I've seen this written in many other posts and I thought it was worth its own thread.
Why do so many WANT Otule to not accept a sixth year if available? If you think that you've lost your mind.
If he gets seriously injured this year, then I can understand that his body is not up to the rigors of high D1 basketball and its time to move on. But, if he makes it through the entire year without injury, you realize he can be a force in the middle. And, if he returns next year, he will be older and even better. Add Gardner as a senior and next year one of our strengths can be the 5. It could be this year if Otule is healthy.
Further if Otule is healthy, those that think Otule should "move on" to open a spot for Embiid must understand that that is a downgrade for next year. A sixth year Otule will be better than a first year Embiid.
So, please explain to me why you want a healthy Otule to move on from basketball after this season? Those that says this are nuts.
INSERT DRAMATIC RESPONSE HERE
I'm not sure it's that people want to get rid of Otule or if it's the combination of a heavy roster and CO's admission that he's not sure what he wants to do. I want CO back, if he's healthy he brings the type of defensive force that along with Gardner gives us a fantastic 1-2 punch.
With the uncertainty surrounding CO, it seems like his scholarship is one place we might be able to get creative with the roster. Regardless, I'm confident Buzz already has a good idea of what will happen next year even if we don't.
Quote from: Skatastrophy on October 25, 2012, 04:15:03 PM
INSERT DRAMATIC RESPONSE HERE
You're wrong. You're the most wrong person ever.
Here's a link to something unrelated that nonetheless proves how wrong you are.
ww.linksaysyouarewrong.com
Quote from: brewcity77 on October 25, 2012, 04:17:34 PM
I'm not sure it's that people want to get rid of Otule or if it's the combination of a heavy roster and CO's admission that he's not sure what he wants to do.
Examples
http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=33955.msg414086#msg414086
But now the story is he may not stay for his senior season, or go to Europe, or....oh forget it just figure it out later. Seems to be the theme. MU would be 2 over if they both signed.
http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=33955.msg414101#msg414101
Otule is eligible for a 6th year, but it has not yet been decided by him whether he wants a 6th year of college (at least as a basketball player), or by Marquette whether they want him back for a 6th year of college (at least as a scholarship athlete).
http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=33955.msg414117#msg414117
As said, Otule may or may not want to play his 6th year. MU will have given him 5 years and a degree. I don't think MU owes him a 6th year so he can complete grad school. If he wants to come back and MU wants him back, great. You don't hold a scholarship for someone who has graduated and MAY want to come back DEPENDING upon a number of things.
If he wants to come back, and we are full, he can always pay his way for a year... and he would probably only have to take 2 courses each semester, not real expensive.
He could be our best player next year and you want him to pay his own way????
I am the biggest Chris Otule fan out there but in no scenario can I imagine him being our best player next year.
Quote from: AnotherMU84 on October 25, 2012, 04:24:24 PM
Examples
http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=33955.msg414086#msg414086
But now the story is he may not stay for his senior season, or go to Europe, or....oh forget it just figure it out later. Seems to be the theme. MU would be 2 over if they both signed.
http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=33955.msg414101#msg414101
Otule is eligible for a 6th year, but it has not yet been decided by him whether he wants a 6th year of college (at least as a basketball player), or by Marquette whether they want him back for a 6th year of college (at least as a scholarship athlete).
http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=33955.msg414117#msg414117
As said, Otule may or may not want to play his 6th year. MU will have given him 5 years and a degree. I don't think MU owes him a 6th year so he can complete grad school. If he wants to come back and MU wants him back, great. You don't hold a scholarship for someone who has graduated and MAY want to come back DEPENDING upon a number of things. If he wants to come back, and we are full, he can always pay his way for a year... and he would probably only have to take 2 courses each semester, not real expensive.
He could be our best player next year and you want him to pay his own way????
Everyone loves the sexy prospect over the steady veteran. There's no upside in Otule, so he's boring to most. Right now Embiid is being billed as Anthony Davis in a Marquette uniform, and who wouldn't want that?
MUSCOOP:
Likes: Prospects ranked in the top 100 that 99% of people have never seen play.
Dislikes: Players on the current roster who 99% of the people have seen play multiple times.
Familiarity breeds contempt, I suppose... which is a bit ironic because people also love "senior leadership" and 4 year players.
We are a fickle bunch.
Post 1 basically says Otule has options and that it's worth taking commits now and sorting the roster later. That could refer to Otule, or someone currently committed not coming, or someone transferring. Nothing there says to me "run Otule off".
Post 2 again addresses uncertainty. Nowhere does it say get rid of CO.
Post 3 is the closest to saying let him go, but I don't see any problem with encouraging roster creativity. If Otule has been secretly promised a job as a grad assistant with pay starting in 2014-15, he'd get free tuition and could start paying off a year's worth of loans.
Again, I trust Buzz with this. I have little doubt he has already considered which players may or may not be here next year, whether it's due to academic eligibility or a transfer. However the roster shakes out, if we take the commits, and right now we could legally take both because CO's status hasn't been determined yet, I have faith that Buzz is doing it because he knows better than we do who will be on his team next year.
Hyperbole is the word of the day!
Here's the plan:
Otule--he's coming back for a 6th year but won't announce it until he has to in order to allow Buzz for more roster flexibility
JaJuan Johnson--he's only verballing now so we can sign another stud and will ink it in spring
Embiid--sign him up in ink ASAP
This is all in my mind, of course. But it makes sense.
Quote from: BrewCity BallCrusher on October 25, 2012, 11:54:26 AM
Here's the plan:
Otule--he's coming back for a 6th year but won't announce it until he has to in order to allow Buzz for more roster flexibility
JaJuan Johnson--he's only verballing now so we can sign another stud and will ink it in spring
Embiid--sign him up in ink ASAP
This is all in my mind, of course. But it makes sense.
Definitely a dream scenario, but Otule and Johnson are already saying the right things for this to come to fruition. That would be pretty epic.
I think the problem is that people want to tiptoe around the real choices.
First, the #9 through #11 players on the depth chart this year become candidates to transfer at the end of the season. Second, we may see a signed recruit wind up not enrolling.
The choice isn't Otule vs. Embiid or Otule vs Johnson.
Its Otule vs. "a guy who hasn't contributed much transfers" or Otule vs. "an early commit who has a lackluster senior year."
Who wants to get rid of him? I say don't hold a scholarship for someone that MAY decide to come back but isn't commited to coming back. I hope he does well this season and comes back for a 6th. But don't hold a scholarship in case he decides to come back.
And, I don't feel that MU is obligated in any moral/ethical sense to hold a scholarship for a player for a 6th year who has graduated, especially when they say that they May or May not want to play a 6th year.
However, I hope he is back and is a stud.
Again with the doubt about him coming back. Unless he gets seriously injured again, which has not happened, why wouldn't he come back? Because it would be a sixth year? Why don't we worry that others on the team my decide to 'move on?" Why only with Otule do we question his commitment to play basketball?
And yes that is what is being said here so don't try and parse the posts above to death.
Quote from: AnotherMU84 on October 25, 2012, 01:31:30 PM
Again with the doubt about him coming back. Unless he gets seriously injured again, which has not happened, why wouldn't he come back? Because it would be a sixth year? Why don't we worry that others on the team my decide to 'move on?" Why only with Otule do we question his commitment to play basketball?
And yes that is what is being said here so don't try and parse the posts above to death.
Why wouldn't he come back?
For starters, not everybody wants, for six years, to attend classes while also playing a D-I sport, risk injury, go through boot camps, etc., without monetary compensation.
Nobody is questioning his commitment to play basketball.
Any doubt out there about him coming back is a result of Chris saying he hasn't decided if he'll come back. My guess - and only a guess - is that if he can get paid a reasonable amount to play basketball overseas (rather than do it for free in Milwaukee) he might, and should, take that opportunity.
It's not like staying is going to improve his NBA prospects.
Quote from: AnotherMU84 on October 25, 2012, 01:31:30 PM
Again with the doubt about him coming back. Unless he gets seriously injured again, which has not happened, why wouldn't he come back? Because it would be a sixth year? Why don't we worry that others on the team my decide to 'move on?" Why only with Otule do we question his commitment to play basketball?
And yes that is what is being said here so don't try and parse the posts above to death.
Because this is what CO said about it:
"I have it available," Otule said. "
I can choose to use it. I don't know what I'm going to do. I'm just going to play it out. It is there if I want it. I'm just going to play it out, day by day."
Look no further than the 2013 class to make room for these two if they want in.
Quote from: AnotherMU84 on October 25, 2012, 01:31:30 PM
Again with the doubt about him coming back. Unless he gets seriously injured again, which has not happened, why wouldn't he come back? Because it would be a sixth year? Why don't we worry that others on the team my decide to 'move on?" Why only with Otule do we question his commitment to play basketball?
And yes that is what is being said here so don't try and parse the posts above to death.
I think the questions relate to the reason most people attend college: to help prepare and/or qualify us for a career. It would appear that Chris has done that, and he should be congratulated. I question whether another year on campus taking a couple graduate level courses will appreciably increase Chris's future earning power. On the other hand, he's only got so many years when he can earn money playing basketball. Using a purely financial cost/benefit analysis, I'd be very surprised if Chris has anything to gain by staying at Marquette for another year, and quite possibly he has a lot to lose. Of course, Chris may or may not look at this decision in those terms.
I have no idea if he'll want to return for a sixth year or not. I kind of hope so, but that's honestly probably a selfish hope (because I'm not sure that it would be in Chris's best interest). It wouldn't surprise me at all if Chris is ready to move on with the next chapter of his life; I know that I was after just four years. I would think that the motivation to move on would be even stronger if you knew that you have only a finite number of years to earn a living playing basketball, and every year you wait to get started is one fewer year you will get to play.
Still's point is excellent. I suspect Buzz and Chris will work together at the end of the year to decide what is best for HIM. If he can make good money in Europe, then he'll leave MU with his degree in hand and make a living playing hoops while he can until the 'real world' job becomes his best option. Of course I'd love his leadership back in 2013-14 and I know that he is a great young man so I wish him well in his decision. And in the meantime I hope he dominates the paint this year!
Quote from: StillAWarrior on October 25, 2012, 04:27:49 PM
I think the questions relate to the reason most people attend college: to help prepare and/or qualify us for a career. It would appear that Chris has done that, and he should be congratulated. I question whether another year on campus taking a couple graduate level courses will appreciably increase Chris's future earning power. On the other hand, he's only got so many years when he can earn money playing basketball. Using a purely financial cost/benefit analysis, I'd be very surprised if Chris has anything to gain by staying at Marquette for another year, and quite possibly he has a lot to lose. Of course, Chris may or may not look at this decision in those terms.
I have no idea if he'll want to return for a sixth year or not. I kind of hope so, but that's honestly probably a selfish hope (because I'm not sure that it would be in Chris's best interest). It wouldn't surprise me at all if Chris is ready to move on with the next chapter of his life; I know that I was after just four years. I would think that the motivation to move on would be even stronger if you knew that you have only a finite number of years to earn a living playing basketball, and every year you wait to get started is one fewer year you will get to play.
I agree 100%, and just to add to that, I think 2 big parts of the decision will be:
#1 Is he healthy and playing well this whole year?
#2 Is next year's team going to be REALLY good?
If Chris stay healthy all year this year, and if he thinks they have a chance to be really really good next year, I can see him staying.
Is it a given that he will be able to play professionally overseas? I don't know much about international basketball, but is it understood that if you play high D1 ball you will be good enough to make a living at it overseas?
If that is that case, then I'd jump ship if I were Chris and get paid to play. If not, sticking around an extra year and being responsible to just play basketball wouldn't have sounded like a bad option to me when I was 22 or 23.
Quote from: Hards_Alumni on October 25, 2012, 03:42:11 PM
Look no further than the 2013 class to make room for these two if they want in.
That is an opinion not based in fact.
Quote from: tommyc6 on October 25, 2012, 05:00:05 PM
Is it a given that he will be able to play professionally overseas? I don't know much about international basketball, but is it understood that if you play high D1 ball you will be good enough to make a living at it overseas?
If that is that case, then I'd jump ship if I were Chris and get paid to play. If not, sticking around an extra year and being responsible to just play basketball wouldn't have sounded like a bad option to me when I was 22 or 23.
Chris Grimm, Mike Kinsella and Greg Clausen all drew paychecks playing ball overseas, so that bodes well for Chris.
(Note: not meant as a dig on Grimm, Kinsella or Clausen, just pointing out that big men can make money overseas without having the greatest of college careers).
Quote from: tommyc6 on October 25, 2012, 05:00:05 PM
Is it a given that he will be able to play professionally overseas? I don't know much about international basketball, but is it understood that if you play high D1 ball you will be good enough to make a living at it overseas?
If that is that case, then I'd jump ship if I were Chris and get paid to play. If not, sticking around an extra year and being responsible to just play basketball wouldn't have sounded like a bad option to me when I was 22 or 23.
I'm convinced. It is much tougher for guards. Chris is a 'big body' that can play for several years at a high level. Just ask Jimmy Mac! (Not saying Chris is NBA material.) Pretty sure Grimm still plays overseas, several years after leaving MU.
May depend on how much he can earn in Europe next year.
Quote from: Marqevans on October 25, 2012, 06:51:17 PM
May depend on how much he can earn in Europe next year.
I have a friend that owns/runs a pro-team in Europe (Switzerland). It is not a top flight team like those in France and Spain but the next level below that. They have made inquiries to MU players in the past (largely because I suggested it) and nothing came of it.
I mention this because I have some knowledge about the second tier European teams. They pay ... $3,000/month and provide an apartment (typically a small two bedroom with another US player). The average player lasts a little less than 2 seasons.
He tells me you can make $100,000 to $300,000/year with the top teams in Spain and France. But very few of these teams have US players. If a US player is worth that kind of money in Europe, they are more likely to stay in the NBDL as that path is clearer to the NBA or they are making the NBA minimum at the end of an NBA bench.
Here is the question I cannot answer, before Otule gets a "real job" in sales or as an accountant (or whatever), is it worth it to move to Europe for 2 years and save maybe $30,000 to $50,000? If he realizes he is destined for a real job as an accountant or in sales and wants to delay it as long as possible, then a sixth year at MU is a viable option. More interesting to play in front of 18,000 at the Bradley center on national TV than in front of 2,000 to 4,000 in Europe when the stadium announcer is speaking French. If Otule wants a career as a basketball coach (I have no idea if this interests him) then staying at MU is also a better option than "getting lost" in Europe.
I cannot speak to his financial situation or what interests Chris. But going to Europe for the kind of money he would probably command does not, to me, seem worth it. If he wants to delay getting a "real job" than come back for a sixth year. Nothing wrong with that.
"Everyone" doesn't want to get rid of Otule.
As I said earlier today in another thread:
If Otule stays healthy and is as productive as I think he can be this season, why the heck wouldn't Marquette want a mature, 6-foot-11, shotblocking team leader for one more season?
What? We've had too many quality big men in recent years?
Quote from: AnotherMU84 on October 25, 2012, 09:18:28 PM
I have a friend that owns/runs a pro-team in Europe (Switzerland). It is not a top flight team like those in France and Spain but the next level below that. They have made inquiries to MU players in the past (largely because I suggested it) and nothing came of it.
I mention this because I have some knowledge about the second tier European teams. They pay ... $3,000/month and provide an apartment (typically a small two bedroom with another US player). The average player lasts a little less than 2 seasons.
He tells me you can make $100,000 to $300,000/year with the top teams in Spain and France. But very few of these teams have US players. If a US player is worth that kind of money in Europe, they are more likely to stay in the NBDL as that path is clearer to the NBA or they are making the NBA minimum at the end of an NBA bench.
Here is the question I cannot answer, before Otule gets a "real job" in sales or as an accountant (or whatever), is it worth it to move to Europe for 2 years and save maybe $30,000 to $50,000? If he realizes he is destined for a real job as an accountant or in sales and wants to delay it as long as possible, then a sixth year at MU is a viable option. More interesting to play in front of 18,000 at the Bradley center on national TV than in front of 2,000 to 4,000 in Europe when the stadium announcer is speaking French. If Otule wants a career as a basketball coach (I have no idea if this interests him) then staying at MU is also a better option than "getting lost" in Europe.
I cannot speak to his financial situation or what interests Chris. But going to Europe for the kind of money he would probably command does not, to me, seem worth it. If he wants to delay getting a "real job" than come back for a sixth year. Nothing wrong with that.
Interesting stuff Another. I'd be real interested to know more info about 'second tier' overseas options. If memory serves, we've had guys in Turkey, Japan, Italy, etc. I didn't even know that Switzerland had a league. Seems to me that Travis made the decision to play over there after his NBA days were over and was making well into the 6 figures.
Quote from: jsglow on October 26, 2012, 11:03:04 AM
Interesting stuff Another. I'd be real interested to know more info about 'second tier' overseas options. If memory serves, we've had guys in Turkey, Japan, Italy, etc. I didn't even know that Switzerland had a league. Seems to me that Travis made the decision to play over there after his NBA days were over and was making well into the 6 figures.
Travis made a decision to live in Europe when he was older. Younger guys view it as a stepping stone (to the NBA).
Also, their is a bit of a bubble in European basketball teams/leagues. My friend in Switzerland tells me that some of the high profile teams are betting the NBA will expand into Europe by adding an existing European team(s) to the NBA. So the are spending big time right now. If the NBA does not expand soon, this bubble will burst.
Quote from: jsglow on October 26, 2012, 11:03:04 AM
Interesting stuff Another. I'd be real interested to know more info about 'second tier' overseas options. If memory serves, we've had guys in Turkey, Japan, Italy, etc. I didn't even know that Switzerland had a league. Seems to me that Travis made the decision to play over there after his NBA days were over and was making well into the 6 figures.
I believe Travis is making more money and starting in Italy, which were driving factors. He had a few NBA offers he could have taken to be a backup and would probably still be in the league today had he chosen.
I have a former classmate who was a former two-time D2 player of the year.
He plays in Europe. Shares a decent apartment with two other players, they are all provided their own cars and have per diem for meals. His last year he made $110,000 on top of the benefits playing in Austria.
It's not a bad gig at all for a couple years after school.
Quote from: PTM on October 26, 2012, 11:35:56 AMI have a friend who was a former two-time D2 player of the year.
John Smith?
Quote from: PTM on October 26, 2012, 11:35:56 AM
I have a former classmate who was a former two-time D2 player of the year.
He plays in Europe. Shares a decent apartment with two other players, they are all provided their own cars and have per diem for meals. His last year he made $110,000 on top of the benefits playing in Austria.
It's not a bad gig at all for a couple years after school.
D2 play of the year, gets 110k. So what will Otule earn?
That is why I used my example.
Quote from: AnotherMU84 on October 26, 2012, 11:54:14 AM
D2 play of the year, gets 110k. So what will Otule earn?
That is why I used my example.
If he can dunk. $100k with no expenses.
Quote from: PTM on October 26, 2012, 05:14:08 PM
If he can dunk. $100k with no expenses.
Here is a list if players in my friends league in Switzerland that pay 3k/month plus an apartment.
http://www.eurobasket.com/Switzerland/basketball-Imports.asp
Scroll to the bottom to see the us players. Several BE players are on the list. And just about everyone of them can dunk.
Regarding big centers that can dunk, scroll up the list to see the size of the Serbian players in this league.
So it's nice to fantasize about big bucks playing in Europe. But the reality is the top graduates of MU's business school will make as much as MUBasketball players in Europe.