the team but he was respected and his teammates listened to him on the court and relied on him. Trust is the most important element of leadership.
Quote from: keefe on December 28, 2012, 04:09:08 PM
As I understand it, Diener saved conversation for the ladies. He wasn't the most popular guy on the team but he was respected and his teammates listened to him on the court and relied on him. Trust is the most important element of leadership.
I think they all devote a good amount of attention to the ladies, doubt that had much to do with him being a leader or not. Also, he's married to the same girl he was dating while at MU.
Quote from: MarsupialMadness on December 28, 2012, 04:15:31 PM
I think they all devote a good amount of attention to the ladies, doubt that had much to do with him being a leader or not. Also, he's married to the same girl he was dating while at MU.
Ciao, Ro Ro!
The Dieners in Italia!
http://ciaororo.blogspot.com/