MUScoop
MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: PaintTouchesSays on November 15, 2012, 01:15:07 PM
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Analyzing Vander Blue’s early offensive struggles
Written by: Andrei Greska
It is no secret that junior Vander Blue has gotten off to a slow start on the offensive end this season. This is the part of the analysis where I strictly outline that this is a dive solely into his … Continue reading → (http://painttouches.com/2012/11/15/analyzing-vander-blues-early-offensive-struggles/)
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http://painttouches.com/2012/11/15/analyzing-vander-blues-early-offensive-struggles/
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Wow, this is some great analysis. I really enjoyed it.
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Interesting.
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Wow, this is some great analysis. I really enjoyed it.
+1
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Excellent article and analysis.
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Nice article and analysis, only issue is you state "Overall his offense hasn't been terrible". But yes it has.
Hope he gets its going soon, like to see him succeed. If he doesn't, he will scrutinized big time.
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Not sure why we need a detailed analysis on this topic. I'll give you the condensed version: Vander Blue can't shoot. It's that simple. He has no offensive game whatsoever. He can't stick a jump shot and he can't hit a layup. He gives good effort and plays tough D, but he is a complete liability on offense. At this stage, it's not going to change. He is what he is. And with his offensive limitations, any NBA talk is laughable.
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Excellent article. The reason AG argues his offense hasn't been terrible is because he isn't taking many ill-advised shots and most of them are mainly on target, just slightly missing the mark. I remember two years ago people getting worried about DJO early on because before the Milwaukee game he wasn't putting up big numbers, and he ended up leading the team in scoring. I still think Blue will settle in and get 10-12 ppg this year, which will be fine on a team where we have 4-5 guys that could score double-digits.
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The reason AG argues his offense hasn't been terrible is because he isn't taking many ill-advised shots and most of them are mainly on target, just slightly missing the mark.
You got me pegged to a T, Brew. Exactly what I was thinking. The only bad shots he has taken is a weird hook, a jumper off the dribble, and the charge (the finger roll could also be in play for this category but at least it was late in the shot clock). The rest didn't go in, but they weren't bad shots.
It's very early in the season to make any concrete judgments, but I just wanted to see why he wasn't scoring. I agree he isn't a good shooter, but I don't think he has to be good, just adequate. I will look at this again in a few games to see where he's at.
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Excellent article. The reason AG argues his offense hasn't been terrible is because he isn't taking many ill-advised shots and most of them are mainly on target, just slightly missing the mark. I remember two years ago people getting worried about DJO early on because before the Milwaukee game he wasn't putting up big numbers, and he ended up leading the team in scoring. I still think Blue will settle in and get 10-12 ppg this year, which will be fine on a team where we have 4-5 guys that could score double-digits.
You don't get points for being close. Who cares whether his shots rim out or they miss everything? Bottom line: he's shooting 20% and that's horrible. I'd feel better if he at least had some feel around the hoop, but he doesn't. Blue has the quickness to get the basket, but he can't do anything once he gets there.
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Well then why worry about anything? We're 2-0, so everything must be going along perfectly :)
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Analyzing Vander Blue’s early offensive struggles
Written by: Andrei Greska
It is no secret that junior Vander Blue has gotten off to a slow start on the offensive end this season. This is the part of the analysis where I strictly outline that this is a dive solely into his … Continue reading → (http://painttouches.com/2012/11/15/analyzing-vander-blues-early-offensive-struggles/)
(http://stats.wordpress.com/b.gif?host=painttouches.com&blog=28348875&post=4733&subd=painttouches&ref=&feed=1)
http://painttouches.com/2012/11/15/analyzing-vander-blues-early-offensive-struggles/
Nice work.
I actually think his stroke looks good from the waist up. His lower body looks disjointed from what his upper is trying to do. Given that he shoots a good percentage from the free throw line, I think he has the hand-eye coordination to be a serviceable shooter.
Around the rim, he doesn't have good feel. I thought some more strength and experience would help him with that. It hasn't (yet). Dwyane was uber strong as utilized his jump stop better than anybody. Jimmy had great ball control and could absorb contact. DJO could change directions/hands in the blink of an eye.
Vander doesn't have a signature ability/move in the lane. He wants to go right, jumps, and then whatever happens, happens. I hope the game slows down for a him a little bit. Still plenty of time for a breakthrough. It sounds silly, but he still probably has to learn to slow down a little and use some body control to finish instead of speed.
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I've personally given up any hope of VB ever being a shooter and/or scorer. His FT stroke looks improved and he's shooting them with confidence, so that's improvement. But for two, (going on three), years he hasn't been able to finish at point blank range. Do most honestly think he's suddenly going to become a scorer?
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Nice work.
It sounds silly, but he still probably has to learn to slow down a little and use some body control to finish instead of speed.
Agreed. We've had a couple of guys who needed to gather themselves just a bit around the rim in the first two games. VB is certainly one. I've thought JC has needed to be a bit more under control as well.
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I actually think his stroke looks good from the waist up. His lower body looks disjointed from what his upper is trying to do.
On his jumpers, he still seems to push the ball more than shooting it. There's a bit of a hitch in his shot. It certainly looks better than it did a year ago, but I think him becoming an average shooter would be a great accomplishment.
I've personally given up any hope of VB ever being a shooter and/or scorer. His FT stroke looks improved and he's shooting them with confidence, so that's improvement. But for two, (going on three), years he hasn't been able to finish at point blank range. Do most honestly think he's suddenly going to become a scorer?
I think it depends on your definition of scorer. I think in general he will score 10-12 ppg. Every now and then he'll lead the team in scoring. He'll never be a night-in night-out 50% shooter hitting 35% from beyond the arc while piling up 16+ ppg, but when you have as many guys that can go for double digits as we do, that's okay.
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Shooting ~20% VB is going to miss 80% of his shots. That is a lot of misses you are asking this team to absorb. Shooting ~80% from the line, his/our best hope is to get fouled on a drive/shot. He must overcome his deficiencies in all other areas to be successful, or as some say complete.
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On his jumpers, he still seems to push the ball more than shooting it. There's a bit of a hitch in his shot. It certainly looks better than it did a year ago, but I think him becoming an average shooter would be a great accomplishment.
I think it depends on your definition of scorer. I think in general he will score 10-12 ppg. Every now and then he'll lead the team in scoring. He'll never be a night-in night-out 50% shooter hitting 35% from beyond the arc while piling up 16+ ppg, but when you have as many guys that can go for double digits as we do, that's okay.
Vander has a lot of value to this team. My statement was not intended to devalue what he brings. Unlike some who seem to think the measure of a player is based mostly on their ability to score, I see what he brings. I'm simply saying I've given up on the idea that this team will ever rely on him to be a first, second or maybe even third option to score. And while that's a little disappointing given his expectations coming out of highschool, it's not to say he isn't very valuable.
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People can laugh all they want, but Vander has NBA talent. A shot can be taught. Out of this world athleticism, size, and instincts can't.
Remember, the NBA doesn't draft the best college players... they draft athletes.
If you give Vander time and a proper coach to recreate his shot, and the time it takes... he could be very good.
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People can laugh all they want, but Vander has NBA talent. A shot can be taught. Out of this world athleticism, size, and instincts can't.
Remember, the NBA doesn't draft the best college players... they draft athletes.
If you give Vander time and a proper coach to recreate his shot, and the time it takes... he could be very good.
Then why not just draft Usain Bolt? So VB can run and jump....yippee. At some point, you need to put the ball in the hoop....and VB is unable to do that from either long or close range. Plenty of guys have his athleticism in the NBA....but they can also hit a jumper. That's why they're in the NBA...and not in the D-League or in Europe.
Listen, I'm glad VB has a dream. But that's really all it is. There is no possible way he makes it to the NBA.
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People can laugh all they want, but Vander has NBA talent. A shot can be taught. Out of this world athleticism, size, and instincts can't.
Remember, the NBA doesn't draft the best college players... they draft athletes.
If you give Vander time and a proper coach to recreate his shot, and the time it takes... he could be very good.
Your logic is valid yet Blue has to see the need and have the desire. He should have realized after his freshman year that his athleticism alone was not sufficient at this level and worked over the summer to re-engineer his jump shot. He had a second chance to do this over the last summer, and, to his credit it does look like he's done some work on it. Early reviews were encouraging, though clearly his offense in the initial two games was deficient.
It's still early and I'm an optimist (its more fun). Anyway, hopefully Blue sees it this way as well, for his sake and ours.
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People can laugh all they want, but Vander has NBA talent. A shot can be taught. Out of this world athleticism, size, and instincts can't.
Remember, the NBA doesn't draft the best college players... they draft athletes.
If you give Vander time and a proper coach to recreate his shot, and the time it takes... he could be very good.
You're delusional
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Jimmy Butler's role on the Bulls is as a defensive specialist. But there's no question that Jimmy had superior offensive skills relative to Vander at this stage in their development.
I have great respect for Vander however. He came in to the program as the highly touted recruit and would certainly admit that he had some growing up to do early on. Everything I've heard about Vander as an upperclassman is that he's a hard working kid trying to be a leader and do things the right way. What I think we're all a bit frustrated with is that we've yet to develop a #1 or #2 scorer (with the exception of DG) and that we'd like one or two of Trent, J Will, or Vander to emerge. Perhaps Buzz is still learning how to get these guys in the position that best suits their ability. MU notoriously doesn't particularly offensive gameplan for the early non-conference 'cupcakes'. We see it every year.
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jsglow
+1
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If you give Vander time and a proper coach to recreate his shot, and the time it takes... he could be very good.
So, Marquette doesn't have a "proper coach" or there hasn't been enough time to refine Vander's shot? I'm hoping for improvement this year, but there's no sign of that in the first 2 games(given that is a very small sample).
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You know, some people simply can't shoot no matter how hard they work. And my understanding is that Vander has been working very hard at it. He may not have the touch even if his form is perfect.
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Geez lay off the kid, be happy for what he does well and move on, sheesh.
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People can laugh all they want, but Vander has NBA talent. A shot can be taught. Out of this world athleticism, size, and instincts can't.
I disagree with the premise that given outstanding athleticism all you need to do is work hard to make the NBA. I'd bet Vander works very hard on all aspects of his game. Just because you work really hard doesn't mean you have it in you to be an NBA level ball handler or shooter. In a lot of ways, those are DNA gifts just like superior athleticism. With Vander's skillset, you had better be 6-10 if you want to play in the NBA.
But let's focus on what he can do for Marquette. He can and does always hustle, and he can make it very difficult for the oppostion's best wing player to get points. He can help out on the defensive glass and force turnovers and get out in transition. He has a great motor. Those are valuable things to Marquette. He's a nice stone on the bridge, he's just not the keystone.
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I've personally given up any hope of VB ever being a shooter and/or scorer. His FT stroke looks improved and he's shooting them with confidence, so that's improvement. But for two, (going on three), years he hasn't been able to finish at point blank range. Do most honestly think he's suddenly going to become a scorer?
+1 and nope.
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I disagree with the premise that given outstanding athleticism all you need to do is work hard to make the NBA. I'd bet Vander works very hard on all aspects of his game. Just because you work really hard doesn't mean you have it in you to be an NBA level ball handler or shooter. In a lot of ways, those are DNA gifts just like superior athleticism. With Vander's skillset, you had better be 6-10 if you want to play in the NBA.
But let's focus on what he can do for Marquette. He can and does always hustle, and he can make it very difficult for the oppostion's best wing player to get points. He can help out on the defensive glass and force turnovers and get out in transition. He has a great motor. Those are valuable things to Marquette. He's a nice stone on the bridge, he's just not the keystone.
I disagree....on one point that he would not make a good Pro just because he works hard and I do agree on another point that someone will be able to look at this kid and take him and do something with him.
Man I like this kid's game and makeup as a player but you are right he cannot finish at this time at the rim and tricks alot of easy shots and open shots. The minute in his freshman year when he had an article and he was hanging out with the Bucks Larry Sanders and talking about 1 and done and the NBA I knew right then he was not focused on what he needed to be doing.
But he does have elite level tools you can't coach. Speed, explosion, size, quickness and acceleration iwth the basketball in his hands.
Some guys can run without the ball but he can run with the ball and has a good hitch and go game and I KNOW he can get up and dunk...but he locks up when he gets in games. It is all mental...I know he can play. And he can guard and defend the ball and play the passing lanes as well as I saw Dwyane Wade do when he first game here.
I seriously think that the drama of spurning the Badgers and coming here has in some way effected his game. Call me crazy...but I know this guy can finish near the rim but he has not developed that part of his game...and when he does LOOK OUT!
He needs a floater and tear drop and some kind of shot or spot on the floor where he can go to to get jump starter and relax and have fun...He is too uptight and tense at times. J. Maymon really hurt this kid when he left IMO...then Vander got in fights and his game flew away.
Now he has done a 360 in leadership and maturity. I wish they had played the Ohio State game to see if he would have performed on a big stage and loosened up. All he needs is a near triple double statline and he will be ok.
Some guys see their dream and are able to carve a path to reach it and do whatever they have to do to ge to where they need to and where they need to be like it seems Trent Lockett does and others think they are more ready then they are.
His form has changed though. His hand placement is better. He just needs to hurry up and slow down. Go fast in taking your time from his mind to his body to his game. He needs to get in sync.
I wonder if he does any meditation before games or plays hyped up music...he needs to be a guy who chills before games and locks in. I am not giving up on him like many have. That corner jumper is almost there....moneyball side pocket!
Stay the course VBlue!
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You don't get points for being close. Who cares whether his shots rim out or they miss everything? Bottom line: he's shooting 20% and that's horrible. I'd feel better if he at least had some feel around the hoop, but he doesn't. Blue has the quickness to get the basket, but he can't do anything once he gets there.
It is not "horrible" it is just early. And I disagree that you cannot fix your shot and get better. Some grow into their shots later on. I personally think that he was ranked too high coming into college and did not work as hard on his shot, nor saw the need to and he got caught lagging in that area.
Guys like DJO went JUCO and had to work on all aspects of their games adn could not take anything for granted. I think Vander did.
And I think the drama surrounding whether to come here or stay in Madison and JMaymon leaving effected him and became a distraction as well as running around with Pro's.
I would not go so far as to say overratted but now he has to work and for someone with his raw gifts in the run, jump, and move category that is a stretch.
It's still early for him.