http://www.chicagohoops.com/articles1/ligginsmay.html
A Rumored MU target.
expect this to be a recurring theme over the summer. As Crean's 4 and 5 star "recruits" end up elsewhere, especially if they stand 6'7" or taller. Sadly Crean has signed 2 good recruiting classes in 8 years, and our BE brethren recruit circles around us. The big 3 ( maybe 2) will be Juniors next year, Crean's time is running out.
Quote from: Harrison on May 09, 2007, 10:07:53 AM
expect this to be a recurring theme over the summer. As Crean's 4 and 5 star "recruits" end up elsewhere, especially if they stand 6'7" or taller. Sadly Crean has signed 2 good recruiting classes in 8 years, and our BE brethren recruit circles around us. The big 3 ( maybe 2) will be Juniors next year, Crean's time is running out.
There are problems but thay may be a bit alarmist. He still has 2008 and 2009 to fill out. Hayward, Cubillan, Mbakwe, Saunders, Williams provides a decent base to work with.
Btw, was Liggins ever really in the picture? My guess is people hammer Crean about "losing" recruits that really were never in the picture.
Sweet mother of God, one player says he is going elsewhere and already the 2009 class is dead and written off.
Crean's time is running out?
Great Scott this is insane. Why don't we reserve judgement until the classes are finished???
You are overreacting to ONE player not coming to Marquette. One who was only RUMORED to be a Marquette TARGET. Not to mention the kid is 6-6, so even if we did sign him he wouldn't have been good enough for you as he would have been just another swing player and not a big guy you keep screaming for.
I am certainly overreacting to your comments Harrison but certainly no more than you are overreacting to this "NEWS".
Quote from: mu03eng on May 09, 2007, 10:19:05 AM
Sweet mother of God, one player says he is going elsewhere and already the 2009 class is dead and written off.
Crean's time is running out?
Great Scott this is insane. Why don't we reserve judgement until the classes are finished???
Because it's early May and we have nothing else to really talk about... ;D
I reiterate; I always thought he was a good recruiter learning to be a good coach (at 1.6/yr.), now, I guess he's just learning to be a good coach.
Quote from: Harrison on May 09, 2007, 10:07:53 AM
expect this to be a recurring theme over the summer. As Crean's 4 and 5 star "recruits" end up elsewhere, especially if they stand 6'7" or taller. Sadly Crean has signed 2 good recruiting classes in 8 years, and our BE brethren recruit circles around us. The big 3 ( maybe 2) will be Juniors next year, Crean's time is running out.
If DJ makes it to the NBA, that's 4 NBA players recruited by Crean in 8 years....I find that to remarkably better then the claim that he's had 2 good recruiting classes which is laughable.
All depends on who is defining the word "good".
Shumpert, by the way, just told Wisconsin no thanks. I guess they should go run and scream the sky is falling as well.
Reading comprehension .... stating that something will be a "recurring theme" by definition means numerous happenings over a period of time. Therefore, directly opposite of throwing in the towel over 1 player. Additionally, while Crean has recruited some nice players our accomplishments have been tied directly to 2 classes. After the Wade class the wheels fell off until the 3 Amigos. And while Cubillan, Hayward et al are decent players they come no where near matching the talent the top tier BE schools are amassing.
"expect this to be a recurring theme over the summer."
Based on what you said, Liggins not having us on his final list heralds this happening with a lot of recruits. The implication therefore is that Liggins is the start of a trend. Well then why is he the start of a trend? He was rumored to be on our radar.....again RUMORED, and doesn't have us on this final 5 how is that indicative of how the summer is going to go?
My issue is you are using Liggins as a spring board to determine that Crean's targets won't come on board this summer. If Liggins wasn't a target then you have no evidence that Crean's targets won't come here. Basically you are jumping the gun. Why don't we wait for the sky is falling rhetoric until after someone who listed us as a top choice decides to go elsewhere?
Quote from: Harrison on May 09, 2007, 10:07:53 AM
expect this to be a recurring theme over the summer. As Crean's 4 and 5 star "recruits" end up elsewhere, especially if they stand 6'7" or taller. Sadly Crean has signed 2 good recruiting classes in 8 years, and our BE brethren recruit circles around us. The big 3 ( maybe 2) will be Juniors next year, Crean's time is running out.
Its good to see you have written off our entire incoming class before they even step foot on campus. I didn't know you dabbled in scouting and have seen all of them play as much as TC and his staff.
And to think I was getting my hopes up with the soon to be arrival of a top 100 ranked, legit power player in Mbakwe who is a great rebounder and shot blocker. I guess we ALL better enjoy the next two years because after that we are going to suck something bad. ::)
which BE schools are running rings around us? UConn? We're 2-0 against them the last two years. Pitt? We're 3-2. Nova and West Virginia? 1-1. We started two juniors and three sophomores last year and went 10-6 in the BE. You're right. Fire Crean now. But if his recruiting is a bad as some feel, then he deserves a raise because he must be the world's greatest coach to go 10-6 with inferior talent.
a **** recruit? Isn't he ranked in the top 100 by all the polls I've seen? I don't quite get your point here.
Of course, with only what 3 scholarships to give your point will easily be proven right as the vast majority of Crean's targets will go elsewhere. Yet, again with only 3 scholarships available, he already has one top 100 guy on board.
ecompt per my post which you obviously did not read I stated Crean has signed two good classes and we have rode them. The BIG 3 cannot do it alone and if we lose DJ it gets even harder. As i staed the wheels were off until the BIg 3. Now pay attention ...we have those stated records with the Big 3. I am saying with the last 2 classes the wheels will fall off again after the BIg 3. Our recruiting has not been good enough to replace them or match the top tier BE the last two years. Yes we did beat those teams with the Big 3. We also beat Wake forest with Wade's class so what? The point is our success is dependant on 3 players right now. My other point is 3/4 of Crean's classes have been mediocre at best.
So we're not recruting good enough for Harrison.
And the top tier BE teams are recruiting SO much better?
Harrison, please tell me what you would rather have, a team that sticks together for a couple years, or a consistent flow of 1-'n'-dones and 2-'n'-dones?
There's a reason why Syracuse and UCONN weren't strong last year, it was their large turnover rate in recruiting.
Can TC pull the McD's AAs? Probably not, but the talent level he gets is perfect for the current college basketball enviroment.
Once again Harrison, we are reading what you are writing and not agreeing with you, its not a reading comprehension thing.
You state that the wheels are going to come off with our last two recruiting classes. So you are judging the incoming class as no good before they even step foot on campus. You are also dismissing Hayward's and Cube's class even though both of those players made considerable contributions to this past season and we have no reason to suspect they can't get better. Then to add insult to injury you are already predicting the 2008 class is no good even though we already have a commit from a top 100 guard???? Where exactly is your proof that our recruiting sucked the last two years???? Who should we have gotten that we didn't? I'd love to have all-americans 12 deep, just ain't happening.
I can't even agree to disagree with you because to say 3/4s of Crean's recruiting classes are mediocre at best is amazingly pessimistic at best, a down right falsehood at worst.
Remember 04 and 05? The last two recruiting classes will produce a similar product when the BIG 3 are gone. Hayward and Cubes are decent players but nothing special stats and minutes significantly bolstered by the fact that MU had at least 4 players on the roster that did not belong there. Recruiting mistakes killed the team's depth. See what happened when Jerel did not play? not remove the BIG 3. 04 and 05 all over again. Now on the 1 and done and 2 and done comment were you referring to UConn or MU on that? Recruiting mistakes and 2 and 3 star recruits will not cut it, we have 3 top 50 recruits carrying this team right now. 2 years later we have not signed another one. By the way Williams rank is currently 144.
Quote from: Harrison on May 10, 2007, 10:37:41 AM
Remember 04 and 05? The last two recruiting classes will produce a similar product when the BIG 3 are gone. Hayward and Cubes are decent players but nothing special stats and minutes significantly bolstered by the fact that MU had at least 4 players on the roster that did not belong there. Recruiting mistakes killed the team's depth. See what happened when Jerel did not play? not remove the BIG 3. 04 and 05 all over again. Now on the 1 and done and 2 and done comment were you referring to UConn or MU on that? Recruiting mistakes and 2 and 3 star recruits will not cut it, we have 3 top 50 recruits carrying this team right now. 2 years later we have not signed another one. By the way Williams rank is currently 144.
Scout has Williams ranked #85 in there Spring edition that just came out and we are sitting in good shape with Shumpert who has skyrocketed to #15.
BTW, Hayward and Cubillian might not be special players but they are very good players that produced during their freshmen year on a team that was dominated by the big 3. They are four year players that will improve every year and will help keep us in the upper echelon of the Big East.
Quote from: Harrison on May 10, 2007, 10:37:41 AM
Remember 04 and 05? The last two recruiting classes will produce a similar product when the BIG 3 are gone. Hayward and Cubes are decent players but nothing special stats and minutes significantly bolstered by the fact that MU had at least 4 players on the roster that did not belong there. Recruiting mistakes killed the team's depth. See what happened when Jerel did not play? not remove the BIG 3. 04 and 05 all over again. Now on the 1 and done and 2 and done comment were you referring to UConn or MU on that? Recruiting mistakes and 2 and 3 star recruits will not cut it, we have 3 top 50 recruits carrying this team right now. 2 years later we have not signed another one. By the way Williams rank is currently 144.
My problem Harrison is you have decided the incoming class is already going to suck before you have even seen them. Also I don't think at this point in their careers you could tell a difference between Diener and Cube. Again I would love to have top 100 players at every position but it is simply impossible. To say that Cube and Hayward only play because there is a lack of depth is insane, both would play the same minutes at any other BE school.
Also I have a big issue with you using Jerel and his injury as an example. We played 4 games without Jerel at the end of the season. We beat Pitt and St Johns and then lost to Pitt and MSU. MSU can't count negative more than the Pitt W counts as a positive. Yes it was a blow out in the MSU game, but we also were blowing out Pitt without him. We haven't seen Acker yet, and as Fanatic said Nick Williams is a top 100 guard.
Ultimately, whats your point? That we should all be able to predict what failures our 06 and 07 recruits will be like you apparently can, and fire Crean now?
Quote from: Harrison on May 10, 2007, 10:37:41 AM
Remember 04 and 05? The last two recruiting classes will produce a similar product when the BIG 3 are gone. Hayward and Cubes are decent players but nothing special stats and minutes significantly bolstered by the fact that MU had at least 4 players on the roster that did not belong there. Recruiting mistakes killed the team's depth. See what happened when Jerel did not play? not remove the BIG 3. 04 and 05 all over again. Now on the 1 and done and 2 and done comment were you referring to UConn or MU on that? Recruiting mistakes and 2 and 3 star recruits will not cut it, we have 3 top 50 recruits carrying this team right now. 2 years later we have not signed another one. By the way Williams rank is currently 144.
Dude, you are going to have to wait and see what happens after the "big 3" leave before you can say that MU will have a drop off. Saying it now is just being an alarmist.
#1 Was there a big drop off after Dwyane left. Certainly.
#2 Did Crean learn from it? Well, in interviews he has said (I'm paraphrasing) that he doesn't ever want to be left short-handed again because of a player turning pro (Dwyane)... so I would say he has a plan so there will be not be a drop-off like in the past
#3 Keep in mind that you are saying that because MU experienced a drop-off ONCE, that it will happen again (nice sample size).
There are WAY WAY WAY too many variables at this point to make any sort of assumption. A lot of different things could happen that could impact MU's future success.
Recruiting is just one element. Player development, transfers, injuries, NBA, etc. are all factors that you are not considering... and realistically most of these cannot be predicted by people who aren't intimately involved with the team.
mu03eng -- you really like to jump to conclusions in your unabashed blind support. Where did I say the incoming class would suck? never said that nor did I say last years class sucked. I simply said their time was much higher due to previous recruiting mistakes. And I do beleve for example that Lazar would have gotten less playing time had say Amoroso not been a "2 and done". His leaving and MU having to substitute a Freshman where we would have been much better being able to at times lean on an experienced Junior cannot be simply discarded. We were weaker at the 4 due to a recruiting mistake...period.
I guess we can pickup this converstion at a later date like in 2 years. But I can tell you my experience following and scouting college basketball has caused me to put alot of creedence in the prospect rankings. You do not replace 3 top 50 kids with non top 100 kids and do as well. 2003 to 2004 proved that. And hundreds of other examples abound. look at Illinois. Look at Mu over the years on and on and on. Winning is 90% talent Have i completely abandodned th incoming class...no But I can say experience tells me kids that were underecruited and we battled Hofstra and Massacuetts for that come from BE turf and are 2 star ranked wont hold up against the 4 and 5 stars our peers are loading up on. Mbakwe fine...but 1 top 100 in 2 years?
Quote from: Harrison on May 10, 2007, 02:04:43 PM
mu03eng -- you really like to jump to conclusions in your unabashed blind support. Where did I say the incoming class would suck? never said that nor did I say last years class sucked. I simply said their time was much higher due to previous recruiting mistakes. And I do beleve for example that Lazar would have gotten less playing time had say Amoroso not been a "2 and done". His leaving and MU having to substitute a Freshman where we would have been much better being able to at times lean on an experienced Junior cannot be simply discarded. We were weaker at the 4 due to a recruiting mistake...period.
I guess we can pickup this converstion at a later date like in 2 years. But I can tell you my experience following and scouting college basketball has caused me to put alot of creedence in the prospect rankings. You do not replace 3 top 50 kids with non top 100 kids and do as well. 2003 to 2004 proved that. And hundreds of other examples abound. look at Illinois. Look at Mu over the years on and on and on. Winning is 90% talent Have i completely abandodned th incoming class...no But I can say experience tells me kids that were underecruited and we battled Hofstra and Massacuetts for that come from BE turf and are 2 star ranked wont hold up against the 4 and 5 stars our peers are loading up on. Mbakwe fine...but 1 top 100 in 2 years?
Hey, you may be right, and I think this is actually your best post in the thread.
You follow recruiting, and you are of the opinion that high recruits are 90% of winning. (that is your premise)
I'll say that I disagree with you because if winning was 90% about recruits, there wouldn't be as much parity in college hoops as there is currently. (that is the debate)
I think player development is just as important as high school rankings, and I think there are plenty of examples of that. MU has some good players right now, but a lot of the MU players weren't ranked as high as the players that MU beats (UCONN, UofL etc.). (that is my premise, along with some others on this board)
Anyways, we can pull this post up in 2010, and see where we are at. You might be right and MU may hit a lull, or MU/Crean could be better than ever.
I know which one I'm pulling for...
Just because I'm not overly pessimistic doesn't make me a blind follower. I just happen to see more good than bad in the program right now and am very excited for next years team.
Well gee I kind of sort of assumed that you were implying our last two recruiting classes sucked when you said they will lead us to results like '04 and '05, which everyone pretty much regards as less than stellar. Also the recruiting classes leading up to 04 and 05 sucked, so I assumed you were implying these latest two did as well.
Amoroso I don't think helps us out more than having Lazar getting good minutes as a freshman. Ryan was inconsistent and a cancer. Besides I don't put much stock in Ryan's leadership abilities as an "experienced" junior. I think Lazar as a sophomore is going to be better for us than Ryan as a junior or senior will be. Plus if Ryan is here now Mkwabe is perhaps not. What was the recruiting mistake you reference to make us weaker at the 4??
In the end I have trouble believing that our recruiting is that bad if we have gone 10-6 in consecutive seasons in the BE? So either Crean is a great X and O coach with mediocre talent or he is a great talent finder who doesn't coach at the highest level. Which is it, because I have seen your opinion on his X and O abilities?? He can't suck at Xs and Os and recruiting and put together the last two seasons.
I guess it will continue to go right over your head so I will have to leave it at that. You are making my point for me...yes we were 10-6 the last 2 years becuase we had the 3 Amigos you dont for a second beleive this team minus the 3 amigos and say they be substituted with a 3 top 150 type recruits does the same do you?
The team in 2005 with Novak and Diener went .500 in C-Usa you feel that was enough talent to go 10-6 in the BE or does the fact that we signed 3 top 50 kids make the difference?
A more talented team will win most nights....winning is 90% talent.
Bottom line we need 2-3 more top 100 recruits in this and next years class, total, to remain where we are. And where are we? good but far from great...double digit losses the last two years with a total of 1 conference win and 0 NCAA win. i guess I'm just not much for the status quo and losing the big 3 while replacing them with Acker, Williams and Christopherson puts us back into 2004.
Quotewe have 3 top 50 recruits carrying this team right now.
Actually... this is not entirely true.... Rivals had
DJ- #61
Matthews- #85
McNeal- #99
And Lazar was actually ranked #73 by rivals in their final ranking of the 2006 class
well if you go by the composite ranks http://home.nc.rr.com/rsci/RSCI_100_Final_2005.htm (http://home.nc.rr.com/rsci/RSCI_100_Final_2005.htm):
James - 36
McNeal - 57
Matthews - 61
Other Crean RSCI recruits include:
Robert Jackson - 33
Merrit - 85
Diener - 40
Novak - 57
Mason - 71
Mbakwe currently at 98
and soon to be Nick Williams
Quote from: Harrison on May 10, 2007, 03:59:04 PM
I guess it will continue to go right over your head so I will have to leave it at that. You are making my point for me...yes we were 10-6 the last 2 years becuase we had the 3 Amigos you dont for a second beleive this team minus the 3 amigos and say they be substituted with a 3 top 150 type recruits does the same do you?
The team in 2005 with Novak and Diener went .500 in C-Usa you feel that was enough talent to go 10-6 in the BE or does the fact that we signed 3 top 50 kids make the difference?
A more talented team will win most nights....winning is 90% talent.
Bottom line we need 2-3 more top 100 recruits in this and next years class, total, to remain where we are. And where are we? good but far from great...double digit losses the last two years with a total of 1 conference win and 0 NCAA win. i guess I'm just not much for the status quo and losing the big 3 while replacing them with Acker, Williams and Christopherson puts us back into 2004.
Again, we cannot speak in certainties until the chips fall. Your sample size is very small. You are really talking about a very short time period.
I agree that MU will need to replace talent with more talent... but to make such bold assumptions about 2009-2010 is both bold and probably ignorant. What if a great player transfers in? What if Hayward over achieves? Lots of variables... you are just looking at 1 of them.
I assume MU will be good because I trust the coaches... you assume they will be bad because you don't trust the coaches.
The only difference is that I'm not telling everybody that MU will be great in 2010 because I'm not blinded by the dislike or like (depending on who you are) of the coaches like you are.
I DON'T KNOW HOW GOOD MU WILL BE IN 2010... TO SPECULATE IN 2007 IS SILLY.
Speculate on 2007... at least then we will have a realistic chance of discussing it.
And all we need is 1 or 2 good freshmen in the next 2 years and we'd be fine because nowadays freshmen can contribute early and at a high capacity. This isn't the 70s or 80s where we have to plan an extra year or two beyond signing a good recruit because freshmen and sophomores can come in and play and like I mentioned earlier contibute. (see, durant, oden, conley, dj, wes, jerel)
Quote from: Harrison on May 10, 2007, 03:59:04 PM
I guess it will continue to go right over your head so I will have to leave it at that. You are making my point for me...yes we were 10-6 the last 2 years becuase we had the 3 Amigos you dont for a second beleive this team minus the 3 amigos and say they be substituted with a 3 top 150 type recruits does the same do you?
The team in 2005 with Novak and Diener went .500 in C-Usa you feel that was enough talent to go 10-6 in the BE or does the fact that we signed 3 top 50 kids make the difference?
A more talented team will win most nights....winning is 90% talent.
Bottom line we need 2-3 more top 100 recruits in this and next years class, total, to remain where we are. And where are we? good but far from great...double digit losses the last two years with a total of 1 conference win and 0 NCAA win. i guess I'm just not much for the status quo and losing the big 3 while replacing them with Acker, Williams and Christopherson puts us back into 2004.
I'm not even trying to say that we could replace the 3 amigos with three 150 ranked FRESHMEN. I think by the time Wesley, Jerel, and DJ are gone we will have players with either raw talent or talent and experience to get us through. I am not saying that Christopherson or Acker RIGHT NOW are as good as the 3 amigos but just because a player isn't top 100 doesn't mean they can't develop into it. I see enough talent coming in, and the 3 amigos not rushing out of town that we should be ok. Cube will improve every year as well.
Also we have Nick Williams coming in, he is top 100 so by your standard Crean only needs one or two more to hold the team together.......why the panic button?
TC has shown the ability to recruit top notch perimeter players so I am not very concerned about replacing McNeal, Matthews and Dom James. I have no idea why Harrison would.
By all accounts Nick Williams is a very good player who has a better outside shot than any of the big 3. And that is a great start.
In addition, we could very well land Iman Shumpert who has sky rocketed to #15 in Scouts rankings. Now just think about that, we have a legit chance of getting a top 20 player. When was the last time we had a LEGIT chance of getting that type of player. None of the big 3 had a ranking that high.
Finally, we now have a legit interior player ranked in the top 100 in Mbakwe, yet Harrison has decided to gloss over that ranking because it does not fit his agenda. That alone should set us up for the potential for greater things as we have not had that type of interior talent coming in, in a long time. Barro was a gifted RAW talent. Mbakwe is a gifted talent that is a lot further along. If we close the deal on Shumpert and Jamil Wilson the year after, look out.
Quote from: Harrison on May 09, 2007, 10:07:53 AM
expect this to be a recurring theme over the summer. As Crean's 4 and 5 star "recruits" end up elsewhere, especially if they stand 6'7" or taller. Sadly Crean has signed 2 good recruiting classes in 8 years, and our BE brethren recruit circles around us. The big 3 ( maybe 2) will be Juniors next year, Crean's time is running out.
From Cincinnati's coach....you recruit many to land just a few.
"I'm a numbers guy," observes Cronin, "so to sign six guys, we've got to recruit probably 20. It takes almost three-and-a-half to four guys to get one recruit. And that's way down from the number you start with. So now, when you're recruiting 20 guys to get six, you've got to recruit the kid, you've got to recruit at least one family member and at least one of the coaches, high school or AAU. So now you're dealing with 60 people on a daily basis as a staff."