The Eric Williams thread got me thinking about transfers. How many of them made their situation better by transferring.
So, here is a list players that logged at least one minute for Buzz and then transferred. I restricted the list to this criteria because these transfers are typically basketball related. ** I also made some comments.
Player Transferred To: Comments
Jeronne Maymon Tennessee Out until Dec, recovering from knee surgery
Reggie Smith Eastern Illinois Left UNLV, sitting out another year
Mbao Marshall Two games this year, not starting, 9.5 mins, 0 points
Eric Williams Sam Houston State Logged zero minutes this year
Jamail Jones Florida Gulf Coast Still sitting out
Pat Hazell Boston University Starter, Captain, Improved his situation
Pat Hazel did improve his basketball situation at a lesser school, where he was better suited. So, from a basketball prospective, his move made his basketball career better.
As far as the rest, I cannot make the case that any of them made their situation better. The closets might be Jmay put he is still best described as "potential lost." Others, like Reggie Smith, are spiraling downward in a hurry.
What about Transfers In? Here are the three to transferred to MU and logged at least 1 minute.
Player Transferred From Comment
Jamil Wilson Oregon S16 starter, starter this year, showing NBA potential
Jake Thomas South Dakota Playing but too early to call
Trent Lockett Arizona State Starting but too early to call
I could make the case that all three have equaled (Lockett) or improved (Thomas and Wilson) their basket situation. All tree are at least "not worse" for transferring.
Let this serve as a warning for those that want to leave. Prior transfers are largely road kill. Better to stay and make the best than leave.
Thoughts?
** I decided to leave transfers that never logged a minute because their situations were more complicated, and sometimes not basketball related. This list includes; Nick Williams, Ty Taylor, Scotty C, Roseboro, Mbawke, McMurrow, Singleton, Durley and Newbill.
Obviously not all transfers are considered a "success", but there is more to a transfer than just basketball performance.
This isn't pro-sports.
Trent Lockett's transfer is already a success because he's closer to home and take grad classes that ASU didn't offer.
I don't know if all of MU's former players are happy with their decisions, but I don't think we can make that call from just looking at the box score.
(I know, I'm a wet blanket, sorry.)
Christopherson and Mbawke played at least a minute for MU I believe.
That's why I restricted the list to players that logged 1 minute for Buzz. The TJ Taylors and Liam McMurrows had non-basketball issues. But the JMays and Reggie Smith's of the world at least publicly claimed they left because of playing time.
So yes their are always non-basketball issues. But in these cases, it was largely about basketball.
(even Lockett, if it was only about be closer to home, why not play at Minnesota?)
Quote from: MARQ_13 on November 16, 2012, 12:11:31 PM
Christopherson and Mbawke played at least a minute for MU I believe.
Not for Buzz
I'm not sure that this list leads to your conclusion. Maymon was excellent for Tennesse last year and injuries can happen anywhere. Hazell made a good move as you pointed out. Not sure how things will turn out for Reggie Smith. Mbao was never going to contribute at Marquette (or anywhere else it seems). Too early to tell on Erik Williams and Jamail, although I think Jamail could have helped us this year. Transferring is always a risk that comes with some uncertainty, but all of these guys saw it as the right move at the time and I can't say I disagree with many of them. As for the guys coming in, I think Jamil made the right move. Glad to have the others but too early to tell how successful they will be.
I did not say JMay was not a good player and if he stayed to have his senior leadership would have been huge.
I'm asking if him leaving because Buzz was not playing him at the 2 (what his dad said) improved his basketball career.
The answer is no, he did not accomplish the goals he wanted in leaving. He did play well, but he did not improve his basketball situation over MU.
Quote from: AnotherMU84 on November 16, 2012, 12:40:39 PM
I did not say JMay was not a good player and if he stayed to have his senior leadership would have huge.
I'm asking if him leaving because Buzz was not playing him at the 2 (what his dad said) improved his basketball career.
The answer is no, he did not accomplish the goals he wanted in leaving. He did play well, but he did not improve his basketball situation over MU.
That fact that he's 10 hours farther away from his father has helped his basketball career and likely his quality of life.
Quote from: AnotherMU84 on November 16, 2012, 12:13:16 PM
Not for Buzz
Technically, they did--Buzz was an assistant when they played for MU.
But in the larger sense, so what? If you're trying to make the case that transferring leads to "road kill", then it shouldn't matter whether they played for Buzz as a head coach previously or not, or whether there were "complicated" or "non-basketball related" factors.
After all, you were more than willing to include Lockett, even though his transfer was non-basketball related. And Jamil Wilson's was the result of a coaching change at his former school.
Second, you didn't consider the nature of Marquette relative our place in college basketball. The same argument you're making could be said about Duke, UNC, Kansas, etc. Very few transfers in, more transfers out--and almost always you can claim that they didn't achieve what they wanted initially (which was probably to become a star at Duke, UNC, Kansas, etc.). Our outbound players are almost always going to go to a lower level programs--just like any other transfer from a high-major.
Finally, we need to acknowledge the truth that the reason why most transfers leave a program like Duke, UNC, Kansas, and yes, even Marquette, is that they get a gentile nudge if not an outright declaration that their scholie isn't going to be renewed. Do you really want to make the case that a player like Mbao had the option to stay but made a mistake, therefore the next Mbao should choose to stay?
What about Blackledge?
I think he bettered his situation by coming here and got decent minutes right?
Blackledge was a junior college player and also played for Crean.
Hazel was forced out, because he got in trouble.
I think Mbao increased his situation. he would be getting almost no playing time here with Otule and Gardner.
I would argue Wilson would of started as a sophomore at Oregon instead of sitting out here two years ago. He would of started last year as a junior at Oregon instead of being a replacement starter here as a sophomore. Of course he might not of played in NCAA last year and most certainly would not of gotten to Sweet 16. I think the extra year and higher competition increases his chance of making the NBA. So stats wise he would have had it better if he stayed at Oregon, but he is playing on a better team. The same goes for Thomas. He will probably average 3 to 5 pts in 2 seasons of back up at MU. Had he not transferred he would be been a starting and probably average 15. Lockett would have been better staying at ASU were he would of been a star versus a very good role player here.
Quote from: bilsu on November 16, 2012, 05:46:32 PM
Blackledge was a junior college player and also played for Crean.
Hazel was forced out, because he got in trouble.
I think Mbao increased his situation. he would be getting almost no playing time here with Otule and Gardner.
I would argue Wilson would of started as a sophomore at Oregon instead of sitting out here two years ago. He would of started last year as a junior at Oregon instead of being a replacement starter here as a sophomore. Of course he might not of played in NCAA last year and most certainly would not of gotten to Sweet 16. I think the extra year and higher competition increases his chance of making the NBA. So stats wise he would have had it better if he stayed at Oregon, but he is playing on a better team. The same goes for Thomas. He will probably average 3 to 5 pts in 2 seasons of back up at MU. Had he not transferred he would be been a starting and probably average 15. Lockett would have been better staying at ASU were he would of been a star versus a very good role player here.
Lockett is going to be more than "a very good role player" for Marquette this season.
Quote from: AnotherMU84 on November 16, 2012, 12:12:54 PM
That's why I restricted the list to players that logged 1 minute for Buzz. The TJ Taylors and Liam McMurrows had non-basketball issues. But the JMays and Reggie Smith's of the world at least publicly claimed they left because of playing time.
So yes their are always non-basketball issues. But in these cases, it was largely about basketball.
(even Lockett, if it was only about be closer to home, why not play at Minnesota?)
Tubby didn't have a schollie open after Trevor came back.
Honest question...wasn't TJ Taylor able to play for UNT this year? Is he currently hurt, or what happened?
Quote from: JamilJaeJamailJrJuan on November 17, 2012, 01:46:41 PM
Honest question...wasn't TJ Taylor able to play for UNT this year? Is he currently hurt, or what happened?
Shoulder injury.
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on November 16, 2012, 09:47:23 PM
Lockett is going to be more than "a very good role player" for Marquette this season.
Yeah no kidding...the guy is starting.
Quote from: The Equalizer on November 16, 2012, 01:03:23 PM
Technically, they did--Buzz was an assistant when they played for MU.
But in the larger sense, so what? If you're trying to make the case that transferring leads to "road kill", then it shouldn't matter whether they played for Buzz as a head coach previously or not, or whether there were "complicated" or "non-basketball related" factors.
How about this; instead of telling someone else that they should be included, you do it for them and enlighten us as to how much they improved their lot by leaving.