MUScoop
MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: Tigidal on October 17, 2012, 02:59:58 PM
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Nervous quote from Goodman's BE preview article...
"Buzz Williams has done a superb job at Marquette, but he and athletic director Larry Williams aren't exactly bosom buddies and there's no telling how long he'll remain in Milwaukee."
http://www.cbssports.com/collegebasketball/blog/eye-on-college-basketball/20581757/big-east-isnt-the-same-after-losses-impending-departures
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Not a shocker. Larry's an elitist and Buzz is real people. Oil & water. Let's hope the on-court success this year combined with a great class next year and a commitment to his returning players keeps Buzz here. Luckily for MU I think that might be enough.
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Not a shocker. Larry's an elitist and Buzz is real people.
Haha, I love when people just make stuff up.
Larry's an elitist, why, because he went to ND?
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I know the second "he" is supposed to refer to Buzz, but I think it's a more apropos pronoun for LW.
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First time I've seen their relationship written about, nationally or locally. You know where "Goody" is getting his info from, as well.
I've come into this season fully expecting it to be Buzz's last here, and this doesn't do anything to convince me otherwise.
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So we are starting this again right before the season and so all the recruits can read that. Nice job
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So we are starting this again right before the season and so all the recruits can read that. Nice job
They've all read stuff before. It's been brought up here endlessly.
I for one am simply going to enjoy this season and what happens, happens. I can't worry about it.
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So we are starting this again right before the season and so all the recruits can read that. Nice job
Guess we better follow your suggestion and fill them up with drugs and sex to make them forget about it.
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I thought this was going to tie into this
(http://images.starpulse.com/Photos/Previews/Bosom-Buddies-tv-04.jpg)
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So we are starting this again right before the season and so all the recruits can read that. Nice job
Assume the recruits have asked Buzz this question point blank and he gave them a satisfying answer.
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If this season goes well, it's going to be tough for Buzz to leave MU with the squad he'll have heading into 2013-2014. I think he'll be here until at least then and I think at the end of the day winning will make everyone happy.
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Nervous quote from Goodman's BE preview article...
"Buzz Williams has done a superb job at Marquette, but he and athletic director Larry Williams aren't exactly bosom buddies and there's no telling how long he'll remain in Milwaukee."
http://www.cbssports.com/collegebasketball/blog/eye-on-college-basketball/20581757/big-east-isnt-the-same-after-losses-impending-departures
I'll be interested in what madtown, lab and other's of their ilk make of this. Will they view it as another total fiction from a (new) member of the tin foil gang or finally see what's been obvious to the hiroshimites for nearly a year? Maybe they know Buzz better than Goodman.
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I will say what I always say - Larry has a job to do, Buzz's program had some issues to fix - if they can't work it out, shame on BOTH of them... and I also say, if Buzz it what he preaches, he understands the program needed some changes and should be a bigger man than turning tail and running...
and he didn't run to SMU, think the tinfoilers way overblow the situation...
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It is not Buzz and Larry relationship that is problem. I do agree with Lazer that hopefully a good season and great recruiting class makes for better relationship across the board. Very possibly wishful thinking, but it will make me look at glass being half full.
Madtown--Agreed some changes were needed and would think Buzz agrees with that. Problem is not making minor rule chances, it is overall philosphy on what MU is and what some want us to be.
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All we can do is have faith that Buzz will stay. We all have abandonment issues after Tan Tommy left.
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"it is overall philosophy on what MU is and what some want us to be"
Looks like it hasn't affected the 2013 recruiting class? or will it?
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Wiill they view it as another total fiction from a (new) member of the tin foil gang or finally see what's been obvious to the hiroshimites for nearly a year? Maybe they know Buzz better than Goodman.
So now Hiroshima has been redefined to this open-ended forecast that Buzz will leave someday (unless the Mayan calendar is true and the world ends before the start of BE play).
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This is what happens when you work for people who didn't hire you in the first place.
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I for one am simply going to enjoy this season and what happens, happens. I can't worry about it.
+1
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This is what happens when you work for people who didn't hire you in the first place.
No, this is what happens when the Board of Trustees sees the University get roasted on the front page of the Chicago Tribune twice in one summer.
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It was a deserved roasting. Changes were needed. One of those changes does not have to be Buzz leaving. I also think that the quality of recruits that he has coming into the program will outweigh whatever relationship issues he has with the AD.
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No, this is what happens when the Board of Trustees sees the University get roasted on the front page of the Chicago Tribune twice in one summer.
And why exactly was the University roasted in the Chicago Tribune? Because of the mishandling of the situation by the University Administration. Because the University Policy violated State Law. If the University Administration handled it properly and legally, much of the basis of that article does not exist.
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Madtown
If Buzz leaves the recruiting class for next season might look entirely different. Kids are coming because of Buzz and his style of play. Few recruits are looking at the engineering school as deciding factor in picking a school to play ball at.
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Not good.
A lot of boss/subordinate relationships aren't perfect, so that's not uncommon.
However, the fact that it's leaked to a media source is concerning.
Hope it works out.
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My theory....Goodman doesn't know sh1t, and got his insight on Buzz and LW from the tin foil wearing Hiroshimaists while readin scoop. ;D
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All we can do is have faith that Buzz will stay. We all have abandonment issues after Tan Tommy left.
Not all of us.
Shocking, but some have the maturity to accept what a person has done for the University and hold no ill will when they inevitably move on. I suggest the people who don't currently have this ability begin developing it over the next six months.
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And why exactly was the University roasted in the Chicago Tribune? Because of the mishandling of the situation by the University Administration. Because the University Policy violated State Law. If the University Administration handled it properly and legally, much of the basis of that article does not exist.
+1
Add in that MU was in violation of the federal policy for 10+ years and at least 14 other cases not involving the basketball team...or that the same said paper was calling out the retiring MU President for sweeping away Jesuit priest abuse in Chicago at the same time. MU has seven Jesuits on the BOT. Anyone see that press release on the DOE report or fine? Waiting on Walker's FOIA release article.
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Watch MU side with their short-term, do nothing AD—and lose the best coach they could ever hope for.
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So we are starting this again right before the season and so all the recruits can read that. Nice job
If its true, which it probably is, why shouldn't recruits know it?
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This is what happens when you work for people who didn't hire you in the first place.
that.
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I'll be interested in what madtown, lab and other's of their ilk make of this. Will they view it as another total fiction from a (new) member of the tin foil gang or finally see what's been obvious to the hiroshimites for nearly a year? Maybe they know Buzz better than Goodman.
Oh, Lenny.
Had the Hiroshimites left it at "I don't think Larry and Buzz are bosom buddies" you (they) wouldn't have received much argument or grief.
However, that's not where it was left. Instead, over the past six months we've heard claims such as:
- Buzz isn't being allowed to recruit JUCOs
- multiple players are being forced out
- new academic standards are being imposed retroactively
- Buzz was forced to suspend Todd Mayo (and every other player he's suspended)
- Buzz didn't suspended players until Larry Williams came along
- Todd Mayo is a victim of new academic standards
- The administration is scaling back the program
None of these claims have proven true, and all the evidence so far indicates they are false.
So, if you want to claim Goodman's remark as some kind of vindication, have at it. But some of us know better.
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And why exactly was the University roasted in the Chicago Tribune? Because of the mishandling of the situation by the University Administration. Because the University Policy violated State Law. If the University Administration handled it properly and legally, much of the basis of that article does not exist.
That's not exactly what the Tribune story said.
It would be more accurate to say the Tribune story focused on mishandling of the situation by Public Safety and the athletic department.
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zzzzzzzzzz
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Didn't we have this conversation last spring?
Zzzzzzzzzzzzz xkjnbztr zzzzzzzzzz (I have sleep apnea) zzzzzzzzzrthjklnbbzzzzzzzz
I want to get this in early.....before we get to 67 pages of tin foiling and hiroshimaizing..........
Crank baits or jigs.
Discuss.
CAN'T WAIT FOR THE SEASON TO BEGIN!!!!!!!
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+1
Add in that MU was in violation of the federal policy for 10+ years and at least 14 other cases not involving the basketball team...or that the same said paper was calling out the retiring MU President for sweeping away Jesuit priest abuse in Chicago at the same time. MU has seven Jesuits on the BOT. Anyone see that press release on the DOE report or fine? Waiting on Walker's FOIA release article.
I hold MU Admin at fault more than Buzz for the following:
1) not controlling the media situation what is happening and allowing the newspapers to control the story. if anyone knows anything about pr strategy, it's not about being right or wrong, it's about controlling the news flow. and any pr pro worth a pay check can do this. if you can't, fire their ass.
2) marquette was reactive, which will always lead to defense rather offense. you need to be in front of these issues. they need to know the law better than cops/da/news. for not having the right people in place, management failed.
Remember Buzz is not a PR firm. They sit on the BOT. And those firms suck ass. I wouldn't let them rep my brands if we somehow poisoned 10,000 people. I wouldn't let Anne Zizzo near my RFP. Her company is a hatchet company at best.
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Plus 1 Chili -- you're right on regarding Marquette PR efforts.
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Oh, Lenny.
Had the Hiroshimites left it at "I don't think Larry and Buzz are bosom buddies" you (they) wouldn't have received much argument or grief.
However, that's not where it was left. Instead, over the past six months we've heard claims such as:
- Buzz isn't being allowed to recruit JUCOs
- multiple players are being forced out
- new academic standards are being imposed retroactively
- Buzz was forced to suspend Todd Mayo (and every other player he's suspended)
- Buzz didn't suspended players until Larry Williams came along
- Todd Mayo is a victim of new academic standards
- The administration is scaling back the program
None of these claims have proven true, and all the evidence so far indicates they are false.
So, if you want to claim Goodman's remark as some kind of vindication, have at it. But some of us know better.
You do realize many of the tin foil hat club pointed toward Larry's remarks to the Journal Sentinel as being idiotic, and toxic to the relationship between Buzz and Larry...and evidence of a rift...and that the rift could cause Buzz to leave. There is no doubt there's been a power struggle...Buzz threatening/flirting with SMU was a ploy to get some power back that was being stripped away/attempted to be stripped away.
Buzz had a very pointed radio interview in the early spring talking about how "some" felt JUCO's didn't really belong at MU, and he liked it, because he now knew where those people stood, what their character was about, and that they weren't for giving kids a chance that had less than ideal backgrounds. Did he flat out say it was Larry Williams or Pilarz?? Nope. Could the inference be drawn given everything else going on at that time? Absolutely.
There were many letters written to the Admin and BOT as a result of Buzz's flirtation with SMU, and those letters, as well as some influential donors speaking up...caused a pause with regard to what was being leveled/attempted....and Buzz was able to "win" some of what was being attempted to be stripped from him - JUCO recruiting being one of them.
But hey, for as many of us tin foilers....there are just as many of you head in the sanders.
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You do realize many of the tin foil hat club pointed toward Larry's remarks to the Journal Sentinel as being idiotic, and toxic to the relationship between Buzz and Larry...and evidence of a rift...and that the rift could cause Buzz to leave. There is no doubt there's been a power struggle...Buzz threatening/flirting with SMU was a ploy to get some power back that was being stripped away/attempted to be stripped away.
Buzz had a very pointed radio interview in the early spring talking about how "some" felt JUCO's didn't really belong at MU, and he liked it, because he now knew where those people stood, what their character was about, and that they weren't for giving kids a chance that had less than ideal backgrounds. Did he flat out say it was Larry Williams or Pilarz?? Nope. Could the inference be drawn given everything else going on at that time? Absolutely.
There were many letters written to the Admin and BOT as a result of Buzz's flirtation with SMU, and those letters, as well as some influential donors speaking up...caused a pause with regard to what was being leveled/attempted....and Buzz was able to "win" some of what was being attempted to be stripped from him - JUCO recruiting being one of them.
But hey, for as many of us tin foilers....there are just as many of you head in the sanders.
Neither tin-foiler nor head-in-sander here.
Just a Marquette alum and loyal fan who can't waste so much energy on something he has 0.00% control over.
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Any more idiotic crap in this thread and I'll ban Kenosha for making everyone feel like they're entitled to say whatever they want. No wait...I'll ban you for saying whatever you want. What the heck, everyone is banned!
For the record, we've received several "requests" to ban Kenosha - and while I'll agree that he's posted some really, uh, off the wall thoughts lately, those aren't against the rules. In case you need a brief rules refresher, see the "Welcome" post that has been pinned to the top for eternity now, but also remember that we expect you can self moderate. But if you become a moderation problem then we reserve the right to "remedy" problems.
edit: And I posted this before I read this thread (http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=33883.0), I'll leave a couple more thoughts there.
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Any more idiotic crap in this thread and I'll ban Kenosha for making everyone feel like their entitled to say whatever they want.
*they're
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*they're
That's it. You're banned buddy.
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I can't help but get pissed about this tension that clearly exists at some level. We have a seemingly very genuine, talented, young, charismatic, successful coach who seemed to appreciate the opportunity he was given and values of the University, and now those feeli f'd of goodwill seem to have been jeopardized.
Not to say Buzz doesn't have his areas to improve on, I'm sure he does, but who doesn't? I also don't mean he is larger than life and should be given carte blanche to do whatever he wants. I don't know that he wants that anyway. Given the positives he has demonstrated, he has earned the right to feel valued and appreciated, and I'm not sure that he does despite a hefty contract. To me, that's a shame, and stupid on LW's part. Frankly, unless there is a lot more there than meets the eye, LW may be a lot easier to replace than Buzz if he can't get along or make the most important person is his department feel good about wanting to be there.
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My theory....Goodman doesn't know sh1t, and got his insight on Buzz and LW from the tin foil wearing Hiroshimaists while readin scoop. ;D
Works for Woeful in Racine
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Didn't we have this conversation last spring?
Zzzzzzzzzzzzz xkjnbztr zzzzzzzzzz (I have sleep apnea) zzzzzzzzzrthjklnbbzzzzzzzz
I just had a sleep study and I found out i have sleep apnea. Do you wear the mask? If so does it help a ton?
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I just had a sleep study and I found out i have sleep apnea. Do you wear the mask? If so does it help a ton?
Yes and yes. Won't travel without it.
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There were many letters written to the Admin and BOT as a result of Buzz's flirtation with SMU, and those letters, as well as some influential donors speaking up...caused a pause with regard to what was being leveled/attempted....and Buzz was able to "win" some of what was being attempted to be stripped from him - JUCO recruiting being one of them.
That is simply not true. Buzz was never told he couldn't recruit JUCOs. There was nothing to "win."
Throughout this entire episode with Buzz and LW, you have made numerous statements passing them off as fact when indeed they were nothing but guesses. Yeah, it is obvious that LW and Buzz are not best of friends, but making stuff up doesn't help your case.
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I can't help but get pissed about this tension that clearly exists at some level. We have a seemingly very genuine, talented, young, charismatic, successful coach who seemed to appreciate the opportunity he was given and values of the University, and now those feeli f'd of goodwill seem to have been jeopardized.
Not to say Buzz doesn't have his areas to improve on, I'm sure he does, but who doesn't? I also don't mean he is larger than life and should be given carte blanche to do whatever he wants. I don't know that he wants that anyway. Given the positives he has demonstrated, he has earned the right to feel valued and appreciated, and I'm not sure that he does despite a hefty contract. To me, that's a shame, and stupid on LW's part. Frankly, unless there is a lot more there than meets the eye, LW may be a lot easier to replace than Buzz if he can't get along or make the most important person is his department feel good about wanting to be there.
Don't get your hopes up. I really doubt the BOT or SP want LW replaced.
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You do realize many of the tin foil hat club pointed toward Larry's remarks to the Journal Sentinel as being idiotic, and toxic to the relationship between Buzz and Larry...and evidence of a rift...and that the rift could cause Buzz to leave. There is no doubt there's been a power struggle...Buzz threatening/flirting with SMU was a ploy to get some power back that was being stripped away/attempted to be stripped away.
Buzz had a very pointed radio interview in the early spring talking about how "some" felt JUCO's didn't really belong at MU, and he liked it, because he now knew where those people stood, what their character was about, and that they weren't for giving kids a chance that had less than ideal backgrounds. Did he flat out say it was Larry Williams or Pilarz?? Nope. Could the inference be drawn given everything else going on at that time? Absolutely.
There were many letters written to the Admin and BOT as a result of Buzz's flirtation with SMU, and those letters, as well as some influential donors speaking up...caused a pause with regard to what was being leveled/attempted....and Buzz was able to "win" some of what was being attempted to be stripped from him - JUCO recruiting being one of them.
But hey, for as many of us tin foilers....there are just as many of you head in the sanders.
Goodman appears to be a reliable source, and he's confirmed that LW and BW aren't best friends.
I don't think that Goodman's article confirms everything else you wrote.
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What we have to hope for is that there are no new transgressions. That is what Buzz, Larry and everyone else wants. The players keep their noses clean and Buzz does not dance on an opponents home floor everything will be fine.
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Don't get your hopes up. I really doubt the BOT or SP want LW replaced.
I agree; wishful thinking on my part.
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Oh, Lenny.
Had the Hiroshimites left it at "I don't think Larry and Buzz are bosom buddies" you (they) wouldn't have received much argument or grief.
However, that's not where it was left. Instead, over the past six months we've heard claims such as:
- Buzz isn't being allowed to recruit JUCOs
- multiple players are being forced out
- new academic standards are being imposed retroactively
- Buzz was forced to suspend Todd Mayo (and every other player he's suspended)
- Buzz didn't suspended players until Larry Williams came along
- Todd Mayo is a victim of new academic standards
- The administration is scaling back the program
None of these claims have proven true, and all the evidence so far indicates they are false.
So, if you want to claim Goodman's remark as some kind of vindication, have at it. But some of us know better.
Pakuni,
"I don't think Larry (+ Fr. Pilarz) and Buzz are bosom buddies" IS pretty much where I left it. A lot of people shared information, and my ONLY nugget was from someone inside the athletic department. In April 2011, this source said Buzz was very happy and hoped to be a Marquette lifer. By February 2012, this same source said that Buzz was miserable. What EXACTLY happened to mess with happy? Don't know, and never said I did. But it doesn't take Holmesian powers of deduction to figure what changed between those two dates.
So, again, I have no idea what the specifics are regarding the rift between the administration and Buzz and really don't want to argue over them. Hiroshima, to me, isn't changed academic standards, dorm policies or any single administration mandate. My Hiroshima would be losing the best coach and representative Marquette University has had since Al McGuire because he feels a once ideal workplace isn't anymore. IMO there are scores of people who could replace Fr Pilarz or LW - MU would barely feel the ripple. OTOH, Buzz is MU's 2nd winning lottery ticket (along with Al) in the last 50 years. The odds against a third are very long.
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Pakuni,
"I don't think Larry (+ Fr. Pilarz) and Buzz are bosom buddies" IS pretty much where I left it. A lot of people shared information, and my ONLY nugget was from someone inside the athletic department. In April 2011, this source said Buzz was very happy and hoped to be a Marquette lifer. By February 2012, this same source said that Buzz was miserable. What EXACTLY happened to mess with happy? Don't know, and never said I did. But it doesn't take Holmesian powers of deduction to figure what changed between those two dates.
So, again, I have no idea what the specifics are regarding the rift between the administration and Buzz and really don't want to argue over them. Hiroshima, to me, isn't changed academic standards, dorm policies or any single administration mandate. My Hiroshima would be losing the best coach and representative Marquette University has had since Al McGuire because he feels a once ideal workplace isn't anymore. IMO there are scores of people who could replace Fr Pilarz or LW - MU would barely feel the ripple. OTOH, Buzz is MU's 2nd winning lottery ticket (along with Al) in the last 50 years. The odds against a third are very long.
+1
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At some point don't the boosters have some input on this? Or at least their checkbooks.
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At some point don't the boosters have some input on this? Or at least their checkbooks.
Of course, but keep in mind that there could always be a boatload of money bigger than yours coming from the opposite side. Just ask Wayne Sanders.
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Of course, but keep in mind that there could always be a boatload of money bigger than yours coming from the opposite side. Just ask Wayne Sanders.
I'm not sure what you're referencing. Would you mind enlightening me?
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I'm not sure what you're referencing. Would you mind enlightening me?
Wayne Sanders was the 2004 Marquette Graduation Commencement speaker. His speech is most remembered for him saying he would donate $1,000,000 to Marquette if they changed the nickname back to Warriors, and that another anonymous donor would match that. Shortly thereafter we went through the whole Gold fiasco, but despite the $2M promised donation, Warriors was never on the table.
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So those who don't like Warriors donated more or threatened to withold donation?
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Potentially. There are a lot of stories that dropping Warriors was connected to getting the Valley Fields land from Potowatomi.
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That is simply not true. Buzz was never told he couldn't recruit JUCOs. There was nothing to "win."
Throughout this entire episode with Buzz and LW, you have made numerous statements passing them off as fact when indeed they were nothing but guesses. Yeah, it is obvious that LW and Buzz are not best of friends, but making stuff up doesn't help your case.
Please. There many here who wanted to think things were just fine between Buzz and LW, that there was no rift, that the statements made to the JS were no big deal...you included. I have not made numerous statements here passing them off as facts when indeed they were guesses...the latest by Goodman basically affirms what I've written and shared on this topic (and been ridiculed by some) for the last 7 months. Sorry if it bothers you that what I've shared and been hazed for is starting to get revealed as truth instead of "nothing but guesses."
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Please. There many here who wanted to think things were just fine between Buzz and LW, that there was no rift, that the statements made to the JS were no big deal...you included. I have not made numerous statements here passing them off as facts when indeed they were guesses...the latest by Goodman basically affirms what I've written and shared on this topic (and been ridiculed by some) for the last 7 months. Sorry if it bothers you that what I've shared and been hazed for is starting to get revealed as truth instead of "nothing but guesses."
You got all that from "Buzz and Larry Williams aren't exactly bosom buddies"?
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So those who don't like Warriors donated more or threatened to withold donation?
I can tell you for a fact that people used to donate less money because the name was the Golden Eagles and not the Warriors. I used to work in the Blue and Gold Fund office and I saw plenty of donations for low amounts of money that said something to the effect of, "When we are back to the warriors, this will be 100x as much money".
Also, Ners, are you sure you aren't a politician?
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Lenny
Great post. You are correct on replaciing Larry or Pilarz is easier task than replacing Buzz. I really do not think any one thing caused the problem aside from new boss not liking Buzz as much as the old one. I said in spring that basically comes down to philosophy and that was and is the issue. Buzz is unique guy and his style is not for everyone. Funny thing is same held true for Al and KO to some degree.
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At some point don't the boosters have some input on this? Or at least their checkbooks.
Boosters/donors have input into everything...when SP came in, one of the first things that jumped to the top of the to do list was tearing McCormick down - numerous big time donors objected and its now moved down the list and seen a substantial investment to install sprinkler systems on every floor.
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Please. There many here who wanted to think things were just fine between Buzz and LW, that there was no rift, that the statements made to the JS were no big deal...you included. I have not made numerous statements here passing them off as facts when indeed they were guesses...the latest by Goodman basically affirms what I've written and shared on this topic (and been ridiculed by some) for the last 7 months. Sorry if it bothers you that what I've shared and been hazed for is starting to get revealed as truth instead of "nothing but guesses."
Saying that a boss and his direct report "aren't exactly bosom buddies" is NOT the same thing as saying that there's a rift between the two people.
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Saying that a boss and his direct report "aren't exactly bosom buddies" is NOT the same thing as saying that there's a rift between the two people.
True, but when the writer suggests that not being bosom buddies might precipitate a move from Buzz, I'd say the implication of a rift is there.
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A timely piece about Larry
http://www.marquette.edu/magazine/recent.php?subaction=showfull&id=1349369276&archive=&start_from=&ucat=7&
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A timely piece about Larry
http://www.marquette.edu/magazine/recent.php?subaction=showfull&id=1349369276&archive=&start_from=&ucat=7&
Quote from the article:
“We are NOT de-emphasizing basketball,” he declares. “I expect us to compete for national championships, and I believe we’ll have the means to do it at Marquette, but there’s more to it than that. We’re going to do it the right way. We can be a beacon for what’s good in college athletics.” [emplasis added]
I'm sure many people will disagree, but I interpret the fact that LW feels the need to clarify that the basketball team will compete "the right way" implies that he feels that things currently and/or previously were not done the right way. If they were already doing it the right way, he shouldn't feel the need to offer that clarification. These little cues keep popping up and feed into the perception of a conflict with Buzz.
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A timely piece about Larry
http://www.marquette.edu/magazine/recent.php?subaction=showfull&id=1349369276&archive=&start_from=&ucat=7&
Whoa! Huge huge error on the writer's part here:"a shakeup in the athletics department resulting from complaints over the handling of sexual-misconduct allegations against some Marquette basketball players."
When I was on the Trib we were not allowed to say it was against basketball players, and had to refer to it simply as student-athletes. We even got chided by the provost himself for singling out the basketball players in an editorial. I can't believe a Marquette publication would be that careless.
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So I am confused by the Goodman blurb on Buzz.
Why would Goodman put it out there now?
1) Rehashing old material - does not seem likely...
2) He put it out there without Buzz's knowledge - does not seem likely
3) Buzz had him put it out there - more likely
But why would Buzz have him put it out there? If Buzz is unhappy and looking at leaving, why stir the pot now? He could easily just keep quiet, have a great season and take the best job / highest bidder or both in spring.
Or... Buzz likes it here, wants to stay, wants people to know there are issues with him and LW and wants help pressuring the admin to "not mess with his happy"
thoughts?
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A timely piece about Larry
http://www.marquette.edu/magazine/recent.php?subaction=showfull&id=1349369276&archive=&start_from=&ucat=7&
Was just about to post this link. Very straight forward on what he wants to accomplish and does not come across as a person that will meet you half way to compromise.
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Whoa! Huge huge error on the writer's part here:"a shakeup in the athletics department resulting from complaints over the handling of sexual-misconduct allegations against some Marquette basketball players."
When I was on the Trib we were not allowed to say it was against basketball players, and had to refer to it simply as student-athletes. We even got chided by the provost himself for singling out the basketball players in an editorial. I can't believe a Marquette publication would be that careless.
My goodness. After the lengths they've gone to to avoid having those allegations associated with the basketball team -- remember when they trotted Buzz out to say that Marquette takes allegations of sexual assault seriously, but then insisted that having Buzz make that statement was NOT an admission that the allegations involved the basketball team? -- that's a really, really bad mistake.
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It was written by Dan McGrath, former Sports Editor for the Chicago Tribune
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Quote from the article:
“We are NOT de-emphasizing basketball,” he declares. “I expect us to compete for national championships, and I believe we’ll have the means to do it at Marquette, but there’s more to it than that. We’re going to do it the right way. We can be a beacon for what’s good in college athletics.” [emplasis added]
I'm sure many people will disagree, but I interpret the fact that LW feels the need to clarify that the basketball team will compete "the right way" implies that he feels that things currently and/or previously were not done the right way. If they were already doing it the right way, he shouldn't feel the need to offer that clarification. These little cues keep popping up and feed into the perception of a conflict with Buzz.
I agree. When LW gives his vision of what MU can become (a beacon for what's good in college athletics), by definition he's ripping what came before. Any coach (especially one as concerned about his players as Buzz is) would be offended. Hell, as an alum and 46 year fan of what I consider to be a program than has generally done it the right way, I'm offended. His self importance should be offensive to everyone.
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I have an idea. Let's enjoy this season and hope/pray we make the NCAA Tournament. Thanks.
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Article sure makes him seem like a prick. I went to Notre Dame; my kids go to Yale. I worked my way through law school (albeit a crapty one) while playing in the NFL. My former NFL friends are now struggling because they didn't do what I did. I'm going to build a beacon of light in a dark world. I really care about these kids and preparing them for life after school (as opposed to Buzz, who is a coach that just cares about winning to promote his career). If you value success on the court, then you are using the basketball players (as opposed to continuing to refuse to pay them and just keep the proceeds for the university while spinning this BS).
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I agree. When LW gives his vision of what MU can become (a beacon for what's good in college athletics), by definition he's ripping what came before. Any coach (especially one as concerned about his players as Buzz is) would be offended. Hell, as an alum and 46 year fan of what I consider to be a program than has generally done it the right way, I'm offended. His self importance should be offensive to everyone.
Once again, completely over the top, but I guess that's one way of looking at it.
Another way of looking at it is that he's not ripping what came before. He's ackowledging that there have been issues (and there sure seem to have been issues) and stating the his and MU's expectation that they can (and should be able to) compete at the highest level WITHOUT those issues occuring again in the future. That's his job and it's what a school like Marquette should strive for.
Now how the hell is that offensive?
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I have an idea. Let's enjoy this season and hope/pray we make the NCAA Tournament. Thanks.
Boring.
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Article sure makes him seem like a prick. I went to Notre Dame; my kids go to Yale. I worked my way through law school (albeit a crapty one) while playing in the NFL. My former NFL friends are now struggling because they didn't do what I did. I'm going to build a beacon of light in a dark world. I really care about these kids and preparing them for life after school (as opposed to Buzz, who is a coach that just cares about winning to promote his career). If you value success on the court, then you are using the basketball players (as opposed to continuing to refuse to pay them and just keep the proceeds for the university while spinning this BS).
He went to ND and he's a prick. What are the odds?
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Article sure makes him seem like a prick. I went to Notre Dame; my kids go to Yale. I worked my way through law school (albeit a crapty one) while playing in the NFL. My former NFL friends are now struggling because they didn't do what I did. I'm going to build a beacon of light in a dark world. I really care about these kids and preparing them for life after school (as opposed to Buzz, who is a coach that just cares about winning to promote his career). If you value success on the court, then you are using the basketball players (as opposed to continuing to refuse to pay them and just keep the proceeds for the university while spinning this BS).
The University of San Diego actually has a very good law school.
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Quote from the article:
“We are NOT de-emphasizing basketball,” he declares. “I expect us to compete for national championships, and I believe we’ll have the means to do it at Marquette, but there’s more to it than that. We’re going to do it the right way. We can be a beacon for what’s good in college athletics.” [emplasis added]
I'm sure many people will disagree, but I interpret the fact that LW feels the need to clarify that the basketball team will compete "the right way" implies that he feels that things currently and/or previously were not done the right way. If they were already doing it the right way, he shouldn't feel the need to offer that clarification. These little cues keep popping up and feed into the perception of a conflict with Buzz.
I think the implication is that other schools haven't done it the "right way".
A lot of schools competing for national titles have done it the wrong way (Memphis, Ohio State, etc.).
But, maybe he's trying to rip Buzz. I have no idea anymore.
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What we have to hope for is that there are no new transgressions. That is what Buzz, Larry and everyone else wants. The players keep their noses clean and Buzz does not dance on an opponents home floor everything will be fine.
That's HARDLY a transgression, more like entertaining as hell and a reason why I love Buzz. Anyone honestly offended by that is a complete loser. Or a West Virginia fan, but I think my previous statement covered that.
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Once again, completely over the top, but I guess that's one way of looking at it.
Another way of looking at it is that he's not ripping what came before. He's ackowledging that there have been issues (and there sure seem to have been issues) and stating the his and MU's expectation that they can (and should be able to) compete at the highest level WITHOUT those issues occuring again in the future. That's his job and it's what a school like Marquette should strive for.
Now how the hell is that offensive?
Yes. Thank you.
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Please. There many here who wanted to think things were just fine between Buzz and LW, that there was no rift, that the statements made to the JS were no big deal...you included. I have not made numerous statements here passing them off as facts when indeed they were guesses...the latest by Goodman basically affirms what I've written and shared on this topic (and been ridiculed by some) for the last 7 months. Sorry if it bothers you that what I've shared and been hazed for is starting to get revealed as truth instead of "nothing but guesses."
FACT: Buzz was never told he could never recruit JUCOs.
You made it up.
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Once again, completely over the top, but I guess that's one way of looking at it.
Another way of looking at it is that he's not ripping what came before. He's ackowledging that there have been issues (and there sure seem to have been issues) and stating the his and MU's expectation that they can (and should be able to) compete at the highest level WITHOUT those issues occuring again in the future. That's his job and it's what a school like Marquette should strive for.
Now how the hell is that offensive?
Because people, no matter what happens, will never give him the benefit of the doubt.
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Yeah. Maybe buzz should be more offended by the behavior of his players.
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Because people, no matter what happens, will never give him the benefit of the doubt.
Truthfully, this is just dividing up like politics now. If you like X guy, you think he's right, and you will be "offended" by what Y guy says.
If you like Y guy, you will interpret X guy's statements differently and be offended by X guy.
You want to know who won the presidential debate? Whoever you liked before you watched it.
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Truthfully, this is just dividing up like politics now. If you like X guy, you think he's right, and you will be "offended" by what Y guy says.
If you like Y guy, you will interpret X guy's statements differently and be offended by X guy.
You want to know who won the presidential debate? Whoever you liked before you watched it.
Unfortunately, there is a whole lot of truth to this.
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“With his energy, his vision and his commitment, Larry is exactly the type of leader we need,” Broeker says. “He’s a man you’d want to help raise your kids.”
Yep sure sounds like a prick according to Broeker (or is Broeker now a prick too?)
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Once again, completely over the top, but I guess that's one way of looking at it.
Another way of looking at it is that he's not ripping what came before. He's ackowledging that there have been issues (and there sure seem to have been issues) and stating the his and MU's expectation that they can (and should be able to) compete at the highest level WITHOUT those issues occuring again in the future. That's his job and it's what a school like Marquette should strive for.
Now how the hell is that offensive?
If he had said he was here to help MU continue to be an example of a university that does it the right way I would say hallelujah! That's not what he said.
You're certainly entitled to your own opinion, but when I read this article he came across to me as extremely self important - the boss I'm glad I never had. You can twist his words or add ones never spoken to make him look better, but that would be over the top, no?
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If he had said he was here to help MU continue to be an example of a university that does it the right way I would say hallelujah! That's not what he said.
Why would he say that? He was brought in because the BOT felt there were serious problems with the athletic department, especially the oversight of the basketball program. So he's going to say: "Nah, turns out everything was great. No idea what they thought the problem was"?
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Sounds like Goodman asked Buzz a question like, "So are you real chummy with LW?"
And Buzz answered honestly, "No. We're not close friends."
And Goodman, comparing that answer to what other suck-up HCs might have said, extrapolated that to mean, "Uh oh. Trouble in Brewtown."
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Yeah. Maybe buzz should be more offended by the behavior of his players. But hey isn't this the coach who called a team meeting so the players could get their stories straight before meeting with police and at the same meeting had the players call the girl. Buzz may have some character issues of his own
Rob?
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Marquette is a catholic school. We had basketball players (Allegedly) *EDITED to calm some people down* sexually assault a girl. I love Buzz, I love MU basketball, but the school F'ed up, Buzz F'ed up to the point of him deserving to be fired and now we're cleaning up our act. It's plain and it's simple, and if Buzz hadn't been to back to back sweet 16's we wouldn't give a crap that our AD didn't like him. The PROGRAM is bigger than BUZZ Buzz didn't go to a final 4 and win a national championship, Buzz didn't recruit a diamond in the rough who led us to a final four, and was a top 5 talent in the NBA (yet), Buzz didn't do anything to get the Al, or the Jordan sponsorship. The program was here before Buzz it will be here after Buzz.
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If he had said he was here to help MU continue to be an example of a university that does it the right way I would say hallelujah! That's not what he said.
You're certainly entitled to your own opinion, but when I read this article he came across to me as extremely self important - the boss I'm glad I never had. You can twist his words or add ones never spoken to make him look better, but that would be over the top, no?
I'm not interested with making him look better because that's absolutely futile with many on here, so why waste the time.
And, I didn't twist his words or add words he didn't say. I interpreted his words in an objective way, and came to a different conclusion than you.
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I miss basketball. November 9th cannot come fast enough.
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LW is simply a mouth piece. He is talking the corporate line. I would not blame him for any of this when Buzz bolts after the season.
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I'm not interested with making him look better because that's absolutely futile with many on here, so why waste the time.
And, I didn't twist his words or add words he didn't say. I interpreted his words in an objective way, and came to a different conclusion than you.
Fair enough
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Pakuni,
"I don't think Larry (+ Fr. Pilarz) and Buzz are bosom buddies" IS pretty much where I left it. A lot of people shared information, and my ONLY nugget was from someone inside the athletic department. In April 2011, this source said Buzz was very happy and hoped to be a Marquette lifer. By February 2012, this same source said that Buzz was miserable. What EXACTLY happened to mess with happy? Don't know, and never said I did. But it doesn't take Holmesian powers of deduction to figure what changed between those two dates.
I can't say which doom-and-gloom scenario you did or didn't offer, and am not inclined to search all your posts to ferret that out. I'll take you at your word. Nonethless, everything I cited there was claimed by someone here, and every one of those has been shown false. Agreed?
As for Holmesian powers, I would suggest that a lot happened between April 2011 and February 2012 that had nothing to do with Larry Williams. Such as a couple of pretty damning stories in the Chicago Tribune.
So, again, I have no idea what the specifics are regarding the rift between the administration and Buzz and really don't want to argue over them. Hiroshima, to me, isn't changed academic standards, dorm policies or any single administration mandate. My Hiroshima would be losing the best coach and representative Marquette University has had since Al McGuire because he feels a once ideal workplace isn't anymore. IMO there are scores of people who could replace Fr Pilarz or LW - MU would barely feel the ripple. OTOH, Buzz is MU's 2nd winning lottery ticket (along with Al) in the last 50 years. The odds against a third are very long.
OK, maybe this is sacrilege to some, but Buzz is not the best MU coach since McGuire. He may even have to battle O'Neill for third best.
Yeah, Crean is a douche, but:
One Final Four >>>>>>>> Two Sweet Sixteens
Wade, Diener, Novak >>>>>>>> Butler, Crowder, DJO
I won't give Crean total credit for the Big East and Al (because he doesn't deserve total credit) but he was the the leader and face of the program when those things happened.
And, unless I'm mistaken Crean took over an IU program in the dumps and after four years has them the #1 ranked team in the country.
Buzz still has a ways to go to top the things that Crean did and is doing.
O'Neill got this program to the Sweet 16 (and was still on the rise when he left) without any of the advantages Buzz has. He was 44-17 (.721) his final two seasons at MU. Buzz is 49-22 the past two (.690).
It's not the open-and-shut case you want to make it, and if nothing else it proves that landing a quality coach at Marquette is hardly akin to winning the lottery once every five decades. Fact is, three of MU's last four coaches have been very successful.
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Larry better be pretty f****** confident about potential replacements.
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Marquette is a catholic school. We had basketball players sexually assault a girl and our former AD, and a few even higher than our AD helped to protect those players. I love Buzz, I love MU basketball, but the school F'ed up, Buzz F'ed up to the point of him deserving to be fired and now we're cleaning up our act. It's plain and it's simple, and if Buzz hadn't been to back to back sweet 16's we wouldn't give a crap that our AD didn't like him. The PROGRAM is bigger than BUZZ Buzz didn't go to a final 4 and win a national championship, Buzz didn't recruit a diamond in the rough who led us to a final four, and was a top 5 talent in the NBA (yet), Buzz didn't do anything to get the Al, or the Jordan sponsorship. The program was here before Buzz it will be here after Buzz.
So you're the judge, jury and executioner in a he said/she said accusation that never resulted in any charges. Thanks for clearing things up.
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Larry better be pretty f****** confident about potential replacements.
Well said
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He has had five months of prep work on identifying replacement list already. I agree it better be some list.
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The University of San Diego actually has a very good law school.
I'd hardly call number 65 in USNWR and probably the sixth or seventh best law school in the state a "very good law school".
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I'd hardly call number 65 in USNWR and probably the sixth or seventh best law school in the state a "very good law school".
What does that make Marquette?
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What does that make Marquette?
95th.
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What does that make Marquette?
Downright awful, apparently.
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I'd hardly call number 65 in USNWR and probably the sixth or seventh best law school in the state a "very good law school".
The fact that you're now debating the quality of the U. of San Diego Law School shoes how utterly asinine the LW bashing has become. The guy earned a law degree from, yes, a good school while playing in the NFL (which I'd suggest is how he ended up at USD). Clearly a bright and motivated guy. That doesn't necessarily mean he is a good AD, but questioning his education is stupid.
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Interesting:
University of San Diego School of Law, notable alumni:
Theo Epstein, 2000, President of Baseball Operations for the Chicago Cubs
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OK, maybe this is sacrilege to some, but Buzz is not the best MU coach since McGuire. He may even have to battle O'Neill for third best.
Yeah, Crean is a douche, but:
One Final Four >>>>>>>> Two Sweet Sixteens
Wade, Diener, Novak >>>>>>>> Butler, Crowder, DJO
I won't give Crean total credit for the Big East and Al (because he doesn't deserve total credit) but he was the the leader and face of the program when those things happened.
And, unless I'm mistaken Crean took over an IU program in the dumps and after four years has them the #1 ranked team in the country.
Buzz still has a ways to go to top the things that Crean did and is doing.
O'Neill got this program to the Sweet 16 (and was still on the rise when he left) without any of the advantages Buzz has. He was 44-17 (.721) his final two seasons at MU. Buzz is 49-22 the past two (.690).
It's not the open-and-shut case you want to make it, and if nothing else it proves that landing a quality coach at Marquette is hardly akin to winning the lottery once every five decades. Fact is, three of MU's last four coaches have been very successful.
Sure hope you aren't responsible for hiring people, because as a talent evaluator, you are awful. Wade couldn't have even come here if we were in the Big East...no BCS schools could even recruit him...due to his partial qualifier status. Wade = Final Four. Travis Diener and Steve Novak along with Scott Merritt and the rest of the Final Four team sans Wade and Jackson = Back to Back NIT. Crean = Working under Father Wild and Bill Cords - champions of athletics. Buzz now working with totally different Administration with clearly a different view on athletics.
O'Neill was great - yet comparing the record of a coach, coaching in the MCC, and Great Midwest Conference, as opposed to one who has coached exclusively in the most difficult conference in America all 4 years is apples to oranges.
Lastly, back to back Sweet 16's haven't happened at MU since Al McGuire....35+ years...so if getting great coaches at MU is so easy, why did it take us 35 years to get to back to back Sweet 16s...and just 4 in the last 35 years total - which I believe is exactly what Xavier has accomplished in the last 6 years. Program and depth of talent in it are better than anytime since Al.
Get a clue Pakuni.
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I shouldn't be shocked that the thread title "Buzz and Larry Williams Aren't Bosom Buddies..." has generated 5 pages already, but I still am.
I mean, if someone walked up to me on the street and said "Buzz and Larry Williams Aren't Bosom Buddies...", I'd probably say, "No doubt! But then again I'm not bosom buddies with my boss either".
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The fact that you're now debating the quality of the U. of San Diego Law School shoes how utterly asinine the LW bashing has become. The guy earned a law degree from, yes, a good school while playing in the NFL (which I'd suggest is how he ended up at USD). Clearly a bright and motivated guy. That doesn't necessarily mean he is a good AD, but questioning his education is stupid.
My point wasn't the quality of his alma mater, it was the tone of the article. I'm so motivated that I went to law school while other guys played cards on the team flight. They are now struggling, I'm doing great, so it's my duty to save our current players from those same mistakes. He just comes off as the "I know best", "I will save others from themselves"-type, which annoys me.
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What a mess.
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My point wasn't the quality of his alma mater, it was the tone of the article. I'm so motivated that I went to law school while other guys played cards on the team flight. They are now struggling, I'm doing great, so it's my duty to save our current players from those same mistakes. He just comes off as the "I know best", "I will save others from themselves"-type, which annoys me.
Kind of reminds of "I'm looking forward to helping him grow as a coach." Or, "He ties his tie too tight - and he will either irrevocably offend someone or his head will explode."
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My point wasn't the quality of his alma mater, it was the tone of the article. I'm so motivated that I went to law school while other guys played cards on the team flight. They are now struggling, I'm doing great, so it's my duty to save our current players from those same mistakes. He just comes off as the "I know best", "I will save others from themselves"-type, which annoys me.
The tone comes across as a little holier than thou but I have no problem with him making the point that a lot of athletes don't prepare themselves for life after athletics and he doesn't want to see MU athletes fall into that trap.
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I agree. When LW gives his vision of what MU can become (a beacon for what's good in college athletics), by definition he's ripping what came before. Any coach (especially one as concerned about his players as Buzz is) would be offended. Hell, as an alum and 46 year fan of what I consider to be a program than has generally done it the right way, I'm offended. His self importance should be offensive to everyone.
I think Larry's comments are the equivalent of telling your wife/girlfriend/mistress:
"You look really good tonight."
and her firing back:
"Don't I look good every night? What are you trying to say?"
It appears like Larry is trying to say the right thing(s), but fans are already on the defensive and certainly nitpicking everything the guy says.
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I think Larry's comments are the equivalent of telling your wife/girlfriend/mistress:
"You look really good tonight."
and her firing back:
"Don't I look good every night? What are you trying to say?"
It appears like Larry is trying to say the right thing(s), but fans are already on the defensive and certainly nitpicking everything the guy says.
When Buzz was introduced as head coach, he said his priority would be to develop his players as students, athletes and people.
Obviously he believes prior MU coaches didn't do that.
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"I don't think Larry (+ Fr. Pilarz) and Buzz are bosom buddies" IS pretty much where I left it. A lot of people shared information, and my ONLY nugget was from someone inside the athletic department. In April 2011, this source said Buzz was very happy and hoped to be a Marquette lifer. By February 2012, this same source said that Buzz was miserable. What EXACTLY happened to mess with happy? Don't know, and never said I did. But it doesn't take Holmesian powers of deduction to figure what changed between those two dates.
So, again, I have no idea what the specifics are regarding the rift between the administration and Buzz and really don't want to argue over them. Hiroshima, to me, isn't changed academic standards, dorm policies or any single administration mandate. My Hiroshima would be losing the best coach and representative Marquette University has had since Al McGuire because he feels a once ideal workplace isn't anymore. IMO there are scores of people who could replace Fr Pilarz or LW - MU would barely feel the ripple. OTOH, Buzz is MU's 2nd winning lottery ticket (along with Al) in the last 50 years. The odds against a third are very long.
Lenny, this makes sense to me. What does your source in the Athletic Department say about Buzz's "Level of Happy" here in October 2012? Has he improved from miserable at all?
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I
OK, maybe this is sacrilege to some, but Buzz is not the best MU coach since McGuire. He may even have to battle O'Neill for third best.
Yeah, Crean is a douche, but:
One Final Four >>>>>>>> Two Sweet Sixteens
Wade, Diener, Novak >>>>>>>> Butler, Crowder, DJO
I won't give Crean total credit for the Big East and Al (because he doesn't deserve total credit) but he was the the leader and face of the program when those things happened.
And, unless I'm mistaken Crean took over an IU program in the dumps and after four years has them the #1 ranked team in the country.
Buzz still has a ways to go to top the things that Crean did and is doing.
O'Neill got this program to the Sweet 16 (and was still on the rise when he left) without any of the advantages Buzz has. He was 44-17 (.721) his final two seasons at MU. Buzz is 49-22 the past two (.690).
It's not the open-and-shut case you want to make it, and if nothing else it proves that landing a quality coach at Marquette is hardly akin to winning the lottery once every five decades. Fact is, three of MU's last four coaches have been very successful.
Buzz's record is better, he's made the NCAA tournament every year (Crean was 5-9). In 4 years he's won as many NCAA tournament games as TC did in 9. Even more important is the the trajectory Buzz has us on. If he stays MU is positioned to be even better in Buzz's next 4 years. The Crean era peaked in years 3 and 4, his final 5 years producing a grand total of 1 NCAA tournament victory and 2 NIT appearances.
I could go on, but it's pointless to argue with an extreme outlier opinion that ranks Buzz tied for 3rd with KO among MU's alltime coaches. Has Chicos or Hoop hacked into your computer?
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I
Buzz's record is better, he's made the NCAA tournament every year (Crean was 5-9). In 4 years he's won as many NCAA tournament games as TC did in 9. Even more important is the the trajectory Buzz has us on. If he stays MU is positioned to be even better in Buzz's next 4 years. The Crean era peaked in years 3 and 4, his final 5 years producing a grand total of 1 NCAA tournament victory and 2 NIT appearances.
I could go on, but it's pointless to argue with an extreme outlier opinion that ranks Buzz tied for 3rd with KO among MU's alltime coaches. Has Chicos or Hoop hacked into your computer?
You've put me in the unenviable position of defending Tom Crean.
Your analysis conveniently ignores the fact that Buzz took over a borderline top 10 team ( #11 in the preseason rankings his first year, top 10 three weeks into the season) and a program that had been to the tournament three years running, whereas Crean took over a program that couldn't even get an NIT bid. Think perhaps that's relevant when comparing overall records? Not to mention the numerous other advantanges Buzz inherited - conference affiliation, track record of recent success, facilities, etc. - that Crean didn't.
FWIW, rankings this year by Athlon Sports and CBS Sportsline (based on a poll of coaches) place Crean ahead of Buzz in the coaching hierarchy. I can only assume those coaches are a bunch of extreme outliers.
We could go round and round about O'Neill, but the fact is he ultimately achieved what Buzz achieved (getting to the Sweet 16) without any of the financial, fiscal or facility advantages the program has today. I think that's a strong argument that O'Neill did as good a coaching job as Buzz has. You're free to disagree, but at least tell me why O'Neill, in your opinion, did a lesser job than Buzz under their respective circumstances, starting with the state of the programs they took over.
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KO saved the program. Buzz has been building an elite program. Both guys rank over TC IMO and I am not an anti TC guy.
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KO saved the program. Buzz has been building an elite program. Both guys rank over TC IMO and I am not an anti TC guy.
That's fair. I think what KO did at MU is greatly undervalued, probably more because of his personality than anything else. KO saved Marquette from becoming Loyola or Detroit.
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That's fair. I think what KO did at MU is greatly undervalued, probably more because of his personality than anything else. KO saved Marquette from becoming Loyola or Detroit.
+1,000
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That's fair. I think what KO did at MU is greatly undervalued, probably more because of his personality than anything else. KO saved Marquette from becoming Loyola or Detroit.
If KO save MU from becoming Loyola, could we say that TC saved MU from becoming DePaul?
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I think we will get a clue on how big the rift is on Nov 14...
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This entire thread is why even high school coaches tell their athletes to PLEASE stay off of message boards. In the spirit of Coach Al, who would never have even acknowledged a message board existed had he coached in this era, please drop this thread completely and let's speculate on something other than tin foil folded into a million permutations.
I know, not gonna happen. Hey Rocky, play Samantha Stevens and make it all go away....
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This entire thread
(http://cdn.wl.uproxx.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/Anger.gif)
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We could go round and round about O'Neill, but the fact is he ultimately achieved what Buzz achieved (getting to the Sweet 16) without any of the financial, fiscal or facility advantages the program has today. I think that's a strong argument that O'Neill did as good a coaching job as Buzz has. You're free to disagree, but at least tell me why O'Neill, in your opinion, did a lesser job than Buzz under their respective circumstances, starting with the state of the programs they took over.
I really like KO as a coach. Rank him just behind Buzz and ahead of TC.
You're right that Buzz inherted a better team than TC, but he also lost almost that entire team, two transfers and two top recruits by year 2. He totally rebuilt the program, and I think we're in much better shape entering year 5 with Buzz than we were with Crean.
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That's fair. I think what KO did at MU is greatly undervalued, probably more because of his personality than anything else. KO saved Marquette from becoming Loyola or Detroit.
The problem with O'Neill is that he tried to give us a shove back in that direction as he left. He absolutely felt we had already exceeded our ceiling, and said as much in his post departure interviews.
but he also lost almost that entire team, two transfers and two top recruits by year 2. He totally rebuilt the program, and I think we're in much better shape entering year 5 with Buzz than we were with Crean.
Well, not quite the "entire team." Buzz's 2nd year roster still included 7 holdovers (six who originally signed with Crean and one who verballed before Buzz was named coach).
And while Buzz deserves credit for filling the holes, we probably would have been in much better shape entering years 2 and 3 if Buzz hadn't lost Mbakwe and Christopherson.
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Marquette is a catholic school. We had basketball players sexually assault a girl and our former AD, and a few even higher than our AD helped to protect those players. I love Buzz, I love MU basketball, but the school F'ed up, Buzz F'ed up to the point of him deserving to be fired and now we're cleaning up our act. It's plain and it's simple, and if Buzz hadn't been to back to back sweet 16's we wouldn't give a crap that our AD didn't like him. The PROGRAM is bigger than BUZZ Buzz didn't go to a final 4 and win a national championship, Buzz didn't recruit a diamond in the rough who led us to a final four, and was a top 5 talent in the NBA (yet), Buzz didn't do anything to get the Al, or the Jordan sponsorship. The program was here before Buzz it will be here after Buzz.
HFS. You've completely turned yourself into a caricature. Unless you were there, you don't know a good goddamned thing about what happened. So please don't pretend that you know anything about that incident or any other particular incident other than what you read in the printed retardery that passes for newspapers these days.
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LW will be speaking at the Marquette Circles event in New York City tomorrow evening.
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HFS. You've completely turned yourself into a caricature. Unless you were there, you don't know a good goddamned thing about what happened. So please don't pretend that you know anything about that incident or any other particular incident other than what you read in the printed retardery that passes for newspapers these days.
jhags, talk about opening yourself up to a lawsuit all for a post on a board.... wow.
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LW will be speaking at the Marquette Circles event in New York City tomorrow evening.
Can you please attend and ask him what the hell is going on with Buzz and admin so we can get some closure on this issue?
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Can you please attend and ask him what the hell is going on with Buzz and admin so we can get some closure on this issue?
Shall the question be posed, "Are the rumors of Hiroshima true? Are you trying to force BW out?"
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jhags, talk about opening yourself up to a lawsuit all for a post on a board.... wow.
ha? I don't know what the hell you're saying here so I really don't know what else to say. He used the word retardery which is in fact not a word. I never said hey guys I know everything or anything about what happened. I don't speak with any authority. I am a poster on a message board. There's this thing called an ignore button any of you can use...
If the situation became as big as it did with only false accusations I would be shocked. That's all there is to it.
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Shall the question be posed, "Are the rumors of Hiroshima true? Are you trying to force BW out?"
I vote yes. Worst that can happen is you get escorted out ;D
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If the situation became as big as it did with only false accusations I would be shocked. That's all there is to it.
Guys on death row (the "situation" doesn't get any bigger than that) are sometimes exonerated by DNA evidence. As regards sexual assault accusations, two of the "bigger" stories in the recent past (Duke lacrosse and Tywana Bradley) proved to be fiction. That you think an accusation and a couple of articles in the Chicago Tribune is tantamount to proof of guilt speaks only to a closed and very simple mind.
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I will attend and plan to ask him:
about Marquette alternative conference plan,
shouldn't he address his rough edges before fixing Buzz's ( didn't Jesus ask the crownd, he who is without sin, cast the first stone ?),
what is he doing to help Buzz, instead of publically humilating him and the program ? Alabana has over 200 minor violations but don't see the AD running to the press to suspend the football coach.
does he realize his actions hurt the University with donors, alumni, fan base and student applications ?
ANYTHING ELSE I SHOULD ASK ?
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I think it speaks to a mind that doesn't become biased due to affiliations. My thoughts on the situation are X yours are Y, and I am okay with that. I won't insult your intellgence or your mind because we disagree. That's not how I was raised.
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Shall the question be posed, "Are the rumors of Hiroshima true? Are you trying to force BW out?"
Here are my questions: Recently, sportswriter Jeff Goodman wrote that you and Buzz Williams are less than friends and that he may not be at MU much longer. Any truth whatsoever to the long rumored rift between Buzz and the administration? What exactly is your relationship with Buzz? Do you want and expect him to be here for the foreseeable future? If yes, what are you doing to ensure his committment to MU? If not, what is plan B?
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I think it speaks to a mind that doesn't become biased due to affiliations. My thoughts on the situation are X yours are Y, and I am okay with that. I won't insult your intellgence or your mind because we disagree. That's not how I was raised.
So the MPD and Milwaukee DA's office also have bias due to their affiliations with Marquette? Seems they didn't find enough to file charges. But I understand there is a decent segment of the population who tends to subscribe to guilty until proven innocent - but usually they give it a rest once the legal system finds no grounds to press charges. Why are you not able to give it a rest...or retire your "X" thoughts on the situation?
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Well I think it's been well documented that DPS protocol was not followed which impeded the MPD investigation, but yes I will retire my thoughts on the situation.
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I will attend and plan to ask him:
about Marquette alternative conference plan,
shouldn't he address his rough edges before fixing Buzz's ( didn't Jesus ask the crownd, he who is without sin, cast the first stone ?),
what is he doing to help Buzz, instead of publically humilating him and the program ? Alabana has over 200 minor violations but don't see the AD running to the press to suspend the football coach.
does he realize his actions hurt the University with donors, alumni, fan base and student applications ?
ANYTHING ELSE I SHOULD ASK ?
Yeah. Ask him if he thinks it is right for a coach to call a team meeting after an alleged assault so that the players can get their stories straight before meeting with police. And is it good to have the players call the girl on the phone at the meeting.
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Say something stupid. Get called on it. Change screen name.
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Yeah. Ask him if he thinks it is right for a coach to call a team meeting after an alleged assault so that the players can get their stories straight before meeting with police. And is it good to have the players call the girl on the phone at the meeting.
Hearsay. You weren't there.
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So the MPD and Milwaukee DA's office also have bias due to their affiliations with Marquette? Seems they didn't find enough to file charges. But I understand there is a decent segment of the population who tends to subscribe to guilty until proven innocent - but usually they give it a rest once the legal system finds no grounds to press charges. Why are you not able to give it a rest...or retire your "X" thoughts on the situation?
All that you say is true, of course, but not the whole truth.
What are your thoughts on the DA's criticism of the coaching staff for holding a meeting with players before they spoke with any investigating agency?
What are your thoughts on the DA's remarks that the criminal investigation was hampered by the manner in which it was reported to police?
What are your thoughts on the university having found multiple players guilty of harassment and, initially, one player guilty of sex assault?
Do you think the administration is justified in taking action when student-athletes are found guilty of sexually harassing fellow students? Or should they just accept that boys will be boys, and that's OK since players at other schools behave badly as well?
I'll say it again ... none of us know what really happened, and those within the administration almost certainly are acting with the benefit of better information than we have here.
So people (on both sides of the debate) here probably are better off to avoid proclaiming guilt or innocence.
On another note, is anyone going to believe LW if he says he has a good working relationship with Buzz and he hopes Buzz is coach for years to come? If not, why bother asking the question?
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Hearsay. You weren't there.
That's not hearsay, counselor.
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Say something stupid. Get called on it. Change screen name.
I don't think anything I say is stupid, I happen to agree with most of my own opinions.
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On the train ride back to Connecticut after the MU Circles event. Notes from the Larry Williams roundtable.
* Larry got there late because his plane was delayed 8 hrs. Came straight from the airport.
* Expressed his vision for all of Marquette's athletic teams to be elite and successful. Example of the Top 10 men's and women's soccer teams and the volleyball team.
* Besides obviously basketball, heavily emphasized the importance of the other teams need to be elite in order to remain relavent in the current conference shuffle.
* The Fieldhouse - as part of the elite vision above Marquette is in the early planning stages of a year round fieldhouse. Not a bubble over Valley Fields. Because of the Milwaukee weather we need it to attract the elite student athletes.
* Marquette has a Plan B if the Big East implodes. Had imformal discussions with other schools.
* Reiterated the importance of the new Big East tv deal and what sounds like good negoitiating news is that CBS is also apparently interested besides NBC and Fox and well yes ESPN.
* An alum tried to get a question in on his relationship with Buzz. Time was running out and the guy already asked a question so they sort of skipped over him to allow someone else to ask a question.
* Steve Rushin was a goosd host. Had a good W Bush story. The former president calls him calls Mr. Sports Illustrated.
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Thanks for the recap.
Was it more of a presentation or a q&a session?
Was the guy who asked the buzz/LW question ignored on purpose, or was it appropriate for lw to not answer his question.
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Thanks for the recap.
Was it more of a presentation or a q&a session?
Was the guy who asked the buzz/LW question ignored on purpose, or was it appropriate for lw to not answer his question.
It was supposed to be a interview with Larry Williams hosted by Steve Rushin. That kind of went out the window with Larry's plane delay. Steve spent 15-20 minutes telling stories about SI, living in Connecticut and being married to local celebrity Rebecca Lobo, meeting President's Clinton, Bush & Obama, Keith Richards, and visiting the world's most northern golf course. Larry arrived direct from Newark airport and then Steve had a truncated 2 or 3 interview questions followed by a rushed Q&A.
On the Buzz question, it felt like a combo of both. A bunch of people had their hands up for questions and the alum kind of just blurted out the question and Larry politely said time was short and he wanted to give someone else a chance to ask a question as the alum did ask a question earlier. People hunched over the table anticipating an answer.
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Interesting Ol' Lar doesn't fly charter.
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On the Buzz question: My mother always said if you have nothing good to say, say nothing.
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I would have been shocked if he addressed that topic in any way other than politically correct fashion. That really was not the time or place or discuss relationships.
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It doesn't matter what he said.
People who already don't like him would criticize him, people who are in-between would shrug it off, and people who LOVE LARRY (don't know if we have that group) would say he's brilliant.
We're all very good at parsing up quotes to fit whatever narrative we like.
Honestly, the guy can't win. Maybe that's his own fault, maybe it's not. But, either way, he can't win (right now).
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In Chicago on Tuesday for the Circles Event. Are some of you Ryder Cup hecklers showing up? ;D
http://www.marquette.edu/alumni/networking-circles.php
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SLU got more votes than Marquette in the preseason AP poll. Perhaps LW is onto something in turning MU into the Billikens.
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In Chicago on Tuesday for the Circles Event. Are some of you Ryder Cup hecklers showing up? ;D
http://www.marquette.edu/alumni/networking-circles.php
Thanks, Doc. Just signed up. No assurance that I will get LWs roundtable, but I did give it first preference...
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On the train ride back to Connecticut after the MU Circles event. Notes from the Larry Williams roundtable.
* Larry got there late because his plane was delayed 8 hrs. Came straight from the airport.
* Expressed his vision for all of Marquette's athletic teams to be elite and successful. Example of the Top 10 men's and women's soccer teams and the volleyball team.
* Besides obviously basketball, heavily emphasized the importance of the other teams need to be elite in order to remain relavent in the current conference shuffle.
* The Fieldhouse - as part of the elite vision above Marquette is in the early planning stages of a year round fieldhouse. Not a bubble over Valley Fields. Because of the Milwaukee weather we need it to attract the elite student athletes.
* Marquette has a Plan B if the Big East implodes. Had imformal discussions with other schools.
* Reiterated the importance of the new Big East tv deal and what sounds like good negoitiating news is that CBS is also apparently interested besides NBC and Fox and well yes ESPN.
* An alum tried to get a question in on his relationship with Buzz. Time was running out and the guy already asked a question so they sort of skipped over him to allow someone else to ask a question.
* Steve Rushin was a goosd host. Had a good W Bush story. The former president calls him calls Mr. Sports Illustrated.
Thanks for the recap. Glad Larry is bringing a positive message to the alumni. So far, he has been Mr. Lawyer and has only talked about the perceived issues, whether hoops, lacrosse, conference or travel, etc. He has a very strong skill set, but his public persona needs a boost, and it starts with him. The Milwaukee MU Mafia is a tough one to break into...and his public missteps have been less than enamoring.
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Buzz and Larry get along just fine. Larry may not be a pushover like Cottingham was, but both Larry and Buzz want Marquette to win Championships.
If Buzz really wanted out he could have most any job in the nation, even at this point in the year, by just asking for it.
There's a reason that Buzz and his family just built a house up here. These threads are all dumb and you guys should all feel bad about yourselves for constantly circlejerking about crap like this.
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On the train ride back to Connecticut after the MU Circles event. Notes from the Larry Williams roundtable.
* Larry got there late because his plane was delayed 8 hrs. Came straight from the airport.
* Expressed his vision for all of Marquette's athletic teams to be elite and successful. Example of the Top 10 men's and women's soccer teams and the volleyball team.
* Besides obviously basketball, heavily emphasized the importance of the other teams need to be elite in order to remain relavent in the current conference shuffle.
* The Fieldhouse - as part of the elite vision above Marquette is in the early planning stages of a year round fieldhouse. Not a bubble over Valley Fields. Because of the Milwaukee weather we need it to attract the elite student athletes.
* Marquette has a Plan B if the Big East implodes. Had imformal discussions with other schools.
* Reiterated the importance of the new Big East tv deal and what sounds like good negoitiating news is that CBS is also apparently interested besides NBC and Fox and well yes ESPN.
* An alum tried to get a question in on his relationship with Buzz. Time was running out and the guy already asked a question so they sort of skipped over him to allow someone else to ask a question.
* Steve Rushin was a goosd host. Had a good W Bush story. The former president calls him calls Mr. Sports Illustrated.
Did he give any insight to what sports would use this "Fieldhouse" and where it may be located (Valley Fields)? I'm assuming an indoor track would be part of the complex and training area's for the other sports so the Old Gym and possibly Helfaer would be vacated and McGuire Center would be strictly mens and womens basketball plus volleyball.
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I would have been shocked if he addressed that topic in any way other than politically correct fashion. That really was not the time or place or discuss relationships.
Larry doesn't know PC.
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Did he give any insight to what sports would use this "Fieldhouse" and where it may be located (Valley Fields)? I'm assuming an indoor track would be part of the complex and training area's for the other sports so the Old Gym and possibly Helfaer would be vacated and McGuire Center would be strictly mens and womens basketball plus volleyball.
He said there's a broken window in the old gym every day from an errant soccer or lacrosse ball. Lacrosse seasons starts in Feb. which is obviously difficult in Milwaukee. He said preferably closer to campus than Valley Fields but that's undecided. Said the school architect said you find me a place and he'll design it to fit. Mentioned UW-Whitewaters fieldhouse. Sounds like for soccer, lacrosse and track.
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Here's UW-Whitewaters....
http://www.uww.edu/recsports/wcfloorplan.html
So an indoor track that can also be used as an indoor practice facility. Makes sense.