So i was talking to my fellow MU friends last night, and got onto the discussion of basketball. They were very adamant that MU would not get to the S16 again this year and probably not until 2015 because "lack of leadership."
I was just curious where does everyone here have us going this year as far as realistic expectations? Personally I think another Sweet 16 isn't far fetched, now that we have Lockett, and anything short would be a disappointment to me.
Quote from: JDuquaine on June 22, 2012, 10:48:52 AM
So i was talking to my fellow MU friends last night, and got onto the discussion of basketball. They were very adamant that MU would not get to the S16 again this year and probably not until 2015 because "lack of leadership."
Get new friends.
Quote from: Guns n Ammo on June 22, 2012, 10:49:59 AM
Get new friends.
*Roommates, I shouldn't have used the term friends so loosely.
We lacked leadership last year after Butler left. And of course there was a leadership void the year before when Lazar left. Oh my god, I don't even want to discuss the leadership black hole we faced when the Three Amigos left.
"Leadership" isn't going to be a problem IMO. There were concerns expressed on this board just last year about Jae and DJO. We have a very well grounded transfer in Lockett, a senior point in Cadougan, and a players like Jamil and Otule who seem quiet but hard workers.
And then the year after we have Jamil and Otule as seniors (assuming he gets his sixth year). And Vander as well. And I think Buzz does a great job of instilling leadership responsibilities in his players. I can honestly say that since he has gotten here, we have not had a team that has lacked "leadership" so I doubt that will occur now.
I see no reason why this team wouldn't be able to replicate what occurred last year. Players will have to step up their games on the court. Can Lockett provide the offense that we lose with DJO? Will Mayo be around? Can Jamil fill the void cause by Jae's departure? These are the things that will prevent us from reaching the S16.
I don't think this team is as talented or will be as well-led as last year's team, but we'll see how Lockett does in that role. I would say RD32 or S16 exit but who knows at this point.
Quote from: sarcastro on June 22, 2012, 10:51:37 AM
We lacked leadership last year after Butler left. And of course there was a leadership void the year before when Lazar left. Oh my god, I don't even want to discuss the leadership black hole we faced when the Three Amigos left.
I don't know about last year, that was Jae's team from the get go.
But the "lacking leadership" thing is blown so far out of proportion, I agree. I'm more concerned about who will make shots than anything else.
sweet 16 would be nice, not a huge stretch, I would be happy with that, really happy and surprised with something better, and satisfied with a trip to the second round
Quote from: JDuquaine on June 22, 2012, 10:51:04 AM
*Roommates, I shouldn't have used the term friends so loosely.
You should move.
This coming season is a bit of an unknown given what MU is losing, but 2013 is going to be stacked. If your roommates don't see a S16 until 2015, you should put down a large wager. I would.
I think this season's roster will be the deepest Buzz has had, but they will have to learn to play together.
I think Mayo is the key. A happy, ready-to-go Mayo is essential to a S16 run IMO. I'm a little paranoid not seeing him at the MU camp at all this week. My son confirmed he hasn't been there. Most everyone else is -- Vander, Jamil, Junior, DWil, Juan, Davante, Otule. Butler even stopped by yesterday. I don't twitter, so maybe he's home, who knows. Hopefully next week.
Quote from: Freeport Warrior on June 22, 2012, 11:09:21 AM
I think Mayo is the key. A happy, ready-to-go Mayo is essential to a S16 run IMO. I'm a little paranoid not seeing him at the MU camp at all this week. My son confirmed he hasn't been there. Most everyone else is -- Vander, Jamil, Junior, DWil, Juan, Davante, Otule. Butler even stopped by yesterday. I don't twitter, so maybe he's home, who knows. Hopefully next week.
He's here... the first summer session is winding down and it's crunchtime for him in the classroom.
Quote from: MUfan12 on June 22, 2012, 10:55:15 AM
But the "lacking leadership" thing is blown so far out of proportion, I agree. I'm more concerned about who will make shots than anything else.
+1.
My two main concerns, shot-making and interior defense.
Jae was just so active on the defensive end last year... Rebounding, steals, taking charges, etc. I know Otule comes back, but I feel that his impact has been overrated. Jamil will need to make a much bigger impact on the boards.
If Blue plays up to his potential S16 is realistic goal IMO. He needs to be vastly improved on o side of the ball to make things easier for everyone. If everyone is back and healthy we have the talent to be quite good.
I have no idea if this is the truth, but I am wondering if he is taking summer classes elsewhere. The only reason I say this is because he has been absent from camps, work out videos, and Scoopers have said they haven't seen him on campus. Yet he did play in an open gym last Friday versus the Alumni.
If Lockett performs even as well as he did last year, we're in great shape. 13 pts/gm would be huge, and that's not even adjusting for tempo. Around him, there are a lot of question marks in the backcourt. Mayo is streaky but can score - likely off the bench. All I really expect from Cadougan and Blue is efficiency and defense - I just don't see a huge leap from either.
I love our frontcourt if everyone gets and stays healthy. I expect a huge leap from Jamil, and any improvements Davante makes is icing. A healthy Otule would be more of a stabilizing force than anything else.
The two variables are the contributions of the two Taylors. I don't expect huge numbers from either given their fresh arrival to the Big East, but if either or both surprise us with extended quality minutes, we're in excellent shape.
If Lockett comes to play and our frontcourt stays healthy, we could easily be a S16 team again. This is not a F4 team or an E8 team, but despite having a lot of question marks, we should definitely be in the postseason conversation.
I would not be surprised by getting to the 2nd weekend again this year. We've definitely reloaded, even just with guys coming back from injury. Plenty of leaders on this team, we'll just have to see who decides to step up :)
I think we've got plenty of leadership on this years' team. Cadougan, Blue, Otule, and Lockett are all guys I'd expect to lead, and Mayo and Gardner are experienced scorers that can also step up to leadership roles.
As for S16, the NCAA tournament is all match-up based, and how well the team is playing in March, which under Buzz, we've usually been firing on all cylinders. I think it is a very reasonable goal, given that we've got a lot of depth.
Having said that, NO INJURIES, PLEASE.
/knocks on desk drawer until knuckles are bloody
I don't think leadership will be a problem.
As always, it will depend on how the talent on hand meshes together. A lot depends on the newcomers, because DJO and Crowder are big shoes to fill. I have no idea how good Lockett will be, as he played for a terrible team in a poor conference. I look at him like we're getting a 13 PPG guy from a mid major like the MAAC. He may be really good, but I don't even know if he's good enough to play over the guys we have already. As for the freshman, they always seem to play a lot less under Buzz than people on this board think, so I don't count on a lot from them, though they certainly may surprise.
On the plus side, the next time Buzz doesn't make more out of his roster than I think he will will be the first. So I think Sweet 16 is a stretch, but possible.
"Leadership" is such a blanket statement in sports. It is a non quantifiable vague label used to criticize. "Leadership" and winning are not directly correlated.
I'll go on record saying we will make the sweet 16 this year and finish top 2 for BEast regular season title. The team will be loaded, with a lot of depth. This assumes limited injuries(thats a big if with an MU team) AND that Mayo is back. If Mayo is back I'm betting he makes the leap this season at least equal to junior year DJO. I love Vander and his game but Mayo will jump him as the primary 2, with Vander playing back-up at 1 and 2 and some time at 3.
Book it Dano!
Quote from: MUfan12 on June 22, 2012, 11:13:07 AM
He's here... the first summer session is winding down and it's crunchtime for him in the classroom.
I hope the young gal wo was featured on CNN on how well MU tutors their athletes is on Mayo's case. Got to do well in the classroom.
Did Buzz end up leaving and I missed it? He's been a pretty good leader. From a talent standpoint, I think we're about even with last year. Lockett helps offset our losses, we're much better at center with a healthy Otule and DG gaining invaluable experience last year, and the natural progression of other key guys (Van, JW, Junior, Mayo) has us primed for another great year. I think this team is being vastly underrated by MU fans and CBB analysts (do I need to clarify that I mean college basketball and not ChicosBailBonds?). I think we're a top 15-20 team, possibly better if Jamil and Van reach their potential.
I think there are a lot of people who are discounting how good Lockett really can be. I think he will do a lot more for us than many realize. Beyond that, the talk of Mayo jumping Blue in the lineup is absurd.
Mostly, I agree with what Brew says.
Quote from: Hards_Alumni on June 22, 2012, 01:37:49 PM
I think there are a lot of people who are discounting how good Lockett really can be. I think he will do a lot more for us than many realize.
I get the feeling we're going to get a "I am *NOT* letting my senior season go to waste" season from Lockett.
Excellent points on Lockett. I really think his choice of Marquette had a lot to do with getting a better stage to try to springboard a NBA career. I think he could go from "who's that?" in November to first or second team Big East by the end of February.
This is Junior's team. Not buying the lack of leadership angle.
Now if leadership is mistakenly taken as purely scoring, I think we all know that this team will have 4-5 guys (lockett, DG/CT, JW, Mayo) that can go for 15-20 on any given night depending on the type of defense put on us.
I expect Junior so be more vocal than he's ever been.
Quote from: RideMyBuycks on June 22, 2012, 02:32:18 PM
This is Junior's team. Not buying the lack of leadership angle.
Now if leadership is mistakenly taken as purely scoring, I think we all know that this team will have 4-5 guys (lockett, DG/CT, JW, Mayo) that can go for 15-20 on any given night depending on the type of defense put on us.
I expect Junior so be more vocal than he's ever been.
Yes. Junior will be the leader, with Blue and Wilson in supporting roles. Lockett's impact will be key to how far we get. I always assume there will be at least one significant injury at some point. Just hope that its early in the year and not season ending.
Quote from: Blue Horseshoe on June 22, 2012, 12:12:52 PM
"Leadership" is such a blanket statement in sports. It is a non quantifiable vague label used to criticize. "Leadership" and winning are not directly correlated.
To anyone who wishes to espouse the importance of "leadership," where, pray tell, was the "leadership" on UK's team this year?
Leadership begins and ends with the coach. If your coach is a good leader, you don't need one on the floor. In UK's case, you don't need a leader at all... just a crapload of talent.
I see us getting to the S16 and possibly beyond again this year. I had lesser expectations of last year as I didn't expect Jae and DJO to have the stellar years that they did.
I don't know much about Lockett, but from what I've been hearing about him combined with the fact that he has experience, I know it can only help our team, and possibly help out immensely.
Vander and Todd have had an offseason to polish their skills and develop new tricks. They are going to be much stronger offensive threats this year, I believe.
I really like where Davante's game has been going and he seems to be in the best shape of his life.
And most of all, we are still going to run and beat everyone in the fast break, dive for loose balls, deflect passes, and do all the other little things that drive all our opponents crazy.
Quote from: Benny B on June 22, 2012, 02:51:44 PM
To anyone who wishes to espouse the importance of "leadership," where, pray tell, was the "leadership" on UK's team this year?
Leadership begins and ends with the coach. If your coach is a good leader, you don't need one on the floor. In UK's case, you don't need a leader at all... just a crapload of talent.
Yes, because it is easier to just throw 5 NBA-ready players on a court instead of having leaders. Leadership is still important, though, since most teams don't have the luxury of getting studs like that.
Quote from: martyconlonontherun on June 22, 2012, 04:01:46 PM
Yes, because it is easier to just throw 5 NBA-ready players on a court instead of having leaders. Leadership is still important, though, since most teams don't have the luxury of getting studs like that.
So what is leadership exactly???
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on June 22, 2012, 04:13:55 PM
So what is leadership exactly???
From what I have gathered from this thread is that it has nothing to do with talent and everything to do with age.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on June 22, 2012, 04:13:55 PM
So what is leadership exactly???
Something only dudes that have graduated possess.
Lockett averaged 13 points two years in a row being the only consistent offense threat at ASU which meant he had to deal with a lot of defensive attention. He will be aided greatly by the quality of his teammates, the increase in tempo, and the fact that the other team won't be able to focus mostly on him.
I look for Lockett to have a very good year.
Now as far as expectations go, the sweet sixteen is a rare accomplishment. Getting there two years in a row for the first time since Al was head coach testifies to that. Going three years in a row will be really special, whether we are too spoiled to recognize that or not. Making the NCAA should be a given, winning that first game should be, as well. Getting that next game is not a given and would be doable , but still awesome.
I see us as a solid NCAA #5-#7 seed this year after posting 10 or 11 BEast wins. I don't see us on the bubble and think we have an outside shot at a S16 run. The one thing I don't currently see is an NBA (or near NBA) talent able to take over the game against a top 10 opponent. I'll be watching Vander, Jamil and Lockett and Mayo for that potential. I'm convinced JC will do an outstanding job as the 'team captain' basing that judgment on his private comments in Louisville.
I find it funny that mu has exceeded expectations the last few year because seniors really stepped up and took over this team, yet fans of the program doesn't think leadership exists.
I question the Junior leadership contentions. It seems he's made some questionable decisions in the past that have not been in the best interest of the team. I envision someone else stepping into that role. (But Junior will have a good year.)
Quote from: martyconlonontherun on June 23, 2012, 01:23:51 PM
I find it funny that mu has exceeded expectations the last few year because seniors really stepped up and took over this team, yet fans of the program doesn't think leadership exists.
There absolutely has been a trickle down effect from Wesley to Lazar to Jimmy to Jae in terms of knowing what a leader is 24 hours a day, not just for 40 minutes in the Bradley Center. I believe Jamil Wilson is next in line.
Talking to Aki Collins, he said there will be growing pains with this year's team as to who will step up as the leader. It was the same thing when Lazar (and Mo and Cubillan) left. Jimmy wasn't a vocal leader at all, but as his game began to speak for itself he grew into that role.
With Cadougan, I don't see an epiphany coming in the next three months that turns him into a vocal leader, but there's something about a senior who has been around the program for four years that leads me to believe guys will get behind him. It can even be something as small as Steve Taylor (example) struggling with Buzz hounding on him in practice, and he goes to Cadougan to get advice on how to get past it.
That's leadership, the same as Jae Crowder rallying the troops in the final minutes of the Murray State game is.
Quote from: strotty on June 23, 2012, 04:24:25 PM
With Cadougan, I don't see an epiphany coming in the next three months that turns him into a vocal leader, but there's something about a senior who has been around the program for four years that leads me to believe guys will get behind him.
Isn't Junior the best Karaoke singer, (vocal leader) on the team?
Quote from: muwarrior69 on June 23, 2012, 05:21:17 PM
Isn't Junior the best Karaoke singer, (vocal leader) on the team?
I hear he can get a little pitchy at times...
Quote from: jsglow on June 23, 2012, 11:47:02 AM
I see us as a solid NCAA #5-#7 seed this year after posting 10 or 11 BEast wins. I don't see us on the bubble and think we have an outside shot at a S16 run. The one thing I don't currently see is an NBA (or near NBA) talent able to take over the game against a top 10 opponent. I'll be watching Vander, Jamil and Lockett and Mayo for that potential. I'm convinced JC will do an outstanding job as the 'team captain' basing that judgment on his private comments in Louisville.
I think this assessment is about right. The only thing I worry about it the unusually hard non-conference schedule, we could have a few more losses than normal in the non-conference.
Quote from: JDuquaine on June 22, 2012, 10:51:04 AM
*Roommates, I shouldn't have used the term friends so loosely.
do they have to sit to pee?
Can we make the sweet 16? The answer is yes, but the biggest factor determining that is matchups. What if last year Florida and Murray St were seeded 6th and 7th instead of 7th and 6th? We would have played Florida the second game, which does not mean we would of lost, but matchups matter. Also, the refs assigned to the game matter.
I find it interesting the different expectations people have between the 2012-13 and 2013-14 teams. The general sense I get is that we will be anywhere from a 5-seed to a bubble team next year (though less bubble talk since Lockett joined up), but will be a Final Four and possible NC contender in 2013-14. How different will those teams be?
- Same CO/DG center duo
- Same expected switchable core of Blue, Jamil, Mayo
- Largely same bench, with Steve Taylor, Derrick Wilson, Juan Anderson, Jamal Ferguson
- Different PGs, Senior Junior Cadougan followed by Freshman DW
- Two top-50 freshmen, but still freshmen, and Jameel added
.
Most of these thoughts were formed before McKay joined the fold. Most of the time, freshmen don't have a huge impact, and I'd guess not too much would be expected of Burton and Wilson considering the talent ahead of them and that they aren't likely one-and-dones. Sure, our guys will be a year older, but I think the 5 players that will really be the core of both teams have shown what we can expect from them, and will likely have less of a jump from junior to senior years than they did from freshman to sophomore or will have from sophomore to junior.
Slightly higher expectations, considering more experience, makes sense. But we will also be losing a starting senior PG. I see us in the 3-4 seed range again next year (outside of that, 5 more likely than 2) and 2-3 the year after (outside of that 1 more likely than 4). But both will be very, very good teams.
I'm about to go out on a limb here, but:
1) Trent Lockett will be a stable, leader that we need to replace Jae. In fact, with three years of D1 experience and a stong forward, I would expect we won't miss a beat here.
2) DJO will not be easy to replace, but I have a great deal of confidence that the experienced trio of Todd, Junior and Vander will step up. Vander, particularly, has more upside potential than anyone on the team. If he works on his shot and matures the way he did as the season went on last year, I'm excited for his potential.
3) The key to 2012-2013 is Chris Otule and Davante Gardner. I thought we had a potential for an Elite 8 or Final Four team in 2011-2012 if Chris had stayed healthy. I still believe that for 2012-2013 if Chris stays strong and can play a full season. We need a center who can dominate on defense -- something we sorely lacked after Chris went down. Nothing against Davante, but Chris is much better defensively and I kept muttering to myself when open backdoor shots happened..."....if only Chris hadn't gone down."
4) We have as much depth as I ever remember and should go nine deep in the coming year.
There you have it. I think we're starting the season unrecognized and in a rebuilding project. By the end of the season, if Chris stays healthy and Vander continues to develop (which I think he will), we will be Top 10 and maybe Top 5 to 7. Both of the two conditionals are big orders, but I am very optimistic and think this year may be one of our finer moments as a basketball playing school.
My expectations are that we will be better at three positions. Center with a healthy Otule and Gardner. Point guard with Cadougan and Wilson returning and small forward with Lockett starting. That leaves power forward with Wilson and Taylor and shooting guard with Mayo and Blue or Blue and Taylor as positions we could be not as good in. As good as Crowder was, I think we see a smaller drop off at power forward than we see at the 2g spot. Assuming Mayo is here we will have scoring from the two guard spot. Without Mayo we will not see much scoring from our guards.