MUScoop
MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: Niv Berkowitz on March 06, 2012, 02:44:48 PM
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Wade played two years and won conference POY. Crowder did the same.
Wade lost in round 1 his first year of the NCAA. Crowder went to the sweet 16.
Wade won CUSA POY. Crowder won the BEast POY...FWIW a much tougher confernce/achievement.
That said, what say you?
NOTE - By "Combination of 2/3 I'm talking about MU losing the Big East but making the Sweet 16; losing the Big East and making the Final Four...something along those lines.
My bad for not mentioning First Team AA.
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Big East Player of the Year is saying a lot.
If he would have made or makes first team All-American somewhere, I'd recommend putting him up there.
If he leads us to a Final Four or BE Championship, put him up there.
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C'mon dude. You're kidding, right?
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Wade was a consensus all-American. Jae will not be.
It could be argued that Wade was the most talented player ever to wear a Marquette uniform. Jae would not be in that conversation.
Retired "jerseys" need to stand the test of time. I think once his career is in the rear view mirror for a few seasons, we will not view him in the same class as those who are hanging in the rafters.
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Jae has been a tremendous player for Marquette but I don't feel he deserves to have his number retired. Personally, I like the idea of honoring players/jerseys but only retiring a select few numbers (probably too late for this at MU). I'd love to see names and numbers for Jae, Wes, Jerel, DJ, Lazar, DJO, Butler, Novak, Diener, etc honored at The BC in some way, but I don't feel any of them are worthy of number retirement.
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Combination of 2 and 3?!?
A Sweet 16 AND a Final 4?!?
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Add a poll option for earning first team All-American. I think that would do it.
Otherwise, no.
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Avenue Commons guaranteed Jae to be drafted in the first round of the NBA draft this year, that would probably warrant a banner. He seems to have unparalleled insider information.
http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=31094.msg365391#msg365391 (http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=31094.msg365391#msg365391)
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In my opinion this will largely be driven by his success in the NBA.... if Wade was a flop in the League, I think it would have taken him a bit to get up there.
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There are several numbers in our rafters that shouldn't be. Doc Rivers, for one. Tatum probably doesn't belong either. Wade should've had to wait as well. Crowder? C'mon! Not even close. He'd be about 20th in line. Even DJO has had a better MU career. One award does not a career make.
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There are several numbers in our rafters that shouldn't be. Doc Rivers, for one.
Really?
Doc was a highly decorated player while at MU. Rivers put together arguably the best freshman season in Marquette history. At the time of his induction into the MU HOF he held freshman records for scoring, scoring average, field-goals made, field-goals percentage and steals. Rivers ranks among the school leaders in steals and assists. Rivers was a first team Converse All-American in 1982 and was an honorable mention Associated Press and United Press International All-American in 1983.
Professional accomplishments: Drafted in the second round of the 1983 NBA Draft by the Atlanta Hawks, Rivers averaged 10.9 points, 5.7 assists and 3.0 rebounds over his 13-year playing career.
Yeah, He was such a bum. TEAR DOWN THAT BANNER!!
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Really?
Doc was a highly decorated player while at MU. Rivers put together arguably the best freshman season in Marquette history. At the time of his induction into the MU HOF he held freshman records for scoring, scoring average, field-goals made, field-goals percentage and steals. Rivers ranks among the school leaders in steals and assists. Rivers was a first team Converse All-American in 1982 and was an honorable mention Associated Press and United Press International All-American in 1983.
Professional accomplishments: Drafted in the second round of the 1983 NBA Draft by the Atlanta Hawks, Rivers averaged 10.9 points, 5.7 assists and 3.0 rebounds over his 13-year playing career.
Yeah, He was such a bum. TEAR DOWN THAT BANNER!!
Pro accomplishments shouldn't have much, if anything, to do with getting a number retired. I wish MU had certain criteria to have numbers retired like UNC does, and then honored other guys in a different manner.
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I wish MU had certain criteria to have numbers retired like UNC does, and then honored other guys in a different manner.
This.
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I'm coming up with 32.333% - repeating, of course - chance of it happening.
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Really?
Doc was a highly decorated player while at MU. Rivers put together arguably the best freshman season in Marquette history. At the time of his induction into the MU HOF he held freshman records for scoring, scoring average, field-goals made, field-goals percentage and steals. Rivers ranks among the school leaders in steals and assists. Rivers was a first team Converse All-American in 1982 and was an honorable mention Associated Press and United Press International All-American in 1983.
Professional accomplishments: Drafted in the second round of the 1983 NBA Draft by the Atlanta Hawks, Rivers averaged 10.9 points, 5.7 assists and 3.0 rebounds over his 13-year playing career.
Yeah, He was such a bum. TEAR DOWN THAT BANNER!!
Overreact much? There is no way he deserves to be in the rafters. If anything, his career at Marquette was a disappointment. I could give two licks about what he did in the NBA.
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Overreact much? There is no way he deserves to be in the rafters. If anything, his career at Marquette was a disappointment. I could give two licks about what he did in the NBA.
So what criteria should MU use to determine what jerseys get retired?
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So what criteria should MU use to determine what jerseys get retired?
North Carolina requires you to win the Wooden Award to have your jersey retired. Obviously we're not on that level, but it's kind of neat to have a firm set of criteria.
First team All American with at least 2 years played wouldn't be a bad qualifier.
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Overreact much? There is no way he deserves to be in the rafters. If anything, his career at Marquette was a disappointment. I could give two licks about what he did in the NBA.
On the topic of licks...
Tell me how you feel about the administrators at Springs Valley (IN) H.S. They didn't just hang a banner, they named the street after their most famous alum, Larry Bird. He didn't even win a state championship for them.
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We used to have a requirement of a diploma. Let's start with that.
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So what criteria should MU use to determine what jerseys get retired?
Consensus 1st Team All-American
#3 Dwyane Wade
#14 Dean Meminger
#15 Butch Lee
#22 Jim Chones
Speaking of Chones, why isn't his #22 in the rafters? He earned his degree a few years ago. Was that what was preventing it sooner?
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On the topic of licks...
Tell me how you feel about the administrators at Springs Valley (IN) H.S. They didn't just hang a banner, they named the street after their most famous alum, Larry Bird. He didn't even win a state championship for them.
The high school administrators name the streets in French Lick, Indiana? I don't think so. The town did that and rightfully so!
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Pro accomplishments shouldn't have much, if anything, to do with getting a number retired. I wish MU had certain criteria to have numbers retired like UNC does, and then honored other guys in a different manner.
In a perfect world, pro accomplishments shouldn't have anything to do with it...but it does. We're all human.
If D Wade was a 15 and 7 guy, would they have put that number up there ASAP? No chance. I see both sides and I don't know what's really right or wrong. Recruiting/business-wise, it made sense to get Wade's name up there and striking while the fire was red-hot.
On the other hand, as a Jesuit institution, should that have mattered and the school allowed some time to go by before putting him up there? In addition to how soon they put Wade up there, he wasn't a four-year player either and didn't have his degree yet. You could say Wade is the reason we are having this poll/discussion. It definitely got me thinking.
I think it should mostly be based on college and the type of legacy you left behind. Nobody talks about McNeal going up there and he's the all-time leading scorer.
Personally, I don't think Jae should go up there unless the team goes to the Final Four and even then I'd have to be swayed. In addition, we all have to wait and see how he plays in the tourney. This team is more of a 1-2 punch monster w/him and DJO than we were with Wade.
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Consensus 1st Team All-American
#3 Dwyane Wade
#14 Dean Meminger
#15 Butch Lee
#22 Jim Chones
Speaking of Chones, why isn't his #22 in the rafters? He earned his degree a few years ago. Was that what was preventing it sooner?
Well he left for the pros...in the MIDDLE of the season. And while it had the blessings of his coach, it should impact how he is honored by his University.
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I feel retiring numbers should have a lot to do with team success, since that is what matters in this sport. IF we get to the Final Four and IF Jae is the reason for the run in the tourney, I don't know how you can leave off the BEast POY and best player on one of the top 4 MU teams in the program's history. Carrying your team to a Final Four would be a huge deal. I wouldn't have hung Wade's jersey without that run. A Final Four run is a once in a decade type of feat and Jae could be remembered as a once in a decade type player if he leads us to the promise land. Someone will be given legend status when students look back 20 years from now.
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I'm already clarifying one thing I said...
It does matter a little what the player does post-school. Not necessarily professionaly hoops-wise, but how they carry themselves and represent the university after they get out of school. It all plays a role in making their legacy outlive their four-years of college.
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I started this thread on the other board because with a lot of luck, Jae could actually be pretty close....
I think to have a jersey (not a number) retired a player must have MINIMALLY been a first team all-american and/or lead his team to the final 4.
IF Jae is able to keep up this monster run and average like 25 and 10 with 4-5 steals per game and he leads us in winning the Big East tournament AND we get to the final 4, I think he definitely is in the conversation and if I had a vote, I would say YES!
Lot's of "what if's" in there, but it is fun to dream! ;D
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I'm coming up with 32.333% - repeating, of course - chance of it happening.
OK, I laughed when I read that...and I don't even know if you intended it to be a Leroy Jenkins (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zll_jAKvarw) reference (although I'm pretty sure you did). If so, well played. If not, click on the link (NSFW language).
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OK, I laughed when I read that...and I don't even know if you intended it to be a Leroy Jenkins (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LkCNJRfSZBU) reference (although I'm pretty sure you did). If so, well played. If not, click on the link (NSFW language).
Wow, thank you. That link just made my day.
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When honoring a player, why would a school not acknowledge accomplishments at the next level?
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OK, I laughed when I read that...and I don't even know if you intended it to be a Leroy Jenkins (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zll_jAKvarw) reference (although I'm pretty sure you did). If so, well played. If not, click on the link (NSFW language).
StillAWarrior FTW.
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1) Slim
2) None
I've loved the guy since he got here, but it's not close.
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Maybe he will get into the video
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I am thrilled Jae has been on the team, but he really only had one big year in an MU uni. He was the third-best player on the team in his other year. Doesn't seem like number-retired stuff.
Rivers is my all-time favorite MU player because he did well on the court, was a great guy and really represented the school well as kind of an ambassador. Plus, he hit my single favorite shot ever made by a Warrior. I also got to know him, so that certainly affects my opinion of him. Having said all that, he really did underachieve a little at Marquette. He came in as one of the highest-ranked recruits in school history yet never even averaged 15 points in any of his 3 seasons. I'm glad his number was retired because I like him so much, but he truly was a borderline case in my mind.
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I loved Doc, but he never had a year even close to what Jae did this year.
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Even if...
Jae makes a dominant Final Four run?
I say, if the memories are great and the sentiment sings sweetly, he could have his number up there.
An NCAA championship would be a LOCK: BE POY, NCAA title, and possibly an NCAA Tourney MVP.
Let a guy dream!!! :)
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If Jae LEADS us to the Final Four and has a borderline great career in the NBA there will be a lot of push to get him up there. If DJO hits it big in the NBA and MU goes to the Final Four he'll probably go up there too, which I'd be fine with.
Either way chances of either going up are not likely.
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Too many numbers already retired. Jane had great season but is not even close to being an all time great worthy of number retired. In my opinion only Wade is worthy in the post Al era. He was the greatest talent of all the greats.
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Put him up there -- and put Wes Matthews and Lazar Hayward up there too. All have been extremely instrumental in the rebirth of Marquette basketball.
These guys are real Warriors! Period. Plus think of the irritation Bucky Badger will feel everytime he comes to the Bradley Center and sees that Matthews jersey.
Incidentally, I'm not sure Marquette "retires" numbers per se. Both Bo Ellis and Doc Rivers wore "31". There was a big scrap a few years ago when someone came here and wore George Thompson's number.
As best I can tell, the only numbers that appear to be forever retired are "11" for Apollo 11, "77" for obvious reasons and maybe George Thompson's number, which I think is 24. Someone correct me if I am wrong!
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you can't put Wes up there until you put McNeal first. And I'd say Wes has no shot of getting up there, nor does he deserve that. And I love Wes Matthews. I'd also rather have Lazar up there before.
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Put him up there -- and put Wes Matthews and Lazar Hayward up there too. All have been extremely instrumental in the rebirth of Marquette basketball.
They played for Kevin O'Neill?
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Put him up there -- and put Wes Matthews and Lazar Hayward up there too. All have been extremely instrumental in the rebirth of Marquette basketball.
These guys are real Warriors! Period. Plus think of the irritation Bucky Badger will feel everytime he comes to the Bradley Center and sees that Matthews jersey.
I'm not sold on retiring or hanging the jerseys of Wes and Lazar, because what gets teams remembered is deep tournament runs and conference titles, and Wes and Lazar never got past the second round or finished higher than fourth in the league. Not to mention that for three of their four years, Wes and Lazar were at best, the third-best player on the team. I'm not sure you could hang Hayward or Matthews but not hang McNeal and James as well.
Similarly, why Lazar and not Jimmy Butler? To use an analogy from another sport, "It's called the Hall of Fame, not the Hall of Very Good." This is the same reason why we don't see Diener or Wardle or Novak in the rafters. It's not good enough to be the best player on your current team because if that were the sole criteria, we'd be retiring jerseys every Senior night.
Incidentally, I'm not sure Marquette "retires" numbers per se. Both Bo Ellis and Doc Rivers wore "31". There was a big scrap a few years ago when someone came here and wore George Thompson's number.
Oddly enough, it was Lazar Hayward, who switched to 32 shortly afterwards.
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Put him up there -- and put Wes Matthews and Lazar Hayward up there too. All have been extremely instrumental in the rebirth of Marquette basketball.
Oh for goodness sakes no. Not exactly sure how they participated in a "rebirth" of MU basketball when we have been to a Final Four in the last decade before either of them arrived. And correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't both Wes and Lazar each have only two NCAA tournament victories - the first rounders against Kentucky and Utah State?
Very good players...solid representatives of the University. But amongst the all-time greats? Nope.
Too many numbers already retired. Jane had great season but is not even close to being an all time great worthy of number retired. In my opinion only Wade is worthy in the post Al era. He was the greatest talent of all the greats.
This is pretty much where I stand too. Honestly, Meminger, Lee and Wade were the only consensus all Americans. Then I would add Bo Ellis and (possibly) George Thompson just because of the career impacts they had on the program...even after their careers ended. And "77" for Al.
But that's it.
Then I would have some sort of recognition banner for all All-Americans. You can use this list then:
http://wiki.muscoop.com/doku.php/men_s_basketball/all-americans
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This is pretty much where I stand too. Honestly, Meminger, Lee and Wade were the only consensus all Americans. Then I would add Bo Ellis and (possibly) George Thompson just because of the career impacts they had on the program...even after their careers ended. And "77" for Al.
But that's it.
Then I would have some sort of recognition banner for all All-Americans. You can use this list then:
http://wiki.muscoop.com/doku.php/men_s_basketball/all-americans
I agree with this. 1st team consensus All-American would be a great standard for having your number retired (but I agree to include Brute Force and Bo). I'm curious, though, why Chones isn't included on that list? He was 1st team AP All-American.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/all_america.html (http://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/all_america.html)
So, that would remove Doc, Tatum, Lucas, and Kojis. I know that would never happen and I don't think it should, but that seems reasonable.
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Put him up there -- and put Wes Matthews and Lazar Hayward up there too. All have been extremely instrumental in the rebirth of Marquette basketball.
These guys are real Warriors! Period. Plus think of the irritation Bucky Badger will feel everytime he comes to the Bradley Center and sees that Matthews jersey.
Incidentally, I'm not sure Marquette "retires" numbers per se. Both Bo Ellis and Doc Rivers wore "31". There was a big scrap a few years ago when someone came here and wore George Thompson's number.
As best I can tell, the only numbers that appear to be forever retired are "11" for Apollo 11, "77" for obvious reasons and maybe George Thompson's number, which I think is 24. Someone correct me if I am wrong!
Marquette retired numbers until that idiot Crean f*cked with George and basically did irreparable damage to our basketball heritage. What a complete unadulterated dick sack.
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Two pages, and no one has figured out that this is a trick question??? I'm beginning to lose faith in my fellow MU alums.
The correct answer is: Jae's jersey will never hang in the BC. Jae's jersey will hang in The Buzz.
("The Buzz," of course, being the arena MU opens in 2016 following a 2012 NCAA Championship coupled with condemning of the BC following the Bucks' move to Las Vegas in 2014.)
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Yeah, but by that time Buzz will be coachin' in Austin, aina?
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Yeah, but by that Buzz will be coachin' in Austin, aina?
Nah... he'll be retired from coaching and in the booth with Dick Enberg by that time.
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Chones, Whitehead and Tony Smith are at the head of my line before we even consider Crowder.
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Marquette retired numbers until that idiot Crean f*cked with George and basically did irreparable damage to our basketball heritage. What a complete unadulterated dick sack.
I can't wait until he starts that crap at IU.
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I think it's odd how MU recycles it's numbers so quickly... like there aren't enough numbers on the numberline or something. I think it just goes to show that they aren't interested in retiring these recent players' jerseys unless they have the potential for it.
Dominic James' #1 was immediately replaced by DJO
Maurice Acker's #2 replaced by Vander Blue (not that Acker was going to be retired anyway, but...)
Wes Matthews' #23 immediately replaced by Dwight Buyucks
Lazar's #32 immediately replaced by Jae
Chris Grimm's #33 immediately replaced by JFB ::)
Other numbers get used frequently from year to year with this team, too (#10, #21)
Interesting to note: No player has worn Travis Diener's #34 since he left. No player has worn Steve Novak's #20 since he left. It's almost like they're saving those numbers just in case they want to retire them someday soon.
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Also, no player has worn Jerel McNeal's (MU's all-time leader in points and steals) #22.
Just sayin.
Somewhere Jamail Jones Mom & Dad are suddenly very, very sad.
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Somewhere Jamail Jones Mom & Dad are suddenly very, very sad.
Oh darn. Forgot about him. ::)
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d
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Interesting to note: No player has worn Travis Diener's #34 since he left. No player has worn Steve Novak's #20 since he left. It's almost like they're saving those numbers just in case they want to retire them someday soon.
Roseboro was given #34 but obviously never played for MU.
#20 was retired for Maurice Lucas while Novak was still wearing it. Hence, no one has worn it since.