So I got to thinking this morning...if the Big East dissolved, what if we all started a true basketball-only league? What I mean is, a nationwide league for basketball programs only. All other sports, like lacrosse, soccer, golf, volleyball, and others would be parked in another conference that was more local to cut down on travel costs for all schools involved. The Horizon, MAC, MVC...doesn't really matter.
ONLY basketball plays in this new league. And basketball programs could afford the travel. We could realistically look at a conference with teams like Georgetown, Villanova, Marquette, Gonzaga, Creighton, Wichita State, and St John's. Hell, even if schools wanted they could leave their football behind. San Diego State, Memphis, even Duke if they get left out in all the shuffling would be welcome.
Would it be worth losing the Big East affiliation for all other sports to create a true basketball super-conference?
http://collegebasketballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/11/22/report-big-east-schools-may-vote-to-dissolve-league/
I'm a little concerned, as a fairly new season ticket holder, about the quality of the schedule in the next few years. We've lost or will lose, West Virginia, Syracuse, Notre Dame, Pitt. I can't see Louisville or Uconn sticking around either. Those are the marquee games. In fact, they usually sell those 5 game plans with just the high profile games. Central Florida and SMU games in return are not attractive. If season ticket revenue is a big part of the MU budget, there should be some major concerns about lost ticket sales in the future BigEast. These will be some interesting and challenging times for MU admin....
Quote from: brewcity77 on November 24, 2012, 06:44:24 AM
So I got to thinking this morning...if the Big East dissolved, what if we all started a true basketball-only league? What I mean is, a nationwide league for basketball programs only. All other sports, like lacrosse, soccer, golf, volleyball, and others would be parked in another conference that was more local to cut down on travel costs for all schools involved. The Horizon, MAC, MVC...doesn't really matter.
ONLY basketball plays in this new league. And basketball programs could afford the travel. We could realistically look at a conference with teams like Georgetown, Villanova, Marquette, Gonzaga, Creighton, Wichita State, and St John's. Hell, even if schools wanted they could leave their football behind. San Diego State, Memphis, even Duke if they get left out in all the shuffling would be welcome.
Would it be worth losing the Big East affiliation for all other sports to create a true basketball super-conference?
I'm not sure if it's realistic the league would play ONLY basketball (i.e., the programs through the Midwest and the Northeast might as well join up to play soccer, volleyball, etc., as well). But it could be the way to get the western schools like Gonzaga, or BYU even, and create a truly national brand?
The other possibility is to create a western half or division. Would Creighton, Wichita St, St. Mary's, Gonzaga, BYU, Loyola Marymount really add much more travel than the WCC, which stretches down the entire coast? Heck, ideally it would be great to grab UNLV too. But I'm not getting my hopes up, these programs will move their sports to the league best suited for football.
Quote from: Warrior of Law on November 24, 2012, 08:54:20 AM
I'm a little concerned, as a fairly new season ticket holder, about the quality of the schedule in the next few years. We've lost or will lose, West Virginia, Syracuse, Notre Dame, Pitt. I can't see Louisville or Uconn sticking around either. Those are the marquee games. In fact, they usually sell those 5 game plans with just the high profile games. Central Florida and SMU games in return are not attractive. If season ticket revenue is a big part of the MU budget, there should be some major concerns about lost ticket sales in the future BigEast. These will be some interesting and challenging times for MU admin....
This.
There's no doubt Marquette's primary entertainment product is decreasing in value. Over the past 3-5 years, MU has been charging (tickets + donations) more and more for a very high quality product.
It will be interesting to see how MU handles the pricing aspect of their new world.
While some of the demand for MU's season tickets are .. irrational (school spirit, pride, community) a good chunk is rational. This year, there are 9 (being generous) high quality games at the BC. Two season tickets $570+100* = $1,340 / 9 = $148 per game for a couple of tickets -- many consider games versus UMBC and Savannah State as complimentary games thrown in.
When the math changes and there's only 5 high quality games .. and the cost per game for HQ games goes to $268 .. suddenly (or not so) the secondary market (scalpers) for those 5 games becomes economical for great seats.
Roughly .. MU is headed for a C-USA product with BE prices.
* I chose the $570/100 level because there are 11 sections at that level in the lower bowl. The math gets really high for the 6 sections at $570+500 or $2140 for 2 tix, div 9 games = $237/HQ game.
I share with someone who is a nonalum and lives outside of town. He'll drop like a rock if we have to pay a donation fee to see C-USA teams. Ironically, he always wanted the Rutgers game so he could go with his boss. This is bad.
I suppose if the conference opponents are degraded, MU could upgrade the pre-conference games somehow. You could salvage the product by finding 3-4 sub-50 RPI home and homes.
I still think a basketball dominated league of private schools may be the way to go and would include Georgetown, St. John's, Seton Hall, Villanova, Providence and one more private school from among St. Joe's, LaSalle, Richmond or Siena in the east. The midwest would have Marquette, DePaul, Butler, Xavier, Dayton and Saint Louis. The history of the programs is there, the size of the cities would attract a cable network and I think it would be a product a Marquette fan and fans around the country would be attracted to since this would be one of the few conferences that would actually be aligning the members geographically AND academically. For the most part, the non-revenue sports would benefit as well.
Quote from: TedBaxter on November 24, 2012, 12:04:50 PM
I still think a basketball dominated league of private schools may be the way to go and would include Georgetown, St. John's, Seton Hall, Villanova, Providence and one more private school from among St. Joe's, LaSalle, Richmond or Siena in the east. The midwest would have Marquette, DePaul, Butler, Xavier, Dayton and Saint Louis. The history of the programs is there, the size of the cities would attract a cable network and I think it would be a product a Marquette fan and fans around the country would be attracted to since this would be one of the few conferences that would actually be aligning the members geographically AND academically. For the most part, the non-revenue sports would benefit as well.
Sounds like A10 merge...who just garnered a TV deal significantly less per school than what MU earns now. Cable markets built the Big East. Why give that up?
These conferences won't do it because these decisions are being made based on emotion in this cake walk, but for the Big East and ACC to merge, at least in football. But they won't as the networks won't allow it and they are the puppet masters calling the shots on the back of the universities willing to sign up for $50 million exit fees. These two conferences need to band together...for might.
Quote from: TedBaxter on November 24, 2012, 12:04:50 PM
I still think a basketball dominated league of private schools may be the way to go and would include Georgetown, St. John's, Seton Hall, Villanova, Providence and one more private school from among St. Joe's, LaSalle, Richmond or Siena in the east. The midwest would have Marquette, DePaul, Butler, Xavier, Dayton and Saint Louis. The history of the programs is there, the size of the cities would attract a cable network and I think it would be a product a Marquette fan and fans around the country would be attracted to since this would be one of the few conferences that would actually be aligning the members geographically AND academically. For the most part, the non-revenue sports would benefit as well.
This would be a defeat
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on November 24, 2012, 12:48:34 PM
Sounds like A10 merge...who just garnered a TV deal significantly less per school than what MU earns now. Cable markets built the Big East. Why give that up?
Well yeah we don't want to "give it up," but if everything's gone what is there to give-up? I dont see Boise, Houston, SDSU, BYU, etc wanting into the Big East if Louisville, UConn, Cincy, Rutgers, etc are not there. And on the A10 contract - sure it's much less but that league has 4 more teams to pay, and a new league would have none of LaSalle, Fordham, St. Bonaventure, St. Joe's, Rhode Island, GW, etc leaching off it. Will it get a ton? No. Is it ideal? F*** no. But is the drop off as steep as some are making it out to be? I don't think so. I think there really is an opportunity to brand yourself as the true basketball conference and grow.
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on November 24, 2012, 12:48:34 PM
These conferences won't do it because these decisions are being made based on emotion in this cake walk, but for the Big East and ACC to merge, at least in football. But they won't as the networks won't allow it and they are the puppet masters calling the shots on the back of the universities willing to sign up for $50 million exit fees. These two conferences need to band together...for might.
An ACC-Big East merger will be on the ACC's terms, and what would they want from the basketball onlies? Memphis, Temple, Cincy, Houston, UCF, USF? Sure. But they won't need the basketball schools to lay claim to being the top basketball conference if they still have Duke, Syracuse, UConn, Louisville, Pitt, Wake, Memphis, Cincy
Quote from: unforgiven on November 24, 2012, 01:25:28 PM
This would be a defeat
If everyone leaves, what's the option? We're already in defeat mode with SDSU, Boise, Navy, UCF, SMU, etc. What's the best option? Is there a way we could keep it alive and demand some of the football money? Maybe that's worth it. But if it's the difference between $1 million and $2.5 million + the drastic increases in travel costs, I think it's getting negligible, if not equal.
The goal Marquette should be focused on is which affiliation will get MU on TV more (and use that to grow the brand over-time...i.e., the BIG EAST!). Is it a Creighton-Marquette game or Boise-Marquette? Marquette vs Xavier, or Marquette vs SMU?
Quote from: Aughnanure on November 24, 2012, 09:07:44 AM
I'm not sure if it's realistic the league would play ONLY basketball (i.e., the programs through the Midwest and the Northeast might as well join up to play soccer, volleyball, etc., as well). But it could be the way to get the western schools like Gonzaga, or BYU even, and create a truly national brand?
I guess my response would be why isn't it realistic? There are already schools slated to join the Big East for one sport. I realize it's different than anything that's been done before, but new times call for new ideas. For television contracts, target schools by market. Schools like San Diego State, Gonzaga, St Louis, Wichita State, and others could open markets the Big East never would have touched without increasing travel costs for non-revenue sports.
I guess the question would be how much is the Big East worth to sports like soccer, volleyball, and lacrosse?
Quote from: brewcity77 on November 24, 2012, 01:49:00 PM
I guess my response would be why isn't it realistic? There are already schools slated to join the Big East for one sport. I realize it's different than anything that's been done before, but new times call for new ideas. For television contracts, target schools by market. Schools like San Diego State, Gonzaga, St Louis, Wichita State, and others could open markets the Big East never would have touched without increasing travel costs for non-revenue sports.
I guess the question would be how much is the Big East worth to sports like soccer, volleyball, and lacrosse?
No, I agree with your idea as a way to bring the western schools in - and any that got left out of the big football conferences and want to tie themselves to the strongest basketball league possible. I just don't see Marquette, Villanova, DePaul, Xavier, Georgetown, etc., not playing their non-revenue sports together in such a league, given their close proximity and past collaboration (especially Lacrosse).
Quote from: Aughnanure on November 24, 2012, 01:34:56 PM
Is it a Creighton-Marquette game or Boise-Marquette?
Good points overall. I just hate when people reference the new football-only schools to help support a basketball argument. Marquette vs. Boise will not be happening, regardless of what happens.
Quote from: unforgiven on November 24, 2012, 01:25:28 PM
This would be a defeat
Call it common sense and stability and that's going to be a huge deal going forward, especially if you want to maintain the non-revenue sports.
As far as Dr. Blackheart's comment about lower money with a TV deal, that is the truth, but please tell me how a new conference without some of the big names (Syracuse, Pitt and potentially Louisville, Cincinnati and UConn) is going to be high on ESPN's list. The new conference is going to have to get the best deal possible and maybe a newer network like NBCsports see's this as an avenue to get their new product in area's like New York, Chicago, Philadelphia, Washington D.C., Cincinnati, St. Louis, Indianapolis and Milwaukee.
Try to think of this as the best idea for Marquette's long term athletic future and not as a 1-2 year patch job.
Quote from: MUBasketball on November 24, 2012, 02:07:32 PM
Good points overall. I just hate when people reference the new football-only schools to help support a basketball argument. Marquette vs. Boise will not be happening, regardless of what happens.
Yeah, I guess I just see that football-only denotation going away if the western schools stay. I think the BE would form a western half with BYU, Nevada, UNLV, and a few others if they stay.
Quote from: Aughnanure on November 24, 2012, 02:44:21 PM
Yeah, I guess I just see that football-only denotation going away if the western schools stay. I think the BE would form a western half with BYU, Nevada, UNLV, and a few others if they stay.
I think it is highly likely Boise, SDSU etc bail out.
The only reason that Boise and SDSU stay is if the television contract is a good one. I doubt that is happening anytime soon because networks aren't going to invest in a conference if they don't know who the members are going to be.
If Boise, SDSU bail does that make it more likely Houston and SMU do the same? That would be as good as a final nail in the coffin to the BEAST.
Talk now heating up about ACC taking Cincy, Ville AND UConn on Monday:
@bricmiller Just heard from someone tied to Big East, Louisville to the ACC w/ Cincy, UConn to likely follow (deleted since)
"@RiceRadio: I'm hearing Louisville, Cincy, and UConn to #ACC next year."
@jbrinkmeyer Wow, I just got quite the phone call. UConn, UC, and Louisville to join the ACC. To be announced Monday. #bearcats
@jbrinkmeyer: In that call I was told that FSU is the one who wanted to have all 3 invited.
BearcatLair.com@BearcatLair
Far from ready to report it, but this UC to the ACC rumor is coming at me from a lot of different directions right now. Crazy night.
As others have touched on, this is my biggest fear about the proposed "basketball" only league. It's a terrible idea. Ticket sales will drop. It will be a mid major league. especially if people are talking about(as i always see) wanting to bring in SLU & Dayton. Right or wrong, we as ticket holders are used to seeing Pitt, Cuse, Uconn etc. Having us watch SLU, Dayton, Butler etc, does NOTHING for me, and it will do NOTHING for recruiting. You are damn right that MU's BB program is teetering on the brink right now...This will cause a major ripple effect on the quality of MU BB. Anyone that thinks otherwise is a fool.
Quote from: muguru on November 24, 2012, 05:47:00 PM
As others have touched on, this is my biggest fear about the proposed "basketball" only league. It's a terrible idea. Ticket sales will drop. It will be a mid major league. especially if people are talking about(as i always see) wanting to bring in SLU & Dayton. Right or wrong, we as ticket holders are used to seeing Pitt, Cuse, Uconn etc. Having us watch SLU, Dayton, Butler etc, does NOTHING for me, and it will do NOTHING for recruiting. You are damn right that MU's BB program is teetering on the brink right now...This will cause a major ripple effect on the quality of MU BB. Anyone that thinks otherwise is a fool.
Oh stop this crap. "We" are not used to seeing Pitt, Cuse and UConn. We've been in the Big East, what, 6 years? How many home games is that for those 3 teams? Jesus tap-dancing Christ! How short are everyone's memories around here? Sure it was nice, and it'd be nice if it could continue...but it's not! Get over it, and try to be a fan who doesnt b**** and moan about not playing a few teams you've only seen 3 or 4 times anyways.
Quote from: muguru on November 24, 2012, 05:47:00 PM
As others have touched on, this is my biggest fear about the proposed "basketball" only league. It's a terrible idea. Ticket sales will drop. It will be a mid major league. especially if people are talking about(as i always see) wanting to bring in SLU & Dayton. Right or wrong, we as ticket holders are used to seeing Pitt, Cuse, Uconn etc. Having us watch SLU, Dayton, Butler etc, does NOTHING for me, and it will do NOTHING for recruiting. You are damn right that MU's BB program is teetering on the brink right now...This will cause a major ripple effect on the quality of MU BB. Anyone that thinks otherwise is a fool.
/quote]
You mean mid-majors like Butler who just beat MU and North Carolina and has gone to 2 recent Final 4's, Saint Louis who manhandled Texas A&M last week and played Kansas tough without the injured Kwamaine Mitchell and Dayton who beat BCS schools Boston College and Auburn recently. All have been in the NCAA in the past 4 years. Xavier is a no-brainer and maybe Temple is added if they can't find a match in football in another conference and they and Villanova can agree to play in a conference together.
Some of you guys have no clue about NCAA basketball history.
Or how about Marquette, who made the Final Four as a mid-major less than a decade ago.
Quote from: Aughnanure on November 24, 2012, 05:20:12 PM
If Boise, SDSU bail does that make it more likely Houston and SMU do the same? That would be as good as a final nail in the coffin to the BEAST.
Very likely
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on November 24, 2012, 06:45:29 PM
Or how about Marquette, who made the Final Four as a mid-major less than a decade ago.
Marquette was NOT a mid-major in '03, nor were they ever referred to as one.
Conference USA was a very underrated conference in the late '90's/early '00's. The bottom stunk, that was the problem.
Quote from: TedBaxter on November 24, 2012, 06:41:45 PM
Quote from: muguru on November 24, 2012, 05:47:00 PM
As others have touched on, this is my biggest fear about the proposed "basketball" only league. It's a terrible idea. Ticket sales will drop. It will be a mid major league. especially if people are talking about(as i always see) wanting to bring in SLU & Dayton. Right or wrong, we as ticket holders are used to seeing Pitt, Cuse, Uconn etc. Having us watch SLU, Dayton, Butler etc, does NOTHING for me, and it will do NOTHING for recruiting. You are damn right that MU's BB program is teetering on the brink right now...This will cause a major ripple effect on the quality of MU BB. Anyone that thinks otherwise is a fool.
/quote]
You mean mid-majors like Butler who just beat MU and North Carolina and has gone to 2 recent Final 4's, Saint Louis who manhandled Texas A&M last week and played Kansas tough without the injured Kwamaine Mitchell and Dayton who beat BCS schools Boston College and Auburn recently. All have been in the NCAA in the past 4 years. Xavier is a no-brainer and maybe Temple is added if they can't find a match in football in another conference and they and Villanova can agree to play in a conference together.
Some of you guys have no clue about NCAA basketball history.
I'm well aware of BB history. Butler is ok, but what the hell is everyone's infatuation with SLU and Dayton?? Wow! Dayton beat BC and Auburn?? two of the worst BCS BB schools in the country. 10 of us from this board could give those teams games. Xavier I agree with as well as Temple. But SLU and Dayton?? Yuck! IF this BB only league HAS to happen, then this is who i would pick, and a few fb schools as well that have no other place to go.
MU
Georgetown
Xavier
Memphis(football)
Butler
Villanova
SJU
Temple(Football)
Gonzaga
Providence(but they do NOTHING for me)
UMASS(I'll hold my nose and take them)
VCU
Seton Hall(Yuck)
Creighton
Wichita State
I'm not taking DePaul, they can go play in a league more befitting them, like the Southern league or something. I'd take these 15 to start and then MAYBE add someone else later that shows themselves worthy.
Quote from: MUBasketball on November 24, 2012, 07:14:31 PM
Marquette was NOT a mid-major in '03, nor were they ever referred to as one.
OK...then why would they be if they are in a basketball only conference with the likes of Villanova and Georgetown?
I read this entire blog and can not believe how little was mentioned about recruiting. Our recruiting has been great under Buzz because he is good, but I think it helps one heck of a lot when we are on TV for every game. I moved from Wisconsin to Texas before last season and have only had to miss one game each season that was not televised. Being part of the Big East Network and having Directv is great. I even get the games that are on local in Milwaukee.
I think without that type of television coverage, you lose recruits that want their family to see them play.
One of the better blogs for a while, almost everyone staying on subject ;-)
Quote from: muguru on November 24, 2012, 05:47:00 PM
As others have touched on, this is my biggest fear about the proposed "basketball" only league. It's a terrible idea. Ticket sales will drop. It will be a mid major league. especially if people are talking about(as i always see) wanting to bring in SLU & Dayton. Right or wrong, we as ticket holders are used to seeing Pitt, Cuse, Uconn etc. Having us watch SLU, Dayton, Butler etc, does NOTHING for me, and it will do NOTHING for recruiting. You are damn right that MU's BB program is teetering on the brink right now...This will cause a major ripple effect on the quality of MU BB. Anyone that thinks otherwise is a fool.
And the mighty Butler just switched conferences to earn an upgrade of $500K a.year! Hell, MU earns at least that every time a BE football teams leaves. Windfall.
Whatever we do it is important that a great tv deal is part of it. I agree with earlier post on recruiting and the need for families to watch games. Obviously things are moving quickly and hope we land on our feet. Good news is that we had to know these changes were possible for quite some time and our plan better in be place.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on November 24, 2012, 07:52:22 PM
OK...then why would they be if they are in a basketball only conference with the likes of Villanova and Georgetown?
They won't be.
Im on crack, but i am still holding out hope for. The big ten to take on a pair of non football schools to bolster its hoops. Marquette would be a perfect fit. Id rather have that than anything else, but it only matters what the big ten wants.
Niv
Hope you are right. We might need a miracle the way things are shaping up. We have to reach for the stars and not settle. If we go backwards a very tough road ahead of us. We'll see if the brass can pull something off that keeps in top conference.
Quote from: Niv Berkowitz on November 24, 2012, 08:22:29 PM
Im on crack, but i am still holding out hope for. The big ten to take on a pair of non football schools to bolster its hoops. Marquette would be a perfect fit. Id rather have that than anything else, but it only matters what the big ten wants.
Why would they? The Big Ten has shown they are the class of all the conferences. Rumors are they have reached out to UNC and Virginia and may add them to the league.
They can get any school they want...why would they add non-football schools? No point.
A league with Georgetown (Washington, DC), St. John's (New York), Villanova (Philadelphia), Providence (Providence), Seton Hall (NJ/NY), Marquette (Milwaukee), DePaul (Chicago), Xavier (Cincinnati), Butler (Indianapolis), and Creighton (Omaha) will get a good TV contract - much better than the one the A-10 got. If you want to go past 10 teams, Detroit (Detroit), St. Louis (St. Louis), Dayton (Dayton/Cincinnati) and VCU (Richmond/DC) could work too.
Quote from: Niv Berkowitz on November 24, 2012, 08:22:29 PM
Im on crack, but i am still holding out hope for. The big ten to take on a pair of non football schools to bolster its hoops. Marquette would be a perfect fit. Id rather have that than anything else, but it only matters what the big ten wants.
Why would any football conference want a basketball only school? I don't see that happening in any conference. If the bball schools are smart, they will take the lead and form a hoops only "super conference".
"A league with Georgetown (Washington, DC), St. John's (New York), Villanova (Philadelphia), Providence (Providence), Seton Hall (NJ/NY), Marquette (Milwaukee), DePaul (Chicago), Xavier (Cincinnati), Butler (Indianapolis), and Creighton (Omaha) will get a good TV contract - much better than the one the A-10 got. If you want to go past 10 teams, Detroit (Detroit), St. Louis (St. Louis), Dayton (Dayton/Cincinnati) and VCU (Richmond/DC) could work too."
Agree for the most part. My only concern is that chips will continue to fall for quite some time unless the NCAA puts its foot down. I think that we would continue to have defections from that league into the ACC, Big 12, Big 10, etc until all of the major hoops schools are happy. Georgetown, MU, Villanova and St. Johns would be the first to go. The only way I'd be happy with the true "Basketball Only League" scenario is if the NCAA put a stop to realignment for at least 10 years. I would also try to go after a few more teams: Gonzaga, VCU, Witchita State, Butler, St. Mary's, etc. Basically snatch up all the top mid majors that would like to play in a league every bit as deep in hoops as the ACC, Big 10, Big 12, Pac 12 and SEC. But again, the only way that league is safe is if realignment is put to a halt. In reality, that league is going to be looked at in the same light as the mega-conferences. It will still receive 5-8 NCAA bids each season.
With that said, I truly believe that MU would/will be picked up by one of the mega-conferences once all of the dust settles. That may be 10 years down the line, it may be two years down the line, but ultimately Marquette offers enough to be included in one of the mega-conferences.
Quote from: 79Warrior on November 25, 2012, 11:31:50 AM
Why would any football conference what a basketball only school? I don't see that happening in any conference. If the bball schools are smart, they will take the lead and form a hoops only "super conference".
See above.
Quote from: Aughnanure on November 24, 2012, 05:20:12 PM
If Boise, SDSU bail does that make it more likely Houston and SMU do the same? That would be as good as a final nail in the coffin to the BEAST.
Talk now heating up about ACC taking Cincy, Ville AND UConn on Monday:
@bricmiller Just heard from someone tied to Big East, Louisville to the ACC w/ Cincy, UConn to likely follow (deleted since)
"@RiceRadio: I'm hearing Louisville, Cincy, and UConn to #ACC next year."
@jbrinkmeyer Wow, I just got quite the phone call. UConn, UC, and Louisville to join the ACC. To be announced Monday. #bearcats
@jbrinkmeyer: In that call I was told that FSU is the one who wanted to have all 3 invited.
BearcatLair.com@BearcatLair
Far from ready to report it, but this UC to the ACC rumor is coming at me from a lot of different directions right now. Crazy night.
if this happens, say goodbye to Buzz
^ Why?
Quote from: MUBasketball on November 24, 2012, 07:14:31 PM
Marquette was NOT a mid-major in '03, nor were they ever referred to as one.
Actually, there was a Bay Area writer who referred to MU as a mid-major in the mid-late 90's which kicked off a crap storm on the original board. Looking back, he was right. During the Deane years we were a mid-major.
Quote from: Aughnanure on November 25, 2012, 12:01:17 PM
^ Why?
Why would you coach in a league that is falling apart, that has no prospects for gaining ground. If the BEAST falls apart and we don't attach somewhere quick there is no reason for a highly sought after coach who once coached in a major conference to be stuck with a school that is now in a mid-major conference.
Rick Barnes will be on the hot seat soon...
Quote from: Hards_Alumni on November 25, 2012, 12:03:37 PM
Why would you coach in a league that is falling apart, that has no prospects for gaining ground. If the BEAST falls apart and we don't attach somewhere quick there is no reason for a highly sought after coach who once coached in a major conference to be stuck with a school that is now in a mid-major conference.
Rick Barnes will be on the hot seat soon...
Wow.
Quote from: Hards_Alumni on November 25, 2012, 12:03:37 PM
Why would you coach in a league that is falling apart, that has no prospects for gaining ground. If the BEAST falls apart and we don't attach somewhere quick there is no reason for a highly sought after coach who once coached in a major conference to be stuck with a school that is now in a mid-major conference.
Rick Barnes will be on the hot seat soon...
What if Buzz turns down the Texas job once Barnes is canned this year?
Quote from: Hards_Alumni on November 25, 2012, 12:03:37 PM
Why would you coach in a league that is falling apart, that has no prospects for gaining ground. If the BEAST falls apart and we don't attach somewhere quick there is no reason for a highly sought after coach who once coached in a major conference to be stuck with a school that is now in a mid-major conference.
Rick Barnes will be on the hot seat soon...
Ridiculous. So a conference full of major programs would suddenly become mid-major? How exactly does that happen?
Below is my proposed new conference (including 2 football schools that can park their programs in other conferences...C-USA, MAC, etc):
Marquette
DePaul
Georgetown
Villanova
St. John's
Providence
Seton Hall
Xavier
Memphis
Temple
Tell me, is that a mid-major conference? That's a very good conference (assuming DePaul can eventually get their sh*t together, which would help immensely).
Quote from: Hards_Alumni on November 25, 2012, 12:03:37 PM
Why would you coach in a league that is falling apart, that has no prospects for gaining ground. If the BEAST falls apart and we don't attach somewhere quick there is no reason for a highly sought after coach who once coached in a major conference to be stuck with a school that is now in a mid-major conference.
Rick Barnes will be on the hot seat soon...
Just fundamentally disagree. The money won't actually change much. We will still be able to pay. And this conference would still be better than the PAC-12...not a mid-major. I'm sorry you view everything with such a negative pessimistic disdain.
Quote from: MUBasketball on November 25, 2012, 12:24:36 PM
Ridiculous. So a conference full of major programs would suddenly become mid-major? How exactly does that happen?
Below is my proposed new conference (including 2 football schools that can park their programs in other conferences...C-USA, MAC, etc):
Marquette
DePaul
Georgetown
Villanova
St. John's
Providence
Seton Hall
Xavier
Memphis
Temple
Tell me, is that a mid-major conference? That's a very good conference (assuming DePaul can eventually get their sh*t together, which would help immensely).
Really don't think a school with a football program will park their basketball team in a different conference, much less be allowed to by the conference that grabs their other sports. Memphis will park their basketball in the best football conference they can get into.
Take 2 or all of St. Louis, Creighton, Butler, and Richmond and call it a day.
Quote from: Aughnanure on November 25, 2012, 01:01:04 PM
Really don't think a school with a football program will park their basketball team in a different conference, much less be allowed to by the conference that grabs their other sports. Memphis will park their basketball in the best football conference they can get into.
Take 2 or all of St. Louis, Creighton, Butler, and Richmond and call it a day.
You might be right, but I doubt it. No power conference will want Memphis or Temple. So where are they going to go? Off the top of my head, Conference USA or the Mid-American Conference would be the main options.
But, C-USA has added future members for the schools departing. So here is the league in the future:
UAB
East Carolina
Marshall
Southern Miss
Rice
UTEP
Tulane
Tulsa
Charlotte
Florida International
Louisiana Tech
North Texas
Old Dominion
Texas-San Antonio
Now I ask you...would Memphis or Temple turn down the league I proposed above to be an all-sports member in the new C-USA? Or the MAC?
Memphis couldn't wait to get out of the current C-USA...and the newer version is worse than the current one. And Temple competed in Big East football this season, while all other sports are finishing up in the A-10. Prior to this season, they were an A-10 member for all sports but football, which was in the MAC.
Quote from: MUBasketball on November 25, 2012, 01:08:41 PM
You might be right, but I doubt it. No power conference will want Memphis or Temple. So where are they going to go? Off the top of my head, Conference USA or the Mid-American Conference would be the main options.
But, C-USA has added future members for the schools departing. So here is the league in the future:
UAB
East Carolina
Marshall
Southern Miss
Rice
UTEP
Tulane
Tulsa
Charlotte
Florida International
Louisiana Tech
North Texas
Old Dominion
Texas-San Antonio
Now I ask you...would Memphis or Temple turn down the league I proposed above to be an all-sports member in the new C-USA? Or the MAC?
Memphis couldn't wait to get out of the current C-USA...and the newer version is worse than the current one. And Temple competed in Big East football this season, while all other sports are finishing up in the A-10. Prior to this season, they were an A-10 member for all sports but football, which was in the MAC.
I get your point, but I think realignment is going to trickle down to mid-major conference eventually. the MWC-CUSA merger idea started getting talked about last year. Programs like Boise, UNLV, BYU, SMU, Houston, SDSU, East Carolina, So Miss, Tulsa, UCF, USF (and Temple) would be a conference Memphis would want to be associated with if they ever had hopes for their football program (remember, Memphis can be considered for an east coast or west coast conference).
I just don't see them giving up on football completely, which is what they'd be doing by going into a bball-only league. Plus, don;t forget about UMass and Charlotte too, who were moving up in football and leaving the A10 because of it.
It would be nice to think we could add UNLV, BYU, Memphis, Temple, UMass into the league - I just wouldn't count on it and would start getting used to the idea of something like this:
EASTSt. John's
Seton Hall
Providence
Richmond
Georgetown
Villanova
WEST
Xavier
Creighton
Butler
St. Louis
DePaul
Marquette
Quote from: Aughnanure on November 25, 2012, 12:57:56 PM
Just fundamentally disagree. The money won't actually change much. We will still be able to pay. And this conference would still be better than the PAC-12...not a mid-major. I'm sorry you view everything with such a negative pessimistic disdain.
It isn't negative or pessimistic (everything? Do you even read half of my posts?) it realistic.
We can all dream here which conference we will be in and if we will call it the BEAST or whatever. At the end of the day, the big boys are playing football, and basketball is a nice secondary sport to have in the winter for students to follow. If you honestly think that some of the schools that you have listed are going to create a basketball only conference while they have football programs, I don't know what to tell you.
Except you are totally off your nut. Wanting something so badly does not make it likely to happen. Half the schools you guys have listed have football (albeit crappy ones).
Furthermore, if you take the schools that have basketball ONLY... you have:
St. John's
Seton Hall
Providence
Richmond
Georgetown
Villanova (for now)
Xavier
Creighton
Butler
St. Louis
DePaul
Marquette
and you really think that isn't a mid major conference? Who are the major schools? Marquette, Villanova, Xavier, Butler, and Georgetown When is the last time ANY of those other schools weren't perennial doormats in their conferences? Even if most people don't consider this a mid major conference, what is it? It is at best the WORST major conference... and it isn't even close. What is going to happen when money from the big schools and big alumni bases we have lost isn't there anymore? What happens when no one wants to pay us a ton of money to be on TV anymore?
Look, I want this to shake out in a very positive way, but I just don't see it happening.
Seems to me a lot of people are more upset about the term "mid-major" than they are about the prospect of having to play in a conference headlined by GTown, Nova, Butler, Xavier, etc.
Sticks and stones, people. You think Butler fans are going Napoleonic because North Carolina fans called them a low-major as recently as 6 days ago?
Quote from: brewcity77 on November 24, 2012, 06:44:24 AM
So I got to thinking this morning...if the Big East dissolved, what if we all started a true basketball-only league? What I mean is, a nationwide league for basketball programs only. All other sports, like lacrosse, soccer, golf, volleyball, and others would be parked in another conference that was more local to cut down on travel costs for all schools involved. The Horizon, MAC, MVC...doesn't really matter.
ONLY basketball plays in this new league. And basketball programs could afford the travel. We could realistically look at a conference with teams like Georgetown, Villanova, Marquette, Gonzaga, Creighton, Wichita State, and St John's. Hell, even if schools wanted they could leave their football behind. San Diego State, Memphis, even Duke if they get left out in all the shuffling would be welcome.
Would it be worth losing the Big East affiliation for all other sports to create a true basketball super-conference?
Boy, we'd even be willing to take Duke? That would be big of us.
Quote from: Hards_Alumni on November 25, 2012, 03:15:12 PM
It isn't negative or pessimistic (everything? Do you even read half of my posts?) it realistic.
We can all dream here which conference we will be in and if we will call it the BEAST or whatever. At the end of the day, the big boys are playing football, and basketball is a nice secondary sport to have in the winter for students to follow. If you honestly think that some of the schools that you have listed are going to create a basketball only conference while they have football programs, I don't know what to tell you.
Except you are totally off your nut. Wanting something so badly does not make it likely to happen. Half the schools you guys have listed have football (albeit crappy ones).
Furthermore, if you take the schools that have basketball ONLY... you have:
St. John's
Seton Hall
Providence
Richmond
Georgetown
Villanova (for now)
Xavier
Creighton
Butler
St. Louis
DePaul
Marquette
When, in any of my posts, did I suggest any schools playing D1 football would join a basketball only league? Jesus, I was refuting a previous poster's assertion that that could happen. Maybe you should read my posts before getting all huffy about a point I didn't make. But just to be clear - No, I don't think BYU, Memphis, etc are part of our future bball-only conference.
Quote from: Hards_Alumni on November 25, 2012, 03:15:12 PM
and you really think that isn't a mid major conference? Who are the major schools? Marquette, Villanova, Xavier, Butler, and Georgetown When is the last time ANY of those other schools weren't perennial doormats in their conferences?
Look, I want this to shake out in a very positive way, but I just don't see it happening.
So Marquette, Nova, Xavier, Butler, GTown are perennial doormats? I'm going to assume that's not want you meant to write.
But moving on, so having 5 major schools isn't enough to make a conference major. Jeez, how many conferences meet your expectations then? How many schools do you need?
Big 12: Kansas, Texas, West Virginia (cause of Huggy), Baylor is pushing it
B1G: Michigan St, Michigan, Ohio St, Indiana, Illinois, Maryland now
ACC: Cuse, Duke, Pitt, UNC, UConn/Ville?, NC State
PAC 12: Arizona, UCLA, Stanford
SEC: Kentucky, Vanderbilt, Florida, no Mizzou doesn't count, Arkansas
BBallOnly: Marquette, Xavier, Butler, Georgetown, St. John's, Villanova, Creighton
You don't think that matches up decently? Fine. But I think you're hearing big state school names that are good at football and making that = major status.
nm
Quote from: Hards_Alumni on November 25, 2012, 03:15:12 PM
Even if most people don't consider this a mid major conference, what is it? It is at best the WORST major conference... and it isn't even close. What is going to happen when money from the big schools and big alumni bases we have lost isn't there anymore? What happens when no one wants to pay us a ton of money to be on TV anymore?
Look, I want this to shake out in a very positive way, but I just don't see it happening.
Everything comes from your preconceived notion that if we don't play those teams that we've only played FOR 6 F****** YEARS that's it's an epic disaster. It was nice while it lasted, but it's not going to last. Get over it. This is still better than any conference before the Big East (which was arguably the greatest basketball conference ever constructed for those first 5 years...shocking we might have to feel a pinch of degradation). And no, this ain't the worst major conference. PAC-12 is better? No. SEC? Outside Vanderbilt, Florida, Kentucky what is the SEC?
This conference would compete as the 4th to 6th best conference every year, and maybe grow even higher with the top-bottom strength.
Quote from: Hards_Alumni on November 25, 2012, 03:15:12 PM
Furthermore, if you take the schools that have basketball ONLY... you have:
St. John's
Seton Hall
Providence
Richmond
Georgetown
Villanova (for now)
Xavier
Creighton
Butler
St. Louis
DePaul
Marquette
and you really think that isn't a mid major conference?
Assuming the conference above, according to the Sagarin Rankings for 2011-12 that conference would have an adjusted ranking of 80.73. That would have ranked FOURTH only behind the Big Ten, Big East (which would be lower w/o schools above), and Big Twelve.
Some other things of note about that conference:
- Would have had five NCAA bids, more than PAC-12 and SEC, and tied with ACC
- Would have had two Sweet Sixteen teams, no less than other major conferences
Quote from: Aughnanure on November 25, 2012, 05:13:57 PM
Everything comes from your preconceived notion that if we don't play those teams that we've only played FOR 6 F****** YEARS that's it's an epic disaster. It was nice while it lasted, but it's not going to last. Get over it. This is still better than any conference before the Big East (which was arguably the greatest basketball conference ever constructed for those first 5 years...shocking we might have to feel a pinch of degradation). And no, this ain't the worst major conference. PAC-12 is better? No. SEC? Outside Vanderbilt, Florida, Kentucky what is the SEC?
This conference would compete as the 4th to 6th best conference every year, and maybe grow even higher with the top-bottom strength.
You hit the nail on the head....the 4th-6th best conference. When you played in the best BB conference ever assembled for 6+ years, going to consistently the 4th-6th best IS a downgrade in the program, is it not???
Quote from: Aughnanure on November 25, 2012, 05:10:50 PM
When, in any of my posts, did I suggest any schools playing D1 football would join a basketball only league? Jesus, I was refuting a previous poster's assertion that that could happen. Maybe you should read my posts before getting all huffy about a point I didn't make. But just to be clear - No, I don't think BYU, Memphis, etc are part of our future bball-only conference.
So Marquette, Nova, Xavier, Butler, GTown are perennial doormats? I'm going to assume that's not want you meant to write.
But moving on, so having 5 major schools isn't enough to make a conference major. Jeez, how many conferences meet your expectations then? How many schools do you need?
Big 12: Kansas, Texas, West Virginia (cause of Huggy), Baylor is pushing it
B1G: Michigan St, Michigan, Ohio St, Indiana, Illinois, Maryland now
ACC: Cuse, Duke, Pitt, UNC, UConn/Ville?, NC State
PAC 12: Arizona, UCLA, Stanford
SEC: Kentucky, Vanderbilt, Florida, no Mizzou doesn't count, Arkansas
BBallOnly: Marquette, Xavier, Butler, Georgetown, St. John's, Villanova, Creighton
You don't think that matches up decently? Fine. But I think you're hearing big state school names that are good at football and making that = major status.
Thats why I wrote ANY other.
And no, it doesn't match up decently. Creighton is having a nice run this year but they aren't anything special. St. Johns? really, we are counting them?
Quote from: MarquetteDano on November 25, 2012, 07:00:05 PM
Assuming the conference above, according to the Sagarin Rankings for 2011-12 that conference would have an adjusted ranking of 80.73. That would have ranked FOURTH only behind the Big Ten, Big East (which would be lower w/o schools above), and Big Twelve.
Some other things of note about that conference:
- Would have had five NCAA bids, more than PAC-12 and SEC, and tied with ACC
- Would have had two Sweet Sixteen teams, no less than other major conferences
Cool Story bro, now put Pitt, Cuse, Uconn all in the ACC, I'd be willing to bet they'd leapfrog and make the "basketball only" conference 5th. Whoopie, slightly better than the PAC-12. In 5 years the conference will fall to 6th, and be the best mid-major conference in the land.
Creighton has never been anything resembling a doormat in the MVC. Additionally, they've been to the NCAA tournament 8 times since 1999. Richmond has made it three times since then. Providence twice. So it's not like these teams are all doormats.
Quote from: Hards_Alumni on November 25, 2012, 09:33:14 PM
Thats why I wrote ANY other.
And no, it doesn't match up decently. Creighton is having a nice run this year but they aren't anything special. St. Johns? really, we are counting them?
Check all-time wins...and remember how ESPN went nuts when there was even the possibility of them being good.
Quote from: muguru on November 25, 2012, 07:18:13 PM
You hit the nail on the head....the 4th-6th best conference. When you played in the best BB conference ever assembled for 6+ years, going to consistently the 4th-6th best IS a downgrade in the program, is it not???
Yeah, and we finished in the top 3 once. Is that a downgrade? Always being a top 6-8 team? Slightly over .500%? I'm not arguing it is, but you're acting like anything different than that is the f***ing end-of-the-world. Our program grade is not based simply on our conference. Get over it, there are no other options, and guess what, it is still an upgrade over where we were before the BE. We will survive.
Quote from: SqueallyDRyan on November 25, 2012, 09:41:30 PM
Creighton has never been anything resembling a doormat in the MVC. Additionally, they've been to the NCAA tournament 8 times since 1999. Richmond has made it three times since then. Providence twice. So it's not like these teams are all doormats.
I like Richmond over VCU because they have $1+ billion endowment and they're private (the one thing all the other schools would share).
Quote from: Hards_Alumni on November 25, 2012, 09:35:47 PM
Cool Story bro, now put Pitt, Cuse, Uconn all in the ACC, I'd be willing to bet they'd leapfrog and make the "basketball only" conference 5th. Whoopie, slightly better than the PAC-12. In 5 years the conference will fall to 6th, and be the best mid-major conference in the land.
If that all happens, the new conference would be 4th since the Big East would, in essence, be gone as the new conference would be still ahead of the SEC and PAC-12.
The biggest issue with the new conference you posted (excluding the tv deal issue) is not having a blue blood team like the other conferences would have (ACC: UNC/Duke, Big 12: Kansas, SEC: Kentucky, Big Ten: Indiana, Pac-12: UCLA, etc.).
However the 4th best conference is not exactly Mid Major territory.
Quote from: Aughnanure on November 25, 2012, 09:59:32 PM
I like Richmond over VCU because they have $1+ billion endowment
Tobacco money