I know we still have 2 games to go. But where does this regular season rank in the Marquette record books? Not just talking about records, but keeping in mind strength of opponents, national rankings, prestige, media attention, etc.
I know the 1970s are hard to compete with. 2003 was a great year with the Final Four, but how do you think we stack up?
I was born in 1977, so I don't really remember the 1970s. I'm sure some of those years would rate higher, but I'll leave that to people that actually saw them. I'd rank this right now as #2, but it moves to #1 if they beat Cincy and GT.
1) 2003 -- Remarkably similar to this year, after a couple questionable losses (ECU and Dayton), Marquette won 15/16 with their only loss against rival Louisville. It remains tops for two reasons, first, we finished it out (haven't done that...yet), and second, I was going to MU at the time.
2) 2012 -- Had a weak spell in the middle of the year, but have rebounded well. Could finish winning 14/15, very similar to 2003. The difference is that the Big East is tougher and we don't have any bad losses (cough, ECU, cough). Win two more and it slips just ahead of 2003.
Honorable mention 2009 -- If James doesn't go down, what might have been. I think we finish 26-5, the same record we're hoping for this year, and would have had a 2/3 seed. At the time, I hoped Buzz could find a way to rebuild after watching the Three Amigos go. Now, I'm confident he hasn't just rebuilt, but he's improved on what we had then.
High in regards to entertainment and meeting preseason expectations. As for the big picture, not all that high in my mind. We are top ten for nearly a decade and those teams peformed night in and night out. Plus we were everyone's biggest game back then.
Really hard to rank. Was it 71 that we were undefeated and lost round one in the tournament? Regular season was great success, but with high expectations to go far in the tournament that season sucked. In '77 our regular season "sucked" but made the tournament by the skin of our teeth. The rest is history. Now that I am an old fart the past ten years have been "fun". This season has been really fun with all those come from behind heart stoppers. So it ranks up there.
71 and 76 were great regular season teams. I think what makes the Al years special was we always had a target on our back. It is similar to the top programs today, everybody is up for UK or Duke and winning under that pressure is special.
The game on Friday reminded me of years past. Hostile environment, odds against us and we stood tall. Games like that make for special seasons. Thanks to Buzz the dance will make the game talked about for years to come.
1978, my freshman year, MU was 24-3 heading into the NCAA tourney. We were ranked in the top 5 the entire season. We had 4 returning starters from the championship team. As far as regular season's go, this had to be way up there!
So far ...
Statistically and comparative-talent-level-wise (in other words, talent compared to the norm of the era), this season ranks well behind several of the 70s.
Ranks behind 2003, too, using the eye test. We have a nice team this year with two very good players, but there is no equivalent to Wade or Jackson, and arguably no equivalent to Diener and sixth man Novak.
Ranks favorably (or well ahead of) any other seasons not mentioned above. And aesthetically, it has been very enjoyable. The playing style is exciting, and the same can be said of the come-from-behind nature of so many wins.
I started with "so far" because that's all we have to go on right now. To really be mentioned with several of the great seasons, they have to advance deep in the tourney.
Quote from: MU82 on February 26, 2012, 03:12:38 PMRanks behind 2003, too, using the eye test. We have a nice team this year with two very good players, but there is no equivalent to Wade or Jackson, and arguably no equivalent to Diener and sixth man Novak.
Hmm...really? As a two-man college combo, I think Jae and DJO are pretty comparable to any we've had in my lifetime. Wade was fantastic, but R-Jax never played in the NBA. I think both these guys will. And I think the way Blue's playing, he's as good as Diener was that year, albeit in different ways. Blue's a great defender and rebounder, plays within himself, and has become the first guy you want on the line in the last minute with a 1-point lead. No, he doesn't shoot that three or distribute as well, but Cadougan covers the distribution.
As far as a sixth man, Todd Mayo is actually averaging more ppg than Novak did as a freshman. He's not the sniper Novak was, but who is? He's definitely a better interior scorer. And no one on that team could score like Gardner down low, not even Jackson.
Not saying this year's team is definitely better, but I sure as hell would love to see those two teams take each other on, I think it'd be a great game!
In 1970 when I was a freshman, the Warriors were 26-3; in 1971: 28-1 (lost to Ohio State in the regionals, in 1973: 25-4. For senior year of 1974 they went 26-5 losing to David Thompson and NC State in the NCAA Finals. Golden years.
Two more consecutive wins and the Eagles reach that same great 74 record and with the BE Tournament and NCAA to follow, will go well beyond. The golden age returns.
As far as total regular season wins.
1971 26-0
1976 25-1
2002 24-5
2012 24-5
1976 was my favorite team.
Quote from: brewcity77 on February 26, 2012, 03:54:21 PM
Hmm...really? As a two-man college combo, I think Jae and DJO are pretty comparable to any we've had in my lifetime. Wade was fantastic, but R-Jax never played in the NBA. I think both these guys will. And I think the way Blue's playing, he's as good as Diener was that year, albeit in different ways. Blue's a great defender and rebounder, plays within himself, and has become the first guy you want on the line in the last minute with a 1-point lead. No, he doesn't shoot that three or distribute as well, but Cadougan covers the distribution.
As far as a sixth man, Todd Mayo is actually averaging more ppg than Novak did as a freshman. He's not the sniper Novak was, but who is? He's definitely a better interior scorer. And no one on that team could score like Gardner down low, not even Jackson.
Not saying this year's team is definitely better, but I sure as hell would love to see those two teams take each other on, I think it'd be a great game!
Respect you a lot for your many intelligent posts, brewcity, and I certainly respect Crowder and DJO, but I respectfully disagree with you on this one.
I'm gonna do a Marquette version of the Bulls here. The best team in the NBA would have been Michael Jordan and any 4 other guys ... and the best team in recent Marquette history would have been Dwyane Wade and any 4 other guys.
And when those four other guys were Diener, Jackson, Novak and Merritt, I'm choosing the 03 team.
If you're gonna put Blue on par with Diener because of his defense and his "playing within himself" -- which is coachspeak, and bad coachspeak at that -- then how can you possibly compare Gardner with Jackson, who was a far better all-around center?
Todd Mayo hasn't had more than one or two good games (and even that might be a stretch) for at least a month now. Novak, by this point of his freshman year, was becoming a lethal shooter; he went on to shoot 51 percent from 3-point range. By late February, you could look at Novak's trajectory and say: "He's gonna be huge in the tourney for us." Can you say the same looking at Mayo today?
During the nonconference season, the main advantage folks were giving this team over the Wade-Diener group was that this one had more depth. Injuries and other factors have eliminated that edge, if it ever existed.
I respect your opinions too much to think you actually believe this team is better than that one. Of course, we'll know for certain in a little more than a month!
Quote from: Goose on February 26, 2012, 01:45:13 PM
High in regards to entertainment and meeting preseason expectations. As for the big picture, not all that high in my mind. We are top ten for nearly a decade and those teams peformed night in and night out. Plus we were everyone's biggest game back then.
Agreed
MU 82
This team and season is better than the 03 season. They are real deal, deep and entertaining. I would love to watch these guys for three more years.
Agreed with Brew. Right now, in contention with '03 as best since '78-79, which is first year I saw MU play (December '78 Classic), would move to best regular-season in those 34 seasons with wins over UC and Gtown this week.
OK, to each his/her own.
FWIW, I loved the 03 season and I'm loving this one, too.
The 70's were better. Leaving out an entire decade, though, to this point in the season, I would rank this season better than 03. In 03, we were tearing up CUSA and were pretty sure we had something good but weren't positive. And IIRC, the most significant injury that year was to Karon Bradley. This year, we are tearing up the last great BEast season, with 163 inches and 555 lbs of injuries. The big thing that 03 has going for it is that MU had been away so long that it felt special. Since then, we have had a number of good seasons so this one feels good, but not giddy.
Love this team and love this season.
However, this will be an interesting thread to revisit if/when MU loses in the tournament.
For a lot of people, the tournament is the only measure of success, and if these guys don't make the elite 8, there will be a lot of hand ringing.
Quote from: MU82 on February 26, 2012, 10:21:42 PM
Respect you a lot for your many intelligent posts, brewcity, and I certainly respect Crowder and DJO, but I respectfully disagree with you on this one.
I'm gonna do a Marquette version of the Bulls here. The best team in the NBA would have been Michael Jordan and any 4 other guys ... and the best team in recent Marquette history would have been Dwyane Wade and any 4 other guys.
And when those four other guys were Diener, Jackson, Novak and Merritt, I'm choosing the 03 team.
If you're gonna put Blue on par with Diener because of his defense and his "playing within himself" -- which is coachspeak, and bad coachspeak at that -- then how can you possibly compare Gardner with Jackson, who was a far better all-around center?
Todd Mayo hasn't had more than one or two good games (and even that might be a stretch) for at least a month now. Novak, by this point of his freshman year, was becoming a lethal shooter; he went on to shoot 51 percent from 3-point range. By late February, you could look at Novak's trajectory and say: "He's gonna be huge in the tourney for us." Can you say the same looking at Mayo today?
During the nonconference season, the main advantage folks were giving this team over the Wade-Diener group was that this one had more depth. Injuries and other factors have eliminated that edge, if it ever existed.
I respect your opinions too much to think you actually believe this team is better than that one. Of course, we'll know for certain in a little more than a month!
Wade was undoubtedly the best player we've had, and the Jordan comparison is a fair one. But I do think that the level Crowder is at right now is the best we've seen since Wade, and that includes Jerel's All-American year. And as a collegiate player, DJO is a better second option (amazing to say DJO as second option) than anyone we've had in my lifetime. Better than R-Jax, better than Matthews or James, even better than Novak during Diener's senior year.
The next thing is separating Novak from the starting lineup. If it's Wade and 4 other guys (before we get to the bench), that 4th guy is Todd Townsend, who started all 33 games for us. So to compare the starting lineups after the first two, it becomes Merritt, Diener, and Townsend compared with Blue, Cadougan, and...umm...Jamil? Gardner? Otule? I'd leave Chris out, I guess we'll use Gardner since he currently has more starts.
Right now, I love Blue's game, and would probably compare his role to Merritt. While he's not a post, he's out there to add a bit of inside scoring, rebounding, and to play defense. I think Blue's playing some very smart basketball. Last year at this time, he was jacking up shots that he would frequently miss, trying to shoot his way out of his slump. This year, he's taking high percentage shots, rebounding up a storm, and has become money from the line (79.5% since 'Nova). Just like Blue, Merritt began to play his best down the stretch. Despite the 6-inch difference, they were fairly similar in terms of what they were doing at this point of the season. I'd call that a wash.
As a point, Junior can't score like TD, but I think he's a better distributor and floor general right now than Diener was as a sophomore. In addition, Junior is shooting a higher overall percentage than Diener was that year. Don't get me wrong, Diener had some monster games in the tournament -- we wouldn't have beaten Holy Cross or Pitt without him -- but I think that Junior's level of play in the regular season has been pretty comparable to Diener's.
And then to compare Townsend and Gardner. Gardner's a better scorer and rebounder, Townsend was probably a bit better defensively, but by this point of the season, he sort of just became the other guy on the floor.
Now we come to the bench, and the depth you talked about. Novak was the best bench scorer off either team, but he was strictly a three-point shooter. He didn't do any scoring inside, he barely rebounded the ball (especially for a guy at 6'10"), and he didn't help others get offense. He just stood there waiting for the ball. Is Mayo a better player as a freshman? Certainly not as a shooter, but in terms of defense, in terms of ability to get to the rim, in terms of rebounding, the answer is a resounding yes, and it's not even close. And after Novak, no one provided anything near what Jamil Wilson gives us. Even with our bench a bit depleted, I'd take Jamil over the rest, I'd even take Jamil's overall game over the specialist-only role that Novak played. As for the rest, I'd take DW, Mellow, and Anderson over Chapman and Bradley. I think they bring more diversity to the floor in terms of ability.
All in all it's a great question, and great discussion point. But in terms of depth I'd take this team, and I think that in terms of all-around game, guys like Mayo, Blue, and Gardner over (freshman) Novak, Merritt, and Townsend every single time.
Let's just hope this team can go 2 steps further in the NCAAs than that one did. And I'm not sure they're better, but I think other than the 2008-09 team when James was healthy, this is undoubtedly the best team we've had since 2003. Like you said, we'll have more answers in about a month ;D
Fair enough, brewcity. I disagree with a couple of your points, but it's splitting hairs. And given that I have very few hairs on my head to split anymore, I ain't gonna do it!
Quote from: MU82 on February 27, 2012, 09:30:02 AMFair enough, brewcity. I disagree with a couple of your points, but it's splitting hairs. And given that I have very few hairs on my head to split anymore, I ain't gonna do it!
Regardless, isn't it awesome just to be able to have this discussion? ;D
Agree, Brew City, it is great just to have this discussion. Also agree with bilsu, 1976 was not only a favorite, but probably the most talented MU team of all time.
That being said, however, this team is very special. Even though MU started out only 11 deep (now reduced to 10 or 9, depending on Gardner's health), this is probably the deepest team I can recall. They play extremely well together, and even the last player and/or freshman from the bench is very talented.
I really don't like comparisons which compare "our guys" from different teams or eras (with the inevitable result that an MU player who gave his all is found somehow lacking), but it is not far fetched to see the "last man" on this present team being a top player on other MU teams from just the last 10 years.
For a little perspective on where this team ranks, check out another thread "On the Lighter Side."
Bilsu
I agree with you...the 76 was probably my favorite team. I think actually better squad than the 77 team.
Quote from: Goose on February 27, 2012, 06:29:34 PM
Bilsu
I agree with you...the 76 was probably my favorite team. I think actually better squad than the 77 team.
That was a special team, that had all the pieces. Unfortunately, pre-NCAA seeding meant the #2 team played the #1 team in the Elite 8. Some of MU's best played that year.
Pish posh.
Wade and 4 other guys got us 0 NCAA wins in 2001-02.
R-JAX and 4 other guys got us to the Final Four the next year.
I can't help but wonder whether this team is really that good, or the conference is just really down this year. Probably some of both. But it's hard to make comparisons to '08-'09 (the year of James' injury) because the Big East was absolutely loaded that year. I'm just hoping we can finish strong and get DG back at some point, but I have my doubts.
Quote from: mu_hilltopper on February 28, 2012, 07:38:05 AM
Pish posh.
Wade and 4 other guys got us 0 NCAA wins in 2001-02.
R-JAX and 4 other guys got us to the Final Four the next year.
I actually thought that 01-02 team was really, really good. Blankson and Henry with Wade, Diener and Merritt. What a Disappointing loss in the tourney that year. Get past that game and I thought they had a real chance to make some noise.
Quote from: Goose on February 26, 2012, 01:45:13 PM
High in regards to entertainment and meeting preseason expectations. As for the big picture, not all that high in my mind. We are top ten for nearly a decade and those teams peformed night in and night out. Plus we were everyone's biggest game back then.
I think this team is exceeding preseason expectations, and agree with everything else you wrote.
What's amazing is that this team may actually finish with a two seed. That's a level that MU has not been since the 70's. I don't know if I'm ready to think of Marquette as being at that level.
One last point... as for the 2003-2012 comparisons, Jae Crowder is playing like one of the top five most valuable players in the nation. In 2003, DWade was playing like one of the top five most valuable players in the nation.
Quote from: frozena pizza on February 28, 2012, 08:26:11 AM
I can't help but wonder whether this team is really that good, or the conference is just really down this year. Probably some of both. But it's hard to make comparisons to '08-'09 (the year of James' injury) because the Big East was absolutely loaded that year. I'm just hoping we can finish strong and get DG back at some point, but I have my doubts.
It is a bit of both.
I was bullish on this squad early because I saw how the situation would unfold and it was clear to see that with Crowder, Odom, and a rounded cast there was no reason for this team not to be contending for the title. They very well could have if not for the toe stub early on so they are placing right where I expected.
As for the end all and be all of the NCAAs (as it is for some) people can hide behind the cliche of it being all about match-ups but this squad is clearly one of the 10 best in the nation and I'd certainly expect them to make it through a few games next month. Being done before St. Patrick's would be a major disappointment.
First, I confess that I tend to be cautious in my preseason prognostications. I thought that the Big East coaches were about right (6th) and when we lost Otule I feared it would be worse.
Turns out we are better than advertised and some in the Big East (UCONN, Pitt) aren't as good, but I never dreamed we could be a top 10 team without either of our centers. I worry that the lack of size/depth will cost us down the road - but I'm a worrier.
Seeing this team fall behind horrible teams like DePaul and many others this season has made it really hard to take a deep drink of that koolaid. Honestly, I haven't been able to do that until after seeing the West Virginia game and watch Jae totally soldier on with a depleted team.
I think the Big East is the worst it's been since we joined. In other years, I think we would have been between 4th and 6th place. Just my POV with Otule and Gardner out.
A healthy Gardner who can pop in for 15 mins a game and score 10 pts. along with our other players firing on all cylinders (sp?) makes us downright scary. Give us anybody in that situation and it's a serious game.
Quote from: 2002MUalum on February 27, 2012, 08:21:06 AM
Love this team and love this season.
However, this will be an interesting thread to revisit if/when MU loses in the tournament.
For a lot of people, the tournament is the only measure of success, and if these guys don't make the elite 8, there will be a lot of hand ringing.
THIS. IS. SO. TRUE.
I went with 2003 over this season but it is not complete yet. 2003 was a great season, conference championship, most amazing player I have seen at Marquette along with some young but wonderful mates along with him that made the season extremely special by the Final Four run. This team is ranked higher, will likely get a better seed. It's a great season this year and nothing will take away from that, but to put it over the 2003 season they would have to do something special with that seeding. I am not a post season or nothing guy, but to say this season is better than 2003 they have to equal what 2003 team accomplished. That seems fairly elementary to me.
1976 would be my ultimate choice. Better team than 77, but Indiana could not be stopped that year.