MUScoop
MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: tower912 on February 21, 2012, 08:58:13 PM
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As this season currently stands, which is a better coaching job by Buzz; 09-10 or 11-12. 09-10, MU had no height, no bench and was 2-5 in the Big East before getting hot. This year, Buzz has had to coach 3 different teams, has no height, and an only slightly deeper bench. At least this year, he has normal sized guards. But the 09-10 team had 6 guys who could shoot the 3 and beat their guy off of the dribble. Tough call, IMO it was 09-10.
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I do believe this year is a better coaching job. I would expect it to be for two reasons. First, Buzz has more expereince. Second, the team is made up of all of his recruits except for maybe Otule.
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On the face of it, I think wringing a 6 seed from the 09-10 bunch after losing 4 starters including 3 iconic ones who between them had the ball in their hand 90% of the time is more impressive than this season, so that's how I voted. But I love the way he has handled this team, too.
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On the face of it, I think wringing a 6 seed from the 09-10 bunch after losing 4 starters including 3 iconic ones who between them had the ball in their hand 90% of the time is more impressive than this season, so that's how I voted. But I love the way he has handled this team, too.
Iconic? Iconic! I think James, McNeal and Matthews just "jumped the shark." Iconic! Holy moly. Imagine having three "iconic" Players who never advanced past the second round.
Here's a newsflash for all of you...Jimmy Butler was better than any of those guys. So is DJO. So is Jae Crowder. All of them played together last season. Should we build a statue?
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Iconic? Iconic! I think James, McNeal and Matthews just "jumped the shark." Iconic! Holy moly. Imagine having three "iconic" Players who never advanced past the second round.
Here's a newsflash for all of you...Jimmy Butler was better than any of those guys. So is DJO. So is Jae Crowder. All of them played together last season. Should we build a statue?
They all played a ton of minutes for four years and won right out of the gate. Two tournaments were derailed by injury and another by a behind the backboard buzzer beater. Those guys put us back on the map after the two dreariest seasons in the past decade. They also helped to brand us as a place where athletic guards could flourish. It's not their fault they never had a halfway decent center or any bench help, both of which you need to advance in March. I doubt we'll see a core group play that many minutes together again. They are iconic in program history, not so much nationally. (I agree about Jimmy, DJO, & Jae, btw, but they only played one season together).
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Iconic? Iconic! I think James, McNeal and Matthews just "jumped the shark." Iconic! Holy moly. Imagine having three "iconic" Players who never advanced past the second round.
Here's a newsflash for all of you...Jimmy Butler was better than any of those guys. So is DJO. So is Jae Crowder. All of them played together last season. Should we build a statue?
So, let me guess: You don't have much respect for that class? I couldn't tell from the numerous prior posts you have put forth bashing Wes, Dominic and Jerel.
Well. At least you are always right.
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Iconic? Iconic! I think James, McNeal and Matthews just "jumped the shark." Iconic! Holy moly. Imagine having three "iconic" Players who never advanced past the second round.
Here's a newsflash for all of you...Jimmy Butler was better than any of those guys. So is DJO. So is Jae Crowder. All of them played together last season. Should we build a statue?
PRN, you sometimes truly dazzle me with your ability to string together words in a way that makes the post seem like the stupidest one I've ever read on all of the Internets.
As of right now, Jerel McNeal, Dominic James, and Wesley Matthews stand at #1, #4, and #9 on the all-time Marquette scoring list. Right there with names like Thompson, Lee, Smith, and Ellis. Seriously, there is no way on God's green earth you can consider the Three Amigos class to be anything but iconic. To date, it is probably the most productive recruiting class in Marquette's history. You may hate Crean, you may have bitterness toward his recruits (though considering how much they meant to MU, I can't conceive why), but don't try to diminish their accomplishments because they didn't make it past the first weekend. I think if we made a top-25 list of Marquette's all-time greats, they would all show up on it. That's pretty damned iconic.
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So, let me guess: You don't have much respect for that class? I couldn't tell from the numerous prior posts you have put forth bashing Wes, Dominic and Jerel.
Well. At least you are always right.
I've never bashed Matthews.
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PRN, you sometimes truly dazzle me with your ability to string together words in a way that makes the post seem like the stupidest one I've ever read on all of the Internets.
Of all the "internets" you read, would you say this Internet contains the most readily available information? Or is there another Internet I should be aware of? Should I go back and look at the World Wide Web for my Internet?
Are you dazzled?
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PRN, you sometimes truly dazzle me with your ability to string together words in a way that makes the post seem like the stupidest one I've ever read on all of the Internets.
As of right now, Jerel McNeal, Dominic James, and Wesley Matthews stand at #1, #4, and #9 on the all-time Marquette scoring list. Right there with names like Thompson, Lee, Smith, and Ellis. Seriously, there is no way on God's green earth you can consider the Three Amigos class to be anything but iconic. To date, it is probably the most productive recruiting class in Marquette's history. You may hate Crean, you may have bitterness toward his recruits (though considering how much they meant to MU, I can't conceive why), but don't try to diminish their accomplishments because they didn't make it past the first weekend. I think if we made a top-25 list of Marquette's all-time greats, they would all show up on it. That's pretty damned iconic.
Ditto! If you don't remember that class fondly and judge them totally based on two games they lost you've got Happiness Issues
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Iconic? Iconic! I think James, McNeal and Matthews just "jumped the shark." Iconic! Holy moly. Imagine having three "iconic" Players who never advanced past the second round.
Here's a newsflash for all of you...Jimmy Butler was better than any of those guys. So is DJO. So is Jae Crowder. All of them played together last season. Should we build a statue?
Humbly, that is just stupid.
And, if you truly believe that, why was last season such a unnatural carnal knowledgeing mess 90% of the time?
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Of all the "internets" you read, would you say this Internet contains the most readily available information? Or is there another Internet I should be aware of? Should I go back and look at the World Wide Web for my Internet?
Are you dazzled?
If you didn't pick up on my sarcasm there without teal, I really don't know what to say. Hardly the first time the term "all of the Internets" was used :-\
Would it have been better if I had used "teh Internets", would you have picked up on it then?
Welcome to the world of online communication :)
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Great question Tower. I think 09-10. This year is great and it shows some great signs that Buzz is the real deal. But I remember 09-10 really well and we weren't just short, we were one of the shortest teams in the NCAA. Furthermore, the Big East was one of the biggest conferences in the country. Also, the Big East was SO strong that year. At one point, I think they had 3 teams in the top 5. I think over half the league was in the top 25.
Forgetting about the state of the Big East in 09-10, as a fan, I was expecting a down year. I was ok with a down year. And Buzz over-delivered in a big way. That's my vote.
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Let's not let PRN sidetrack this interesting topic.
I have to say that I think the 09-10 season was much more of a shocker to me. I expected us to finish in the bottom four of the Big East, especially without Otule's size. I still don't understand how we won any games with two guards under 5'10 playing 30+ minutes.
This year we knew we would have two solid scoring options and some incoming talent. The injuries have hurt and the record is better, but the expectations coming in were much higher.
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Humbly, that is just stupid.
And, if you truly believe that, why was last season such a fracking mess 90% of the time?
Fracking mess 90% of the time? Really?
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09-10
Losing Maymon combined with platooning Acker, Cubillan as PG with Buycks over DJO at SG? We shouldn't have won any games that year except Buzz found a way and Jimmy Butler willed it to happen.
This year we're doing really well, but I think it's easier to coach a functioning offense when you have elite guards that're missing bigs. In 09-10 I'm not sure how we even got the ball across half court most of the time.
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Humbly, that is just stupid.
And, if you truly believe that, why was last season such a fracking mess 90% of the time?
I'll take a "mess 90% of the time" if it helps us advance past the second round of the tournament.
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If you didn't pick up on my sarcasm there without teal, I really don't know what to say. Hardly the first time the term "all of the Internets" was used :-\
Would it have been better if I had used "teh Internets", would you have picked up on it then?
Welcome to the world of online communication :)
Interwebs. He would have understood that.
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That year: lose your center Otule early and your power forward (sorry Jeronne, that is what you are) mid-season.
This year: lose your center Otule early and your power foward Gardner mid-season.
Similarities are striking. Very close call.
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Interwebs. He would have understood that.
The system of tubes.
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09-10
Losing Maymon combined with platooning Acker, Cubillan as PG with Buycks over DJO at SG? We shouldn't have won any games that year except Buzz found a way and Jimmy Butler willed it to happen.
This year we're doing really well, but I think it's easier to coach a functioning offense when you have elite guards that're missing bigs. In 09-10 I'm not sure how we even got the ball across half court most of the time.
I thought it was more Lazar than Jimmy.
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I'll take a "mess 90% of the time" if it helps us advance past the second round of the tournament.
So we could go 0-31, have a miraculous 5 wins in 5 days at MSG, and win 2 games in the NCAAs and it'd be a successful season? Because apparently to you, everything that ever happens in a player's four year career is defined by how far he gets in the NCAA tournament.
Which means, by your logic, that Dwight Buycks, Chris Otule, and Todd Townsend, all starters on teams that played deeper in the NCAA tournament than the Three Amigos ever did, are more iconic in Marquette's lengthy history than Dominic James, Jerel McNeal, and Wes Matthews. Wow (http://forum.kentuckianafirearms.com/images/smilies/crazy.gif)
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I thought it was more Lazar than Jimmy.
I guess you're right. Wasn't that the year where Jimmy kept hitting last-second shots to win games? I can't believe my memory is so foggy already :(
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The three amigos were iconic, in that they basically defined our program for 4 consecutive years. Whether or not you believe they were great individual players is, in a way, irrelevant. Nationally, Wes, Dominic and Jerel were synonymous with MU basketball.
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I guess you're right. Wasn't that the year where Jimmy kept hitting last-second shots to win games? I can't believe my memory is so foggy already :(
You both are correct. Lazar carried us, Jimmy put the nail in several coffins.
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So we could go 0-31, have a miraculous 5 wins in 5 days at MSG, and win 2 games in the NCAAs and it'd be a successful season?
0-31 and seven post season wins would arguably be the 2nd most historic team in Marquette history. It would likely make magazine covers and would be a team talked about year after year after year. So, yes. That would be a successful season. Maybe even "iconic."
You guys need to understand something. There is one "iconic" person in the history of Marquette basketball. His name is on our jerseys and our practice facility. Wade is not "iconic." Butch Lee is not "iconic." Bo Ellis is not "iconic." And sure as hell James, McNeal and Matthews are not iconic. If anything, they were a collective disappointment.
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0-31 and seven post season wins would arguably be the 2nd most historic team in Marquette history. It would likely make magazine covers and would be a team talked about year after year after year. So, yes. That would be a successful season. Maybe even "iconic."
You guys need to understand something. There is one "iconic" person in the history of Marquette basketball. His name is on our jerseys and our practice facility. Wade is not "iconic." Butch Lee is not "iconic." Bo Ellis is not "iconic." And sure as hell James, McNeal and Matthews are not iconic. If anything, they were a collective disappointment.
You have your opinion, others have theirs. Why bash people for having opinions. By the way, I don't think those guys are iconic either. I also don't agree with your conclusion that Jimmy Butler is better than Wes Matthews. We can all have opinions, no need to rip people for having legitimate opinions.
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I guess you're right. Wasn't that the year where Jimmy kept hitting last-second shots to win games? I can't believe my memory is so foggy already :(
I think that was Jimmy's senior year when he hit a couple game winners like St Johns and UConn (I think). My memory is a little foggy too.
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0-31 and seven post season wins would arguably be the 2nd most historic team in Marquette history. It would likely make magazine covers and would be a team talked about year after year after year. So, yes. That would be a successful season. Maybe even "iconic."
You guys need to understand something. There is one "iconic" person in the history of Marquette basketball. His name is on our jerseys and our practice facility. Wade is not "iconic." Butch Lee is not "iconic." Bo Ellis is not "iconic." And sure as hell James, McNeal and Matthews are not iconic. If anything, they were a collective disappointment.
You have your opinion, others have theirs. Why bash people for having opinions. By the way, I don't think those guys are iconic either. I also don't agree with your conclusion that Jimmy Butler is better than Wes Matthews. We can all have opinions, no need to rip people for having legitimate opinions.
Explain how prn is bashing anyone in the above post. Like you said people have their opinions, Just because they don't agree with you dosen't mean they are bashing.
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I think that was Jimmy's senior year when he hit a couple game winners like St Johns and UConn (I think). My memory is a little foggy too.
The runner @ UConn was his junior year, when we won his senior year at UConn, it was DJO taking over late in the second half and overtime. The St. John's game was also his junior year, we lost to SJU at home last year when he was a senior. The SJU game was the middle game of a three-game road swing (@ Cincy, SJU, and SHU) where we won all three in overtime and pretty much cemented ourselves as a tourney team.
But they do tend to run together as we age... :-[
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Fracking mess 90% of the time? Really?
Really.
I understand people have memories the length of an ant but the team didn't beat anybody of note in non-conference and underperformed relative to talent (using PRN's standards) finishing 9-9, which included some crap stompings and an alarming number of blown double digit leads.
Hey, beating Cuse was a surprise and astounding and it allowed many to remove the stain of the previous 35 but they still got pounded in their last game of the season.
P.S. Should I go on and mention a second straight December with a player departure and the unnecessary topic of off-the-court issues?
It wasn't a smooth 110 days.
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I also don't agree with your conclusion that Jimmy Butler is better than Wes Matthews.
"Was," not "is." Obviously, at this point, Wesley has had more of an opportunity in the NBA. But in my opinion Jimmy Butler was a better college player than Matthews and I really liked Wesley's game. Butler may have been the smartest player we've had in the last 25 years and the only other player I recall consistently hitting big shots was Travis Diener. Incidentally, I'll also DJO over McNeal every day of the week.
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I voted the 9-10 year... Like others have said we lost a ton of scoring and experience. We had to rely on a ton of new or untested players and had injury n transfer issues to boot.
No knock on buzz this year I think he has done a outstanding job. I just think this year we are so much more experienced with 4 returning starters and so much more deep and talented than we were in 9-10
Just my opinion , I think buzz is a great coach and it is a compelling argument
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To attempt to diminish the careers of the 3 amigos is ignorant. They were great players and ambassodors for the program. Wes is a longtime pro, jerel the all time leading scorer and DJ may be the best athlete I'm MU bbal history .. Probably the best defensive pg I have ever seen.
To define them due to heartbreaking injuries n subsequent early NCAA departures is sad. My great frustration then and still today is Crean to incompitent to surround them with any size or talent. Those three were icons n superstars unfortunately 3 players doesn't a team make.
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Really.
I understand people have memories the length of an ant but the team didn't beat anybody of note in non-conference and underperformed relative to talent (using PRN's standards) finishing 9-9, which included some crap stompings and an alarming number of blown double digit leads.
Hey, beating Cuse was a surprise and astounding and it allowed many to remove the stain of the previous 35 but they still got pounded in their last game of the season.
P.S. Should I go on and mention a second straight December with a player departure and the unnecessary topic of off-the-court issues?
It wasn't a smooth 110 days.
No not smooth, but not sure I would call it a mess 90% of the time. Still won 20 some games, and a NCAA tournament appearance 9 and 9 in conference sounds average, but the big east was a beast that year.
BTW I can't even imagine what would have happened if we didn't have the three amigos. Not sure iconic is the right word but their contribution should not be diminished
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To attempt to diminish the careers of the 3 amigos is ignorant. They were great players and ambassodors for the program. Wes is a longtime pro, jerel the all time leading scorer and DJ may be the best athlete I'm MU bbal history .. Probably the best defensive pg I have ever seen.
To define them due to heartbreaking injuries n subsequent early NCAA departures is sad. My great frustration then and still today is Crean to incompitent to surround them with any size or talent. Those three were icons n superstars unfortunately 3 players doesn't a team make.
They were all nice players, none of them were outstanding. Is that fair? You cannot point to Matthews NBA career as proof of him being "iconic" any more than you can point to Leuer's professional career and claim he's an iconic player in Madison. McNeal passing GT for the all time points lead is great for him. A hell of an accomplishment. I'll bet you dollars to donuts that he also had more turnovers than any player in Marquette history. If you going to talk about his scoring, why not talk about his turnovers? His horrible decision making and repeated defensive lapses? As for James, you're right. He was a great athlete. Can't argue with you there. It's hard for me to consider a player "iconic" when every time he rose off the floor to take a jump shot the entire arena groaned.
You wanna know how I "define" them? Not the NCAA losses. It's the poor decision making, horrible shooting and, yes, injuries (both real and dramatized.) I watched these guys. In fact, it's almost a shame that Matthews is lumped in with the other two because he was a very unique player who always stayed within the framework of the rest of the team.
Again...they were all nice players and had nice careers. They were also handed an unheard of amount of minutes as freshmen simply because the cupboard was completely bare. The fact is, this is why they're so high on all of our "all time" lists.
Again...very nice careers...but suggesting they're in any kind of pantheon of Marquette greats (I think McNeal is the only one who even earned a first team all conference nod in 4 years) is absolutely and completely ridiculous.
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Great question.
Voted 9-10 simply for degree of difficulty. Open question because you have no idea how good this team will be yet.
Based on everything that Buzz says and Homer's talks with Orr, MU 3.0 is exactly how Buzz wants to play. 09-10 was probably the exact opposite of how Buzz wanted to play. Yet he did it because that was the only way to win. I just think back to the WVU game at WVU. I know MU didn't win, but they played the only way they could win. They played half-court. Spread the court everywhere as far as they could and hit their threes. And should have beat a final four team on the road.
Buzz had that team doing everything they could to win in a style that was not the style he wanted to coach. That is top-notch coaching. I forget the exact one or two games, but Buzz put Mbao on the top of a 1-2-2 zone to put height and pressure on the ball. That is how far Buzz will go to try things to win.
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Great Question and the answer is all and none of the above as the focus should be in Buzz's evolution as a coach and his amazing learning curve and ability to get the best out of every player he inherits or recruits. Examples: The Senior seasons of Matthews, Cooby and Mo Acker plus all his 2-3 star blue collar rejects ending here with DJO and Jae. (Anyone want to bitch about JUCO transfers after Jimmy, DJO and Jae?)
Plus his ability to get Vander to play as a team stud without high-fiving everyone and never smiling. Mayo, too. And keep the Twinkies out of Ox's mouth. And keep up Otule's spirit. And green light Junior to shoot, drive and score.
Like General Omar Bradley, Buzz is the consummate player's/ soldier's coach. Here's to his evolution and to the team NO one want to play in the first round (or later rounds, too) of the Dance. These guys embody pure Buzz: They just don't quit. Ever.