What are we, what should we be, how do we get there?
Written by: noreply@blogger.com (muwarrior92)
If you haven't had a chance to read the latest article on Marquette hoops in Marquette Magazine, I strongly suggest you do. The article, entitled "Playing Old School (http://www.marquette.edu/magazine/recent.php?subaction=showfull&id=1349369276&archive=&start_from=&ucat=7&)" by MU's own Dan McGrath (http://www.chicagonewscoop.org/author/dan-mcgrath/), focuses attention on new AD Larry Williams and his future view of MU athletics, specifically basketball and the desire to do things with integrity in light of some unflattering occurrences.
The article has already revealed the ongoing fracture some MU fans have about certain MU officials, and specifically Larry Williams and Father Pilarz. There is one camp of alumnae and fans that believe the new administration is somehow handcuffing Buzz Williams and his ability to put a successful product on the basketball court. The program will no be able to compete and the new reality is that the only way to win is the current approach. Larry Williams has been dubbed program killer, a Notre Dame elitist from a school that no longer can win with that mentality (ahem...Notre Dame is 5th in the nation in football right now).
A recent blurb by Jeff Goodman on his CBS blog (http://www.cbssports.com/collegebasketball/blog/eye-on-college-basketball/20581757/big-east-isnt-the-same-after-losses-impending-departures) only added to the fire when he said "Buzz Williams has done a superb job at Marquette, but he and athletic director Larry Williams aren't exactly bosom buddies and there's no telling how long he'll remain in Milwaukee." Of course, back in the Tom Crean era some fans would say this would be Crean putting words into the bloggers mouth, but in this case apparently it is Jeff Goodman doing some serious sleuthing. Considering Goodman's hits and misses this past season, who knows how accurate this is, but we'll assume he is right and address that a bit later.
The other camp of graduates and fans have asked why are we destined to fail and become second rate simply by having a tighter leash on the program? Does one path lead to the other? When viewed through the lens of multiple off the court issues that put MU on the front page of the Chicago Tribune twice and on the evening news several times in the last year for embarrassing indiscretions involving an athletics team from MU can make folks feel a bit....squirmy (note that some fans like to pretend it was the tennis or track team and not members of a more prominent team). Winning matters, but so does integrity. Just win baby doesn't sit well with this group of fans, it's a lazy cop out and an excuse. It is reaching for the ground, not the stars...it is harder to reach for the stars.
So who are we? What should we be? Is there only one way to win? Is it wrong to aspire to do it the right way? What is the right way in today's day and age? All questions asked before and asked continually by our university and others around the country. All questions I have asked here on this blog several times. Let's look at the USA Today top 25 poll that came (http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/ncaab/2012/10/17/usa-today-sports-mens-basketball-poll/1638933/)out today. A number of programs on that list that almost universally fans will say don't do it the right way the majority of the time. Of course there are also programs on that list that most would say strive to a higher ideal and succeed at it most of the time, even if they screw up on occasion. It's impossible to be perfect all the time, it simply is. Every program will have an indiscretion, sometimes a series of them in a short amount of time. That's the case for MU recently, but fortunately the indiscretions have been rare in the long run and I think all of us would like to keep it that way. It is clear that Pilarz and Larry Williams feel that way, along with many influential alumni.
So is it wrong to aspire to be a quality athletic program AND also do well in the classroom and the community? No one said it was going to be easy or perfect. Yes, Notre Dame has student athlete issues, so does Stanford, Indiana, Duke, Wake Forest, BYU and others. For trying to hold to a higher standard, when they fail they are ridiculed. Blogs, sports columns, fan forums explode about such and such Duke player from 2004 that screwed up or a Notre Dame football player from 2006 and the screams of hypocrisy echo aloud. It's easy to pick on those that try to aspire, but fail. They are taking a risk to do better, to act in a higher regard and when they fail the critics come out of the woodwork. It is certainly easier to take the lower path of standards and if you fail, oh well. What is the proper approach? What should we be doing?
So what do you want to be? I contend we can be a top notch program with Buzz Williams at the helm and also do it the right way in both reality and perception. In many respects we are doing it the right way, but the perception has taken a beating (rightfully so) and we all know perception and reality are often confused. MU, Buzz, and the program need an uneventful season. A nice, quiet, get the job done season would be very nice this year. Go about your business, respect your coach and your university, perform well on the court, perform better off of it.
At the end of the day, MU isn't going to have Buzz Williams forever, nor are they going to have Larry Williams and Father Pilarz. If Buzz goes, there will be another basketball coach. If Larry Williams goes, there will be another AD just as there will be another president at MU. People change, but institutions change far less. It is clear that MU wants to win, but to win in the right way. For some, they feel this is pushing Buzz out the door or tying his hands. "If Buzz leaves, the end is near. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UrcWzMKE3Sw) It's all over, Loyola of Chicago here we come." Just stop. Have faith in Buzz. He's a good man, strong religious conviction, believes in his players, believes in discipline, has a core set of standards that should align well with the university's mission...some have argued it fits squarely into what he is all about.
Therefore, it is not wrong to aspire to do multiple things well and to keep integrity as the guiding principle, even if at times we fail in that regard. It is not wrong to hold people (players, coaches, administrators, fans) accountable. Father Pilarz and Larry Williams are not out to destroy or cut the program down to size. These are not stupid men. Buzz can work in this environment and succeed. Or we can continue to read little blurbs in blogs about the AD and the program and wonder who provided that information. It is clear the university is saying we want to win, but we will win in a specific way. That bet has been made. Buzz can make this work. It is up to him. He will stay as long as MU will have him...well MU has said they will have him but it will be with conditions. Those conditions are part of what Buzz tells us he is all about so it's time to put all this crap behind us, get on board together as a fan base, a team, a coach, players, university administration and prove it can be done. There are schools doing it today. MU has done it in the recent past with Buzz at the helm and prior...we are not perfect, we never will be, but there is no shame in striving for a higher ideal.
http://www.crackedsidewalks.com/2012/10/what-are-we-what-should-we-be-how-do-we.html
Amen. Great post Chicos.
Good read. Thanks.
Hallelujah!!! Nuff said........
Outstanding.
Thank you. Balanced, nuanced and thoughtful.
Well done Cheeks. Very balanced and positioned toward a positive outcome.
My only continuing ding in all of this is what I have always maintained and that this one incident with the basketball team is and was about something much broader, and was a failure of administration over a number of years and cases. The policy in place was archaic, and like all university policies, was approved by the BOT's. While Pilarz walked into a bad situation on top of bad clergy press with Wild, he found his fall guys in Athletics and away from the Jesuits and the university. Perhaps this was politically and legally wise, but it is untruthful to the major issue at hand as the DOE found. Has MU, outside of Athletics, changed? There is no justice in continuing to make this just a basketball issue when it is and was a university issue.
I'm so glad we banned this guy. He brings nothing to the Marquette community.
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on October 19, 2012, 08:48:28 AM
Well done Cheeks. Very balanced and positioned toward a positive outcome.
My only continuing ding in all of this is what I have always maintained and that this one incident with the basketball team is and was about something much broader, and was a failure of administration over a number of years and cases. The policy in place was archaic, and like all university policies, was approved by the BOT's. While Pilarz walked into a bad situation on top of bad clergy press with Wild, he found his fall guys in Athletics and away from the Jesuits and the university. Perhaps this was politically and legally wise, but it is untruthful to the major issue at hand as the DOE found. Has MU, outside of Athletics, changed? There is no justice in continuing to make this just a basketball issue when it is and was a university issue.
Didn't they acknowledge as much in those Tribune articles?
And, moreover: the changes in the Athletic Department weren't *just* about this mishandling of the allegations involved in that one particular case. I think they were symptomatic of larger, more systemic problems in the department, which is why the changes were made.
Quote from: Rubie Q on October 19, 2012, 08:56:41 AM
Didn't they acknowledge as much in those Tribune articles?
And, moreover: the changes in the Athletic Department weren't *just* about this mishandling of the allegations involved in that one particular case. I think they were symptomatic of larger, more systemic problems in the department, which is why the changes were made.
Barely, and I am not trying to downplay or minimize what LW is doing in the AD to address or correct the past sins. However, we saw a national announcement on the T-Shirt scandal investigation (good) and LW's efforts to make sure past sins are not repeated on his watch (good), but I haven't seen that same public effort on the DOE investigation and any policy changes, fines or education/awareness steps beyond that with MU's new SVP of Administration. We heard the clergy victim's group protest of the Jesuits and Fr. Wild's handling of abuse in the past. Will Fr. Pilarz also publically address the actions he and the Jesuits have put in place to make sure those past sins are not repeated and how offenders and victims will be treated?
I am not saying to give the basketball team a pass, even though it was highly visible to the public. What I am saying is this was part of a much bigger issue involving scores of incidents that involve Johnny and Suzie Traditional from Whitefish Bay. It is not just to overemphasize one, and continue to brush the scores others under the carpet. It is an injustice to those other victims, and it is a cause of concern that the overall university community problem is not fixed or being addressed.
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on October 19, 2012, 10:08:39 AM
Barely, and I am not trying to downplay or minimize what LW is doing in the AD to address or correct the past sins. However, we saw a national announcement on the T-Shirt scandal investigation (good) and LW's efforts to make sure past sins are not repeated on his watch (good), but I haven't seen that same public effort on the DOE investigation and any policy changes, fines or education/awareness steps beyond that with MU's new SVP of Administration. We heard the clergy victim's group protest of the Jesuits and Fr. Wild's handling of abuse in the past. Will Fr. Pilarz also publically address the actions he and the Jesuits have put in place to make sure those past sins are not repeated and how offenders and victims will be treated?
I am not saying to give the basketball team a pass, even though it was highly visible to the public. What I am saying is this was part of a much bigger issue involving scores of incidents that involve Johnny and Suzie Traditional from Whitefish Bay. It is not just to overemphasize one, and continue to brush the scores others under the carpet. It is an injustice to those other victims, and it is a cause of concern that the overall university community problem is not fixed or being addressed.
Does this count?
http://www.jsonline.com/news/education/124379168.html
Quote from: Rubie Q on October 19, 2012, 10:12:59 AM
Does this count?
http://www.jsonline.com/news/education/124379168.html
You got anything on the DOE investigative report release and fine? Or the change in clergy abuse policy? I have seen the changes on the AD requirements. Again, this is a university issue.
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on October 19, 2012, 10:18:24 AM
You got anything on the DOE investigative report release and fine? Or the change in clergy abuse policy? I have seen the changes on the AD requirements. Again, this is a university issue.
I guess I'm not clear what you're looking for, then. That article was about the changes the University has made as a whole in its handling of sexual assault allegations, not just with regard to the athletic department.
I really think many are missing the big picture issue at hand. We have all discussed many times the off court issues and the affect it has had or not had on the program. IMO it simply comes down to the vision that Fr. P has for the school. Every President is giving room to express their philosphy and direction to take the university. I believe that Fr. P is more interested in growing the academic reputation of the school over having a basketball team being its face nationally. In addition, the off court issues of the past only makes having basketball not being the face of the school all the more important.
LW IMO is simply a mouth piece for Fr. P and may or may not agree with directive. 4everWarriors has stated many times that Buzz is no longer working for the people who hired him and that new bosses don't always like the old hires.
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on October 19, 2012, 08:48:28 AM
Well done Cheeks. Very balanced and positioned toward a positive outcome.
My only continuing ding in all of this is what I have always maintained and that this one incident with the basketball team is and was about something much broader, and was a failure of administration over a number of years and cases. The policy in place was archaic, and like all university policies, was approved by the BOT's. While Pilarz walked into a bad situation on top of bad clergy press with Wild, he found his fall guys in Athletics and away from the Jesuits and the university. Perhaps this was politically and legally wise, but it is untruthful to the major issue at hand as the DOE found. Has MU, outside of Athletics, changed? There is no justice in continuing to make this just a basketball issue when it is and was a university issue.
This.
Quote from: Rubie Q on October 19, 2012, 10:25:55 AM
I guess I'm not clear what you're looking for, then. That article was about the changes the University has made as a whole in its handling of sexual assault allegations, not just with regard to the athletic department.
Simply this: a
balanced perspective to the problem by the university--not just LW. The article on Fr. Wild's announcement was in reaction to the basketball incident, a pr attempt to quiet the bad press, and yes put in place modern policies as a
reaction. Since then, the
new administration has moved to overemphasive the blame on the AD (resignations, new policies, accountabilities). We see the release of the t-shirt investigation (good). We don't see the release of the DOE investigation on the sexual abuse policy and fine (bad). Fr. Wild retires, and the church clergy abuse is quietly swept away, never to be addressed in public (bad).
If you balanced the attention to the number of incidents, the basketball issues would get few articles (yes I understand why there is more focus on the basketball team in the press), the others the majority. The impact on each victim is equally as bad, however. To overplay one and to underplay the others, doesn't do justice to the victims. Come clean on the other areas and release those investigations, and don't keep pretending the only issue is in the AD in the press and university publications. Hell, there was a past MU administration severely tinged by the handling of these issues within their ranks. Do we learn our lessons?
Quote from: Goose on October 19, 2012, 10:28:26 AM
I really think many are missing the big picture issue at hand. We have all discussed many times the off court issues and the affect it has had or not had on the program. IMO it simply comes down to the vision that Fr. P has for the school. Every President is giving room to express their philosphy and direction to take the university. I believe that Fr. P is more interested in growing the academic reputation of the school over having a basketball team being its face nationally. In addition, the off court issues of the past only makes having basketball not being the face of the school all the more important.
LW IMO is simply a mouth piece for Fr. P and may or may not agree with directive. 4everWarriors has stated many times that Buzz is no longer working for the people who hired him and that new bosses don't always like the old hires.
Fr. P's track record doesn't exactly indicate what you are saying.
In the end, you might be right, but I don't think there is enough evidence to support that.
The article asks "What are we, what should we be, and how do we get there?" All interesting questions.
What are we? The piece doesn't really touch on this at all.
What should we be? I guess the answer is Duke, Notre Dame, Wake Forest and Indiana. Which of these institutions (remember, according to the article, "people change, but institutions change far less") doesn't fit? Might it be the one that barely avoided the death penalty 4 short years ago? Granted, it's not the instutional cesspool it was then, but please. How's this for a novel idea - instead of trying to be Duke, ND or (shudder) Indiana why not continue to espouse to be Marquette? Is there anything wrong with the Al McGuire/KO/TC/Buzz model? Have we taken kids from rough neighborhoods/backgrounds? Have we taken kids with less than stellar high school transcripts? Yes and yes, and without those kids MU has no Sweet 16s, let alone Final Fours. And by and large these same young men (due to their own and MU's efforts) have done us proud. I agree with the article that standing for something is important. And that those who stand for something inevitably are branded (incorrectly) hypocrites when they fail. That's precisely why I place such a low value on other's "perceptions". Aspire to success on and off the court, and be quick to take responsibility when you fall short.
How do we get there? Stay the course, but Buzz has to reconcile the fact that the people who hired and trusted him are gone. He's a relationship guy, and if a positive one between him and Pilarz/LW is possible he's got to try to make it happen. His new bosses need to realize that the state of the program they inherited (the best it's been in 34 years) is not the norm at MU. If they can't make the guy most responsible for that feel appreciated (I'm not talking about money) the program and ultimately the university will suffer.
Final note. Though I disagree with some of your assertions (surprise, surprise), thanks, Chicos, for your thought provoking post.
Time to weigh in on this and I promise I won't be as verbose as Chicos.
If Marquette wants high quality students, alumni money and visibility throughout the United States, then basketball is our past, present and future.
Keeping Buzz is essential.
If Marquette wants to serve the Golden Goose in the Jesuit residence on Sunday, they'll kill basketball, focus on academics, let Buzz go somewhere else and hire Mike Dukiet Jr.
We'll be 10-18 under the second circumstance, playing the Horizon League and fighting Loyola of Chicago for the best record by a Jesuit school located within one mile of the Lake Michigan shoreline. We'll be the best known private school in Superior, Antigo and Dodgeville. The rest of the world will think we're in Michigan.
Father Pilarz and LW, like it or not, basketball is how the world knows us. We're not Harvard and I don't think there is any near-term plan to change that. Most folks I know mistakenly think we're also not the best Jesuit university in the USA either. Basketball gives us visibility. Period!!!! Accept it, worship Buzz, Cannonize Al and move on!
Quote from: Lennys Tap on October 19, 2012, 12:13:50 PM
Is there anything wrong with the Al McGuire/KO/TC/Buzz model? Have we taken kids from rough neighborhoods/backgrounds? Have we taken kids with less than stellar high school transcripts? Yes and yes, and without those kids MU has no Sweet 16s, let alone Final Fours. And by and large these same young men (due to their own and MU's efforts) have done us proud.
This is a key point for me. Some of these guys came from crap situations. Poor areas, poor schools, less than ideal family situations. And MU has traditionally given them a chance to succeed.
For all the talk of a "Jesuit mission" that gets tossed around, isn't giving the disadvantaged a chance for a quality education right up there?
Quote from: MUfan12 on October 19, 2012, 12:57:12 PM
This is a key point for me. Some of these guys came from crap situations. Poor areas, poor schools, less than ideal family situations. And MU has traditionally given them a chance to succeed.
For all the talk of a "Jesuit mission" that gets tossed around, isn't giving the disadvantaged a chance for a quality education right up there?
This.
Quote from: MUfan12 on October 19, 2012, 12:57:12 PM
This is a key point for me. Some of these guys came from crap situations. Poor areas, poor schools, less than ideal family situations. And MU has traditionally given them a chance to succeed.
For all the talk of a "Jesuit mission" that gets tossed around, isn't giving the disadvantaged a chance for a quality education right up there?
The problem with this premise is that you could replace MU with just about any other school in the country and it would still be true. Let's not pretend MU is unique in taking kids from poor/dysfunctional neighborhoods and families...virtually every program does this.
Guns
You may be right. Fr. P just might simply not like Buzz. Either way the outcome likely the same.
Quote from: Goose on October 19, 2012, 01:58:20 PM
Guns
You may be right. Fr. P just might simply not like Buzz. Either way the outcome likely the same.
Well, the reasons for a given outcome are important.
If Buzz leaves because of a personal dispute... that would suck. A LOT.
But, that doesn't mean that MU is de-emphasizing athletics and that Pilarz is some sort of high and mighty academic sent to MU to make it more like Loyola.
We just don't know that (yet).
Guns
Getting rid of or allowing 2nd best coach in our history to leave is de-emphasizing basketball, directly or indirectly.
Quote from: MUfan12 on October 19, 2012, 12:57:12 PM
This is a key point for me. Some of these guys came from crap situations. Poor areas, poor schools, less than ideal family situations. And MU has traditionally given them a chance to succeed.
For all the talk of a "Jesuit mission" that gets tossed around, isn't giving the disadvantaged a chance for a quality education right up there?
Hell yeah! My thoughts exactly. I want to see as many stories like Wade, Jimmy B, Junior C, etc. as possible. As Herman Blume in Rushmore said, take dead aim at the rich kids. I don't want to be Duke, I don't want to be Stanford, I don't want to be ND. I want to be
Marquette. I want to win different. I want to win flashy. I want a distinct style of toughness, athleticism, and smart hoops. In short, I think we can become the Oregon Ducks of college basketball, with the unis, athletic style, and Ws. We're on the brink of becoming that kind of national brand with Buzz. We're almost there, and we will certainly get there if the admin will just let it happen.
Quote from: Jamailman on October 19, 2012, 02:12:37 PM
In short, I think we can become the Oregon Ducks of college basketball, with the unis, athletic style, and Ws.
Why would you ever use those Godawful Oregon Ducks uniforms as an inspiration.
Worst unis in football. Hands down.
Quote from: warriorchick on October 19, 2012, 02:48:16 PM
Why would you ever use those Godawful Oregon Ducks uniforms as an inspiration.
Worst unis in football. Hands down.
Personally, I think they are awesome.
Jamailman
I want to be the Oregon Ducks on steroids. We finaly have the style of play that catches peoples attention. I mentioned in Feb that my son, a Sr in HS at the time, mentioned all the guys at his school were talking MU ball and not UW ball. I have been around a long time and do not think that has been the case since the 70's.
Quote from: Hards_Alumni on October 19, 2012, 02:52:46 PM
Personally, I think they are awesome.
Some are awful, but the majority are awesome.
Quote from: Jamailman on October 19, 2012, 02:12:37 PM
Hell yeah! My thoughts exactly. I want to see as many stories like Wade, Jimmy B, Junior C, etc. as possible. As Herman Blume in Rushmore said, take dead aim at the rich kids. I don't want to be Duke, I don't want to be Stanford, I don't want to be ND. I want to be Marquette. I want to win different. I want to win flashy. I want a distinct style of toughness, athleticism, and smart hoops. In short, I think we can become the Oregon Ducks of college basketball, with the unis, athletic style, and Ws. We're on the brink of becoming that kind of national brand with Buzz. We're almost there, and we will certainly get there if the admin will just let it happen.
I agree with this completely.
Oregon uniforms, IMO, more awesome than awful.
Quote from: Guns n Ammo on October 19, 2012, 02:05:24 PM
Well, the reasons for a given outcome are important.
If Buzz leaves because of a personal dispute... that would suck. A LOT.
But, that doesn't mean that MU is de-emphasizing athletics and that Pilarz is some sort of high and mighty academic sent to MU to make it more like Loyola.
We just don't know that (yet).
I'm with Goose on this. When ND eased Holtz out they didn't offically de-emphasize football, but it certainly worked out that way.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on October 19, 2012, 12:13:50 PM
Is there anything wrong with the Al McGuire/KO/TC/Buzz model? Have we taken kids from rough neighborhoods/backgrounds? Have we taken kids with less than stellar high school transcripts? Yes and yes, and without those kids MU has no Sweet 16s, let alone Final Fours. And by and large these same young men (due to their own and MU's efforts) have done us proud. I agree with the article that standing for something is important. And that those who stand for something inevitably are branded (incorrectly) hypocrites when they fail. That's precisely why I place such a low value on other's "perceptions". Aspire to success on and off the court, and be quick to take responsibility when you fall short.
How do we get there? Stay the course, but Buzz has to reconcile the fact that the people who hired and trusted him are gone. He's a relationship guy, and if a positive one between him and Pilarz/LW is possible he's got to try to make it happen. His new bosses need to realize that the state of the program they inherited (the best it's been in 34 years) is not the norm at MU. If they can't make the guy most responsible for that feel appreciated (I'm not talking about money) the program and ultimately the university will suffer.
Final note. Though I disagree with some of your assertions (surprise, surprise), thanks, Chicos, for your thought provoking post.
Agree completely with this. Except the 'some' in the last sentence would be replaced with a 'most' or an 'all'.
"Cannonize Al?" Jeez, I loved Al. Does this have to do with shooting?
Thanks Chicos. Wish you were back.
Quote from: mileskishnish72 on October 20, 2012, 06:15:59 AM
"Cannonize Al?" Jeez, I loved Al. Does this have to do with shooting?
No it has everything to do with the Kentucky game in 2003. That was Al's first verifiable miracle. He's now the Blessed Al