A 12 team conference
Half of them not really competing for the NCAA ... Depaul, Seton Hall, SJU, Providence, SLU and Dayton. Maybe one of them breaks through as a 10 seed every year.
The top half would be competing every year for the NCAA ... MU, GU, Nova, X, Butler, Creighton. Expect three or four to break through yearly.
Who on the list is a 1 to 3 seed potential? Three teams, GU, MU and Nova. Maybe once every 2 to 3 years one of these schools rises to that level.
Seems like this is a borderline mid-major/high-major conference. If GU were to leave, solidly mid-major.
Honktonk said in the other thread that GU is not fully on-board. That worries me a lot. Lose them and this is the A-10 redux.
Thoughts?
IF WE COULD ONLY ADD GONZAGA TO THIS CONFERENCE!!!! THAT WOULD MAKE ALL THE DIFFERENCE IN THE WORLD!!!
IN THE MEANTIME, I WILL WORRY, WORRY, WORRY, WORRY!!!!
I THINK THIS MIGHT BE THE END OF MARQUETTE BASKETBALL AS WE KNOW IT!!!!!!
WORRY WORRY WORRY!!!!
Thoughts? It is the best available deal. The BEast is dead. The ACC, SEC, B12 and B1G are not calling. Take control of your future by making the best conference you can out of basketball only schools. This is it. We can discuss 10 versus 12 teams and who that should be. But this is the best deal for MU going forward. The basketball schools are no longer beholden to the whims of football re-alignment and can create something solid. Of course it isn't as good as the old Beast. But again, the BEast is dead. Quit dithering like my mother in law.
The key to the success of this conference is the bottom half ... Depaul, Seton Hall, SJU, Providence, SLU and Dayton. Can 1 or 2 break out of this list to the top half? If so, this conference can be close to the old BE.
Most likely candidates, DePaul and SJU.
Quote from: AnotherMU84 on December 23, 2012, 09:10:03 PM
The key to the success of this conference is the bottom half ...
What an absurdly stupid statement.
What other conference thinks this way? Yeah, ACC basketball isn't defined by Duke and UNC. The "key to their success" is Clemson and Virginia Tech.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on December 23, 2012, 09:13:17 PM
What an absurdly stupid statement.
What other conference thinks this way? Yeah, ACC basketball isn't defined by Duke and UNC. The "key to their success" is Clemson and Virginia Tech.
ACC is an established 60 year old conference with football and large state schools. The C7 is something new and untried. Cannot compare it to existing conferences.
And, while you're purposely seeking out everything I write to disagree, just to be a Dick like you called yourself the other day, go crazy with this statement ....
1+1=2
Quote from: AnotherMU84 on December 23, 2012, 09:16:52 PM
ACC is an established 60 year conference with football and large state schools. The C& is something new and untried. Cannot compare it to existing conferences.
Yes. We have former national championship winners in Georgetown, St. Johns, Villanova and Marquette.
But this conference is going to be defined by Gonzaga.
Some people....
Quote from: AnotherMU84 on December 23, 2012, 09:16:52 PM
ACC is an established 60 year old conference with football and large state schools. The C7 is something new and untried. Cannot compare it to existing conferences.
And, while you're purposely seeking out everything I write to disagree, just to be a Dick like you called yourself the other day, go crazy with this statement ....
1+1=2
1) ACC is an established 60 year old conference with football and large state schools. The C7 is something new and untried. Cannot compare it to existing conferences.
So, I guess you're sticking by your statement that the C7 conference will be the first to be defined by its bottom teams.
If you're correct, it's going to be a mid-major conference no matter who gets invited. So, just relax and try to enjoy it.
2) And, while you're purposely seeking out everything I write to disagree, just to be a Dick
Really? You think that Sultan or any of us are
seeking out this crap that you're putting out? Wow.
Quote from: LittleMurs on December 23, 2012, 09:31:51 PM
Really? You think that Sultan or any of us are seeking out this crap that you're putting out? Wow.
Right. I mean it's not like he started a new thread when two others discussing the same topic were active or anything.
Quote from: LittleMurs on December 23, 2012, 09:31:51 PM
1) ACC is an established 60 year old conference with football and large state schools. The C7 is something new and untried. Cannot compare it to existing conferences.
So, I guess you're sticking by your statement that the C7 conference will be the first to be defined by its bottom teams. If you're correct, it's going to be a mid-major conference no matter who gets invited. So, just relax and try and enjoy it.
Starting a new conference from scratch without football has never been tried before. All our conversations are about one thing ... who does the C7 invite to improve this start-up. X and Butler has widespread agreement. After that it gets controversial (SLU, Dayton, Creighton, Gonzaga, etc).
Since this is new and different it already defies conventional wisdom. So after X and Butler, who are the next two schools that make this new venture better? DePaul and SJU getting back into the mix.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on December 23, 2012, 09:19:42 PM
Yes. We have former national championship winners in Georgetown, St. Johns, Villanova and Marquette.
But this conference is going to be defined by Gonzaga.
Some people....
St. John's has never won a NCAA championship. But your point still stands.
Quote from: hoyasincebirth on December 23, 2012, 09:40:22 PM
St. John's has never won a NCAA championship. But your point still stands.
I perceived that they had. According to people here, that's all that matters.
Put it another way, every single one of the C7 schools has been to a Final Four...Gonzaga hasn't...but the Zags are the key to the conference.
Quote from: AnotherMU84 on December 23, 2012, 09:38:18 PM
Starting a new conference from scratch without football has never been tried before. All our conversations are about one thing ... who does the C7 invite to improve this start-up. X and Butler has widespread agreement. After that it gets controversial (SLU, Dayton, Creighton, Gonzaga, etc).
Since this is new and different it already defies conventional wisdom. So after X and Butler, who are the next two schools that make this new venture better? DePaul and SJU getting back into the mix.
Wasn't the A-10 started from scratch without football? Or the WCC? Etc, etc?
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on December 23, 2012, 10:13:54 PM
Wasn't the A-10 started from scratch without football? Or the WCC? Etc, etc?
A-10 did have football earlier this decade. It was founded in 1975 with football members such as Penn State, WVU, Pitt and Rutgers.
The WCC also has Football schools such as BYU
Ditto the Big East, it too had football
The C7, while just getting started, supposedly is going to only have non-footballs schools. And its intention is to be a "Power Conference" something the A-10and WCC never achieved.
So you are correct but it is assumed the C7 is taking a different road (assumed because all they have done so far is leave the Big East).
One needs to look past recent success/failure.
In 1989, Seton Hall was in the title game and Marquette sucked. If one looked at both programs then, one would have said MU was mid-major quality and Seton Hall was big-time. DePaul has had long stretches of excellence, including some not too long ago -- also at a time when Marquette was not very good.
Sports are cyclical. Aside from a very few exceptions, things change. Even Carolina and Duke have had down times. The coach is so important. If Buzz leaves and is replaced by a lesser coach, Marquette could wane. Or maybe Marquette would hire somebody even better, as I believe happened after Crean left. What if whoever replaces George John Thompson III isn't as good; will Georgetown struggle?
All I'm saying is one needs to look past what a program has done in the last couple or years or even in the last decade. Things change. That's sports. That especially is college sports these days.
Pick good schools, good facilities, good programs, good TV markets ... and hope that you're right in the long run.
My Ideal Conference would be:
C7+
Xavier
Butler
VCU
Uconn
Cincinnati
Temple
Memphis
I would love to keep even 2 of the 4 football schools that are good at basketball. But since that isn't likely to happen my conference would be:
C7 +
Xavier
Butler
VCU
Gonzaga
Creighton
Here's why. Besides the locks of xavier, and butler Here are the teams that are often discussed:
VCU, Gonzaga, Creighton, Dayton, St. louis.
VCU: NCAA's:11 NCAA's since 2000: 5, Sweet 16's:1 Final 4's:1 Attendance:7,622 Undergraduate population:23,754 Media Market size: 58th
Gonzaga:NCAA's:15 NCAA's since 2000:13, Sweet 16's: 5 Final 4's: 0 Attendance: 6,212 Undergraduate population: 4,865 Media Market size: 75th
Creighton:NCAA's: 17 NCAA's since 2000: 7, Sweet 16's: 3 (none since 1974) Final 4's: 0 Attendance: 16,665 Undergraduate population: 4,153 Media Market size: 76th
Dayton:NCAA's: 14 NCAA's since 2000: 4, Sweet 16's: 6 (none since 1984) Final 4's:1 (1967) Attendance: 12,154 Undergraduate population: 6,925 Media Market size: 64th
St. Louis:NCAA's: 7 NCAA's since 2000: 2, Sweet 16's: 2 (none since 1957) Final 4's: 0 Attendance: 7,757 Undergraduate population: 8,406 Media Market size: 21
I honestly do not get the love for Dayton and Saint Louis Especially over VCU. VCU has been to more tournaments in recent memory and has gone to a sweet 16 and final 4 this decade.
I get that the St. Louis market is the best market we could look to add, but no way St. Louis comes close to delivering that market. They're 4th in that Market at best behind Kansas, Missouri, and Kansas St. I do not want to add St. Louis unless Fox, NBC, or ESPN tells us they want them for some reason.
Gonzaga has had consistent success and would be the best brand we could add of the 5 possible remaining additions. I get their geographic drawbacks, but if it was up to me I would add them. I think we're fine with out them, but since it seems like we're headed to 12 I much prefer gonzaga to St. Louis.
No hybrids Hoya. No football schools. In the long run it will never work.
Quote from: LittleMurs on December 23, 2012, 09:31:51 PM
1) ACC is an established 60 year old conference with football and large state schools. The C7 is something new and untried. Cannot compare it to existing conferences.
So, I guess you're sticking by your statement that the C7 conference will be the first to be defined by its bottom teams. If you're correct, it's going to be a mid-major conference no matter who gets invited. So, just relax and try to enjoy it.
2) And, while you're purposely seeking out everything I write to disagree, just to be a Dick
Really? You think that Sultan or any of us are seeking out this crap that you're putting out? Wow.
I think he's sayin the bottom teams emerging to previous glory will go a long way to differentiating this conference. Big difference from what youse sayin. Big difference from what youse sayin.
Quote from: hoyasincebirth on December 23, 2012, 11:07:53 PM
My Ideal Conference would be:
C7+
Xavier
Butler
VCU
Uconn
Cincinnati
Temple
Memphis
I would love to keep even 2 of the 4 football schools that are good at basketball.
I agree, potential members which have excellent basketball programs who also house football programs should certainly be considered. The objective of the conference should be to comprise the best collection of basketball schools as possible. The schools mentioned above (Connecticut, Cincinnati, Temple, and Memphis) are first and foremost basketball schools who happen to field football teams.
I believe out of the four football schools mentioned some are more likely to join/stay than others. Any member institution which has a football program would have to compete as either as an independent or as an associate member of another conference in football. I would also consider Massachusetts, with the addition of UMASS the conference would grow it's footprint in the northeast with a presence in the Massachusetts/Boston Market. If all we did was to add Memphis and UMASS it would be great addition.
It's understandable that their may be some angst against schools that have football programs. But we must not cut of our nose to spite our face. By excluding any consideration of basketball minded schools who happen to field football teams our conference may resemble more of a mid-major conference than an elite level conference.
Quote from: hoyasincebirth on December 23, 2012, 11:07:53 PM
I get that the St. Louis market is the best market we could look to add, but no way St. Louis comes close to delivering that market. They're 4th in that Market at best behind Kansas, Missouri, and Kansas St. I do not want to add St. Louis unless Fox, NBC, or ESPN tells us they want them for some reason.
Gonzaga has had consistent success and would be the best brand we could add of the 5 possible remaining additions. I get their geographic drawbacks, but if it was up to me I would add them. I think we're fine with out them, but since it seems like we're headed to 12 I much prefer gonzaga to St. Louis.
Great work and I agree dat addin in UConn, Memphis, Temple, Cincy and other orphan programs is best. I also agree Gonzaga is a must get. I would add in BYU. My only beef is when you say dat SLU is 4th in its home town. Interest in KU and K State is when they lose. Show Me's hate those teams, especially KU. Let's get Gonzaga and BYU. Get Gonzaga and BYU.
Quote from: MU82 on December 23, 2012, 10:40:45 PM
What if whoever replaces George Thompson III isn't as good; will Georgetown struggle?
Does this mean Homer Jr., will be the new assistant coach?
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on December 23, 2012, 11:19:32 PM
No hybrids Hoya. No football schools. In the long run it will never work.
I don't think that's true. Especially the addition of Memphis. Where are they possibly going to go? No one is stealing them. Sure Cinci and Uconn would leave at the drop of a hat, but who cares. In my mind milking them for extra TV dollars is worth whatever hit in PR we take from losing those teams.
Quote from: dgies9156 on December 24, 2012, 09:06:16 AM
Does this mean Homer Jr., will be the new assistant coach?
Oops. Fixed.
I might as well have made a reference to Dan the Dream!
Quote from: hoyasincebirth on December 24, 2012, 09:11:51 AM
I don't think that's true. Especially the addition of Memphis. Where are they possibly going to go? No one is stealing them. Sure Cinci and Uconn would leave at the drop of a hat, but who cares. In my mind milking them for extra TV dollars is worth whatever hit in PR we take from losing those teams.
I have said this before, but I think unity of purpose and mission is very important. Memphis is going to look out for their football team first and foremost. They should do that in another conference. It isn't worth the short term gain.
Quote from: hoyasincebirth on December 24, 2012, 09:11:51 AM
I don't think that's true. Especially the addition of Memphis. Where are they possibly going to go? No one is stealing them. Sure Cinci and Uconn would leave at the drop of a hat, but who cares. In my mind milking them for extra TV dollars is worth whatever hit in PR we take from losing those teams.
How does this work for Memphis, Cincy and Uconn? If they join the C7 for basketball only, where do they play football? The Big East? Why would they Big East not demand they include Basketball? Where do Memphis, Uconn and Cincy play non-revenue sports? In the C7 or BE? How does X feel about including Cincy?
In theory I like the idea of taking football schools. In reality I do not see how it works. Not possible.
Quote from: AnotherMU84 on December 23, 2012, 10:24:00 PM
A-10 did have football earlier this decade. It was founded in 1975 with football members such as Penn State, WVU, Pitt and Rutgers.
The WCC also has Football schools such as BYU
Ditto the Big East, it too had football
The C7, while just getting started, supposedly is going to only have non-footballs schools. And its intention is to be a "Power Conference" something the A-10and WCC never achieved.
So you are correct but it is assumed the C7 is taking a different road (assumed because all they have done so far is leave the Big East).
The A-10 was founded, however, as a basketball only league. In fact, it's original name was the ECBL..Eastern Conference Basketball League. They never sponsored football. The WCC doesn't sponsor football either...BYU is an independent for football.
Quote from: AnotherMU84 on December 24, 2012, 09:22:30 AM
How does this work for Memphis, Cincy and Uconn? If they join the C7 for basketball only, where do they play football? The Big East? Why would they Big East not demand they include Basketball? Where do Memphis, Uconn and Cincy play non-revenue sports? In the C7 or BE? How does X feel about including Cincy?
In theory I like the idea of taking football schools. In reality I do not see how it works. Not possible.
I assume Like temple did they could play their football in the MAC. Temple and the MAC parted amicably and the MAC would gladly take them back and as long as the numbers were even I'm sure they'd take Memphis as well. And frankly Xavier isn't in a position to dictate anything. So if they don't like it too bad. I mean villanova eventually relented and accepted temple so I think they could get along.
But I realize this isn't necessarily realistic, but I know the option is/has been explored. It doesn't look like it's going to happen, but i'm glad they entertained the idea. This isn't about principles, ideals, or emotion. This is about money.
Quote from: hoyasincebirth on December 24, 2012, 09:37:34 AM
I assume Like temple did they could play their football in the MAC. Temple and the MAC parted amicably and the MAC would gladly take them back and as long as the numbers were even I'm sure they'd take Memphis as well. And frankly Xavier isn't in a position to dictate anything. So if they don't like it too bad. I mean villanova eventually relented and accepted temple so I think they could get along.
But I realize this isn't necessarily realistic, but I know the option is/has been explored. It doesn't look like it's going to happen, but i'm glad they entertained the idea. This isn't about principles, ideals, or emotion. This is about money.
Under this scenario they would be subordinating football for a better basketball. This is opposite of how the world now works. These schools will burn basketball to get into a better football situation.
It is not a mid-major conference. Get a grip.
Memphis and Massachusetts would be the most likely options to be members who have football programs. Here's a few options they both have:
Memphis:
• Associate member in football with:
o Mountain West
o Conference USA
o Sun Belt
• Independent
Massachusetts:
• Associate member in football with:
o MAC
o Conference USA
o Sun Belt
• Independent
Massachusetts became an associate member in football with the MAC in 2012.
All I can say is if you need to google who the coach of the school's in conference then it is mid major.
I need to google the coach of most schools in most conferences.
I got to 19 on kenpom before I could not name a coach (oklahoma state). It gets to about 50/50 in schools 20-40.
boyonthedock
Do you think any knowledgeable basketball fans need to google who are coach is?
Quote from: boyonthedock on December 24, 2012, 11:43:30 AM
I need to google the coach of most schools in most conferences.
I got to 19 on kenpom before I could not name a coach (oklahoma state). It gets to about 50/50 in schools 20-40.
OSU has a proud basketball tradition.
Hank Iba invented the Motion Offense - and we all thought it was Bo Ryan.
Leonard Hamilton did not do much at Ok State. I have never understood the acclaim this man has received. He is medicore at best.
Eddie Sutton took 2 schools to the Final 4 and consistently beat Mike Deane for recruits
Travis Ford is there now.
Quote from: Goose on December 24, 2012, 11:59:55 AM
boyonthedock
Do you think any knowledgeable basketball fans need to google who are coach is?
without a doubt.
Quote from: Goose on December 24, 2012, 11:40:03 AM
All I can say is if you need to google who the coach of the school's in conference then it is mid major.
Maybe, but how many people here can name the coach at Georgia? Auburn? Clemson? South Carolina? Oregon State? Colorado? Utah? Stanford? ETc? All are high major schools in high major conferences. Ask people out here on the coast who the coach of Minnesota, Northwestern, Iowa, Penn State, etc and they will have no idea.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on December 24, 2012, 09:33:35 AM
The A-10 was founded, however, as a basketball only league. In fact, it's original name was the ECBL..Eastern Conference Basketball League. They never sponsored football. The WCC doesn't sponsor football either...BYU is an independent for football.
This was true for the original Big East as well.
Chico's
Valid point. But, I do believe most fans know the top tier programs and who coaches them. I actually believe Buzz in the next rung down were many fans know of Buzz. We were in a league with a slew of HOF'ers and that helped our program a great deal.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on December 24, 2012, 01:53:57 PM
Maybe, but how many people here can name the coach at Georgia? Auburn? Clemson? South Carolina? Oregon State? Colorado? Utah? Stanford? ETc? All are high major schools in high major conferences. Ask people out here on the coast who the coach of Minnesota, Northwestern, Iowa, Penn State, etc and they will have no idea.
If they bend a waitress over a table, they know who they are.
(Pitino)
Quote from: Goose on December 24, 2012, 02:23:00 PM
Chico's
Valid point. But, I do believe most fans know the top tier programs and who coaches them. I actually believe Buzz in the next rung down were many fans know of Buzz. We were in a league with a slew of HOF'ers and that helped our program a great deal.
You would be surprised out here how few people know who Buzz Williams is. I'd say less than 20%. They have no idea who he is. UCLA fans, some of them, know he looks like Curley.
To prove this out, look each year when Buzz is rumored for a job and go to their boards. How many of those posts start with "I don't know anything about this guy, but I looked at their record and it seems good"...or something along those lines.
Chico's
Not going to dispute your claim. I would have thought with air time he has received in past couple years that would he would have much higher name recognition. Would think they pick someone people know to be part of the NCAA coverage.