I thought it was 25 years ago this week but was corrected. Twenty six years ago this week Rick Majerus left MU after a 56-35 record and three straight NIT appearances to become an assistant coach for the Milwaukee Bucks.
Ric Cobb was a candidate to replace Majerus along with several other coaches. MU ultimately hired Bob Dukiet.
A trip down memory lane from Dale Hoffmann with two articles
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=4qpRAAAAIBAJ&sjid=sBIEAAAAIBAJ&pg=4549,3930933&dq=rick+majerus&hl=en
Dukiet, it rhymes with Marquette!
Suckett
I had forgotten Ric Cobb was an assistant and up for the position. He certainly would have been better than what we ended up with and I think he certainly would have maintained the McGuire tradition.
The interesting reality was that based on the articles and conversation, one could see we had problems. Apparently, the decision on Majerus was something no one really wanted to deal with. It appears as though both Rick and the Jesuits stalled on this one as long as they could, leaving the university in the lurch. If a guy is not cutting it, you know right away and you don't wait until June 30th to solve the problem.
I read these and realized we're in much better shape and more focused today than we ever were then. All I can say is, "Thank God!!"
Yes, basketball is a much larger business these days.
i think he resigned before they gave him his walking papers. there was a lot of b.s. going on behind the scenes. i worked for a guy with pretty close connections to the team and he was pissed b/c it was more like rick was leaving on their terms. if he could have stayed, or they wanted him enough, he would have stayed. i could have this wrong and would entertain other viewpoints, but it felt like rick was fired. i think rick got the last word in as he took utah to the final 4 and sandwiched some pretty good seasons around that which mu would have loved to have had here
Rick merely progressed on the coach's learning curve while at MU and afterwards are Ball St. and Utah. Clearly is wasn't a good fit here at the time. His pal, Don Nelson, gave him an "out" as the Bucks' 2nd assistant. It appeared to be a promotion, but in reality, was not. Other than the timing of Rick's bolting, it was the best for both.
Hank, then boned up the entire hiring process which entailed the Mike Newell fiasco along with the hiring of a van driving, saloon keyboard player, aka the original Hurricane Katrina.
The vibe around campus when we returned that fall was that Majerus was pushed out by the sweater vests.
Agreed completely 4ever. Timing sucked and Hank's mishandling made it worse situation. Nellie gave Rick an out and ultimately it was great career choice for Rick.
Quote from: dgies9156 on June 10, 2012, 10:22:52 PM
I had forgotten Ric Cobb was an assistant and up for the position. He certainly would have been better than what we ended up with and I think he certainly would have maintained the McGuire tradition.
Ric Cobb would have been terrible. Not just because he was a bad coach, which he was, but because they needed to make a clean break from the McGuire years.
In retrospect, hiring Dukiet was the best thing to happen to Marquette basketball. It didn't seem like it at the time, but it at least woke the old boys up to the fact that it wasn't the 1970s any longer. If they would have hired a fairly decent coach, there is no Kevin O'Neill. And with no O'Neill, we might be watching conference games against Butler.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on June 11, 2012, 07:45:01 AM
Ric Cobb would have been terrible. Not just because he was a bad coach, which he was, but because they needed to make a clean break from the McGuire years.
In retrospect, hiring Dukiet was the best thing to happen to Marquette basketball. It didn't seem like it at the time, but it at least woke the old boys up to the fact that it wasn't the 1970s any longer. If they would have hired a fairly decent coach, there is no Kevin O'Neill. And with no O'Neill, we might be watching conference games against Butler.
Sultan, you been rolling in those cow chips out in South Wayne too long? You have to be kidding me?
Dukiet was indicative of a problem Marquette was having at the time. From 1977 until Dukiet trashed the program, Marquette was a destination stop. Sure we bungled the Hank thing (should have retired with Al) and Majerus wasn't ready, but we should have been able to recruit and retain a elite or soon-to-be elite basketball coach. We finally did that when KO came, but that should have been done 10 years earlier -- or more.
I don't know much about how the Jesuits and their charges managed the basketball program in the 1980s, but results speak for themselves. Something was terribly wrong and Dukiet was symptomatic of a malaise or an open hostility to basketball and Al's legacy.
You're probably right, by the way, on Ric Cobb. I liked the guy, a lot, but he hasn't done much since.
After Newell said no, Hank offered to be the one year interim coach. The Athletic Board, responsible for the hiring, chose Dukiet after he got a strong endorsement from basketball people, particularly Billy Packer who some believed was a guy who knew what he was talking about. Blaming Hank for the fiasco is 100% misguided. It was the Athletic Board which blew that one.
Quote from: dgies9156 on June 11, 2012, 08:01:01 AM
Sultan, you been rolling in those cow chips out in South Wayne too long? You have to be kidding me?
Dukiet was indicative of a problem Marquette was having at the time. From 1977 until Dukiet trashed the program, Marquette was a destination stop. Sure we bungled the Hank thing (should have retired with Al) and Majerus wasn't ready, but we should have been able to recruit and retain a elite or soon-to-be elite basketball coach. We finally did that when KO came, but that should have been done 10 years earlier -- or more.
I don't know much about how the Jesuits and their charges managed the basketball program in the 1980s, but results speak for themselves. Something was terribly wrong and Dukiet was symptomatic of a malaise or an open hostility to basketball and Al's legacy.
You're probably right, by the way, on Ric Cobb. I liked the guy, a lot, but he hasn't done much since.
My point is that the worst thing that could have happened to MU at the time was to hire some sort of fairly decent coach that would have kept the post season streak alive, but not really be all that competitive, and not forced MU to finally wake up.
You are correct that the hiring of someone like KO should have occurred 10 years earlier...however if Dukiet would have been decent, it very likely wouldn't have happened for another 10 years. And then frankly it just may have been too late for MU basketball.
I was a student during the fiasco and had no connections to the administration, but knew a few of the players pretty well. Rick had lost the team and was in a complete tailspin. He needed to go. Definitely a great basketball mind (as evidenced by his successes), but MU in the early 80s was not the right fit for Rick. I really believe that the Bucks job gave him a chance to catch his breath and re-focus on basketball away from the pressure cooker on Wisconsin Ave. I will always root for the guy and still believe that he has at least one more deep NCAA run left.
Marquette was forced to hire Rick when the BADgers theatened to hire him as their HC. In hindsight, would have been better to tell Rick to go learn the HC trade at a smaller school (Ball State) and come back when he was ready.
Having survived a few Dukiet years, but arriving after Rick had left, I've read that Rick just wasn't ready. I can't imagine that he'd lock the team out of the Old Gym after canceling practice - and not telling the players on a sub zero February morning like Dukiet did.
Dukiet was a weird dude. Rick was also a little "unique". KO, the rat, too tan tommy, and Buzz all have some idiosyncrasies as well. A thread chronicling the oddities of MU head coaches could easily last the balance of the summer.
Quote from: Gato78 on June 11, 2012, 08:03:13 AM
After Newell said no, Hank offered to be the one year interim coach. The Athletic Board, responsible for the hiring, chose Dukiet after he got a strong endorsement from basketball people, particularly Billy Packer who some believed was a guy who knew what he was talking about. Blaming Hank for the fiasco is 100% misguided. It was the Athletic Board which blew that one.
Marquette's Jesuits in their infinite wisdom tried to catch lightening in bottle twice.
The first was when Frank McGuire recommended Al, who was coaching at little ole Belmont Abbey in North Carolina. Al had no real Division 1 Coaching Experience but came highly recommended.
If it worked once, why not again with Bob Dukiet? I suppose that was the conventional wisdom at O'Hara Hall at the time. About the only explanation for it.
In time, Marquette woke up and began doing national searches. If they'd done so in 1977 or in 1983, they never would have lost a beat. Heck, I suppose that in 1977, we probably could have had Coach K because, heck, we could have had anyone!
But as I have hinted before, it is my educated guess (I do have a Marquette degree after all) that there was a serious animosity underway between the educational side of Marquette, which was comparatively unnoticed by the world at large, and the athletic program, which was noticed by everyone!
Going cheap, which they did with Dukiet, is a means of putting balm on the wounds of professorial egos. Instead, they almost embalmed the basketball program.
Wow. In short order Marquette dropped from the #2 basketball program in the country (much higher than our current spot) to a place several rungs BELOW the SLUs of the world? No freakin way. Absolutely impossible! And I'm sure if there had been an internet in the 80s, Hoop would have told us so.
Quote from: PJDunn on June 11, 2012, 12:05:23 PM
Dukiet was a weird dude. Rick was also a little "unique". KO, the rat, too tan tommy, and Buzz all have some idiosyncrasies as well. A thread chronicling the oddities of MU head coaches could easily last the balance of the summer.
You skipped Mike Deane. Was that on purpose?
Quote from: Lennys Tap on June 11, 2012, 03:17:18 PM
And I'm sure if there had been an internet in the 80s, Hoop would have told us so.
Invented in 1969 on the Golden Coast , the year of MU's NIT Championship and the start of an incredible basketball run. Pretty sure there was a backyard summit with Al Gore and the boys for the initial message sent: "Login: Al needs 5 years"
Gato
I will give you at least Hank did not jump on the interim job. Thankfully people in the know talked him out of that. Hank was overmatched as coach and AD and we needed stronger leader at the time. That said, always will respect Hank and appreciate hi role in our history.
MU ra ra
It was more that anyone other than Hank should have th job which led to Rick's hiring. Hank was sliding quickly and replacing him with Rick was easier sell to him.
Goose:
I think Hank as a one year interim was far, far better than even a two week Bob Dukiet reign--much less the 3 year reign of terror. Dukiet had entre to many top shelf recruits--and turned every one of them off. David Booth was one who was highly rated who said Dukiet absolutely turned him off. There were other really good players who said the same things (there was a really good big man who said same-Terry Mills maybe?) Rick was considered THE hot assistant coach in the country. Had to make him head coach in waiting and nudge Hank to retire which was the right move at the time. Rick just couldn't handle the pressure. Fans turned on him when he downgraded the schedule for wins and then had trouble winning. Truth is it was a gradual slide from Al to Hank to Rick. But Dukiet was a complete disaster--and to think Dukiet thought MU gave him a raw deal. Sheesh!
As a basketball coach, Dukiet was a hell of a van driver for Gannon.
Does anyone remember that Bobby Knight accepted the job at Wisconsin- on the condition that no one say anything so he could go back to West Point and tell his players. Well some farmer on the Board of Regents went into a bar and started shooting his mouth off. The press heard the story and broke it, Knight withdrew his acceptance, and John Powless was hired.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on June 11, 2012, 03:17:18 PM
Wow. In short order Marquette dropped from the #2 basketball program in the country (much higher than our current spot) to a place several rungs BELOW the SLUs of the world? No freakin way. Absolutely impossible! And I'm sure if there had been an internet in the 80s, Hoop would have told us so.
1) MU's commitment at the time had dropped, really dropped not just pretend dropped by a bunch of tinfoil hats on message board from 50 and 60 somethings that don't know what they are talking about. No weight room, salaries were low, conferences were forming and they wanted to stay independent, the commitment wasn't there.
Despite the panic comments from you and others that we would not be able to recruit JUCO students, the budgets would be slashed, Buzz wasn't going to be happy, etc, none of that appears to be the case in reality. We just signed a top JUCO player, forked over big dollars for an assistant coach, scheduling stronger than ever. Pretend lack of commitment vs real lack of commitment.
2) If MU continues to have the #2 budget overall, remains in the Big East, allows the recruiting of kids that may not get in everywhere else, but has three straight hires like what MU did after Al, then you can expect MU to drop as well. MU never should have hired Hank in that position, same for Rick, same for Dukiet.
That is why MU dropped, bad hires and lack of commitment.
How that is remotely close to what is currently happening with MU only you and a few others here will have to explain to us.
Quote from: Hoopaloop on June 11, 2012, 10:11:52 PM
1) MU's commitment at the time had dropped, really dropped not just pretend dropped by a bunch of tinfoil hats on message board from 50 and 60 somethings that don't know what they are talking about. No weight room, salaries were low, conferences were forming and they wanted to stay independent, the commitment wasn't there.
Despite the panic comments from you and others that we would not be able to recruit JUCO students, the budgets would be slashed, Buzz wasn't going to be happy, etc, none of that appears to be the case in reality. We just signed a top JUCO player, forked over big dollars for an assistant coach, scheduling stronger than ever. Pretend lack of commitment vs real lack of commitment.
2) If MU continues to have the #2 budget overall, remains in the Big East, allows the recruiting of kids that may not get in everywhere else, but has three straight hires like what MU did after Al, then you can expect MU to drop as well. MU never should have hired Hank in that position, same for Rick, same for Dukiet.
That is why MU dropped, bad hires and lack of commitment.
How that is remotely close to what is currently happening with MU only you and a few others here will have to explain to us.
Thanks Hoopalong. Any of us who were fans of the Warriors in the 1980s knew that was the dark period in Marquette athletics. By the end of the decade, even I stopped going because I felt in watching them that nobody cared.
I have spoken of basketball as the Golden Goose many times. The Jesuits saw that it was laying golden eggs that converted into classrooms, professors, scholarships. When Dukiet was fired, I suspect that someone at O'Hara Hall had about all he could take. Without basketball, we were slowly becoming irrelevant and while a wonderful theology department is a bonus, it sure does not pay the bills the way basketball does.
Quote from: Mutaman on June 11, 2012, 09:48:30 PM
Does anyone remember that Bobby Knight accepted the job at Wisconsin- on the condition that no one say anything so he could go back to West Point and tell his players. Well some farmer on the Board of Regents went into a bar and started shooting his mouth off. The press heard the story and broke it, Knight withdrew his acceptance, and John Powless was hired.
Wisconsin also passed on Bo Schembechler as its football coach, and instead hired John Coatta, who prompty went 3-26-1.
Quote from: Hoopaloop on June 11, 2012, 10:11:52 PM
1) MU's commitment at the time had dropped, really dropped not just pretend dropped by a bunch of tinfoil hats on message board from 50 and 60 somethings that don't know what they are talking about. No weight room, salaries were low, conferences were forming and they wanted to stay independent, the commitment wasn't there.
Despite the panic comments from you and others that we would not be able to recruit JUCO students, the budgets would be slashed, Buzz wasn't going to be happy, etc, none of that appears to be the case in reality. We just signed a top JUCO player, forked over big dollars for an assistant coach, scheduling stronger than ever. Pretend lack of commitment vs real lack of commitment.
2) If MU continues to have the #2 budget overall, remains in the Big East, allows the recruiting of kids that may not get in everywhere else, but has three straight hires like what MU did after Al, then you can expect MU to drop as well. MU never should have hired Hank in that position, same for Rick, same for Dukiet.
That is why MU dropped, bad hires and lack of commitment.
How that is remotely close to what is currently happening with MU only you and a few others here will have to explain to us.
Your hindsight is 20/20, but back then I'm sure you would have been soundind the "all clear" since the president, AD and BOT were all "smart people".
He might have but there's no way I would have gone that route -- and I said so at the time.
Hank was a wonderful man who raised an outstanding family and was a huge asset to our university and basketball program. He wasn't a head coach. He was passed over when Al was hired in 1964.
We needed to honor Hank the way North Carolina honored Bill Guthridge. But neither Hank nor Bill were head coaching material for a national program seeking to maintain themselves at the top of the NCAA. In our case, the rise of DePaul should have been a shot across the bow and the emergence of the Big East was a shot we could not sustain without new blood. No matter what we did, we needed to spend money and maintain a high-profile coach. At that time, neither Hank nor Rick was the guy who would lead us back to McGuireland. That's not hind site. We knew it in the 1980s and we knew when the best recruit post-Rivers Hank could get was Terrell Schlundt that we were in trouble.
Unfortunately, we got new blood, when Kevin O'Neill was hired. Ten years after he should have been. Maybe when everyone wakes up, we'll erect at least a statue to the KO as the man who saved Marquette basketball from the guys at O'Hara Hall.
Without KO there would be no Tom Crean. Without Tom Crean, there's no DWade and there's no Final Four and No Buzz.
Without all of this, we'd be in the same boat as Loyola of Chicago. Great Jesuit School, great tradition, Irrevelant Basketball Program, Horizon League also-ran.
Quote from: dgies9156 on June 12, 2012, 10:45:16 PM
He might have but there's no way I would have gone that route -- and I said so at the time.
Hank was a wonderful man who raised an outstanding family and was a huge asset to our university and basketball program. He wasn't a head coach. He was passed over when Al was hired in 1964.
We needed to honor Hank the way North Carolina honored Bill Guthridge. But neither Hank nor Bill were head coaching material for a national program seeking to maintain themselves at the top of the NCAA. In our case, the rise of DePaul should have been a shot across the bow and the emergence of the Big East was a shot we could not sustain without new blood. No matter what we did, we needed to spend money and maintain a high-profile coach. At that time, neither Hank nor Rick was the guy who would lead us back to McGuireland. That's not hind site. We knew it in the 1980s and we knew when the best recruit post-Rivers Hank could get was Terrell Schlundt that we were in trouble.
Unfortunately, we got new blood, when Kevin O'Neill was hired. Ten years after he should have been. Maybe when everyone wakes up, we'll erect at least a statue to the KO as the man who saved Marquette basketball from the guys at O'Hara Hall.
Without KO there would be no Tom Crean. Without Tom Crean, there's no DWade and there's no Final Four and No Buzz.
Without all of this, we'd be in the same boat as Loyola of Chicago. Great Jesuit School, great tradition, Irrevelant Basketball Program, Horizon League also-ran.
Our vocal fan base and support for the program is what drives our success in the long run. Plus a guy like Dick Strong ensured a rise in profile. Thanks again Dick!
In the past 45 years since Al's first NIT run, MU has had four losing seasons, under eight separate coaches. 50% of those were under Billy Joel. In the past five seasons, DePaul has had five losing seasons. MU's commitment has been the difference.
eight coaches in 4 losing seasons. Was Trump running the show?
j/k four losing seasons through eight coaches is pretty good. Recently, standards changed as we became a high major and more cream puffs below us formed.
Rick was one shooter away from having three NCAA tournament teams. They lost so many close games while he was there, but they really lacked a shooter. Rick Olson had given a verbal, and then backed out because of the pressure that was put on him from UW and the local community. While Doc Rivers was there, everyone was playing a zone against Marquette. We couldn't shoot the ball! Olson could have been a difference maker. Also, Wolf could have been a huge get for the program, but even without those two, we were a couple of victories from the NCAA Tournament each season under Rick Majerus. These were all regular season losses. Rick has always been a great mind of the game, but everyone wanted the "Al success" and that wasn't going to come as easy as it once did. The Big East and other factors changed how Marquette did things.
1983 -84 (17-13)
Loss by 5 @ Clemson
Loss by 4 @ Providence
Loss by 6 vs. Wake Forest
Loss by 1 vs. Northern Illinois
Loss by 1 vs. Missouri
Loss by 4 vs. Colorado
Loss by 1 @ Marshall
Loss by 4 @ Loyola
1984-85 (20-11)
Loss by 1 vs. Kansas State
Loss by 8 @ Minnesota
Loss by 6 vs. Gonzaga
Loss by 8 vs. Texas A&M
Loss by 1 vs. Notre Dame
Loss by 6 @ Notre Dame
1985-86 (19-11)
Loss by 1 @ Wisconsin
Loss by 2 vs. Bradley
Loss by 6 @ N. Illinois
Loss by 1 @ Kansas State
Loss by 2 vs. North Carolina
Loss by 5 @ VCU
Loss by 2 @ Notre Dame
Loss by 6 vs. Xavier
Loss by 8 @ Notre Dame
Loss by 8 @ DePaul
Quote from: Stone Cold on June 12, 2012, 11:23:00 PM
eight coaches in 4 losing seasons. Was Trump running the show?
j/k four losing seasons through eight coaches is pretty good. Recently, standards changed as we became a high major and more cream puffs below us formed.
Looked up DePaul. The Blue Demons had
14 losing seasons in the past 45....over 6 different coaches. Only Leitao did NOT have a losing season. All rougly under the same schedules and conferences by comparison to MU.
Quote from: hoops12 on June 12, 2012, 11:35:00 PM
Rick was one shooter away from having three NCAA tournament teams. They lost so many close games while he was there, but they really lacked a shooter. Rick Olson had given a verbal, and then backed out because of the pressure that was put on him from UW and the local community. Rick has always been a great mind of the game, but everyone wanted the "Al success" and that wasn't going to come as easy as it once did. The Big East and other factors changed how Marquette did things.
Yes, you're right but in basketball like in life, you're judged by your wins. I like Rick and still feel bad he didn't get Marquette to the Final Four. His teams drove me crazy because we were always one step away -- that's what drove O'Hara Hall crazy and ultimately drove the fan base crazy.
That North Carolina game in 1985-1986 is a case in point. Here was a chance on a national stage for Marquette to re-establish itself. The game was at our place so Dean Smith could let Joe Wolf have a game near his home (he did that with his schedule for his players back then). We were rocking and there was a strong championship feel in the air.
Perhaps things would have been different if we won, but we couldn't close the deal and we didn't win. People went away saying this wasn't same old Marquette.
I was concerned for awhile a year ago that Buzz was headed down the same path. But then we went to the Sweet 16 and beat Xavier and Syracuse and all was well with the world! The Xavier and Syracuse games in the 2011 tournament were Buzz's North Carolina. But this time Marquette came through and followed it up in 2012 with another good tournament run.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on June 12, 2012, 10:16:44 AM
Your hindsight is 20/20, but back then I'm sure you would have been soundind the "all clear" since the president, AD and BOT were all "smart people".
You are 100% correct.
This also gives me hope because anybody at MU can plainly see when hoops is down, $ is down, and everything gets effected. We have a real life example from the 80's.
Also, just to be fair to the previous regime(s), the opposite approach would have been to create a SMU-like culture and done whatever was necessary to stay on top (post Al). This would have been far worse in the long run.
MU should never accept or expect mediocrity, but winning and generating revenue isn't worth the price that SMU paid either.
Everybody has their own "line".