MUScoop

Can someone just answer 2 questions.

Has MU raised thier standards so that our players will not be able to play unless they have a 2.7 GPA?

Is Mayo not going to be able to play cause of this and also will not be able to transfer to another school because of this?

Just some talk I heard from someone who would probably not make it up....

If true, I think people will now understand why it has been referred to as Hiroshima...

Quote from: chren21 on May 21, 2012, 10:24:52 AM
Can someone just answer 2 questions.

Has MU raised thier standards so that our players will not be able to play unless they have a 2.7 GPA?

Is Mayo not going to be able to play cause of this and also will not be able to transfer to another school because of this?

Just some talk I heard from someone who would probably not make it up....

Theoretically, if the standards are higher, it would not result in a player not being able to transfer to another school as long as a player would have met the old standards as the old standards are/were at a minimum equal to NCAA/BE standards.

Quote from: Ners on May 21, 2012, 10:27:46 AM
If true, I think people will now understand why it has been referred to as Hiroshima...

Not Hiroshima, but Armageddon........

1. There is no evidence that this is the case...simply hearsay.  But changes in academic standards have been rumored.  2.7 seems ridiculously high in my opinion, so I doubt that is the case.

2. Mayo has been the I have been hearing since the end of last semester.  However I have also been told that his eligibility has been an issue for awhile and may not have any thing to do with any changes in standards.

If Mayo was not going to be eligible to play or transfer, I can't imagine he'd still be enrolled in school as opposed to being overseas trying to sign on somewhere.

Another question to ask for people who are there...is Mayo on campus?

Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on May 21, 2012, 10:40:10 AM
Another question to ask for people who are there...is Mayo on campus?

Would be curious about this as well. The team should have arrived back last night or this morning.

2.7 is ridiculous.

Remember this impassioned Buzz quote?

Quote

Meanwhile, Williams gave an impassioned response when freshman guard Todd Mayo said "We pray all the time for God to stand on us. He definitely did today," while speaking in the interview room. Buzz explained Mayo's response had a deeper meaning.

"It's got to be about more than winning and losing. When you see kids grow and mature, especially when all the perspective of who they are is not really who they are. So that's why I got in the business, and that's why I'm still in the business. I think that's special, " Williams said.

"Faith, hope, and love, and the greatest of these is love, and a lot of these kids have never been loved. And when you've never been loved and you're 20-years-old and somebody tries to love you for the first time, you don't know how to handle it. And when you start talking about God for the first time and when you think about what those kids have been through in the previous 20 years, they're not sure there is a God. So when you start talking about love and you start talking about God and you're with kids every single day and you do it for about 150 days and they get up here and speak (which is a lot harder than you think) to people that they don't know, and they use the same words that you use, it means you're helping their life. That's what it means."

Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on May 21, 2012, 10:37:20 AM
1. There is no evidence that this is the case...simply hearsay.  But changes in academic standards have been rumored.  2.7 seems ridiculously high in my opinion, so I doubt that is the case.

2.7 is ridiculously high. Wouldn't such a standard make Marquette the most difficult D1 university in the country relative to eligibility requirements? As someone else stated, forget Hiroshima - that would be Armageddon. I hesitate to say this is impossible, given that past presidents and the BOT have proven themselves capable of some very poor and shortsighted decisions. But I'll say it anyway - this is impossible.

Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on May 21, 2012, 10:53:54 AM
Remember this impassioned Buzz quote?

Faith, hope and other's perceptions. And the most important of these is perceptions. MU's new motto?

I cannot believe that GPA needed will be raised to 2.7. If so, aside from a slew of academic All Americans not sure what good would come out of this.

Quote from: chren21 on May 21, 2012, 10:24:52 AM
Just some talk I heard from someone who would probably not make it up....

Just because your "someone" didn't make it up, doesn't mean the person who told him/her didn't.

Dang it, people... start questioning your sources. Ask them where they heard it and how they know.  We should be dispelling rumors here, not perpetuating them.

Wow, that would be terrible.  I never had a 2.7 during my entire time at Marquette. Part of the time there was from not studying, but the rest of the time was from working three jobs at once - at the milwaukee journal, news editor for the trib, and interning for a us senator.

Education should be about the whole experience at Marquette, and I've certainly had plenty of success even compared to many a 3.8 gpa student. McGuire isn't the only one to note thatthe c students often are more successful than the a students - especially if they've earned the c with a more well rounded effort like working or balancing studies with the rigors of d1 basketball.

I'd hire the latter any day, and it would be a travesty if MU set a 2.7 bar. No offense to the 4.0 students out there - including my wife - but I am going to just assume that is no the case, particularly I it meant chasing off mayo on that basis.  

Quote from: tower912 on May 21, 2012, 10:51:59 AM
2.7 is ridiculous.

Or what was needed...

Thank goodness we didn't need a 2.7 to get into the Avalanche. 

i missed it - where are they passing out the tin foil hats again?

Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on May 21, 2012, 11:21:48 AM
Or what was needed...

That's my guess.

It cannot be a 2.7.  There is no well in hell that is the new standard.  You can graduate from the University without ever getting a 2.7.  Don't believe this..and chren didn't believe it either...he simply asked the question.

ZFB was a 2.7 student.

Trust me, you don't want my ass anywhere near a d1 court.

Bigger question...based off earlier post, is Mayo in or out? He is helluva player and don't want to lose him. Anyone know status?

OK. Put the tinfoil hats away. Chren I believe that your "source" misunderstood something. No player was beholden to standards that increased to 2.7 overall GPA. It is the likely interpretation that Mayo had to attain that second semester to meet minimum NCAA standards which is why the transfer issue was raised. Don't know if he is eligible for next year or not. Looking into it. 

Quote from: bamamarquettefan on May 21, 2012, 11:16:23 AM
Wow, that would be terrible.  I never had a 2.7 during my entire time at Marquette. Part of the time there was from not studying, but the rest of the time was from working three jobs at once - at the milwaukee journal, news editor for the trib, and interning for a us senator.

Education should be about the whole experience at Marquette, and I've certainly had plenty of success even compared to many a 3.8 gpa student. McGuire isn't the only one to note thatthe c students often are more successful than the a students - especially if they've earned the c with a more well rounded effort like working or balancing studies with the rigors of d1 basketball.

I'd hire the latter any day, and it would be a travesty if MU set a 2.7 bar. No offense to the 4.0 students out there - including my wife - but I am going to just assume that is no the case, particularly I it meant chasing off mayo on that basis.  

I believe my final Marquette school of engineering GPA - rounded up - was 2.7.

My wife is one of those a 4.0 GPA students too.

Quote from: ZiggysFryB'oy on May 21, 2012, 11:53:39 AM
ZFB was a 2.7 student.

Trust me, you don't want my ass anywhere near a d1 court.

Ha, yeah. Same here, thankfully I was eligible to play coed intertube water polo.

Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on May 21, 2012, 12:29:14 PM
OK. Put the tinfoil hats away. Chren I believe that your "source" misunderstood something. No player was beholden to standards that increased to 2.7 overall GPA. It is the likely interpretation that Mayo had to attain that second semester to meet minimum NCAA standards which is why the transfer issue was raised. Don't know if he is eligible for next year or not. Looking into it. 

That definitely makes a lot more sense. In other words, BOOOOOO! Get your logic off this message board!

Mayo is one of my favorite players on the team and I'm expecting big things from him next season but in all honesty, with the help and tutoring that college athletes get, if a comm major can't pull a 2.7 with his scholarship on the line, he probably doesn't belong at MU in the first place.

Quote from: MU Fan in Connecticut on May 21, 2012, 12:31:02 PM
I believe my final Marquette school of engineering GPA - rounded up - was 2.7.

My wife is one of those a 4.0 GPA students too.

I interview a lot of people and lets just say if I see a 3.7 or higher for undergrad its a red flag for me unless they have a significant number extra curriculars.  Anybody can study 12 hours a day and come down with good grads, its the ability to prioritize and make decisions that maters.  Having said that I call BS on 2.7 as the new standard and Sultan is right on this.

I was previously part of the tin hat brigade but not this time my friend.

Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on May 21, 2012, 12:29:14 PM
OK. Put the tinfoil hats away. Chren I believe that your "source" misunderstood something. No player was beholden to standards that increased to 2.7 overall GPA. It is the likely interpretation that Mayo had to attain that second semester to meet minimum NCAA standards which is why the transfer issue was raised. Don't know if he is eligible for next year or not. Looking into it. 

So, if he needed a second semester 2.7 GPA to continue, with an overall average of 2.0 probably passing, that means he was carrying a 1.3 at the time, which is pretty ugly.  Something like that.......

Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on May 21, 2012, 12:29:14 PM
OK. Put the tinfoil hats away. Chren I believe that your "source" misunderstood something. No player was beholden to standards that increased to 2.7 overall GPA. It is the likely interpretation that Mayo had to attain that second semester to meet minimum NCAA standards which is why the transfer issue was raised. Don't know if he is eligible for next year or not. Looking into it. 

Minimum NCAA standards at the close of freshman year are 1.8. That (needing a 2.7) means Todd had a .9 after his first semester. If those are the facts I have no problem with whatever happens. I'll miss Todd but his leaving will be all on him. If he makes the NCAA minimum but is kicked to the curb due to a mid year change in the rules it's all on the adminstration.

Quote from: Lennys Tap on May 21, 2012, 12:49:39 PM


Minimum NCAA standards at the close of freshman year are 1.8. That (needing a 2.7) means Todd had a .9 after his first semester. If those are the facts I have no problem with whatever happens. I'll miss Todd but his leaving will be all on him. If he makes the NCAA minimum but is kicked to the curb due to a mid year change in the rules it's all on the adminstration.

Well put Lenny, I completely agree.

Quote from: mu03eng on May 21, 2012, 12:36:38 PM
I believe my final Marquette school of engineering GPA - rounded up - was 2.7.

My wife is one of those a 4.0 GPA students too.
--------------------------------------------------
I interview a lot of people and lets just say if I see a 3.7 or higher for undergrad its a red flag for me unless they have a significant number extra curriculars.  Anybody can study 12 hours a day and come down with good grads, its the ability to prioritize and make decisions that maters.  Having said that I call BS on 2.7 as the new standard and Sultan is right on this.

I was previously part of the tin hat brigade but not this time my friend.

She worked a full-time job simultaneously while earning the undergrad degree. 

Quote from: Lennys Tap on May 21, 2012, 12:49:39 PM


Minimum NCAA standards at the close of freshman year are 1.8. That (needing a 2.7) means Todd had a .9 after his first semester. If those are the facts I have no problem with whatever happens. I'll miss Todd but his leaving will be all on him. If he makes the NCAA minimum but is kicked to the curb due to a mid year change in the rules it's all on the adminstration.

Or the 2.7 was to get to the new MU academic standards, which may be higher than the NCAA standards and meaning the student had higher than a .9 after his first semester.  Just throwing out that idea.

Quote from: Lennys Tap on May 21, 2012, 12:49:39 PM


Minimum NCAA standards at the close of freshman year are 1.8. That (needing a 2.7) means Todd had a .9 after his first semester. If those are the facts I have no problem with whatever happens. I'll miss Todd but his leaving will be all on him. If he makes the NCAA minimum but is kicked to the curb due to a mid year change in the rules it's all on the adminstration.

Slow clap.

Quote from: Niv Berkowitz on May 21, 2012, 02:09:09 PM
Slow clap.

Slightly faster clap.

Quote from: TedBaxter on May 21, 2012, 01:58:16 PM
Or the 2.7 was to get to the new MU academic standards, which may be higher than the NCAA standards and meaning Todd was higher than a .9 after his first semester.  Just throwing out that idea.

Agreed. Bottom line: IF the standards were changed retroactively at the semester, that in and of itself was arbitrary and grossly unfair. IF, on top of that, someone is thrown under the bus who meets the standards the administration was using at mid semester you have Hiroshima. Before anyone breaks out the hackneyed "tin foil hat" stuff, please note: I said IF and put it in CAPS.

Quote from: Bocephys on May 21, 2012, 02:13:23 PM
Slightly faster clap.

Quite a bit faster clap.

Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on May 21, 2012, 10:40:10 AM
Another question to ask for people who are there...is Mayo on campus?

Yes he is, I saw him last night at Murphy's. I am 100% positive it was him

Quote from: MU Fan in Connecticut on May 21, 2012, 01:50:54 PM
She worked a full-time job simultaneously while earning the undergrad degree. 

Then your wife is quite a bit better than you....you are welcome to join my club  ;D

Excellent news re Mayo!  The facyt that he is on campus is a great sign!

Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on May 21, 2012, 03:14:11 PM
Excellent news re Mayo!  The facyt that he is on campus is a great sign!

+1

He was definitely my biggest concern. I have to think him being back is a good sign, though this whole thing reinforces my belief that he won't be here 4 years. I think as soon as he's a 16+ ppg guy, he's headed to the Draft, even if he comes off the bench (ala Dion Waiters) to get it.

Quote from: mu03eng on May 21, 2012, 02:37:19 PM
She worked a full-time job simultaneously while earning the undergrad degree.  

Then your wife is quite a bit better than you....you are welcome to join my club  ;D

Count me in.   :)

Do I throw in the 3 masters degrees she also earned?......while working and then along came our kids.....and 4.0 in all three.

I did a triathalon yesterday...................

Quote from: MU Fan in Connecticut on May 21, 2012, 03:18:15 PM
Count me in.   :)

Do I throw in the 3 masters degrees she also earned?......while working and then along came our kids.....and 4.0 in all three.

I did a triathalon yesterday...................

Drinking a beer while changing the channel and scratching your crotch doesn't count as a triathalon.

So I'm not a world class athlete?

Quote from: Lennys Tap on May 21, 2012, 02:22:22 PM
Agreed. Bottom line: IF the standards were changed retroactively at the semester, that in and of itself was arbitrary and grossly unfair. IF, on top of that, someone is thrown under the bus who meets the standards the administration was using at mid semester you have Hiroshima. Before anyone breaks out the hackneyed "tin foil hat" stuff, please note: I said IF and put it in CAPS.

Agree.

My hope/guess if that MU is smart enough to give the guys a chance to make good.

Whoa, whoa, whoa.   Back it up.

Here I thought the skies were all clear.

Squeeze fellas.



(http://i1158.photobucket.com/albums/p618/bjamesb85/sij.jpg)

Quote from: brewcity77 on May 21, 2012, 03:16:19 PM
+1

He was definitely my biggest concern. I have to think him being back is a good sign, though this whole thing reinforces my belief that he won't be here 4 years. I think as soon as he's a 16+ ppg guy, he's headed to the Draft, even if he comes off the bench (ala Dion Waiters) to get it.

If he can be a 16+ ppg guy ala Dion Waiters I'll be the first guy to thank him for his service and wish him luck in the NBA, and I'll do the same for any others good enough to go pro before their eligibility has expired.

Quote from: Lennys Tap on May 21, 2012, 03:46:31 PM
If he can be a 16+ ppg guy ala Dion Waiters I'll be the first guy to thank him for his service and wish him luck in the NBA, and I'll do the same for any others good enough to go pro before their eligibility has expired.

Haha. Yes. Exactly right.

I have to throw this question out here, maybe someone knows. 

If player A does not make the appropriate grades, can the player sit out a semester and/or year, get his grades up to standards and re-join the team the following semester/year.  If so, does Player A lose the athletic scholarship for the sitting out the timeframe.

I am sure this has happened at other colleges/universities, where the athlete does not want to transfer, but stay at the institution.  Only issue would be if the institution does't want them because of the grades and sends them on their way. 

Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on May 21, 2012, 11:49:39 AM
It cannot be a 2.7.  There is no well in hell that is the new standard.  You can graduate from the University without ever getting a 2.7.  Don't believe this..and chren didn't believe it either...he simply asked the question.

Correct.  Does anyone know if new standards have been put in place?  If we do have new standards I can only imagine that buzz cannot be happy about the effect on recruiting it will have.  If there is new standards being put on him by his new bosses his consideration of smu makes much more sense. 

Quote from: chren21 on May 21, 2012, 04:51:58 PM
Correct.  Does anyone know if new standards have been put in place? 

Is this question rhetorical?  Nobody here has verified it, and there hasn't been anything from the school.  This has been  discussed here for weeks.  Maybe (a) WAIT AND SEE IF THIS STUFF ACTUALLY HAPPENS, or (b) email the athletic department?  You seem a bit more desperate to know than most. 

Quote from: chren21 on May 21, 2012, 04:51:58 PM
If we do have new standards I can only imagine that buzz cannot be happy about the effect on recruiting it will have.  If there is new standards being put on him by his new bosses his consideration of smu makes much more sense. 

"If... If...I can only imagine."  CLASSIC. 

Quote from: chren21 on May 21, 2012, 04:51:58 PM
Correct.  Does anyone know if new standards have been put in place?  If we do have new standards I can only imagine that buzz cannot be happy about the effect on recruiting it will have.  If there is new standards being put on him by his new bosses his consideration of smu makes much more sense. 

Why would you assume that Buzz is against increased academic standards?

Quote from: Benny B on May 21, 2012, 11:54:43 PM
Why would you assume that Buzz is against increased academic standards?

Why would any coach, who is judged on wins and losses, in an ultra competitive profession, want to be held to a standard higher than 95% of his peers?  Without the horses, even the best coaches aren't able to win at a high rate...you need the talented kids...and if you reduce the talent pool you can recruit from, you are essentially reducing a coaches chances at winning, and thus retaining their job.

Quote from: Ners on May 22, 2012, 12:26:55 AM
Why would any coach, who is judged on wins and losses, in an ultra competitive profession, want to be held to a standard higher than 95% of his peers?  Without the horses, even the best coaches aren't able to win at a high rate...you need the talented kids...and if you reduce the talent pool you can recruit from, you are essentially reducing a coaches chances at winning, and thus retaining their job.

Thanks. That answer was pretty obvious, I thought.  

Quote from: lab_warrior on May 21, 2012, 11:05:01 PM
Is this question rhetorical?  Nobody here has verified it, and there hasn't been anything from the school.  This has been  discussed here for weeks.  Maybe (a) WAIT AND SEE IF THIS STUFF ACTUALLY HAPPENS, or (b) email the athletic department?  You seem a bit more desperate to know than most.  

"If... If...I can only imagine."  CLASSIC.  

Sorry I do not read this board from cover to cover.  When I heard this type of talk, yes I was VERY CONCERNED.  I'm not sure if desperate is the right word but I could only assume that the results would be obvious. 

IF BUZZ's bosses have imposed standards on him including new academic standards and other attempts to help him "avoid player issues that end up in the pubic eye" he WILL accept the next quality offer that comes his way.  

I have one last question.  Some of the new top recruits may be arriving for the summer....   I wonder if someone there can verify if they are being allowed to live in Humpfrey hall or not?  If this was already addressed I apologize in advance....

What I really wonder is why anyone thinks there is a correlation between good grades and good behavior.

Quote from: Hards_Alumni on May 22, 2012, 06:26:29 AM
What I really wonder is why anyone thinks there is a correlation between good grades and good behavior.

Well, I'm sure if you look at a given group of 18-22 year old boys, there is a statistical correlation.  However you shouldn't treat individuals as a group.

Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on May 22, 2012, 06:46:13 AM

Well, I'm sure if you look at a given group of 18-22 year old boys, there is a statistical correlation.  However you shouldn't treat individuals as a group.

Also, correlation doesn't necessarily mean causation.

Quote from: Jamailman on May 22, 2012, 06:48:06 AM
Also, correlation doesn't necessarily mean causation.

Exactly.

Quote from: Hards_Alumni on May 22, 2012, 08:03:22 AM
Exactly.

Right...but you specifically said "correlation."

Quote from: MU Fan in Connecticut on May 21, 2012, 03:18:15 PM
Count me in.   :)

Do I throw in the 3 masters degrees she also earned?......while working and then along came our kids.....and 4.0 in all three.

I did a triathalon yesterday...................

....and in her eighth month she painted the house, using an extension ladder, which she moved herself because MUFIC had to go to town to get a hair cut.  So there!

Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on May 22, 2012, 08:08:59 AM

Right...but you specifically said "correlation."

bahahaha touche, sir.

Quote from: Jamailman on May 22, 2012, 06:48:06 AM
Also, correlation doesn't necessarily mean causation.

I'll probably get ripped for this, but is there any causation between being good at basketball and having a low GPA?

Is it possible we think this is a big deal, but it really isn't?

Quote from: brewcity77 on May 21, 2012, 03:16:19 PM
+1

He was definitely my biggest concern. I have to think him being back is a good sign, though this whole thing reinforces my belief that he won't be here 4 years. I think as soon as he's a 16+ ppg guy, he's headed to the Draft, even if he comes off the bench (ala Dion Waiters) to get it.

I never expected Mayo to be here 4 years after seeing him play early on last year.  He has good size, good skills, great pedigree (do you know OJ Mayo was his half brother) and is a 21 year old freshmen.  I thought two years tops so yes if he dialed it up another notch this coming year, I would bet it would be his last year here.

Quote from: 2002MUalum on May 22, 2012, 09:45:54 AM
I'll probably get ripped for this, but is there any causation between being good at basketball and having a low GPA?

"Causation?"  No.  How would being good at basketball cause you to have a low GPA?  Correlation?  Don't know.

Are folks actually saying that the academic standards for basketball players are different than the standards for the rest of athletes....well excuse me but that is just ridiculous. There are athletic standards for the university and the whole university and there are not different standards for one group versus another...I can not believe anyone is actually buying that.

Please Father P and LW understand the value MU basketball brings to this school and Chuck S is a huge supporter of the team and Buzz as well.

Step back from the cliff and let it go....

Quote from: BigDaddy84 on May 22, 2012, 10:36:16 AM
Are folks actually saying that the academic standards for basketball players are different than the standards for the rest of athletes....well excuse me but that is just ridiculous. There are athletic standards for the university and the whole university and there are not different standards for one group versus another...I can not believe anyone is actually buying that.

Please Father P and LW understand the value MU basketball brings to this school and Chuck S is a huge supporter of the team and Buzz as well.

Step back from the cliff and let it go....

Where did anyone actually say that?

Quote from: BigDaddy84 on May 22, 2012, 10:36:16 AM
Are folks actually saying that the academic standards for basketball players are different than the standards for the rest of athletes....well excuse me but that is just ridiculous. There are athletic standards for the university and the whole university and there are not different standards for one group versus another...I can not believe anyone is actually buying that.

Please Father P and LW understand the value MU basketball brings to this school and Chuck S is a huge supporter of the team and Buzz as well.

Step back from the cliff and let it go....

No, I think folks are speculating that academic standards for all student athletes may have been slightly (and retroactively) increased, which may or may not make it impossible for some student athletes to meet such standards given the grades they already have.

Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on May 22, 2012, 10:32:58 AM
 
"Causation?"  No.  How would being good at basketball cause you to have a low GPA?  Correlation?  Don't know.

Right, I guess I'm just trying to use my best critical thinking skills before I freak out.

If we don't think there is a causation between higher GPA and "behavior", why are we acting like there is a causation between being good at basketball and low GPA?

My gut reaction is that higher standards MIGHT hurt MU's ability to keep good players eligible, but maybe it really won't amount to anything.

Please add Big Daddy to the membership of non-tinfoil hat club.   Hell, he should be president.  

Thanks for the voice of reason and reality.  

Quote from: BigDaddy84 on May 22, 2012, 10:36:16 AM
Are folks actually saying that the academic standards for basketball players are different than the standards for the rest of athletes....well excuse me but that is just ridiculous. There are athletic standards for the university and the whole university and there are not different standards for one group versus another...I can not believe anyone is actually buying that.

Please Father P and LW understand the value MU basketball brings to this school and Chuck S is a huge supporter of the team and Buzz as well.

Step back from the cliff and let it go....

There seem to be quite a few MUScoopers who couldn't pull off a 3.0 while at Marquette (although, you guys did seem to marry well).

Methinks you should've been Education majors.

*Except for the whole not-make-any-money-after-graduation thing*

Quote from: madtownwarrior on May 22, 2012, 10:52:09 AM
Please add Big Daddy to the membership of non-tinfoil hat club.   Hell, he should be president.  

Thanks for the voice of reason and reality.  

I don't think anyone has sad that the academic standards are different for bball players. Most times I have seen the topic brought up, it was a change in Athletic Department policy that applied to all athletes, we on this board just happen to be talking more about bball players.

That said, did we have to start another thread about this? Can we just wait till it plays out or something actually happens with another transfer?

Quote from: 2002MUalum on May 22, 2012, 09:45:54 AM
I'll probably get ripped for this, but is there any causation between being good at basketball and having a low GPA?

Is it possible we think this is a big deal, but it really isn't?

I don't know that there is an empirical study that correlates basketball skill to GPA, just like there probably isn't a study linking good gpa and good behavior.  However anecdotaly I think there is plenty of stories of players getting slide through school because of their athletic prowess.

Similarly is there a correlation between GPA and IQ, not necessarily.

All three are bell curves, I think the basketball-gpa curve skews to the left side, the good gpa and good behavior skews to the right, and the GPA and IQ sits in the middle.  The key would be to get enough overlap between the first two curves to give a sizable pool of talent to field a team.

Quote from: jesmu84 on May 22, 2012, 10:56:14 AM
I don't think anyone has sad that the academic standards are different for bball players. Most times I have seen the topic brought up, it was a change in Athletic Department policy that applied to all athletes, we on this board just happen to be talking more about bball players.

That said, did we have to start another thread about this? Can we just wait till it plays out or something actually happens with another transfer?

What is so bad about discussing it now?  So some posters get their knickers in a twist, who cares they are the ones that have to carry that stress.  I've never seen or heard a topic so dangerous it could be discussed

Quote from: mu03eng on May 22, 2012, 10:58:48 AM
I've never seen or heard a topic so dangerous it could be discussed

not sure if youtube videos can be inserted so a link will have to suffice

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8gpjk_MaCGM

Quote from: Ners on May 22, 2012, 12:26:55 AM
Why would any coach, who is judged on wins and losses, in an ultra competitive profession, want to be held to a standard higher than 95% of his peers?  Without the horses, even the best coaches aren't able to win at a high rate...you need the talented kids...and if you reduce the talent pool you can recruit from, you are essentially reducing a coaches chances at winning, and thus retaining their job.

Who said anything about the 95th percentile?  My question was why would anyone assume that Buzz is against increased academic standards.  It seems that all of the vitriol and vilification of certain parties around here has less to do with thresholds and more to do with principle - the principle being that any increase in academic standards is going to tank MU's basketball program.

Frankly, some of you may be getting your panties in a bunch needlessly if the "academic standards" being discussed have nothing to do with GPA's (or at least not on the magnitude being speculated).  It may have more to do with something as innocuous as new minimum qualifications for tutors.  It may have to do with shifting of study times.  It may have to do with raising the GPA minimum -- by five-hundreths of a point.  Or it may simply have to do with the quality of education that athletes are receiving.

Believe me, I'm all for raising academic standards amongst athletes.  They should be getting the best education possible, and if someone falls behind, I'm all for MU putting the resources in place to catch that person up.

ANYONE can get a 2.0 GPA.  It's a question of how much time does the student put in and what resources are available.  Buzz isn't recruiting guys who have lackadaisical work ethics, so if there is a problem, it's the school's, not the students'.

Quote from: WI_inferiority_complexes on May 22, 2012, 10:55:02 AM
There seem to be quite a few MUScoopers who couldn't pull off a 3.0 while at Marquette (although, you guys did seem to marry well).

Methinks you should've been Education majors.

*Except for the whole not-make-any-money-after-graduation thing*

Are you sure about that? What's the correlation between a woman's GPA and her attractiveness?  ;D

Quote from: madtownwarrior on May 22, 2012, 10:52:09 AM
Please add Big Daddy to the membership of non-tinfoil hat club.   Hell, he should be president.  

Thanks for the voice of reason and reality.  

Why don't we put Big Daddy in the "Can't Read" club instead? He's astonished that people are suggesting that our basketball players will be held to higher academic standards than our other student athletes. Great, except that nobody is suggesting that. And you call that the voice of reason and reality. In what universe?

One of you should email Mike Broeker, and just ask him.  Worst he can say is .. no comment.

Quote from: Lennys Tap on May 22, 2012, 12:15:26 PM
Why don't we put Big Daddy in the "Can't Read" club instead? He's astonished that people are suggesting that our basketball players will be held to higher academic standards than our other student athletes. Great, except that nobody is suggesting that. And you call that the voice of reason and reality. In what universe?

Well, in Big Daddy's defense, the topic is titled "New Standards for hoops players", not "New Standards for MU Athletes". 

Quote from: BrewCity BallCrusher on May 22, 2012, 04:28:04 PM
Well, in Big Daddy's defense, the topic is titled "New Standards for hoops players", not "New Standards for MU Athletes". 

Fair point. Sorry Big Daddy.

Quote from: Lennys Tap on May 22, 2012, 05:51:28 PM
Fair point. Sorry Big Daddy.

That is a good point.  I would assume though it would be for all athletes although my concern is primarily the effect it would have on the hoops team. Right wrong or other...

From everything I have heard, the administration is going to be making things pretty difficult for Buzz. I think the fans and alumni should become very vocal regarding the basketball program and its future. Buzz is a great young coach. If he cannot bring in the kind of athletes he has built this program with, he will move on. That is a no brainer!

From what I hear (from very connected people) the president and AD want to change things because of the negative press Marquette got last year. Did some of our players make some mistakes? Yes! Does that mean an overhaul of the program is needed. Absolutely not! Buzz is a standup guy. He is taking in kids and teaching them about life. Will some of them make mistakes along the way? Of course. However, it took Crean and Buzz over a decade to put us back into the national spotlight. I sure hope these two new staff members don't come in a try to make huge changes that we could regret for many years to come.

I wrote the AD on this topic and I haven't gotten a response as of yet. If I do, I will let everyone on the board know what is mentioned in his response.

GO MU!

Quote from: hoops12 on May 22, 2012, 10:21:59 PM
From everything I have heard, the administration is going to be making things pretty difficult for Buzz. I think the fans and alumni should become very vocal regarding the basketball program and its future. Buzz is a great young coach. If he cannot bring in the kind of athletes he has built this program with, he will move on. That is a no brainer!

From what I hear (from very connected people) the president and AD want to change things because of the negative press Marquette got last year. Did some of our players make some mistakes? Yes! Does that mean an overhaul of the program is needed. Absolutely not! Buzz is a standup guy. He is taking in kids and teaching them about life. Will some of them make mistakes along the way? Of course. However, it took Crean and Buzz over a decade to put us back into the national spotlight. I sure hope these two new staff members don't come in a try to make huge changes that we could regret for many years to come.

I wrote the AD on this topic and I haven't gotten a response as of yet. If I do, I will let everyone on the board know what is mentioned in his response.

GO MU!

Unless you're willing to name your "connected" sources, we'll thank you for your comment that has now put an unfounded rumor into the ad nauseum tier.

Quote from: Benny B on May 22, 2012, 10:30:57 PM
Unless you're willing to name your "connected" sources, we'll thank you for your comment that has now put an unfounded rumor into the ad nauseum tier.

I don't even care about naming connections.  I'd just like to hear how they're planning on making "things pretty difficult for Buzz".    Yes, yes, I know potential retroactive academic requirements (which don't seem likely).  What else, penalties if players don't represent the university in a positive way?  As long as those penalties hold among all sports I'm OK with that.  A ban on sweet tea?  I don't like the stuff, but that one might be unforgivable to buzz. 

2 very specific items I heard besides the GPA standards.  Hoops players will not be able to live in Humphrey until at least their junior year.  There will be some sort of board that will vote on potential borderline recruits including any junior college possibilities.  How will buzz react to different standards being put on Junior college players when he went to a JC?

Quote from: chren21 on May 23, 2012, 04:59:00 AM
2 very specific items I heard besides the GPA standards.  Hoops players will not be able to live in Humphrey until at least their junior year.  There will be some sort of board that will vote on potential borderline recruits including any junior college possibilities.  How will buzz react to different standards being put on Junior college players when he went to a JC?

So if these items are true, this puts Buzz at some disadvantages in recruiting.  The rooms in Humphrey were some of the largest on campus, so now you will be putting them in regular dorm rooms away from the junior and senior players. Buzz loses a housing selling point on a campus that isn't exactly a garden spot to begin with and the team may lose some comraderie by not being closer in proximity?  

If the borderline/JUCO recruit board vote is true, Buzz would have to submit his recruit request to a board before he even offers the student/athlete and how does a board vote on a student/athlete they don't know or have never met personally and don't have final transcripts for?  Let's say you have a kid like Jae Crowder who commits before he ever visited and will he sign and then be told, "no, you don't fit in at Marquette" even if he meets the requirements to get into school and has never been in any sort of trouble?  Let's be honest, the dreadlock look doesn't pass the test for some conservative people, so do looks play into this review process?  This process could become very, very subjective and very judgmental.  Buzz could get to know the kid and think he's a great fit for the university and get denied.

I'll just say this will be very, very interesting going forward if this is true and I'm saying IF it's true.

On another note, if hoops12 is who I think he is, his father played at Marquette.  Good enough connection?

Quote from: chren21 on May 23, 2012, 04:59:00 AM
2 very specific items I heard besides the GPA standards.  Hoops players will not be able to live in Humphrey until at least their junior year.  There will be some sort of board that will vote on potential borderline recruits including any junior college possibilities.  How will buzz react to different standards being put on Junior college players when he went to a JC?

By taking a different coaching job.

Nah, hoops is Riley Crean

Quote from: TedBaxter on May 23, 2012, 06:28:30 AM
On another note, if hoops12 is who I think he is, his father played at Marquette.  Good enough connection?

Won't comment on a specific poster, but we do have several posters who either have player connections, or were players themselves.  I don't know that either one helps them with having better info on Buzz's conversations with his bosses.

Quote from: chren21 on May 23, 2012, 04:59:00 AM
2 very specific items I heard besides the GPA standards.  Hoops players will not be able to live in Humphrey until at least their junior year.  There will be some sort of board that will vote on potential borderline recruits including any junior college possibilities.  How will buzz react to different standards being put on Junior college players when he went to a JC?

IF true... then yikes. I'm not sure any coach out there wants a "board" to review the recruits they select for their squad. And putting players into "normal" dorms their first few years on campus helps how? I figure keeping them out of the general populace and in one place all together would be better for a lot of reasons... guess that's why I'm not a college administrator.

Quote from: jesmu84 on May 23, 2012, 07:27:01 AM
IF true... then yikes. I'm not sure any coach out there wants a "board" to review the recruits they select for their squad. And putting players into "normal" dorms their first few years on campus helps how? I figure keeping them out of the general populace and in one place all together would be better for a lot of reasons... guess that's why I'm not a college administrator.

Yeah.... if true I don't like this at all.  What JUCO player under Buzz has been a problem anyway?  To go so far as to blanket label all JUCO players as "borderline" and in need of a review before some know-nothing board is patently ridiculous.  I could see Buzz getting pissed at this, and rightfully so.

Don't overreact to the "board" idea.  Admissions at many universities are decided by a "board," or a committee of admissions people, especially those with complicated academic backgrounds like JUCO transfers.  In fact, this could have been occurring all along but now it is coming to light and getting spun.

Quote from: jesmu84 on May 23, 2012, 07:27:01 AM
And putting players into "normal" dorms their first few years on campus helps how? I figure keeping them out of the general populace and in one place all together would be better for a lot of reasons... guess that's why I'm not a college administrator.

You have common sense, and have worked in the real world... that's why you're not a college administrator.

Taking them out of Humphrey is an awful idea.

Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on May 23, 2012, 07:50:02 AM
Don't overreact to the "board" idea.  Admissions at many universities are decided by a "board," or a committee of admissions people, especially those with complicated academic backgrounds like JUCO transfers.  In fact, this could have been occurring all along but now it is coming to light and getting spun.

Agreed.  Many, if not most, universities have a board/panel/group (whatever you want to name it) that decides on athletes that do not get admitted on their own academic merits.  I suspect this was the case at MU, as it had been in the past.  We often hear that coaches have only so many passes to get players admitted.

Until we see more on this, one cannot simply assume the worst.

Quote from: MUMac on May 23, 2012, 07:58:41 AM
Until we see more on this, one cannot simply assume the worst.

I disagree.

/makes tinfoil cowboy hat (fashionable and practical)
/heads to bunker with canned food, porn, ELO.

Quote from: MUfan12 on May 23, 2012, 07:51:48 AM
You have common sense, and have worked in the real world... that's why you're not a college administrator.

Try hard not to be a wiener OK?  College administrators work as much in the "real world" as a lot of people and have to balance many issues.  I know that a lot of schools have dropped "athletic dorms" for many reasons...I know that a few have brought them back.  I think it is the height of ignorance to simply say it is an "awful idea" without understanding the reasoning behind the idea...or even if it occurring at all.

Don't buy into the "board" statement.  Admissions of athletes were previously handled by a single person, that person has left the university and they are now using multiple people to vet the students but its not some draconian board that meets in an underground layer.  And this ties into JCs only because of the Crowder situation which required him to bust his ass to get eligible because of his first year of JC not being accredited.  By all accounts this is intended to make sure those types of things are determined early giving everyone a clear picture instead of a panicked mess late in the process.  No offense Chren but I think your source heard the board strokes and inferred the worst.  Count me part of the LW is the devil crowd but this isn't one of things to be concerned about.

As far as the freshmen and sophomores not living in Humphrey, that is so stupid.  Lose out on a lot of camaraderie opportunities, plus it ultimately doesn't solve anything because the players can go visit without any issue.  Kind of like letting your daughter go visit her boyfriend at college but only during the day.....cause yeah that's going to prevent any issues.

Again, appreciate Chren's info but I suspect the source is hearing some things, filtering them through their bias and then reporting things out as fact.

18-year old palyer returns to his dorm room to find his roommate smoking weed or mixing cocktails with half the guys on the floor. Hijinx ensues. How often would this happen in the athletic dorms? How often will this happen in the regular dorms? At least inthe athlete dorms, the coaching staff can keep an eye on every player. I don't see Buzz chasing all over the dorms to see how a new freshman is getting along with his new schoolyard chums.

Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on May 23, 2012, 07:50:02 AM
Don't overreact to the "board" idea.  Admissions at many universities are decided by a "board," or a committee of admissions people, especially those with complicated academic backgrounds like JUCO transfers.  In fact, this could have been occurring all along but now it is coming to light and getting spun.

Correct. Most universities have admissions boards/committees that review borderline students, athletes and non-athletes alike. The fact that Marquette has or is creating one should concern no one.

come on " the administration is going to be making things pretty difficult for Buzz."


this is laughable...  you think their goal is make things difficult for Buzz?

- do you not think the BOT or Pilarz or Williams understand the importance of a strong BBall program at MU and it's positive effect of the university

- also do you not think there is a desire (and need) to make sure MU does not make newspaper headlines with alleged sexual assaults and bar fights  (I think Buzz would even agree with this)

- is there likely changes coming  - yes

- are some changes likely needed - yes

- is there a way to make this happen and keep Buzz on board - yes


For those that say "MU is messing with Buzz's happy"   -  are you happy with winning at a Sweet 16 level yet have sexual assault allegations, bar fight headlines, large % of transfers and players not meeting basic academic standards?   That might be Buzz's happy but I am not sure that is MU's happy"


I think changes are coming, some are needed and but the extent or impacts are no where near the level of the tin-foil hat club are saying (nor the "I have sources" crowd)

Quote from: 2002MUalum on May 23, 2012, 08:03:37 AM
I disagree.

/makes tinfoil cowboy hat (fashionable and practical)
/heads to bunker with canned food, porn, ELO.

So, Madtown, it appears your position has "evolved".

Previously, all suggestions of possible changes were ridiculed and reports that Buzz might be unhappy were mocked.

Now, it's changes are coming, you're happy they're coming and if Buzz doesn't like it he can take a hike.

That's very different, aina?

Quote from: Lennys Tap on May 23, 2012, 10:31:47 AM
So, Madtown, it appears your position has "evolved".

Previously, all suggestions of possible changes were ridiculed and reports that Buzz might be unhappy were mocked.

Now, it's changes are coming, you're happy they're coming and if Buzz doesn't like it he can take a hike.

That's very different, aina?

Don't inject logic into this argument.  Madtown said we're all dumb for worrying about things we can't control, so that's the end of it unfortunately.

Quote from: TedBaxter on May 23, 2012, 06:28:30 AM
On another note, if hoops12 is who I think he is, his father played at Marquette.

Austin Rivers.

Quote from: TedBaxter on May 23, 2012, 06:28:30 AM
On another note, if hoops12 is who I think he is, his father played at Marquette.  Good enough connection?

If my dad worked for the federal government, I'd probably know everything going on in the Oval Office.

Quote from: madtownwarrior on May 23, 2012, 10:10:09 AM







- also do you not think there is a desire (and need) to make sure MU does not make newspaper headlines with alleged sexual assaults and bar fights  (I think Buzz would even agree with this)


For those that say "MU is messing with Buzz's happy"   -  are you happy with winning at a Sweet 16 level yet have sexual assault allegations, bar fight headlines, large % of transfers and players not meeting basic academic standards?   That might be Buzz's happy but I am not sure that is MU's happy"

Here is the problem with this line of thinking.   You are going to have to work awfully hard to find a university that doesn't have  1. Underage drinking.   2.   Underage students in bars.  3.   Students having sex.  4.   There being a dispute as to whether or not the sex was consensual  5.   Administrators mucking up the aftermath of 1-4.    6. Message boards/talk radio/local media get wound up over 1-5.   7.   Kids changing their minds about their collegiate choice.
  In a perfect world, MU would be immune to all of these things.  Ours is not a perfect world.  Unfortunately, it is hard to control 1-5.    The one thing that any of us has even partial control over is 6.
  So, am I 'happy' that MU is not immune from the ills of society?   Not really.    But I accept the reality of 1-5, 7.     I am coming to realize that bureaucrats can't really stray from their nature.    
 

Quote from: tower912 on May 23, 2012, 10:56:14 AM
I am coming to realize that bureaucrats can't really stray from their nature.      

Be careful, Sultan will call you a wiener.

Quote from: MUfan12 on May 23, 2012, 10:57:19 AM
Be careful, Sultan will call you a wiener.

I have nothing wrong with tower said.  Better than a "talking point" response that paints everyone with the same broad brush.  You have no idea IF they are doing this, much less their reasoning behind it.

Quote from: madtownwarrior on May 23, 2012, 10:10:09 AM
come on " the administration is going to be making things pretty difficult for Buzz."


this is laughable...  you think their goal is make things difficult for Buzz?

- do you not think the BOT or Pilarz or Williams understand the importance of a strong BBall program at MU and it's positive effect of the university

Of course their "goal" isn't to to make things difficult for Buzz. And of course they "understand" the importance of a strong BBall program at MU. Guess what? The "goal" of the group that oversaw Notre Dame's football program's demise into mediocrity wasn't to "make things difficult" for the coaches. And I'm sure they said all the right things about understanding football's importance to the university. And I'm sure they were "smart" people. Nonetheless, when the dust settled and players like Tony Rice couldn't get past the Board of Admissions that's what happened. I know you don't think the momentum Buzz has built could ever be stopped and that it'll always be seashells and balloons at MU but I'm not as confident.

Lenny,
Great points and right on target. Love the ND football comparison and agree completely.

Quote from: tower912 on May 23, 2012, 10:56:14 AM
Here is the problem with this line of thinking.   You are going to have to work awfully hard to find a university that doesn't have  1. Underage drinking.   2.   Underage students in bars.  3.   Students having sex.  4.   There being a dispute as to whether or not the sex was consensual  5.   Administrators mucking up the aftermath of 1-4.    6. Message boards/talk radio/local media get wound up over 1-5.   7.   Kids changing their minds about their collegiate choice.
  In a perfect world, MU would be immune to all of these things.  Ours is not a perfect world.  Unfortunately, it is hard to control 1-5.    The one thing that any of us has even partial control over is 6.
  So, am I 'happy' that MU is not immune from the ills of society?   Not really.    But I accept the reality of 1-5, 7.     I am coming to realize that bureaucrats can't really stray from their nature.    
 

With you 100%. And in their sincere (and elitist, IMHO) belief in their ability to "control" or change things beyond their scope, the unintended consequences can be be severe.

Quote from: TedBaxter on May 23, 2012, 06:28:30 AM
On another note, if hoops12 is who I think he is, his father played at Marquette.  Good enough connection?

I'm just amazed that Rob Frozena has kids old enough to type at a computer.  Who knew?

Never mocked people "for worrying about things we can't control"  - I mock people for using "sources" to make up disaster scenarios for Marquette basketball that are unfounded or part of a tinfoil hat conspiracy.

I don't give crap about you worrying about things out of your control - better you than me...

I also mocking people who claim "don't mess with happy" when happy involves sexual assaults and bar fights and flunking players and a high majority of players no longer finishing degrees (something we used take pride in)...

(but hey that happens at all programs - so what..)

along as we win I guess is all that matters

Quote from: Bocephys on May 23, 2012, 10:48:04 AM
Don't inject logic into this argument.  Madtown said we're all dumb for worrying about things we can't control, so that's the end of it unfortunately.

Quote from: Lennys Tap on May 23, 2012, 11:15:08 AM
Of course their "goal" isn't to to make things difficult for Buzz. And of course they "understand" the importance of a strong BBall program at MU. Guess what? The "goal" of the group that oversaw Notre Dame's football program's demise into mediocrity wasn't to "make things difficult" for the coaches. And I'm sure they said all the right things about understanding football's importance to the university. And I'm sure they were "smart" people. Nonetheless, when the dust settled and players like Tony Rice couldn't get past the Board of Admissions that's what happened. I know you don't think the momentum Buzz has built could ever be stopped and that it'll always be seashells and balloons at MU but I'm not as confident.

This is a good point, and the only thing I can counter with is simply "we don't know", and that's my underlying point all along.

#1 We don't know what changes are going to be made, or the severity of such changes (they could be minor PR style moves)
#2 We don't know the effect those changes are going to have.

ND made changes, and it failed. However, to be fair, if they didn't make any changes and ended up out of control like Miami* or SMU, I don't know if ND would call that a "victory" either.

*I know Miami is an extreme example, but it's apt in this scenario because it's a very good private academic institution that has the advantage/disadvantage of carrying around the Miami rep from the 1980's.

Also, there seems to be an underlying feeling that the MU admin is sitting in some sort of ivory tower looking down it's nose at the sports teams and fans. Is this stigma because of the nickname stuff?

Quote from: madtownwarrior on May 23, 2012, 11:47:18 AM
I also mocking people who claim "don't mess with happy" when happy involves sexual assaults and bar fights and flunking players and a high majority of players no longer finishing degrees (something we used take pride in)...

(but hey that happens at all programs - so what..)

along as we win I guess is all that matters

Can you please point out where you're getting your information for the bolded portions? At most, we've heard rumors of a player struggling academically, but no concrete facts from MU. As well, I have no idea where you're seeing a "majority" of players not getting degrees.

Madtown suddenly has sources on the academic progress of our players. He has been holding out.

flunking players  - per muguru and hiroshima (if true)

and a high majority of players no longer finishing degrees -  a discussion from this board of players not finishing degrees  - Buycks, Hayward, Crowder to name a few,  - albeit to go play pro-ball but still will take away from the graduation rate in the upcoming years....  won't be able to claim the 100% grad rate soon

Quote from: madtownwarrior on May 23, 2012, 12:02:29 PM
flunking players  - per muguru and hiroshima (if true)

and a high majority of players no longer finishing degrees -  a discussion from this board of players not finishing degrees  - Buycks, Hayward, Crowder to name a few,  - albeit to go play pro-ball but still will take away from the graduation rate in the upcoming years....  won't be able to claim the 100% grad rate soon

Buycks, Hayward and Crowder are a high majority?

never evolved - always thought some changes were coming - but not to the level of the tinfoil hat conspiracy crowd here that claims Pilarz and Williams are trying to run Buzz out of here & to turn us into SLU....

and - yes, I am not overly thrilled with the recent MU publicity - I don't buy the it happens everywhere, it just happens that MU has it land on the cover of the Chicago Tribune more often...

and yes - I don't think athletes should be given a pass on grades...

Quote from: Lennys Tap on May 23, 2012, 10:31:47 AM
So, Madtown, it appears your position has "evolved".

Previously, all suggestions of possible changes were ridiculed and reports that Buzz might be unhappy were mocked.

Now, it's changes are coming, you're happy they're coming and if Buzz doesn't like it he can take a hike.

That's very different, aina?

of the last 3 classes of graduating payers - yes...

Quote from: PTM on May 23, 2012, 12:08:37 PM
Buycks, Hayward and Crowder are a high majority?

Quote from: madtownwarrior on May 23, 2012, 12:09:29 PM
of the last 3 classes of graduating payers - yes...

Well, a majority is 51%. A 'high majority' would be something like 80-90+%.

Of the last three senior classes, 33% have not graduated. Of those that didn't graduate, they will be/are making a NBA career which forced them to leave early. So a 'high majority' isn't quite true.

Quote from: madtownwarrior on May 23, 2012, 12:02:29 PM
flunking players  - per muguru and hiroshima (if true)

and a high majority of players no longer finishing degrees -  a discussion from this board of players not finishing degrees  - Buycks, Hayward, Crowder to name a few,  - albeit to go play pro-ball but still will take away from the graduation rate in the upcoming years....  won't be able to claim the 100% grad rate soon

I don't think we ever had a 100% graduation rate.  Hell, Wade never graduated.  We've see no evidence of a deterioration of player performance in the classroom to date or anything different than how it was 10 years ago.  Additionally, Buzz has almost no control over the players' academic performance/admittance, though he has fought for them from time to time.

So you are arguing a different point again....he are saying you are fine with standards changing because you see an academic erosion, where none truly exists.  So why would standards have to change?

Quote from: madtownwarrior on May 23, 2012, 12:08:58 PM
never evolved - always thought some changes were coming - but not to the level of the tinfoil hat conspiracy crowd here that claims Pilarz and Williams are trying to run Buzz out of here & to turn us into SLU....

and - yes, I am not overly thrilled with the recent MU publicity - I don't buy the it happens everywhere, it just happens that MU has it land on the cover of the Chicago Tribune more often...

and yes - I don't think athletes should be given a pass on grades...

Any possibility in your mind that these changes while not intended to directly run Buzz off or decrease the emphasis on basketball, may lead to this as indirect or unintended consequences?  I think the majority of the concerned individuals on this board don't think that LW and Pilarz are attacking Buzz and mubb but that they are doing things that can be foreseen to negatively impact both situations.

Just think of the confluence of events a year from now that could really impact the future success of the program because we're messing with happy unnecessarily.
-Conference realignment(where is MU when the music stops), could be a bad situation at the same time
-Buzz leaves because he is unhappy
-MU continues to have PR issues because of an increased sensitivity in the media market and MU's inability to get out of its own way on PR matters.

All of this combines to leave MU in a very vulnerable position.....that is my concern and how we might end up as SLU if we aren't careful

Quote from: madtownwarrior on May 23, 2012, 12:02:29 PM
flunking players  - per muguru and hiroshima (if true)

and a high majority of players no longer finishing degrees -  a discussion from this board of players not finishing degrees  - Buycks, Hayward, Crowder to name a few,  - albeit to go play pro-ball but still will take away from the graduation rate in the upcoming years....  won't be able to claim the 100% grad rate soon

So we should recruit lesser players because we can't let that pesky NBA thing stand in the way of our grad rate???

mueng03 - agreed - MU may find itself in a SLU like situation based on the events you outlined

That's much different than the tinfoil hat crowd telling the works their sources say Pilaez and Williams desire to bring MU down to the SLU level. 

Quote from: mu03eng on May 23, 2012, 12:21:14 PM
Any possibility in your mind that these changes while not intended to directly run Buzz off or decrease the emphasis on basketball, may lead to this as indirect or unintended consequences?  I think the majority of the concerned individuals on this board don't think that LW and Pilarz are attacking Buzz and mubb but that they are doing things that can be foreseen to negatively impact both situations.

Just think of the confluence of events a year from now that could really impact the future success of the program because we're messing with happy unnecessarily.
-Conference realignment(where is MU when the music stops), could be a bad situation at the same time
-Buzz leaves because he is unhappy
-MU continues to have PR issues because of an increased sensitivity in the media market and MU's inability to get out of its own way on PR matters.

All of this combines to leave MU in a very vulnerable position.....that is my concern and how we might end up as SLU if we aren't careful

Madtown
Becoming SLU does not happen by choice but happens by choices made.

Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on May 23, 2012, 12:28:37 PM

So we should recruit lesser players because we can't let that pesky NBA thing stand in the way of our grad rate???

Exactly. If we can just eliminate potential NBA players from the program everything will be hunky dory.

Quote from: chren21 on May 23, 2012, 04:59:00 AM
2 very specific items I heard besides the GPA standards.  Hoops players will not be able to live in Humphrey until at least their junior year.  There will be some sort of board that will vote on potential borderline recruits including any junior college possibilities.  How will buzz react to different standards being put on Junior college players when he went to a JC?

I have no issue with these two potential changes.  Good to have hoops players mixing it up first two years with the rest of campus--good for them and good for the other students.  Maybe I am naive, but that shouldn't be a huge negative (yes, and I have seen - lived in-- McCormick) in recruiting.  And there already is a group (not a "board", I guess) that votes on potential borderline recruits (and borderline non-athletes, for that matter)?  Any FFPs out there?

Lloyd

Proud FFP here!!!!

Quote from: LloydMooresLegs on May 23, 2012, 12:55:25 PM
I have no issue with these two potential changes.  Good to have hoops players mixing it up first two years with the rest of campus--good for them and good for the other students.  Maybe I am naive, but that shouldn't be a huge negative (yes, and I have seen - lived in-- McCormick) in recruiting.

Fine that you have no issues, but you are naive as to the impact on recruiting. Humphrey Hall is a huge selling point, and I've heard that directly from players.

Quote from: madtownwarrior on May 23, 2012, 12:50:42 PM

mueng03 - agreed - MU may find itself in a SLU like situation based on the events you outlined

That's much different than the tinfoil hat crowd telling the works their sources say Pilaez and Williams desire to bring MU down to the SLU level. 

I don't know that anyone said they wanted us to go backwards as a program. I certainly didn't, but if their policies and leadership get us there I'll still hold them responsible.

Quote from: Lennys Tap on May 23, 2012, 01:00:42 PM
Fine that you have no issues, but you are naive as to the impact on recruiting. Humphrey Hall is a huge selling point, and I've heard that directly from players.

Yeah, as I think about it, maybe the fact that Newman and Laz had to live in McCormack was the reason that we recruited... Newman and Laz...

Quote from: mu03eng on May 23, 2012, 12:21:14 PM
Any possibility in your mind that these changes while not intended to directly run Buzz off or decrease the emphasis on basketball, may lead to this as indirect or unintended consequences?  I think the majority of the concerned individuals on this board don't think that LW and Pilarz are attacking Buzz and mubb but that they are doing things that can be foreseen to negatively impact both situations.

Just think of the confluence of events a year from now that could really impact the future success of the program because we're messing with happy unnecessarily.
-Conference realignment(where is MU when the music stops), could be a bad situation at the same time
-Buzz leaves because he is unhappy
-MU continues to have PR issues because of an increased sensitivity in the media market and MU's inability to get out of its own way on PR matters.

All of this combines to leave MU in a very vulnerable position.....that is my concern and how we might end up as SLU if we aren't careful

- We don't know what the changes are (IF ANY).
- We don't know who has signed off on them (maybe the SMU thing gave Buzz leverage and the revised changes are fine with him now)
- We don't the effects of the possible changes.

You might be 100% right, and this might be the end of MU athletics as we know it.

Or small tweaks might ease some BOT's concerns and the program will keep rolling.

Quote from: Goose on May 23, 2012, 12:56:48 PM
Lloyd

Proud FFP here!!!!

One of my best friends was an FFP.   ;)

Actually, one of the best things I did first week of school was to start hanging with the FFPs--they already had the run of the place, knew where to hang out, knew all the hoops players etc...a nice way to get a stumbling start.  fixed

Quote from: LloydMooresLegs on May 23, 2012, 01:09:21 PM
One of my best friends was an FFP.   ;)

Actually, one of the best things I did first week of school was to start hanging with the FFPs--they already had the run of the place, knew where to hang out, knew all the hoops players etc...a nice way to get a stumbling start.  fixed
[/quote  How was the food?

my wife is an FFP'er!!  I guess I had to prey on the less intelligent   :D

Quote from: PTM on May 23, 2012, 12:08:37 PM
Buycks, Hayward and Crowder are a high majority?

Was it even possible for Buycks and Crowder to graduate? With not all of their Juco credits transferring, I imagine it would be difficult to graduate in two years even with summer sessions.

Quote from: jfmu on May 23, 2012, 02:07:46 PM
Was it even possible for Buycks and Crowder to graduate? With not all of their Juco credits transferring, I imagine it would be difficult to graduate in two years even with summer sessions.

Unsure on Buycks, but Jae is very, very close. If he didn't have to transform his game into a 2 or 3 for the NBA and leave early, he would have been able to graduate a few days ago with a normal class load.

Quote from: Canadian Dimes on May 23, 2012, 01:59:11 PM
my wife is an FFP'er!!  I guess I had to prey on the less intelligent   :D

Frankly, I'm just amazed that any of us are married.

Dimes
What year FFP was your wife? All of us less intelligent students hung closely together. Who knows maybe we were FFP'ers together!!!

My sisters were also FFP'ers...they are big fans of the program. 

Quote from: lab_warrior on May 23, 2012, 02:45:21 PM
My sisters were also FFP'ers...they are big fans of the program. 

As was my sister.  I probably should have been, but transferred in.   8-)

I believe they were even on the program brochure for the next years' FFP. 

HUMBLEBRAG.

Quote from: 2002MUalum on May 23, 2012, 01:08:37 PM
- We don't know what the changes are (IF ANY).
- We don't know who has signed off on them (maybe the SMU thing gave Buzz leverage and the revised changes are fine with him now)
- We don't the effects of the possible changes.

You might be 100% right, and this might be the end of MU athletics as we know it.

Or small tweaks might ease some BOT's concerns and the program will keep rolling.

We are in agreement as is I think 90% of the board, its just a matter of which group has the padlock off the pitchfork shed and which still has it locked up.  ;D

http://www2.housing.wisc.edu/masterplan/lakeshore/renderings.php

I'd rather have the Marquette freshman and sophomore players living in a dorm with character like Carpenter Hall instead of  this new housing complex in Madison.  I'm sure Kevon Looney and Diamond Stone will agree.  Instead of the tranquility of Lake Mendota, the Marquette players can hear the hum of I-43.

sounds like a domerish initiative for sure. 

Quote from: Lennys Tap on May 19, 2012, 05:17:06 PM
So you're okay if our standards are higher than Purdue, Indiana, Wisconsin, Syracuse, Villanova etc.? Fine. How do you think Painter, Crean, Bo, Boeheim or Wright woulld be with it if their administration  upped their standards while the rest of their competition stood pat? Of course, that won't happen. Nobody could be that stupid/shortsighted. Right?

The problem I have with your argument of our standards being tougher than PU, Wisconsin, IU, etc is that they aren't recruiting kids at the minimum standards anyway.  Marquette is.

PU had 7 guys make academic all big 10 this year. Wisconsin had 2.  Indiana had 7.  MU had zero.  Last year MU had one - a walk-on in Frozena. 

Whether we believe majors at those schools are easy or not, they aren't any easier than MU's majors yet they are having every bit the success MU is (UW and IU made the Sweet 16 and Purdue should have) yet they have kids far exceeding what we are academically.

PU, UW, IU may keep their standards at the NCAA min levels but that doesn't mean they are recruiting at the min. standards.  Based on the number of players making all big ten academic teams at universities considered higher ranked than MU academically, that certainly bears out to be the case.  Your argument doesn't hold up in my opinion.  Those three examples you gave have the same standards MU has today, yet they are already recruiting better student athletes based on all-conference basketball honorees and having the same success on the basketball court.  In parallel, there are rumors here that some of our guys are on the road to flunking out or are barely hitting the requirements now, let alone any type of honors.

I, for one, believe MU can field competitive basketball teams every bit as good as ours currently is with kids that are above the minimums.  The three schools you used are great examples of this happening.  There are others throughout the nation.  I believe in Buzz, MU and potential high school kids out there and there are clear examples it can be done at schools not named Stanford or Duke. 

Why are you not a believer in Buzz, MU and the student athletes?

Then why aren't their graduation rates better than ours?

Quote from: Goose on May 23, 2012, 11:19:01 AM
Lenny,
Great points and right on target. Love the ND football comparison and agree completely.

And last I heard, this fixed all of ND's problems.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/chi-notre-dame-qb-rees-jailed-in-police-confrontation-20120503,0,299209.story

http://www.southbendtribune.com/news/wsbt-notre-dame-quarterback-linebacker-arrested-thursday-morning-20120503,0,7930931.story

What are Academic All-American standards? A 3.5? Shoot, I would have been considered a student at the minimum if I was an athlete I guess. I'm sure there have been plenty of successful non-athletes that didn't get a 3.5. Just because you aren't an Academic All-American doesn't mean that you aren't a solid student. I know of many players at MU that were very good, but not All-American players. It's different criteria, but being named a basketball All-American or achieving Academic All-American means you are elite, not that everyone else is just at the minimum.

Quote from: Hoopaloop on May 23, 2012, 09:27:24 PM
The problem I have with your argument of our standards being tougher than PU, Wisconsin, IU, etc is that they aren't recruiting kids at the minimum standards anyway.  Marquette is.

PU had 7 guys make academic all big 10 this year. Wisconsin had 2.  Indiana had 7.  MU had zero.  Last year MU had one - a walk-on in Frozena.  

Whether we believe majors at those schools are easy or not, they aren't any easier than MU's majors yet they are having every bit the success MU is (UW and IU made the Sweet 16 and Purdue should have) yet they have kids far exceeding what we are academically.

PU, UW, IU may keep their standards at the NCAA min levels but that doesn't mean they are recruiting at the min. standards.  Based on the number of players making all big ten academic teams at universities considered higher ranked than MU academically, that certainly bears out to be the case.  Your argument doesn't hold up in my opinion.  Those three examples you gave have the same standards MU has today, yet they are already recruiting better student athletes based on all-conference basketball honorees and having the same success on the basketball court.  In parallel, there are rumors here that some of our guys are on the road to flunking out or are barely hitting the requirements now, let alone any type of honors.

I, for one, believe MU can field competitive basketball teams every bit as good as ours currently is with kids that are above the minimums.  The three schools you used are great examples of this happening.  There are others throughout the nation.  I believe in Buzz, MU and potential high school kids out there and there are clear examples it can be done at schools not named Stanford or Duke.  

Why are you not a believer in Buzz, MU and the student athletes?

A few things.  Saying that Bo doesn't recruit students at the minimum is a bit misleading.  Bo recruits from outside of the big cities in Wisconsin (he did recruit Vander).  In those areas they frankly don't give less than a C regardless of how poor of a student they were.  Grade inflation is rampant in suburbs and less so in the inner cities.  

Second, I would rather give a kid from a disadvantaged area a chance than requiring top grades.  Some of the brightest kids I worked with over the years are the ones you are saying to pass on and the worst people I have worked with are the academic all big 10 types.

The stories of success despite adversity are worth a ton more to me than PU's 7 academic all americans.  Also, as far as I'm aware the Big East hasn't announced their 2011-12 academic all-conference yet, so to claim we have 0 is just plain abusing statistics.

Quote from: cheebs09 on May 23, 2012, 09:59:05 PM
What are Academic All-American standards? A 3.5? Shoot, I would have been considered a student at the minimum if I was an athlete I guess. I'm sure there have been plenty of successful non-athletes that didn't get a 3.5. Just because you aren't an Academic All-American doesn't mean that you aren't a solid student. I know of many players at MU that were very good, but not All-American players. It's different criteria, but being named a basketball All-American or achieving Academic All-American means you are elite, not that everyone else is just at the minimum.

Academic All-American is a 3.3.  Academic all conference is usually a 3.0.  

Quote from: cheebs09 on May 23, 2012, 09:59:05 PM
What are Academic All-American standards? A 3.5? Shoot, I would have been considered a student at the minimum if I was an athlete I guess. I'm sure there have been plenty of successful non-athletes that didn't get a 3.5. Just because you aren't an Academic All-American doesn't mean that you aren't a solid student. I know of many players at MU that were very good, but not All-American players. It's different criteria, but being named a basketball All-American or achieving Academic All-American means you are elite, not that everyone else is just at the minimum.

All Conference is merely a 3.0.  Academic All-American minimum of 3.30 and you go through a vetting process based on what the major is, etc.  You need to be nominated and then awarded by a committee.  The athlete must also play in 50% of the team's games.

Quote from: Lennys Tap on May 23, 2012, 09:43:11 PM
Then why aren't their graduation rates better than ours?

They are not related, you should know that.  If one team of 12 players had 10 guys make All-Academic Big East but only those 10 graduated the grad rate would be 83.3%  Yet a different team could have 12 of 12 guys graduate with all of them carrying a 1.9 GPA.  End result, one team has a higher GPA and academic honorees and the other one has a higher graduation rate.

Additionally, the most current graduation rates are using 6 year averages that start back when Crean was still here.  The current rates start the average at 2004-05 and determine how many student athletes have graduated within 6 years.  

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/special/graphics/local/baskgradrates/index.html    

Later this month the 2010-2011 graduation rates will come out and the rolling average will start with the 2005-06 season.

Quote from: forgetful on May 23, 2012, 10:46:44 PM
A few things.  Saying that Bo doesn't recruit students at the minimum is a bit misleading.  Bo recruits from outside of the big cities in Wisconsin (he did recruit Vander).  In those areas they frankly don't give less than a C regardless of how poor of a student they were.  Grade inflation is rampant in suburbs and less so in the inner cities.  

Second, I would rather give a kid from a disadvantaged area a chance than requiring top grades.  Some of the brightest kids I worked with over the years are the ones you are saying to pass on and the worst people I have worked with are the academic all big 10 types.

The stories of success despite adversity are worth a ton more to me than PU's 7 academic all americans.  Also, as far as I'm aware the Big East hasn't announced their 2011-12 academic all-conference yet, so to claim we have 0 is just plain abusing statistics.

I have not said to pass on anyone.  I have said that the people here running around suggesting a program can't win with higher standards are wrong.  It is done all the time.  Grade inflation exists in city schools as well.  Don't think for a second it doesn't go on at MPS or any other major city school district.  In my experience, kids educated in the suburbs tend to get a better education than the inner city but that is not a universal truth, merely my experience.  You may encounter something different.


Two years ago MU had zero All-Big East academic student athletes.  Last year they had one - walkon Frozena.  You may be correct on this year.  If so, then I will make a retraction.  The Big Ten does Fall, Winter and Spring selections.

http://www.bigeast.org/portals/5/fls/19400/pdfs/Academics/2010-11/all_conference/marquette.pdf


Based on the fright here exhibited by some posters about some players maintaining a minimum standard, it appears that maybe the administration isn't wrong in desiring we recruit kids that won't be in a struggle every semester to hit that mark.

Sorry but to compare recruiting to Marquette to Indiana, Purdue and Madison is an apples to oranges comparison.  Does MU have a football program?  Is MU the flagship university of its state?  Is MU located in a hoops hotbed state?  

MU's graduation rate of its players is commendable.  Just because MU may not have these Academic All Conference kids....who the f cares??  

I like the kids MU has turned out under Crean and Buzz - Were Wes, Jerel, Dom, Lazar Academic All Conference?  Were they bad kids?  Should we not have recruited them?  Jimmy Butler, Joe Fulce, Jae Crowder, Dwight Buycks?

Like I said, at the end of the day, who the f cares if these kids are Academic All Conference - by and large they are great kids that represent the university well.  Only a latent racist/elitist would object to the kids MU has had in its program over the last decade, yet moreso over the last 5 years.

Quote from: Ners on May 23, 2012, 11:20:32 PM
Sorry but to compare recruiting to Marquette to Indiana, Purdue and Madison is an apples to oranges comparison.  Does MU have a football program?  Is MU the flagship university of its state?  Is MU located in a hoops hotbed state?  

MU's graduation rate of its players is commendable.  Just because MU may not have these Academic All Conference kids....who the f cares??  

I like the kids MU has turned out under Crean and Buzz - Were Wes, Jerel, Dom, Lazar Academic All Conference?  Were they bad kids?  Should we not have recruited them?  Jimmy Butler, Joe Fulce, Jae Crowder, Dwight Buycks?

Like I said, at the end of the day, who the f cares if these kids are Academic All Conference - by and large they are great kids that represent the university well.  Only a latent racist/elitist would object to the kids MU has had in its program over the last decade, yet moreso over the last 5 years.

Those were the three schools that Lenny's Tap offered as a comparison

Perhaps Father Pilarz is a racist, but I sincerely doubt it.  The race card is played by people when they have nothing else to argue.  It's the easiest fallback position out there and used at an alarming rate in society.

Quote from: Hoopaloop on May 23, 2012, 11:26:17 PM
The race card is played by people when they have nothing else to argue.  It's the easiest fallback position out there and used at an alarming rate in society.

Interesting to note the composition of the Wisconsin, Indiana and Purdue rosters you mention, and which players were Academic All Conference...pretty sure roughly 80% of them are white kids - most of which are walk on caliber/bit players at those schools...other than perhaps Hummel and Berggren.  Also interesting to note some here have long argued for MU to recruit more "traditionals," defined as guys who are very fundamentally sound, good shooters, good free throw shooters, etc.  Boy, that sure sounds a lot like the majority of the few white kids that are able to play college ball..

As I really think through the issue it comes down to this, in my mind.  How important is winning?   Personally, it's in my blood.  During the hoops season I live sleep and eat it.  I can talk and think about MU hoops at any moment in the day, and I assume many here feel the same way.  So do I want anyone to screw around with anything that might for an instant put a damper on Buzz's ability to keep the program on the path he has it?   NO, and I wrote this post in some dream state that maybe just maybe it could make some of the right people reconsider what effects they may or may not be having on Buzz's mental state / ability to be successful.  At the end of the day I have so much respect for Buzz and what he has done for our school and how he treats and his process of developing young men he has recruited (both on and off the court) that I firmly believe that no changes need to be made.  He has such the perfect combination of drive to be the absolute best hoops program in the country while also preparing and molding young adults into the best people he can it has given me even more pride in my Alma mater.  If you feel that Buzz's bosses need to be worried about more bad press or players getting in trouble then yes "restrictions" or "rules" should be put in place.  I just am not there and think it could lead to a big change in a short timeframe.  

Personally I think Buzz may be the perfect fit for our school. He has the most incredible gift of pleasing ALMOST everyone.  Time will tell, hopefully it is for a very very very long time.

Ners I Actually by and large agree with you. I don't really care about players incoming credentials and if they make academic all conference as long as they legitimately progress and graduate. But it is unfair to say that only racists or elitists feel otherwise. Its not wrong to think that athletic teams should be more academically like the student body at large - just a differing opinion.

Quote from: forgetful on May 23, 2012, 10:59:42 PM
Academic All-American is a 3.3.  Academic all conference is usually a 3.0.  

Ok, thanks. I got the 3.5 off a guess and a not very reliable site. So that would tone down my argument, but still, there are plenty of people that aren't at those levels that are successful.

If all our players are hanging out in the 2.7 range, I'd say that's far from the minimum. There is a pretty wide gap between 2.0 and 3.0. As long as they are graduating and making use of their degree if they don't play professionally, I'm happy. Fulce wasn't academic All-Conference I believe, but based on the CNN article he is using his degree to further his future. That's all I ask for from the players. If they gain those honors great, but I won't look down on them for not reaching that level if they still graduate.

Also, when was the last time that we had someone suspended due to academic problems? Blackledge? Sure we may have a player now that is struggling, but to have one every few years is hardly an epidemic. The all-mighty UW had two of them in one season a few years ago.

Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on May 24, 2012, 05:42:37 AM
But it is unfair to say that only racists or elitists feel otherwise. Its not wrong to think that athletic teams should be more academically like the student body at large - just a differing opinion.

+1

In my mind if Buzz's guys had stayed out of trouble and out of the headlines, this discussion at the administrative level would not be happening.  They let Buzz down.

What MU, Buzz and others ultimately decide to do is anyone's guess.  If the direction is to get stronger academically on the recruiting side, my faith in MU and Buzz to field a solid team is high.  If Buzz feels he can only win with kids at a lower academic benchmark this would surprise me, but if he were to leave there are other coaches that can make it happen at MU.  Too many resources to not succeed here.

I think taking the underclassmen out of Humphrey is absurd. The schools Buzz is recruiting against have an advantage already when it comes to apartments for athletes. Now you're going to downgrade that by putting them in a dorm room? If this is a response to the incidents last year, those could happened anywhere. And they can leave any building to go to the club. It's a ridiculous decision.

That said, ND has athletes in dorms...

Quote from: MUfan12 on May 24, 2012, 10:12:09 AM
I think taking the underclassmen out of Humphrey is absurd. The schools Buzz is recruiting against have an advantage already when it comes to apartments for athletes. Now you're going to downgrade that by putting them in a dorm room? If this is a response to the incidents last year, those could happened anywhere. And they can leave any building to go to the club. It's a ridiculous decision.

That said, ND has athletes in dorms...

Is any of this true or more internet rumors here?

Hoopaloop:  Here is the origin on this thread

Quote from: chren21 on May 23, 2012, 04:59:00 AM
2 very specific items I heard besides the GPA standards.  Hoops players will not be able to live in Humphrey until at least their junior year.  There will be some sort of board that will vote on potential borderline recruits including any junior college possibilities.  How will buzz react to different standards being put on Junior college players when he went to a JC?

Quote from: Hoopaloop on May 24, 2012, 10:07:10 AM
+1

In my mind if Buzz's guys had stayed out of trouble and out of the headlines, this discussion at the administrative level would not be happening.  They let Buzz down.

What MU, Buzz and others ultimately decide to do is anyone's guess.  If the direction is to get stronger academically on the recruiting side, my faith in MU and Buzz to field a solid team is high.  If Buzz feels he can only win with kids at a lower academic benchmark this would surprise me, but if he were to leave there are other coaches that can make it happen at MU.  Too many resources to not succeed here.

My goodness are we in the assumption making mode.

First, you have no idea if the players "being in the headlines" were the origins for this change.

Second, you have no idea if the change in academic standards is occurring.

Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on May 24, 2012, 05:42:37 AM
But it is unfair to say that only racists or elitists feel otherwise. Its not wrong to think that athletic teams should be more academically like the student body at large - just a differing opinion.

Bolded part definitely a good/fair point...however on the other, I do feel that when the basketball team is very unlike the student body at large - (90+% African American, and most* of whom come from single parent households, who live somewhere between the poverty line and middle class, come from poor public school systems, and many of whom will be the first college graduate in their family) - that it is unfair to expect them to be more academically like the student body at large...not to mention the enormous time commitment they put into basketball..

Quote from: Hoopaloop on May 24, 2012, 10:07:10 AM
+1

In my mind if Buzz's guys had stayed out of trouble and out of the headlines, this discussion at the administrative level would not be happening.  They let Buzz down.

What MU, Buzz and others ultimately decide to do is anyone's guess.  If the direction is to get stronger academically on the recruiting side, my faith in MU and Buzz to field a solid team is high.  If Buzz feels he can only win with kids at a lower academic benchmark this would surprise me, but if he were to leave there are other coaches that can make it happen at MU.  Too many resources to not succeed here.

So in your opinion, raising academic standards is likely to correlate to kids staying out of trouble (not going to bars, clubs, drinking, or getting into an occasional altercation)?  Do  "smart" kids not drink, go to bars, get into a fight once in their college career?  As for your rebuttal on the sex assault charges - let's remember no charges were filed, the player and girl had a previous sexual relationship, and the sex started as consensual...so quite a gray area with regard to something becoming rape/sex assault.

Quote from: Hoopaloop on May 24, 2012, 10:07:10 AM
+1

In my mind if Buzz's guys had stayed out of trouble and out of the headlines, this discussion at the administrative level would not be happening. 

So you laugh at people with sources and call them names, Then you sum up the situation with "In my mind..." LOL. Sorry, but the "mind" you put on display here on a regular basis won't be enough to carry the day

Quote from: Ners on May 24, 2012, 11:27:37 AM
Bolded part definitely a good/fair point...however on the other, I do feel that when the basketball team is very unlike the student body at large - (90+% African American, and most* of whom come from single parent households, who live somewhere between the poverty line and middle class, come from poor public school systems, and many of whom will be the first college graduate in their family) - that it is unfair to expect them to be more academically like the student body at large...not to mention the enormous time commitment they put into basketball..

Without wading into the socio-economic mess that this thread has devolved into (do most MU players really come from poor, single-parent households and lousy public school systems?) ... it would be remiss not to mention that while these kids do make an enormous time commitment to hoops, they also have huge academic advantages - personal tutors, private study facilities, access to data and technologies, etc. - that the average student does not. So, while it's totally accurate to say there are challenges, it's also fair to say there are special benefits as well to level the playing field.

Quote from: Pakuni on May 24, 2012, 11:38:05 AM
Without wading into the socio-economic mess that this thread has devolved into (do most MU players really come from poor, single-parent households and lousy public school systems?) ... it would be remiss not to mention that while these kids do make an enormous time commitment to hoops, they also have huge academic advantages - personal tutors, private study facilities, access to data and technologies, etc. - that the average student does not. So, while it's totally accurate to say there are challenges, it's also fair to say there are special benefits as well to level the playing field.

Absolutely fair - the special benefits with tutors, etc., needs to be mentioned.  However, if you look at the time away from school/class, the amount of practice time, strength and conditioning, etc. - it is very realistic to say these kids put in about 40 hours per week of time to their basketball...between games, travel, practice, etc - so therefore the special benefits are necessary.

As for the composition of MU's basketball team and their background...hard to quantify....but believe 90% of the kids fall into at least 1 of the categories I mentioned: single parent household, living between poverty line and middle class, attended public school in an urban environment, would be first in family to get college degree, etc.

At the end of the day, MU's players have generally represented MU very well, and to expect our kids to NEVER get into any kind of trouble is ridiculous...given they are 18-22 year old men...and like most in that age group...this is a time in life where many do get into a little trouble..

Quote from: Ners on May 24, 2012, 12:06:19 PM
...given they are 18-22 year old men...and like most in that age group...this is a time in life where many do get into a little trouble..

I think every person in the world would agree with this.

The debate come over everybody's definition of "little trouble".

Sometimes, boys will be boys, and you just make them run in practice. Sometimes it's more serious. The line is not the same for everybody, and some bad press from high profile programs has blurred the line in the nation's conscience.

You don't want to be SMU, but you also don't want to handcuff these guys.

I think sexual assault is a good place to draw a line.  However the player wasn't convicted but we get another episode yeah I think they'd have to tighten up (curfew for guys, etc. think Williams is banking on increased grades taking care of I guess our "systemic problem".)   

Stuff like this happens at Michigan State, ND, etc.   Except those places stood behind their AD's, then again the guy who hired the AD was still there. (and spare me the gen counsel stuff, C-ham had been gone 3 years if the new gen councel can review policies and change them they should be held accountable.)

Quote from: Stone Cold on May 24, 2012, 12:28:38 PM
I think sexual assault is a good place to draw a line.  However the player wasn't convicted but we get another episode yeah I think they'd have to tighten up (curfew for guys, etc. think Williams is banking on increased grades taking care of I guess our "systemic problem".)  

Stuff like this happens at Michigan State, ND, etc.   Except those places stood behind their AD's, then again the guy who hired the AD was still there. (and spare me the gen counsel stuff, C-ham had been gone 3 years if the new gen councel can review policies and change them they should be held accountable.)

Yea, I think the cumulative effect comes into play as well. Small stuff can add up over time.

Like, if your varsity football team is consistently getting into altercations at bar-time. It might not technically be illegal, and it might not even make the paper. But, if I'm the coach, I try to get that behavior under control because it's not magically going to go away or get better.

Quote from: 2002MUalum on May 24, 2012, 01:45:30 PM
Yea, I think the cumulative effect comes into play as well. Small stuff can add up over time.

Like, if your varsity football team is consistently getting into altercations at bar-time. It might not technically be illegal, and it might not even make the paper. But, if I'm the coach, I try to get that behavior under control because it's not magically going to go away or get better.

Key words bolded - player control is more the coaches responsibility than it is the athletic directors or BOT...yet a coach cannot be with their players 100% of the time.  The real measure should be, is the athlete population at MU getting in trouble at a greater rate than the rest of the student body...or if you want to dissect it further to basketball, does the basketball team get in more trouble than the general student body?  What is the incidence of fights among general student body?  Underage drinking?  Sexual assault allegations, etc.  If after all this administration and A.D., want the athletes (basketball team) to academically perform more like the general student body - shouldn't they too then be measured against the same conduct standards?  Pretty sure this would allow 90% of the basketball team to drink every weekend, etc.

Quote from: chren21 on May 24, 2012, 05:26:09 AM
As I really think through the issue it comes down to this, in my mind.  How important is winning?   Personally, it's in my blood.  During the hoops season I live sleep and eat it.  I can talk and think about MU hoops at any moment in the day, and I assume many here feel the same way.  So do I want anyone to screw around with anything that might for an instant put a damper on Buzz's ability to keep the program on the path he has it?   NO, and I wrote this post in some dream state that maybe just maybe it could make some of the right people reconsider what effects they may or may not be having on Buzz's mental state / ability to be successful.  At the end of the day I have so much respect for Buzz and what he has done for our school and how he treats and his process of developing young men he has recruited (both on and off the court) that I firmly believe that no changes need to be made.  He has such the perfect combination of drive to be the absolute best hoops program in the country while also preparing and molding young adults into the best people he can it has given me even more pride in my Alma mater.  If you feel that Buzz's bosses need to be worried about more bad press or players getting in trouble then yes "restrictions" or "rules" should be put in place.  I just am not there and think it could lead to a big change in a short timeframe.  

Personally I think Buzz may be the perfect fit for our school. He has the most incredible gift of pleasing ALMOST everyone.  Time will tell, hopefully it is for a very very very long time.

other than 2 sexual assault incidents, one major bar fight and an assault charge...

OK - I am not coming down on buzz, but take the blinders off...

Quote from: Ners on May 24, 2012, 06:46:04 PM
Key words bolded - player control is more the coaches responsibility than it is the athletic directors or BOT...yet a coach cannot be with their players 100% of the time.  The real measure should be, is the athlete population at MU getting in trouble at a greater rate than the rest of the student body...or if you want to dissect it further to basketball, does the basketball team get in more trouble than the general student body?  What is the incidence of fights among general student body?  Underage drinking?  Sexual assault allegations, etc.  If after all this administration and A.D., want the athletes (basketball team) to academically perform more like the general student body - shouldn't they too then be measured against the same conduct standards?  Pretty sure this would allow 90% of the basketball team to drink every weekend, etc.

I know where you are coming from...

But, when something goes "wrong" with a basketball player, and it comes out in the paper, is MU supposed to release an official statement saying "Other kids are doing it too?"

Quote from: madtownwarrior on May 24, 2012, 08:18:25 PM

other than 2 sexual assault incidents allegations, one major bar fight (depending on who you believe, the video sure didn't signal a major bar fight) and an assault charge...

OK - I am not coming down on buzz, but take the blinders off...

You are looking at things from the most negative view of Marquette and I took the view of wearing Blue and Gold glasses. The truth is in the middle I'm sure. If anything close to the worst case scenario rumors of that bar fight happened, no way a certain player is not walking out in cuffs, no matter his supposed celeb status. Of the two sexual assault allegations and bar fight, the only citations were for being in a bar underage (yes I fully understand that it may have been difficult to move forward on the sexual assault allegations). Those are the facts we have to work with. Very few people know what else happened beyond that. So you may tell us to take the MU blinders off, but that doesn't mean you don't have another form of blinders on.

Quote from: Lennys Tap on May 24, 2012, 11:30:58 AM
So you laugh at people with sources and call them names, Then you sum up the situation with "In my mind..." LOL. Sorry, but the "mind" you put on display here on a regular basis won't be enough to carry the day

This is why I said it is my opinion and didn't conjure up sources (real or imagined) or blame the impending collapse of MU basketball on Pilarz and Williams like you and others have.  We are still allowed to have opinions here, yes?

Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on May 24, 2012, 10:51:34 AM

My goodness are we in the assumption making mode.

First, you have no idea if the players "being in the headlines" were the origins for this change.

Second, you have no idea if the change in academic standards is occurring.

Yes, that is why I said in my mind.  It is my opinion.

Also correct, I have no idea if the academic changes are occurring which is why I said "IF the direction is to get stronger". 

Clear as day that these were opinions only.  We agree   :D

Quote from: Ners on May 24, 2012, 11:30:45 AM
So in your opinion, raising academic standards is likely to correlate to kids staying out of trouble (not going to bars, clubs, drinking, or getting into an occasional altercation)?  Do  "smart" kids not drink, go to bars, get into a fight once in their college career?  As for your rebuttal on the sex assault charges - let's remember no charges were filed, the player and girl had a previous sexual relationship, and the sex started as consensual...so quite a gray area with regard to something becoming rape/sex assault.

Smart kids do drink, do drugs, some do beat their girlfriends and generally do things that kids who are not smart do.   

My statement pertained to the bad headlines the team generated and now the potential changes that the administration may put in place (rumored here).  Some here believe the rumored changes are unnecessary and reactionary.  Others believe those changes will keep MU out of the headlines in the future.  None of us know what will happen, but in my opinion if the rumored changes do happen it because of the headlines generated.  If those headlines were not generated, I don't think the steps that are rumored to be happening would be happening. You are free to disagree, but I would like to hear why you think these rumored changes are happening if not for the bad press.  Whether or not recruiting smarter kids, more responsible kids, suburban kids, traditional kids, religious kids, whatever, none of us know what will happen or change.  That doesn't change my opinion that the bad press MU got has the BOT, the administration, and some alumni looking for changes.

The sex may have been consensual.  Vander may not have been called Orange.  Vander may not have assaulted the kid.  Etc, etc.  Problem is that they led to bad coverage for MU and MU doesn't like that.  DePaul has a huge reach in their ability to frame our school in a bad light.

Perhaps this is one of the situations where the MPD under-reported things

Quote from: madtownwarrior on May 24, 2012, 08:18:25 PM

other than 2 sexual assault incidents, one major bar fight and an assault charge...

OK - I am not coming down on buzz, but take the blinders off...

What major bar fight was anyone on the team involved it?  Is that you Big Unit?  Mr. Michaels?