Another trip down the history books to fuel the debate on the form the new Catholic 7 will take.
Until now, the most important decision Marquette ever made was in 1977, when the university decided who would replace Al McGuire as men's head basketball coach. We could have done the "feel good" thing and hire Hank. He'd been loyal to Al and to the University. He was a great guy and a fine man. He was Al's sidekick for more than a decade and a candidate for head basketball coach in 1964, who was passed over for Al.
Or, we could have done the cold, corporate thing. We were coming off a national championship. We could have launched a national search and had any coach in the country not named Bob Knight, Ray Meyer or Dean Smith. We could have continued our winning ways into the 1980s, ensured we had those NBA prospects who ended up at DePaul and probably had a few more NCAA Championship banners hanging.
We did the loyal thing.
Our challenge today is similar. We could do the "loyal" thing and advocate bringing back our MCC foes, Dayton and St. Louis or MVC opponent Creighton. They would be good competitors and probably make the tournament from time to time. It would be a cheap add because all are close-by and we could justify it by saying "we're saving on airfare," or, "it's a long way to Spokane and Richmond and there just are not a lot of flights between Milwaukee and these cities." But if St. Louis, Dayton and perhaps Creighton were on the same plain as Georgetown, Villanova and us, my guess is they would have been playing in the Big East, or some other major conference, a long time ago.
If you accept this argument, we should start a conference with Loyola, DePaul, St. Louis, Creighton, Detroit Mercy, Dayton, Xavier and us. Save a lot on travel and you could bus to most of these places. And, we've played most of them for years!
Or, we could advocate doing the right thing and find 11 teams to join us people want to watch. We can advocate getting teams that can fill an arena night after night with 14,000 to 19,000 screaming fans. Teams that can play us to the last minute -- and of course lose -- but would be worthy of playing a Top 10 team because they themselves are a legitimate Top 10 to Top 25 team. Teams that can get people off their butts night after night and have them drive to the Bradley Center -- even if it means driving from Madison or Chicago. If that means bringing Gonzaga, VCU, Butler and Xavier in -- or any other combination of teams, so be it. DO IT.
To do anything other than the "right" thing would be to re-start the clock on the 1980s in Marquette basketball. Let's get down on our knees at Gesu and pray that never happens again!
Quote from: dgies9156 on December 26, 2012, 04:13:49 PM
Until now, the most important decision Marquette ever made was in 1977, when the university decided who would replace Al McGuire as men's head basketball coach. We could have done the "feel good" thing and hire Hank. He'd been loyal to Al and to the University. He was a great guy and a fine man. He was Al's sidekick for more than a decade and a candidate for head basketball coach in 1964, who was passed over for Al.
Or, we could have done the cold, corporate thing. We were coming off a national championship. We could have launched a national search and had any coach in the country not named Bob Knight, Ray Meyer or Dean Smith. We could have continued our winning ways into the 1980s, ensured we had those NBA prospects who ended up at DePaul and probably had a few more NCAA Championship banners hanging.
Denny Crum wanted to come to Marquette. Pity. Hank was a gentleman but he was no Denny Crum.
Why are we pretending everyone is so far away from one another on this topic? You just stated Xavier and Butler, which no one would disagree with on this board.
That makes nine teams. Presuming that a good media contract includes twelve teams the next three are basically a selection of Gonzaga, Saint Louis, Dayton, VCU, Richmond, Creighton, and a few others.
That's a selection of three from about seven or so teams. You would think that some are suggesting Prairie View A&M and some North Carolina in terms of how far away these teams are.
Quote from: MarquetteDano on December 26, 2012, 04:23:45 PM
Why are we pretending everyone is so far away from one another on this topic? You just stated Xavier and Butler, which no one would disagree with on this board.
That makes nine teams. Presuming that a good media contract includes twelve teams the next three are basically a selection of Gonzaga, Saint Louis, Dayton, VCU, Richmond, Creighton, and a few others.
That's a selection of three from about seven or so teams. You would think that some are suggesting Prairie View A&M and some North Carolina in terms of how far away these teams are.
Dano -- it's like this. I'm not an advocate of the Hiroshima theory advocated on this board, but I am afraid that we'll do something in the name of being cost efficient or because of long-term loyalties. As my post pointed out, we've done it before. I'm not totally convinced that some bean counter or some Jesuit loyalist won't do it again.
Gonzaga or Dayton? If there is any debate ongoing, I'm surprised the C-7 is even discussing this. To do anything other than Gonzaga would invite a certain B-29 to take off for Milwaukee and the next thing you'll know, we'll be seeking the next Bob Dukiet playing piano and promising that a first choice may not be the best choice. It's akin to the Big East asking whether to invite Syracuse or Slippery Rock 30 plus years ago!
When were any of those shifty schools mentioned?
Quote from: dgies9156 on December 26, 2012, 04:33:22 PM
Dano -- it's like this. I'm not an advocate of the Hiroshima theory advocated on this board, but I am afraid that we'll do something in the name of being cost efficient or because of long-term loyalties. As my post pointed out, we've done it before. I'm not totally convinced that some bean counter or some Jesuit loyalist won't do it again.
Gonzaga or Dayton? If there is any debate ongoing, I'm surprised the C-7 is even discussing this. To do anything other than Gonzaga would invite a certain B-29 to take off for Milwaukee and the next thing you'll know, we'll be seeking the next Bob Dukiet playing piano and promising that a first choice may not be the best choice. It's akin to the Big East asking whether to invite Syracuse or Slippery Rock 30 plus years ago!
I can't disagree with you as
I would like Gonzaga to be team #10. I don't know what the powers that be are using for their criteria 100% though. And they are privy to more info than me. Once you get to teams #11 & #12 however things are a lot closer than people make them out to be.
I would probably pick Creighton next but I can see arguments for other teams. That is all I am saying.
Hank was a great coach. There was a lot more going on at the time that caused the team to decline. Budgits were increasing, competition stepping up, TV contracts, growth of the NCAA, conference affiliations, etc. Same story even more pronounced with Rick. Great coach, but could not get it done at the same level as Al at MU. Heck, even Al would have had trouble maintaining his success over the next decade if he stayed. Maybe that's why he retired when he did.
Fact is, the school was just not keeping up with the changing landscape of college basketball. Needed better facilities, more money spent on the team, higher wages for assistants, conference affiliation, etc. The tone Hank and Rick had to deal with was, "Al did it with this, why can't you?" I don't think the administration really got it until O'Neill came along and crammed it down everyone's throats.
I like Gonzaga for the league if at all possible. If we don't get Gonzaga, it won't consign us to mediocrity, but getting them would be a boon, IMHO.
As for our past coaches, Hank obviously was a loyalty pick. He was an OK floor coach; not great, not bad. Recruiting fell off -- one year, Terrell Schlundt was our only signee, for cripe's sake -- but that was to be expected a little. It also wasn't only on him, as Majerus was the lead recruiter.
Wisconsin tried to hire Majerus but he brokered a deal to stay at Marquette as long as Hank stepped down within a year. When he got the job, Rick didn't know how to handle going from being the fun assistant to being the bad-cop head coach. All the players loved him as the roly-poly jokester assistant but many didn't like him when he became the disciplinarian. The demands of being at the alma mater also crushed him. Years later, he said he needed to step away, and the perspective he gained during his time as Don Nelson's assistant with the Bucks really made him love basketball again and turned him into the great head coach he became with Ball State and Utah.
Agree with Ruby that MU's facilities and commitment were behind the times and helped undermine both Hank and Rick, as well as the coaches who followed until our program stepped into the correct century.
Quote from: Ruby on December 26, 2012, 05:42:24 PM
Hank was a great coach. There was a lot more going on at the time that caused the team to decline. Budgits were increasing, competition stepping up, TV contracts, growth of the NCAA, conference affiliations, etc. Same story even more pronounced with Rick. Great coach, but could not get it done at the same level as Al at MU. Heck, even Al would have had trouble maintaining his success over the next decade if he stayed. Maybe that's why he retired when he did.
Fact is, the school was just not keeping up with the changing landscape of college basketball. Needed better facilities, more money spent on the team, higher wages for assistants, conference affiliation, etc. The tone Hank and Rick had to deal with was, "Al did it with this, why can't you?" I don't think the administration really got it until O'Neill came along and crammed it down everyone's throats.
On another thread I commented that Donna Shalala was instrumental in turning UW athletics. In Marquette's case, Fr. Diulio was key to our early resurgence following Fr. Raynor's retirement. Fr. Wild, as many of you know, then elevated expectations to the level we enjoy today. I like to think that Bob just had to be a CYO coach back in his youth reaching the hearts and minds of young kids in ways you can't during class time.
Quote from: Ruby on December 26, 2012, 05:42:24 PM
Hank was a great coach. There was a lot more going on at the time that caused the team to decline. Budgets were increasing, competition stepping up, TV contracts, growth of the NCAA, conference affiliations, etc. Same story even more pronounced with Rick. Great coach, but could not get it done at the same level as Al at MU. Heck, even Al would have had trouble maintaining his success over the next decade if he stayed. Maybe that's why he retired when he did.
Fact is, the school was just not keeping up with the changing landscape of college basketball. Needed better facilities, more money spent on the team, higher wages for assistants, conference affiliation, etc. The tone Hank and Rick had to deal with was, "Al did it with this, why can't you?" I don't think the administration really got it until O'Neill came along and crammed it down everyone's throats.
Most of this, I agree with you. Which is why I raised the point I did. I'm sure more than a few MU officials thought, "gee, if Al can do it on the cheap, so can you..." It wasn't a very businesslike approach to Marquette's one prime asset and one of the reasons why I thought things went downhill.
We have to break the mold and do what's best. It may hurt but if we don't look forward carefully, cautiously and with an eye toward the day when we again hoist a national championship banner at the Bradley Center, we'll be a very good university with great facilities and a very mediocre mid-major basketball team.
By the way, Al would have found a way to keep the merry-go-round working. And, Hank was head coach, so he was ultimately responsible for the lack of recruiting. For that reason, he was a good bench coach but a very mid-major head coach. I loved him as a person, but there was a reason we went with Al in 1964 instead of Hank.
Yes we have to do the right thing. The C7 with Gonzaga, X, and Butler would give the league High major status that would compete with the best in the "super conferences". ...and we have to do all we can to make sure Mrs. Buzz does not want to leave MU.
Quote from: Ruby on December 26, 2012, 05:42:24 PM
Hank was a great coach. ...
No. He was not a
great coach.
Nostalgia and his important part in the great teams of the 1970s mislead us, I think.
He was a very good assistant; by most accounts, he was a great man; but he was an average head coach at best. The record speaks for itself, even in a time of transition. The team's record declined every year from his takeover, and he left the cupboard bare with his last two recruiting classes (Class of '86: Kerry Trotter, Vic Lazaretti, Lloyd Moore [OK, the exeception to prove the rule] and Paul Newman; Class of '87: Herb Harrison, John Sichterman; Richard McCormick; Robert Hall; Tom Copa; Willie Harris). One very good player (Trotter) and one solid player (Copa) in two years.
I could be wrong, but my Dad told me around the time Hank took over is when the area around MU began to get pretty seedy. Perhaps that effected recruiting? Also I think he was a pretty good coach I mean 5 NCAAs (1 sweet 16) out of 6 years is pretty good. Better record than Buzz actually.
It certainly was seedy from 82 to 86, and looked like it had been for quite some time.
And 5 out of 6 NCAAs is great - esp w 32 team field. But again, those teams trended downward and that only continued with horrible recruiting classes that he left.
Quote from: LloydMooresLegs on December 27, 2012, 08:52:10 AM
No. He was not a great coach.
Nostalgia and his important part in the great teams of the 1970s mislead us, I think.
He was a very good assistant; by most accounts, he was a great man; but he was an average head coach at best. The record speaks for itself, even in a time of transition. The team's record declined every year from his takeover, and he left the cupboard bare with his last two recruiting classes (Class of '86: Kerry Trotter, Vic Lazaretti, Lloyd Moore [OK, the exeception to prove the rule] and Paul Newman; Class of '87: Herb Harrison, John Sichterman; Richard McCormick; Robert Hall; Tom Copa; Willie Harris). One very good player (Trotter) and one solid player (Copa) in two years.
You are so wrong here. He has the second highest winning percentage of any coach at MU. The only year he did not win 20 games was the year Dean Marquardt (starting center) almost died in a car accident just before the start of school. They went 18-9 and to NIT that year. Without the injury to Marquardt they would of easily won 20 games and made the NCAA tournament. In my opinion Raymond's career was hampered by three things. First following Al McGuire, which would of hurt whoever the next coach was. Second losing to Miami of Ohio when Whitehead got tossed from the game, which I believe also hurt him on the recruiting trail. We would not have lost that game, if Whitehead is not thrown out. Lastly, when he finally had the team built with his own talent he turned it over to Majerus who took us to three straight NIT's before bailing on us resulting in the Dukiet era. By memory he recruited Rivers, Downing, Johnson, Johnson, Trotter and Lloyd Moore who were all top 30 players going into their senior year of high school according to my Street & Smith's magazines.
Quote from: LloydMooresLegs on December 27, 2012, 08:52:10 AM
No. He was not a great coach.
Nostalgia and his important part in the great teams of the 1970s mislead us, I think.
He was a very good assistant; by most accounts, he was a great man; but he was an average head coach at best. The record speaks for itself, even in a time of transition. The team's record declined every year from his takeover, and he left the cupboard bare with his last two recruiting classes (Class of '86: Kerry Trotter, Vic Lazaretti, Lloyd Moore [OK, the exeception to prove the rule] and Paul Newman; Class of '87: Herb Harrison, John Sichterman; Richard McCormick; Robert Hall; Tom Copa; Willie Harris). One very good player (Trotter) and one solid player (Copa) in two years.
We were national champions in 1977! We could have had anyone.
If you set your bar low enough, everyone is a success. But if you benchmark against the best -- as in 1977 or 2003 -- just getting to the tournament isn't enough. Buzz knows that too and I think the 2013-2014 recuriting class, if it works out as we think it will and the momentum sustained, will be the turning point.
One other way to look at Hank is to ask, "how many of his players became pros?" As best I can tell, one. Glenn Rivers.
Quote from: bilsu on December 27, 2012, 09:33:57 AM
You are so wrong here. He has the second highest winning percentage of any coach at MU. The only year he did not win 20 games was the year Dean Marquardt (starting center) almost died in a car accident just before the start of school. They went 18-9 and to NIT that year. Without the injury to Marquardt they would of easily won 20 games and made the NCAA tournament. In my opinion Raymond's career was hampered by three things. First following Al McGuire, which would of hurt whoever the next coach was. Second losing to Miami of Ohio when Whitehead got tossed from the game, which I believe also hurt him on the recruiting trail. We would not have lost that game, if Whitehead is not thrown out. Lastly, when he finally had the team built with his own talent he turned it over to Majerus who took us to three straight NIT's before bailing on us resulting in the Dukiet era. By memory he recruited Rivers, Downing, Johnson, Johnson, Trotter and Lloyd Moore who were all top 30 players going into their senior year of high school according to my Street & Smith's magazines.
Respectfully disagree. Record was worse every year and if the team that he left for majesty's was what he had wanted to build it was good that he left when he did.
Quote from: bilsu on December 27, 2012, 09:33:57 AM
You are so wrong here.... Second losing to Miami of Ohio when Whitehead got tossed from the game, which I believe also hurt him on the recruiting trail. We would not have lost that game, if Whitehead is not thrown out.
I agree that everything bad that happened to us started at this game in March 1978. But, are you kidding me?
Marquette never should have allowed Miami of Ohio to be that close. Period. That's like losing to UW-GB. No way, no how should a team like Marquette have let Miami get within 20 points of us that late in the game.
We were defending national champions. They were an also-ran.
That was a coaching breakdown, dude, and the whole world knew it. To still be blaming the referees 34 years later reaks of sour grapes.
Oh and as for Walter Downing. We had him, lost him to DePaul and had him transfer back.
Quote from: dgies9156 on December 27, 2012, 09:37:07 AM
We were national champions in 1977! We could have had anyone.
If you set your bar low enough, everyone is a success. But if you benchmark against the best -- as in 1977 or 2003 -- just getting to the tournament isn't enough. Buzz knows that too and I think the 2013-2014 recuriting class, if it works out as we think it will and the momentum sustained, will be the turning point.
One other way to look at Hank is to ask, "how many of his players became pros?" As best I can tell, one. Glenn Rivers.
There are several more pro teams now and today's NBA rosters are bigger.
Quote from: dgies9156 on December 27, 2012, 09:46:00 AM
I agree that everything bad that happened to us started at this game in March 1978. But, are you kidding me?
Marquette never should have allowed Miami of Ohio to be that close. Period. That's like losing to UW-GB. No way, no how should a team like Marquette have let Miami get within 20 points of us that late in the game. We were defending national champions. They were an also-ran.
That was a coaching breakdown, dude, and the whole world knew it. To still be blaming the referees 34 years later reaks of sour grapes.
We were up 10 when he got thrown out. I do believe the technical Raymond's got protesting Whitehead being tossed from the game was a huge mistake by Raymonds. Without the technical the game probably does not go into overtime and we win. I am not blaming the refs as I come to believe that it is just fate when some teams win. Like Butler hitting that shot to beat MU. Butler was destined to win that game. The same way with Crowder hitting the three against Washington the year before. McGuire winning the title in 1977 was also destiny.
Quote from: BagpipingBoxer on December 27, 2012, 09:01:40 AM
I could be wrong, but my Dad told me around the time Hank took over is when the area around MU began to get pretty seedy. Perhaps that effected recruiting? Also I think he was a pretty good coach I mean 5 NCAAs (1 sweet 16) out of 6 years is pretty good. Better record than Buzz actually.
The area around Marquette was seedy well before Hank took over.
And that's not including the bars, which were seedy - in a good way.
Quote from: bilsu on December 27, 2012, 09:57:28 AM
I am not blaming the refs as I come to believe that it is just fate when some teams win. Like Butler hitting that shot to beat MU. Butler was destined to win that game. The same way with Crowder hitting the three against Washington the year before. McGuire winning the title in 1977 was also destiny.
What? How do you expect people to take you seriously when you say stuff like this?
None of the above had anything to do with "fate" or "destiny." It had everything to do with coaches and players performing relatively better on one team when compared to the other. Nothing mystical about it.
John Wooden used to call Hank for advice.
John efin Wooden.
Wooden knew he was a great assistant coach.
Guys,
First of all Hank taken over was almost four decades. Anyone old enough to be around the program back then knows it was a poor decision to hire Hank. I had utmost respect for Hank as a person, but he was out of his league with the program Al built. Everyone talks about Hank and the X's and O's which is great. Al McGuire built the program and when Al left was a downward spiral from day one. You could never overstate what Al meant to MU, even 35 years after he left. In Hank's defense it would have been very difficult for anyone to keep us at the level took us to.
We cannot change the past and hopefully LW &Co. know what they are doing. We have Allie McGuire and Doc on the BOT and hopefully they are vested in the process. This is without a doubt a big crossroads in program's history.
Saw John Wooden once and he commented that one of the reasons he won so much was that he had the right facilities and administration's support.
I also remember Rick commenting that one of the reasons he could not be successful at MU was that his efforts were constantly being compared (by the administration) to Al and the "Al did it without a weight room, etc., why can't you?" attitude.
Perhaps Hank and Rick should have been passed over at MU because they were too close to the Al years. Maybe they unwittingly contributed to the culture of deterioration as they were too close and too loyal to demand changes in the culture. We will never know with Hank. Rick, on the other hand, did go on and prove that he could coach. I still think they were both great coaches.
Quote from: bilsu on December 27, 2012, 09:46:22 AM
There are several more pro teams now and today's NBA rosters are bigger.
There were virtually no foreign players then, which now take up lots of the new roster spots you just mentioned.
I remember the game too well. Today it would have been reviewed and probably changed, and no T for Hank. Painful to remember.
If Marquardt hadn't been hurt Doc would have stayed rather than going early to nba. If my aunt had balls shed be my uncle.
Point is Hank was a great man, good AD, good coach. Rick was not yet a good coach. He should have paid MU and the Bucks for the experience he received. I believe he was the source of the UW rumors in a power play much as TC was during his tenure.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on December 27, 2012, 10:29:19 AM
What? How do you expect people to take you seriously when you say stuff like this?
None of the above had anything to do with "fate" or "destiny." It had everything to do with coaches and players performing relatively better on one team when compared to the other. Nothing mystical about it.
I really do not care if you take me seriously. However, how many people would even remember McGuire, if he lost in 1970 NIT after rejecting NCAA bid and if he had not won title in 1977 after announcing he was retiring? Some people are destined for greatness and some are not. Besides that if you talk to any old North Carolina fan, the only reason MU won the 1977 title was because Mitch Kupchik (sp) was hurt. A lot of things had to go right for MU to win title in 1977. They were a borderline team to get a bid and were actually up at half at Michigan when the bid came out. MU lost that game and some people speculated they would not have even got a bid, if the game had been completed prior to bid announcements. Then you have MU winning on a Whitehead tip in on a full court pass. Was that players playing great or was that destiny? On paper the 1977 was a great team, but the whole year they significantly underperformed and still won the title. I say that was destiny. At least it ended up being a great story and added to McGuire's legacy as much or more than McGuire stupidly turning down NCAA bid with a team that missed the final 4 the year before because of a Rick Mount buzzer beater.
Quote from: Badgerhater on December 27, 2012, 01:49:54 PM
There were virtually no foreign players then, which now take up lots of the new roster spots you just mentioned.
This is a valid point.
bilsu
Wasn't MU preseason #1 going into Al's final season?
Quote from: bilsu on December 27, 2012, 02:01:58 PM
I really do not care if you take me seriously. However, how many people would even remember McGuire, if he lost in 1970 NIT after rejecting NCAA bid and if he had not won title in 1977 after announcing he was retiring? Some people are destined for greatness and some are not. Besides that if you talk to any old North Carolina fan, the only reason MU won the 1977 title was because Mitch Kupchik (sp) was hurt. A lot of things had to go right for MU to win title in 1977. They were a borderline team to get a bid and were actually up at half at Michigan when the bid came out. MU lost that game and some people speculated they would not have even got a bid, if the game had been completed prior to bid announcements. Then you have MU winning on a Whitehead tip in on a full court pass. Was that players playing great or was that destiny? On paper the 1977 was a great team, but the whole year they significantly underperformed and still won the title. I say that was destiny. At least it ended up being a great story and added to McGuire's legacy as much or more than McGuire stupidly turning down NCAA bid with a team that missed the final 4 the year before because of a Rick Mount buzzer beater.
Or it was simply a case of an "underperforming" team getting its head out its asses when it mattered.
My dad used to say about that team that it was on the one hand Al's worst coaching job during the regular season, but his best during the tournament.
Sultan,
I would agree with your Dad. When chips were all in and we ran the table. We let down in 2nd half against Michigan after the getting the bid and lost. If bid would have been on the line we win that game. After final loss at home to Wichita State we played like national champs. NC fans can say all they want about why we won and means nothing to me. We started season #1 and ended it #1.
Quote from: leever on December 27, 2012, 10:24:28 AM
The area around Marquette was seedy well before Hank took over.
And that's not including the bars, which were seedy - in a good way.
Depends on one's point of view. I rather liked the earthy atmosphere north of Wells.
Quote from: Goose on December 27, 2012, 02:26:51 PM
Sultan,
I would agree with your Dad. When chips were all in and we ran the table. We let down in 2nd half against Michigan after the getting the bid and lost. If bid would have been on the line we win that game. After final loss at home to Wichita State we played like national champs. NC fans can say all they want about why we won and means nothing to me. We started season #1 and ended it #1.
Close, but not quite.
MU was preseason #2 behind Michigan at #1.
By the December 21st poll, we dropped to #6. A week later we were 12th. By Feb 1st, we had worked our way back up to 6th. However, by March 1st we had fallen all the way down to 19th. In the final poll (after the championship) we finished 7th. Michigan was 1st, followed by UCLA.
Chico's
I do believe we were #1 in SI and Basketball Weekly preseason. I meant we were #1 at season end because we won the whole thing.
I'm here to tell you Mitch Kupschak left UNC in '76 and consequently didn't figure in the Warriors vs Tarheels game at the Omni. On the other hand, Tom Lagarde was the injured member of the UNC team referred to earlier in this thread. There also was uncertainty prior to the game whether Phil Ford could compete due to injury. As we know, O'Koren, Davis, Kuester, Ford, et al did compete, but Butch and Bo, Rosie, BT, Jay, JB, Cloudpiercer, Bill, Robert, and friends kicked ass.
Nice history lessons one and all. The give and take on our championship season and on Hank has been wonderful.
Now back to the real question: Will history repeat itself? Are we confident that our administration, be it LW, Father Pilarz or others will make the business decisions that keep our program one of the best in the country?
We've been down this road before. As I said in the beginning, I'm worried.
Quote from: Goose on December 27, 2012, 02:05:21 PM
bilsu
Wasn't MU preseason #1 going into Al's final season?
No. Michigan was. Marquette stayed #2 behind Michigan until Feb when the losses started pilingv up then plummeted to 16 before the tournament. Remember, MU lost 7 games going into the Tourney.
Quote from: Goose on December 27, 2012, 06:33:16 PM
Chico's
I do believe we were #1 in SI and Basketball Weekly preseason. I meant we were #1 at season end because we won the whole thing.
Could be, I was going off the AP.
Quote from: keefe on December 28, 2012, 12:11:28 AM
No. Michigan was. Marquette stayed #2 behind Michigan until Feb when the losses started pilingv up then plummeted to 16 before the tournament. Remember, MU lost 7 games going into the Tourney.
Actually we fell in December
http://www.collegepollarchive.com/mbasketball/ap/teams/by_season.cfm?seasonid=1977&teamid=100
That's 'cuz immediately after Al announced, in early December, his pending retirement, the Warriors lost at home to both Louisville and Minnesota.
And in the following year 77-78, Hank's first, wasn't MU the preseason #1? I think they held on to it for a good while, too.
All I can recall is that horrible ending in the first round of the tournament (we may still have been #1) to who? Miami of Ohio? This was crushing. It was the beginning of a long, slow, painful slide. That team was loaded (only Bo was gone). Like the 1971 group, it deserved a much longer run against the best teams in the country. The 78 and 71 teams may have been MU's finest. Maybe this is best left to another thread.
I loved Hank and Rick but whatever Al added: flair, panache, NYC connections--was missing. National TV coverage dropped off with the graduation of Butch, Boylen and Whitehead after that sour finish. MU's prospects diminished as a national power. It remained a very well-coached team with very good players like Doc but not a real contender anymore-- at least not for #1 status.
The Big East basketball conference was started in 1979, combined with the start of East Coast cable and ESPN was the beginning of the end...combined with Al's retirement which effectively shut MU's door to the NYC talent pool. More so, DePaul was also on the rise with cable giant WGN...and also combined with Al's retirement, started to close the door to the Chicago pipeline...with Doc being the last out for a while...and even Rick losing out at first with Sir Walter whom he coached in camp for years.
There are lessens learned here for striking first with a strong hoops first conference rather than waiting and watching a quick slide followed by a couple of decades in the dumpster. The fabric of success is thin.
Quote from: DoggyDaddy on December 28, 2012, 11:28:44 AM
And in the following year 77-78, Hank's first, wasn't MU the preseason #1? I think they held on to it for a good while, too.
All I can recall is that horrible ending in the first round of the tournament (we may still have been #1) to who? Miami of Ohio? This was crushing. It was the beginning of a long, slow, painful slide. That team was loaded (only Bo was gone). Like the 1971 group, it deserved a much longer run against the best teams in the country. The 78 and 71 teams may have been MU's finest. Maybe this is best left to another thread.
I loved Hank and Rick but whatever Al added: flair, panache, NYC connections--was missing. National TV coverage dropped off with the graduation of Butch, Boylen and Whitehead after that sour finish. MU's prospects diminished as a national power. It remained a very well-coached team with very good players like Doc but not a real contender anymore-- at least not for #1 status.
There are a lot of similarities between Hank and Buzz. They both inherited very strong senior laden teams without much talent returning beyond that. Hank went 24-4. I remember one of the losses being at Louisville with Butch Lee missing free throws at end of game. Of course I remember the Miami of Ohio game. I do not remember the other two losses. Al's last recruiting class had one player Robert Byrd. Crean's last recruiting class after defections ended up being Chris Otule. The 4 man class before that flamed out with Saunder's(?) not being admitted, and the other three transferring out. Hank's first recruiting class was horrible. After that he did quite well in recruiting. Buzz had some immediate success with bringing in Butler and then DJO and Buycks, but most of his freshmen recruits were flameouts. Raymonds of course was hurt by Miami of Ohio loss and Buzz was hurt by James breaking his foot. Raymonds went by memory 24-4, 22-9 and 18-9 before going on an upswing. Buzz went 25-10, 22-12 and 22-15 before going on an upswing last year.
Quote from: DoggyDaddy on December 28, 2012, 11:28:44 AM
And in the following year 77-78, Hank's first, wasn't MU the preseason #1?
My recollection is that back then, defending champions were routinely ranked #1. Not always...
Quote from: DoggyDaddy on December 28, 2012, 11:28:44 AM
And in the following year 77-78, Hank's first, wasn't MU the preseason #1? I think they held on to it for a good while, too.
No, we were preseason #3...got up to number 1 late in the season in February, but lost. That team lost 61-60 to Louisville, 68-64 to Loyola, 65-59 to Notre Dame (they knocked off #1 MU) and then in the NCAAs to Miami.
http://www.collegepollarchive.com/mbasketball/ap/teams/by_season.cfm?teamid=100&seasonid=1978
We've held the number 1 ranking three times in our history, and each time we lost that week to drop from the top spot.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on December 28, 2012, 04:44:33 AM
That's 'cuz immediately after Al announced, in early December, his pending retirement, the Warriors lost at home to both Louisville and Minnesota.
That Minnesota game was great. We fell behind by 20 then staged a furious rally to take the lead. That Minnesota team was no slouch. It had Kevin McHale, Flip Saunders, and the Bahamian Brute, Mychal Thompson. There is no shame in losing to that squad.
Quote from: bilsu on December 27, 2012, 02:01:58 PM
Besides that if you talk to any old North Carolina fan, the only reason MU won the 1977 title was because Mitch Kupchik (sp) was hurt.
Kupchak was gone by then. An interesting note is that Jimmy Boylan contacted Dean Smith about transferring from Assumption. Dean had John Kuester and Phil Ford so he picked up the phone and called Al. The rest is history.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on December 28, 2012, 12:24:22 PM
No, we were preseason #3...got up to number 1 late in the season in February, but lost. That team lost 61-60 to Louisville, 68-64 to Loyola, 65-59 to Notre Dame (they knocked off #1 MU) and then in the NCAAs to Miami.
We've held the number 1 ranking three times in our history, and each time we lost that week to drop from the top spot.
I'd love to get back up to No. 1 to see what happens next time!
The Loyola loss in '78 was very hard to take. It marked a very rare loss to lesser opponent, something that seldom happened during Al's tenure. The MU magic had been lost after that game to some degree.
Al's worst loss in my four years was to Creighton. I'm guessing 1971-1972 season. They went into a four corners delay and upset Marquette at home. After that Al called it the "Creighton delay" and put it in himself.
Quote from: Marqevans on December 28, 2012, 03:30:02 PM
Al's worst loss in my four years was to Creighton. I'm guessing 1971-1972 season. They went into a four corners delay and upset Marquette at home. After that Al called it the "Creighton delay" and put it in himself.
1973-1974 season.
http://wiki.muscoop.com/doku.php/men_s_basketball/creighton
Quote from: DoggyDaddy on December 28, 2012, 11:28:44 AM
And in the following year 77-78, Hank's first, wasn't MU the preseason #1? I think they held on to it for a good while, too.
All I can recall is that horrible ending in the first round of the tournament (we may still have been #1) to who? Miami of Ohio? This was crushing. It was the beginning of a long, slow, painful slide. That team was loaded (only Bo was gone). Like the 1971 group, it deserved a much longer run against the best teams in the country. The 78 and 71 teams may have been MU's finest. Maybe this is best left to another thread.
I loved Hank and Rick but whatever Al added: flair, panache, NYC connections--was missing. National TV coverage dropped off with the graduation of Butch, Boylen and Whitehead after that sour finish. MU's prospects diminished as a national power. It remained a very well-coached team with very good players like Doc but not a real contender anymore-- at least not for #1 status.
At the time of Miami of Ohio, we were very angry. I was a senior and Marquette being Marquette, most of knew at least part of the basketball team. They lived and studied among us at the time. It was, for many of us, a personal downer because we knew the guys.
We didn't fully grasp what really happened until years later. We always kind of expected the music would continue and Hank, being Al's right hand guy, would step right in and things wouldn't change any. A year later, with the rise of Depaul, the signs were there and the Administration should have known it. Everything bad between Hank and Kevin O'Neill that happened could be traced to that single game and the implication it had on Marquette. I don't think we really shed the impact of that game until 2003, when the Tanned One got us back to the Final Four.
Perhaps I'm overly corporate today, but when a leader blows a game like Miami of Ohio, someone in administration needs to conduct what could become a very painful situation audit. Marquette needed to be realistic about its place in the world and its leadership in basketball. I'm totally convinced that then, as now, certain undercurrents existed within the university community that raise serious questions about the role of sports, including basketball. Why for example is Marquette highest paid staff member its head basketball coach? (answer: Market economies speak loudly!).
Let's hope the O'Hara Hall gang (or wherever they reside today) love our basketball as much as we do. Letr's hope they see it for what it is.
Let's hope we never have the Hiroshima moment we had in March 1978 again!!!!
Quote from: dgies9156 on December 28, 2012, 03:46:34 PM
Let's hope we never have the Hiroshima moment we had in March 1978 again!!!!
What does Hiroshima have to do with the Miami of Ohio loss?
Quote from: bilsu on December 28, 2012, 12:03:00 PM
Raymonds went by memory 24-4, 22-9 and 18-9 before going on an upswing. Buzz went 25-10, 22-12 and 22-15 before going on an upswing last year.
1977–78 Marquette 24–4 NCAA 1st Round
1978–79 Marquette 22–7 NCAA Sweet 16
1979–80 Marquette 18-9 NCAA 1st Round
1980–81 Marquette 20–11 NIT 1st Round
1981–82 Marquette 23–9 NCAA 2nd Round
1982–83 Marquette 19–10 NCAA 1st Round
Marquette: 126–50
Quote from: PTM on December 28, 2012, 03:34:23 PM
1973-1974 season.
http://wiki.muscoop.com/doku.php/men_s_basketball/creighton
Wow it was my senior year. I remember a friend of mine that went to Creighton came up to the game. It was quite a shock. My dad also was there because my fraternity had a father and son event.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on December 27, 2012, 02:19:15 PM
Or it was simply a case of an "underperforming" team getting its head out its asses when it mattered.
My dad used to say about that team that it was on the one hand Al's worst coaching job during the regular season, but his best during the tournament.
+1
If destiny determines winners and losers, why play the games at all?
Quote from: slingkong on January 02, 2013, 08:42:20 AM
+1
If destiny determines winners and losers, why play the games at all?
Because you do not know who is destine to win the game. Although, given MU's history of winning under Buzz when someone is suspended you could of said we were destined to win the game against Uconn. Given how the game played out, I would argue we won because we were destined to win the game. That is the only way you can explain Uconn going the wrong way in overtime, a team hitting a three pointer to tie the game after going 0-14. Throw in a wide open dunk that the dunking player gets called for offensive goal tending on.
Quote from: bilsu on January 03, 2013, 09:39:13 AM
Because you do not know who is destine to win the game. Although, given MU's history of winning under Buzz when someone is suspended you could of said we were destined to win the game against Uconn. Given how the game played out, I would argue we won because we were destined to win the game. That is the only way you can explain Uconn going the wrong way in overtime, a team hitting a three pointer to tie the game after going 0-14. Throw in a wide open dunk that the dunking player gets called for offensive goal tending on.
No, it couldn't be because Junior is a talented basketball player and because the referees made a mistake.
It was obviously "destiny." ::)
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on December 27, 2012, 02:19:15 PM
Or it was simply a case of an "underperforming" team getting its head out its asses when it mattered.
My dad used to say about that team that it was on the one hand Al's worst coaching job during the regular season, but his best during the tournament.
I think your dad made a valid point. Al announced his upcoming retirement prior to the season - I think he thought it would make the transition to Hank smoother and help the team focused, but it backfired. Maybe the team tuned Al out, maybe he was distracted - don't know. Somehow, though, Al and the team came together late, went on a roll, got a bid and played like a team with nothing to lose in the tournament.
Al's announcement, following a team dinner at The Clock restaurant, was made on Friday, Dec.17. The Warriors then proceeded to lose to Denny Crum at The Arena on Saturday and also to Minnesota on Dec.21.
4ever
I always try and forget that Friday in December. The two home losses were a shock, especially Minn game. If memory serves me we fell behind big and made a run to start second half but ultimately fell short. Lot of home losses that year and final game was a ball buster.
Nothin' worse than losin' to the Shockers on senior night.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on January 03, 2013, 09:41:38 AM
No, it couldn't be because Junior is a talented basketball player and because the referees made a mistake.
It was obviously "destiny." ::)
I grew up on seashells and balloons, so my theory seems perfectly logical to me.
Quote from: dgies9156 on December 27, 2012, 09:46:00 AM
I agree that everything bad that happened to us started at this game in March 1978. But, are you kidding me?
Marquette never should have allowed Miami of Ohio to be that close. Period. That's like losing to UW-GB. No way, no how should a team like Marquette have let Miami get within 20 points of us that late in the game. We were defending national champions. They were an also-ran.
That was a coaching breakdown, dude, and the whole world knew it. To still be blaming the referees 34 years later reaks of sour grapes.
Oh and as for Walter Downing. We had him, lost him to DePaul and had him transfer back.
"Marquette never should have allowed Miami of Ohio to be that close. Period. That's like losing to UW-GB."
So, If we follow the logic you're using throughout this thread, MU made a mistake hiring Buzz Williams -based on misguided loyalty since he was an assistant coach- and as a result the program is spiraling downward as evidenced by the loss to Wisconsin-Green Bay.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on January 03, 2013, 11:55:50 AM
Nothin' worse than losin' to the Shockers on senior night.
Especially when their best player was nicknamed "Cheese".