http://ilprepbullseye.com/Conference_Challenge_Recap.html
Sounds like what everyone else has been saying about him, very high praise. I really hope we can land this young man.
Putting another 6'6"+ switchable in the league this year (Crowder) could go a long way in landing Looney. Then when another local 6'7" switchable thrives in the stretch 4 role in Buzz' offense next year (JWilson), we will look even more attractive. Of course, if he wants to get his balls crushed every day, MU is the perfect place for him regardless!
Quote from: QuetteHoops on February 21, 2012, 09:03:40 AM
Sounds like what everyone else has been saying about him, very high praise. I really hope we can land this young man.
I do too. He'd be a great addition to the team.
I still don't understand why so many people don't want a player like Kevon on the team. In the last week I've taken more than my fair share of crap from those who would rather have unraked and unknown players with a chips on their shoulder, rather than a potential #1 player nationall from our own backyard.
Quote from: The Equalizer on February 21, 2012, 09:42:39 AM
I do too. He'd be a great addition to the team.
I still don't understand why so many people don't want a player like Kevon on the team. In the last week I've taken more than my fair share of crap from those who would rather have unraked and unknown players with a chips on their shoulder, rather than a potential #1 player nationall from our own backyard.
Wow, talk about playing the victim card on top of a completely made up argument. I bet if you started a poll on whether people on this board would rather have Looney or a generic 3*, you would get between 99 and 100% voting for Looney. Keep your personal vendettas out of this thread, please.
Quote from: The Equalizer on February 21, 2012, 09:42:39 AM
I do too. He'd be a great addition to the team.
I still don't understand why so many people don't want a player like Kevon on the team. In the last week I've taken more than my fair share of crap from those who would rather have unraked and unknown players with a chips on their shoulder, rather than a potential #1 player nationall from our own backyard.
To paraphrase Spock; "Develop a thick skin and prosper."
...or, just keep drawing fire to your position, its up to you.
Quote from: Jamailman on February 21, 2012, 09:57:55 AM
Wow, talk about playing the victim card on top of a completely made up argument. I bet if you started a poll on whether people on this board would rather have Looney or a generic 3*, you would get between 99 and 100% voting for Looney. Keep your personal vendettas out of this thread, please.
+1. People have defended the guys Buzz has brought into the program, and rightly so. He's already put one 2* in the NBA and two more may follow next year. But I haven't heard anyone saying "stay away from 5* guys".
People have dreamed that Steve Taylor could be our "in" with Jabari Parker, but there's no indication that it can happen. One year later (2014) Looney could be our version of Parker. In spite of 84's whining, is there ANYBODY on this board who wouldn't be excited by that? Not that I've seen.
Kevon would be a recruiting gem for either Buzz or Bo to keep him instate. Super nice kid and family with no academic issues. My hunch says he goes elsewhere though.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on February 21, 2012, 10:14:30 AM
+1. People have defended the guys Buzz has brought into the program, and rightly so. He's already put one 2* in the NBA and two more may follow next year. But I haven't heard anyone saying "stay away from 5* guys".
People have dreamed that Steve Taylor could be our "in" with Jabari Parker, but there's no indication that it can happen. One year later (2014) Looney could be our version of Parker. In spite of 84's whining, is there ANYBODY on this board who wouldn't be excited by that? Not that I've seen.
He's already put
one 2* in the NBA and two more may follow next year.
I'd say three. You can't say that Wes and Lazar don't count just because Buzz didn't recruit them. He coached Wes for a year and Lazar for two. Wes' game in particular, developed the most under Buzz.
Quote from: LittleMurs on February 21, 2012, 10:33:15 AM
He's already put one 2* in the NBA and two more may follow next year.
I'd say three. You can't say that Wes and Lazar don't count just because Buzz didn't recruit them. He coached Wes for a year and Lazar for two. Wes' game in particular, developed the most under Buzz.
While I agree Buzz deserves credit for the development of Wes and Zar, they were both 4* players, not 2* like Butler, DJO and Crowder were coming out of high school.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on February 21, 2012, 10:31:39 AM
Kevon would be a recruiting gem for either Buzz or Bo to keep him instate. Super nice kid and family with no academic issues. My hunch says he goes elsewhere though.
Will Looney be Tokoto 2.0? My hunch says your hunch should take a hike. I'm thinking (hoping) that by the time Looney is making up his mind, the benefits of going to a "big time program" will be much less obvious then they were for Tokoto. A lot may be riding on how well that kid who doesn't get into his HS games develops. Everyone likes to play with a big, especially if they're tall and don't want to get drafted to play the post by default.
As soon as Looney announces where his press conference will be, I'll be camping out outside.
This time bring the damn donuts!!!
Quote from: Jamailman on February 21, 2012, 10:36:28 AM
While I agree Buzz deserves credit for the development of Wes and Zar, they were both 4* players, not 2* like Butler, DJO and Crowder were coming out of high school.
Ahh, the "*" was a star. I thought Lennys Tap was talking
basketball positions. My bad.
tokoto being buried on the bench at UNC might actually help MU
Don't underestimate my hunch. Press conference will not be at On The Border or Silk.
Why would Tokoto be buried?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on February 21, 2012, 10:47:48 AM
Why would Tokoto be buried?
Just a hunch.... he will be by far the lowest rated recruit on the team.
I realize ratings dont always translate, but I also beleive that for the most part non inner city league players from Wisconsin have a higher hill to climb due to the terrible product that is Wisconsin High school basketball.
Quote from: The Equalizer on February 21, 2012, 09:42:39 AMI still don't understand why so many people don't want a player like Kevon on the team. In the last week I've taken more than my fair share of crap from those who would rather have unraked and unknown players with a chips on their shoulder, rather than a potential #1 player nationall from our own backyard.
Maybe I missed something, but who said they don't want Kevon Looney on the team? Who specifically said that they would rather have an unranked player than Looney?
If it was said, so be it. But I don't believe anyone wouldn't want Looney at Marquette. He's a perfect fit for us, is in our back yard, and would help continue the tradition of keeping top-flight Milwaukee talent home that Deonte Burton is trying to start.
So who said it? Who said "I'd rather take a nobody over Kevon Looney"? Because I don't believe anyone said that.
Quote from: Canadian Dimes on February 21, 2012, 11:16:15 AM
Just a hunch.... he will be by far the lowest rated recruit on the team.
I realize ratings dont always translate, but I also beleive that for the most part non inner city league players from Wisconsin have a higher hill to climb due to the terrible product that is Wisconsin High school basketball.
And you may 100% correct. From what I've observed from Tokoto, he is atypical of WI players. Not just in skill, but commitment.
Put up or shup up, Equalizer. Please find the posts that say they don't want Mooney. Personally, I want players who want to play for Buzz, who know what that means (getting balls crushed every day), and want to do it anyway. If a 4-5 star wants that, come on down. If they want to go elsewhere, I have confidence that Buzz will find someone almost as talented who wants to put in the work.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on February 21, 2012, 10:46:39 AM
Don't underestimate my hunch. Press conference will not be at On The Border or Silk.
Believe me, I'd feel alot better if your hunch said MU at this point. Good news is it's not even halftime in the decision making process and Buzz obviously doesn't let early deficits rattle him.
Good points, Len
Quote from: Lennys Tap on February 21, 2012, 11:39:48 AM
Believe me, I'd feel alot better if your hunch said MU at this point. Good news is it's not even halftime in the decision making process and Buzz obviously doesn't let early deficits rattle him.
I would guess, also, that Deonte Burton may have some influence with Looney. Maybe that is wishful thinking, but his coming back to Milwaukee and his pride with MU can go a long way.
I would love to see Duane Wilson, Looney and Stone join Burton at Marquette.
Aren't all those players from Wisconsin? Wow I guess they're not all terrible after all.
Quote from: MUMac on February 21, 2012, 11:51:58 AM
I would guess, also, that Deonte Burton may have some influence with Looney. Maybe that is wishful thinking, but his coming back to Milwaukee and his pride with MU can go a long way.
I would love to see Duane Wilson, Looney and Stone join Burton at Marquette.
Clearly the dream scenario, and I think that would get a ton of national pub akin to the Flintstones at MSU. We would also win an absurd number of games.
Quote from: Jamailman on February 21, 2012, 12:15:18 PM
Clearly the dream scenario, and I think that would get a ton of national pub akin to the Flintstones at MSU. We would also win an absurd number of games.
+1000
I would love to see an all Milwaukee lineup for MU in 2014: Duane Wilson at PG, Burton at SG, Looney at SF, some big body at PF, and Stone in the center. That's completely not mentioning all the other talent we would have on the roster (Mayo, Juan, Taylor, Taylor, Ferguson, etc). Go get 'em Buzz.
He is a real talent. I would not bet against Buzz.
Quote from: tower912 on February 21, 2012, 11:29:15 AM
Put up or shup up, Equalizer. Please find the posts that say they don't want Mooney. Personally, I want players who want to play for Buzz, who know what that means (getting balls crushed every day), and want to do it anyway. If a 4-5 star wants that, come on down. If they want to go elsewhere, I have confidence that Buzz will find someone almost as talented who wants to put in the work.
This. Only want a recruit that fits in with our culture and Buzz's work ethic. If not, they will most likely not succeed not like playing at MU.
Dangelo Harrison comes to mind after watching him
Play and hearing about him being very hard headed, etc. He is an elite talent and great ball player but something tells me, I'm
Glad we missed out on him. This is just hypothetical and he may be a great kid and may h r worked out extremely well at MU but my instincts are/were that he would t have been a good fit. Sorry a bit off topic.
I'd be happy, extremely happy, with all of the above mentioned Milwaukee kids if they want to come to MU and do some damage in the big east.
Quote from: AWegrzyn17 on February 21, 2012, 12:30:52 PM
I would love to see an all Milwaukee lineup for MU in 2014: Duane Wilson at PG, Burton at SG, Looney at SF, some big body at PF, and Stone in the center. That's completely not mentioning all the other talent we would have on the roster (Mayo, Juan, Taylor, Taylor, Ferguson, etc). Go get 'em Buzz.
Before we get too far ahead of ourselves, back in 2009 we had people on this board that said that Junior Lomomba was "ahead" of both Vander Blue and Tim Maymon at that point in his career. And even if that was the case, he certainly wasn't by the end of his HS career.
Long time between now and then. Who knows how these guys will pan out?
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on February 21, 2012, 01:40:24 PM
Before we get too far ahead of ourselves, back in 2009 we had people on this board that said that Junior Lomomba was "ahead" of both Vander Blue and Tim Maymon at that point in his career. And even if that was the case, he certainly wasn't by the end of his HS career.
Long time between now and then. Who knows how these guys will pan out?
Probably not intentional, but I love it!
Sign in UW student section:'I bought crack from Tim Maymon'
I want us to get any Milwaukee kid capable of playing our level of ball. Over the past 15 years or so Milwaukee has produced a ton of D1 kids and I hope we get the best of the bunch every time a blue chipper is out there. Local kids create higher interst in the program, both fan base and media wise.
I'm hoping Looney and other 5-stars choose a big-time program that goes to the next two Final Fours.
That program being Marquette, of course!
Quote from: tower912 on February 21, 2012, 11:29:15 AM
Put up or shup up, Equalizer. Please find the posts that say they don't want Mooney. Personally, I want players who want to play for Buzz, who know what that means (getting balls crushed every day), and want to do it anyway. If a 4-5 star wants that, come on down. If they want to go elsewhere, I have confidence that Buzz will find someone almost as talented who wants to put in the work.
There were a ton of comments over the past several days, all professing a similar sentiment: We don't want those top-level recruits. The reasons follow a litany of "they don't work hard enough", "they play as individuals--not part of a team", "rankings are irrelevant", "they're one-and-done" "not every elite player turns out to be a star", "sometimes an unknown player turns out to be better" etc. etc. etc.
I can think of two possible options they would make such comments:
1. These people truly don't prefer players like Kevon Looney and would truly rather have the non-elite recruits.
2. They secretly want players like Kevon Looney, but refuse to say so publicly out of fear their expectations won't be met.
Frankly, that second option make our fans sound just like those UW fans who claim "Bo cooled " on whatever recruit he doesn't land.
For some reason, people view it as an affront to Buzz to even mention that Buzz hasn't landed any such players. They seem hell bent on destroying anyone who might suggest that we would be better if we landed such players. They instead insist on pretending that we never really wanted such players in the first place--to the point where they won't even admit that Buzz had recruited such players before moving on to the guys he eventually signed.
"Recruit rankings don't matter at all. Recruiting players that are going to flourish in your program is what matters."
"Maybe what makes our team better is that we have less of the prima donna wannas that are on UCONN and others? Our guys play as a team, not as individuals."
"Just keep getting the DJOs, JFBs, and Jae Crowders of the world and let the other schools fight over the one and dones."
"Who cares how many damn stars Rivals gave our recruits. Look at our team right now. One man's trash is another's treasure."
"Probably not the best time to lament the make-up of our roster or Buzz's judge of talent. Wouldn't trade this team... very talented and hard-working with lots of heart. They buy into the program and succeed... that is more important than a player's arbitrary extra 50 spots "in recruiting ranking."
"This really has got to be one of the dumbests threads, especially timing wise, that I've seen on here in some time. We've gotten our share of highly rated recruits, they're just not our best players."
"Consistent recruiting and high class players will get us to the promised land. Elite players are not necessary nor do they always bring a championship."
"The top players aren't looking to be part of a good "team". They want to be "Da Man". MU's teams play without great individual talent, but a great blending of talent. If I'm a Top 10 guy I want to go where the team revolves around me."
"While it would be nice to see more 4 and 5's coming to Marquette, with the 4 and 5's comes some of the "drama" and "bs" that is associated with them. Plus, how many would be able to make it through Buzz's boot camp? I'll gladly take the 3 and low 4s looking to prove something."
"I would much rather have a completely underrated player with a chip on his shoulder who comes in and works his ass off to get better"
"Kid goes to MU he is a 3-4 star; goes to UNC, Duke, Kentucky or Kansas that same kid is 4-5 star. Ranking don't mean anything."
Quote from: The Equalizer on February 21, 2012, 02:34:58 PM
There were a ton of comments over the past several days, all professing a similar sentiment: We don't want those top-level recruits. The reasons follow a litany of "they don't work hard enough", "they play as individuals--not part of a team", "rankings are irrelevant", "they're one-and-done" "not every elite player turns out to be a star", "sometimes an unknown player turns out to be better" etc. etc. etc.
I can think of two possible options they would make such comments:
1. These people truly don't prefer players like Kevon Looney and would truly rather have the non-elite recruits.
2. They secretly want players like Kevon Looney, but refuse to say so publicly out of fear their expectations won't be met.
Frankly, that second option make our fans sound just like those UW fans who claim "Bo cooled " on whatever recruit he doesn't land.
For some reason, people view it as an affront to Buzz to even mention that Buzz hasn't landed any such players. They seem hell bent on destroying anyone who might suggest that we would be better if we landed such players. They instead insist on pretending that we never really wanted such players in the first place--to the point where they won't even admit that Buzz had recruited such players before moving on to the guys he eventually signed.
"Recruit rankings don't matter at all. Recruiting players that are going to flourish in your program is what matters."
"Maybe what makes our team better is that we have less of the prima donna wannas that are on UCONN and others? Our guys play as a team, not as individuals."
"Just keep getting the DJOs, JFBs, and Jae Crowders of the world and let the other schools fight over the one and dones."
"Who cares how many damn stars Rivals gave our recruits. Look at our team right now. One man's trash is another's treasure."
"Probably not the best time to lament the make-up of our roster or Buzz's judge of talent. Wouldn't trade this team... very talented and hard-working with lots of heart. They buy into the program and succeed... that is more important than a player's arbitrary extra 50 spots "in recruiting ranking."
"This really has got to be one of the dumbests threads, especially timing wise, that I've seen on here in some time. We've gotten our share of highly rated recruits, they're just not our best players."
"Consistent recruiting and high class players will get us to the promised land. Elite players are not necessary nor do they always bring a championship."
"The top players aren't looking to be part of a good "team". They want to be "Da Man". MU's teams play without great individual talent, but a great blending of talent. If I'm a Top 10 guy I want to go where the team revolves around me."
"While it would be nice to see more 4 and 5's coming to Marquette, with the 4 and 5's comes some of the "drama" and "bs" that is associated with them. Plus, how many would be able to make it through Buzz's boot camp? I'll gladly take the 3 and low 4s looking to prove something."
"I would much rather have a completely underrated player with a chip on his shoulder who comes in and works his ass off to get better"
"Kid goes to MU he is a 3-4 star; goes to UNC, Duke, Kentucky or Kansas that same kid is 4-5 star. Ranking don't mean anything."
+1000000000000000
Buzz has been successful with what he does. So far, his best successes have been with under the radar types. His 4 star recruits out of high school have been slower to develop than his JUCO's. The JUCO's have had more instant impact. Blue and Mayo are the first 2 freshmen he has brought in who have contributed as a freshman but they have not been stars as freshmen. I would love the instant impact 5 star. However, they are few and far between. So, I am more than satisfied with the package that is Buzz. And I am hopeful that as he continues to show he can develop talent, particularly at the wings, that he will start to land the instant impact freshmen.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on February 21, 2012, 01:40:24 PM
Before we get too far ahead of ourselves, back in 2009 we had people on this board that said that Junior Lomomba was "ahead" of both Vander Blue and Tim Maymon at that point in his career. And even if that was the case, he certainly wasn't by the end of his HS career.
Long time between now and then. Who knows how these guys will pan out?
I don't recall those comments about Lomomba. I do know he was considered a potential high major prospect at that time. He never developed. But, as a Sophomore, anyone who felt he was anywhere near the same zip code as Vander and Tim's son likely had not watched all 3 play at that stage of their career.
With Looney, and Stone, both have something Lomomba does not - height. Both are much more highly thought of Nationally that Lomomba. Looney has a nice shot right now - something Lomomba never developed.
I understand your cautionary tale. Tokoto might have been a better example.
Plus, Buzz has landed 4 starts. Blue, JJones, EWill, Junior, Juan. JWilson in, Jeronne out. Some have developed slower than others, some never live up to the hype. Buzz has been successful because he has used the JUCO route to seamlessly keep MU's success going. Butler, DJO, and Jae are all coups. No getting around it. And he has developed less highly regarded recruits. Mayo, Otule, Gardner. So if Looney wants to come because he thinks Buzz can develop him as a person and a player, welcome! A high 4 star (possibly 5) who wants to play for Buzz would be a great get. But if he doesn't, I trust Buzz to find a talented player who does. We just may not as be familiar with his name.
Quote from: The Equalizer on February 21, 2012, 09:42:39 AM
I do too. He'd be a great addition to the team.
I still don't understand why so many people don't want a player like Kevon on the team. In the last week I've taken more than my fair share of crap from those who would rather have unraked and unknown players with a chips on their shoulder, rather than a potential #1 player nationall from our own backyard.
You must be the least intelligent person on this board (quite the accomplishment if I must say myself). No one is saying that we should be turning away all the 5 star recruits who come knocking and want to play for Buzz. The point people have been criticizing you about is that you have to be realistic in your recruiting plan. Its not like Buzz can just wake up one day and say, "I'm going to solely focus on 5 star recruits; screw anyone below a 93 on ESPN's recruiting ratings." That would be suicide since there are only 50 or so guys out there in the entire country who meet that definition, and Marquette simply is not in a position to draw enough of them to Milwaukee.
Unless you are the likes of Duke, UNC, Kentucky, or Kansas, you need to develop a comparative advantage in recruiting. For some schools that means having particular strong ties to a certain city, ties to an AAU organization, developing a reputation for a style of play, or developing certain types of players. 98% of schools have to try to win over recruits with something other than "We are UNC". Buzz has developed a comparative advantage in identifying JUCO players and underrated high school players and developing them into above average (or even NBA ready) college players
Now if a 5 star kid already has a connection to Milwaukee and Marquette and wants to play for us, obviously come on board. But a 5 star recruit comes out of Wisconsin once every few years, so if you want to restrict your recruiting to those kinds of players, you are ultimately going to over extend yourself.
First of all, here was your original quote:
Quote from: The Equalizer on February 21, 2012, 09:42:39 AMI still don't understand why so many people don't want a player like Kevon on the team.
Then I asked who specifically didn't want Looney on the team. Now...let's address your wholly inadequate response:
Quote from: The Equalizer on February 21, 2012, 02:34:58 PMThere were a ton of comments over the past several days, all professing a similar sentiment: We don't want those top-level recruits. The reasons follow a litany of "they don't work hard enough", "they play as individuals--not part of a team", "rankings are irrelevant", "they're one-and-done" "not every elite player turns out to be a star", "sometimes an unknown player turns out to be better" etc. etc. etc.
That's you making up comments. Quotation marks are for when you can actually attribute a quote to someone. Just saying "a ton of comments over the past several days" (see, that's how you use quotation marks) doesn't make it so.
Quote from: The Equalizer on February 21, 2012, 09:42:39 AM
I do too. He'd be a great addition to the team.
I still don't understand why so many people don't want a player like Kevon on the team. In the last week I've taken more than my fair share of crap from those who would rather have unraked and unknown players with a chips on their shoulder, rather than a potential #1 player nationall from our own backyard.
I can think of two possible options they would make such comments:
1. These people truly don't prefer players like Kevon Looney and would truly rather have the non-elite recruits.
2. They secretly want players like Kevon Looney, but refuse to say so publicly out of fear their expectations won't be met.
Frankly, that second option make our fans sound just like those UW fans who claim "Bo cooled " on whatever recruit he doesn't land.
For some reason, people view it as an affront to Buzz to even mention that Buzz hasn't landed any such players. They seem hell bent on destroying anyone who might suggest that we would be better if we landed such players. They instead insist on pretending that we never really wanted such players in the first place--to the point where they won't even admit that Buzz had recruited such players before moving on to the guys he eventually signed.
All of this sounds like conspiracy theory stuff. Far more often, I see people mentioning that Buzz has landed a five-star (Vander), or that he's consistently brought top-100 talent (Cadougan, Williams, Blue, Jones, Wilson, Anderson, Taylor) rather than saying he isn't getting anyone of note. Quite simply, what you're saying doesn't seem to jive with anything I've read on here or any other MU message board ever.
Now we get to the quotes...or that's what I assume. No quotation marks, and not attributed to anyone. Are these real quotes, or just more stuff you're making up? Regardless, let's dissect them and see what they say about Kevon Looney, since you specifically referenced that Marquette fans on this website don't want him.
Quote from: The Equalizer on February 21, 2012, 09:42:39 AM"Recruit rankings don't matter at all. Recruiting players that are going to flourish in your program is what matters."
I don't see how that says anything about Looney. It says that you want players that fit in. I assume that whomever wrote this would want Looney if he wanted to fit into our system. Blue was highly rated and fits, is anyone (other than ErickDJ08) complaining about him? Deonte Burton and Steve Taylor are both highly rated, are people decrying their recruitments? No, because they look like they have a good chance to flourish in our program.
Quote from: The Equalizer on February 21, 2012, 09:42:39 AM"Maybe what makes our team better is that we have less of the prima donna wannas that are on UCONN and others? Our guys play as a team, not as individuals."
Again, no mention of Looney. And I think this is true. We have hard workers. That includes hard workers that are 2-star recruits, 3-star recruits, 4-star recruits, 5-star recruits, and JUCO All-Americans. Doesn't matter where you come from, if you're willing to put ego aside and play as a team, we'll have you.
Quote from: The Equalizer on February 21, 2012, 09:42:39 AM"Just keep getting the DJOs, JFBs, and Jae Crowders of the world and let the other schools fight over the one and dones."
This is the first thing that almost references Looney...but almost only counts in horseshoes and hand grenades, and again, no attribution, so there's no way to know if it came from a poster on this website, but who says Looney is a one-and-done?
Quote from: The Equalizer on February 21, 2012, 09:42:39 AM"Who cares how many damn stars Rivals gave our recruits. Look at our team right now. One man's trash is another's treasure."
This is referencing past recruits, not future ones. Just because Crowder and DJO weren't 5-star players doesn't mean they aren't good. That holds true across many programs. But it doesn't say that we don't want Buzz to pursue highly rated players going forward. Again, a complete waste of a quote by you.
Quote from: The Equalizer on February 21, 2012, 09:42:39 AM"Probably not the best time to lament the make-up of our roster or Buzz's judge of talent. Wouldn't trade this team... very talented and hard-working with lots of heart. They buy into the program and succeed... that is more important than a player's arbitrary extra 50 spots "in recruiting ranking."
Nothing...about...Looney...this is becoming a recurring theme in your so-called quotes. Also nothing about recruiting going forward, just saying that Buzz is a good talent evaluator. Interestingly, Buzz is known to be actively recruiting a number of Milwaukee guys, including Looney. As this person seems to trust Buzz's talent judgment, I assume he would support and trust Buzz recruiting Looney.
Quote from: The Equalizer on February 21, 2012, 09:42:39 AM"This really has got to be one of the dumbests threads, especially timing wise, that I've seen on here in some time. We've gotten our share of highly rated recruits, they're just not our best players."
Not about Looney. How many times will I have to reiterate that? How many different ways can I reiterate that? Maybe that should be my focus in this post, to point out in as many different ways as possible that NOTHING IN THIS SENTENCE IS ABOUT KEVON LOONEY.
Quote from: The Equalizer on February 21, 2012, 09:42:39 AM"Consistent recruiting and high class players will get us to the promised land. Elite players are not necessary nor do they always bring a championship."
Does this reference Looney? I would say no. He's a high class player. That means he could help get us to the promised land. It's true that teams don't always need elite recruits to get to the Final Four (Butler, George Mason, VCU) and that teams that do get elite recruits don't always win titles (Kentucky under Cal, Ohio State under Matta, Louisville under Pitino), but this person does want high class players, which means he wants a guy like Looney.
Quote from: The Equalizer on February 21, 2012, 09:42:39 AM"The top players aren't looking to be part of a good "team". They want to be "Da Man". MU's teams play without great individual talent, but a great blending of talent. If I'm a Top 10 guy I want to go where the team revolves around me."
At the moment, Looney's rated outside the top-ten, so again, this isn't talking about him. And as we're looking for a quote where someone says they specifically don't want Kevon Looney, you're swinging at the fourth strike here anyway. But either way, I think there's an element of truth to this, in the way that Buzz wants team first guys. Is that maybe why we didn't press harder for Quincy Miller? I think Buzz's top priority are guys that are willing to work in the system. That doesn't preclude highly-rated recruits, but it only allows for highly rated recruits that want to work hard and play the role that is set out for them. Vander Blue was a 5-star recruit that was willing to do all of that, and he is flourishing under Buzz.
Quote from: The Equalizer on February 21, 2012, 09:42:39 AM"While it would be nice to see more 4 and 5's coming to Marquette, with the 4 and 5's comes some of the "drama" and "bs" that is associated with them. Plus, how many would be able to make it through Buzz's boot camp? I'll gladly take the 3 and low 4s looking to prove something."
So far, every 4 and 5 that came to Marquette has made it through Boot Camp. Every one. And this person also said "it would be nice to see more 4 and 5's coming to Marquette" (again, proper use of quotes). That means he wants guys like Looney, provided they don't bring along drama and are willing to work through Boot Camp. My hope is that Looney is that type of guy, the kind that wants to be part of a team, improve his game, and become a better player at Marquette, while also hopefully using it as a launching pad to his NBA career. And I'd be that whomever wrote this would feel the same way, especially as they specifically mentioned a desire for more elite recruits.
Quote from: The Equalizer on February 21, 2012, 09:42:39 AM"I would much rather have a completely underrated player with a chip on his shoulder who comes in and works his ass off to get better"
This is a fragment, so it's irrelevant. The person would rather have an underrated player than what? Than a lazy underrated player? Than a woefully overhyped player? Than Lebron James? Without a completed comparison, there's no way to properly frame this quote, and thus no way for it to be relevant.
Quote from: The Equalizer on February 21, 2012, 09:42:39 AM"Kid goes to MU he is a 3-4 star; goes to UNC, Duke, Kentucky or Kansas that same kid is 4-5 star. Ranking don't mean anything."
Oh man...you really, really,
really don't understand this, do you. The argument here is that the player isn't rated as highly specifically BECAUSE he picked Marquette over those schools. When they pick the McDonald's All-Americans, is it any surprise that most of them seem to be headed to Duke, UNC, Kentucky, and UCLA? It's because those are blue-blood programs, those school names put butts in seats and eyes on the tube, and the person is saying that the rating has more to do with the school than the player.
Take Mitch McGary, for instance. He was a lowly rated player when Marquette first got in on him. Then, he started getting interest from UNC, Duke, Kentucky, and all the big boys. His recruiting ranking shot up. Suddenly, he goes from being a fringe 3-4 star player to the #2 player in his class, a bonafide 5-star prospect, and maybe a one-and-done (or none-and-done) and possibly the best recruit in the country. So McGary declares for Michigan...and what happens? His ranking drops. Because he picked a school that hasn't been high-profile for close to 20 years and is better known for football. Do you think McGary would have been invited to the McDonald's AA game if he had picked UNC? I guaran-damn-tee it.
Look at the McDonald's 2012 roster (http://espn.go.com/high-school/boys-basketball/story/_/id/7549076/2012-mcdonald-all-american-game-boys-rosters). Check out where those recruits are going to school. The only players not going to prototype blue-blood schools are Kris Dunn at Providence and Marcus Smart at Oklahoma State, largely because this class is devoid of good point guards. You could argue NC State, but they have some trophies in the cabinet, and it's a great story for the underdog Tobacco Road team to have 3 McD's AA recruits.
What about Steven Adams, ESPN's #6 recruit going to the unfashionable Pitt Panthers? Or Danuel House, the #16 recruit going to Houston? Sam Dekker at Wisconsin? Robert Carter at Georgia Tech? All of them are rated higher than Perry Ellis, but there's no way they leave out the top recruit from Kansas.
Bottom line, recruiting rankings are rigged to favor the blue blood schools. Just look at the story of Ivan Renko (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivan_Renko), who became an overnight sensation when Bob Knight announced he had received a commitment from the budding Yugoslavian star. If a big-time coach is interested or signs a guy, his rankings will be inflated, whether he's a good player, a bad player, or if he doesn't even exist in the first place.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on February 21, 2012, 01:40:24 PM
Before we get too far ahead of ourselves, back in 2009 we had people on this board that said that Junior Lomomba was "ahead" of both Vander Blue and Tim Maymon at that point in his career. And even if that was the case, he certainly wasn't by the end of his HS career.
Long time between now and then. Who knows how these guys will pan out?
To be clear, I wasn't suggesting that I expected these high school kids to be better than the likes of Mayo, Juan, or the Taylors. But watch the tape man, all four of those guys I named are high major talents that we should want at Marquette.
You work it, Brew!
I think it's safe to say that most folks who visit this site would love Buzz to reel in some 5-stars. Those who say otherwise are rationalizing: Well, I'd rather have guys who get along. (As if the two are mutually exclusive and it's impossible to find 5-stars who also are good teammates.) They also are sticking up for a coach they have grown to like and respect.
All that being said, I think if one looks at the real meaning to what folks on this board are saying, it's this: "Yes, I'd love a 5-star recruit to choose Marquette every once in a while, but Buzz seems to have a knack for finding diamonds in the rough and helping them become good or even excellent players. So I'm satisfied with the kinds of kids Buzz has brought in and I have faith that Buzz will be able to keep winning with them."
Look at the exchange 84, err, the Equalizer had with Wadesworld (can't remember the thread) a few days ago. Then imagine 84 picking and choosing quotes out of context (shocking, right?) to suit his inaccurate-presented-as-fact original statement in this thread. That's what 84 was referring to when he mentioned several others.
/may not be entirely accurate but I'm pretty sure that's where I remember seeing some of the paraphrased quotes he offers as proof of his inaccuate-presented-as-fact original statement
Quote from: brewcity77 on February 21, 2012, 11:20:33 AM
Maybe I missed something, but who said they don't want Kevon Looney on the team? Who specifically said that they would rather have an unranked player than Looney?
If it was said, so be it. But I don't believe anyone wouldn't want Looney at Marquette. He's a perfect fit for us, is in our back yard, and would help continue the tradition of keeping top-flight Milwaukee talent home that Deonte Burton is trying to start.
So who said it? Who said "I'd rather take a nobody over Kevon Looney"? Because I don't believe anyone said that.
It was the same people who said MU doesn't want Jabari Parker or Kendrick Nunn.
Brew, that was awesome. Completely done correctly with intuitive research.
I go with Tower and the JUCO's. They have been the difference under the Buzz regime, just as a five star would have instant impact.
I got ripped in a thread a few weeks ago about the loss of DJO and Crowder next year and who is going to fill the void. Their play in the last two weeks has been incredible and I don't know how they make up the loss of the two JUCO's.
Quote from: AWegrzyn17 on February 21, 2012, 03:52:28 PM
To be clear, I wasn't suggesting that I expected these high school kids to be better than the likes of Mayo, Juan, or the Taylors. But watch the tape man, all four of those guys I named are high major talents that we should want at Marquette.
You are likely right....but that's exactly what many, including bma, said about Lomomba.
Quote from: nyg on February 21, 2012, 06:06:39 PM
Brew, that was awesome. Completely done correctly with intuitive research.
I go with Tower and the JUCO's. They have been the difference under the Buzz regime, just as a five star would have instant impact.
I got ripped in a thread a few weeks ago about the loss of DJO and Crowder next year and who is going to fill the void. Their play in the last two weeks has been incredible and I don't know how they make up the loss of the two JUCO's.
Buzz said it in a post-game presser a week or two ago: gotta bring in two more to replace them. Totally agree! Our JUCO pipeline is amazing. Every one of them (with the exception of Fulce due to injury) either met (Buycks) or greatly exceeded (JFB, DJO, JFC) expectations and have been the major contributors to a great run the past three years. We need
MORE JUCO's not less as people last year were whining about. Sending two more to the league this year should give us one of the first picks of that litter, which is a competitive advantage a small school in MKE needs to exploit to the maximum.
Yeah, but we are out of scholarships for the next two years (assuming Otule gets a 6th year). Though I accept that transfers are an inevitable part of basketball, I would rather not start that conversation.
Its been started long ago
Quote from: brewcity77 on February 21, 2012, 03:51:17 PM
First of all, here was your original quote:
Every quote was real. If you searched you would have easily found them. Or you could have asked me for the links. Ironically you're the one that fabricated his story.
Second, I never said anybody called out Kevon specifically. I said a lot of them have said in general that they don't want people LIKE Kevon--i.e. the top 25 elite HS recruits.
There's a big difference there--but in your rush to try and attack, you didn't read closely enough.
My view --stated a few days ago-- can be summed up here:
Quote from: The Equalizer on February 17, 2012, 01:09:31 PM
I truly hope that Buzz can pull in a top 10 guy. I really do. But my need to defend Buzz at all costs isn't going to get me to pretend alongside you that some guy ranked outside the top 100 is really just as good as Kevon Looney or Tyus Jones.
You'll note that I didn't get a lot of suport for the comment. At best, there were the hopeful
Buzz will get it done in the future. At worst, there were those I quoted that seemed hostile to the idea that we should crack our current ceiling, such as this:
Quote from: wadesworld on February 18, 2012, 03:50:11 PM
Yeah. A couple posters on here seem to obsess over recruiting rankings and stars. News flash: a player's basketball abilities, attitude, and work ethic makes a kid a good basketball player in college, not some meaningless number next to his name on a piece of paper or website created by some guy who has seen the kid play once, tops. If it was up to people like The Equalizer and Erick, they might as well not even play a season. Just get recruiting classes, take the rankings of all the guys on each team and average out their rankings, and whoever has the highest ranked players on average wins the National Championship.
I would much rather have a completely underrated player with a chip on his shoulder who comes in and works his ass off to get better (Mayo, Gardner) than a guy ranked in the top 10 who feels he is entitled to everything and doesn't need to work for anything (Birch, formerly of Pitt). DJO, Crowder, Butler, Buycks, etc. were not ranked coming into Marquette since they were JUCO players. Man, those guys are awful. I can't stand that we have players like them rather than 5 star recruits!
Putting aside the obvious false premises (not every underrated player works hard, not every top 25 players is a lazy bum) landing a top 10/top 25 player doesn't reduce the value of our other players--it would elevate us.
Look, I agree with you that Buzz has brought in some great players. But there is nothing wrong with admitting that he seems to have hit the same apparent ceiling that Crean hit. Our best incoming guys are ranked in the 30s. Buzz has tried to get the higher rated players, but he hasn't landed them yet.
Quote from: The Equalizer on February 21, 2012, 10:21:17 PM
Look, I agree with you that Buzz has brought in some great players. But there is nothing wrong with admitting that he seems to have hit the same apparent ceiling that Crean hit. Our best incoming guys are ranked in the 30s. Buzz has tried to get the higher rated players, but he hasn't landed them yet.
Holy sh*t man. If you can't see that Buzz has no problem filling the roster with plus talent while Crean could barely get a starting 5 of Big East quality players then I don't know what to tell you. At the moment we have two top 100 underclassmen on the bench. Before Otule & Gardner went down (our two best centers since RJax, one of which is a top 5 Big East defensive 5, the other of which is a top 5 Big East offensive 5), we were bringing a top 50 guy off the bench in JWilson. And Buzz "seems to have hit the same ceiling the Crean hit?" Wow, four classes in and you're willing to go there, especially when he has a commit from a borderline 5* for his 5th class already? Christ you're a tool. I can't believe I wasted 2 minutes of my life dignifying you with a response. It will be the last time I do so.
Quote from: The Equalizer on February 21, 2012, 10:21:17 PM
Every quote was real. If you searched you would have easily found them. Or you could have asked me for the links. Ironically you're the one that fabricated his story.
Second, I never said anybody called out Kevon specifically. I said a lot of them have said in general that they don't want people LIKE Kevon--i.e. the top 25 elite HS recruits.
There's a big difference there--but in your rush to try and attack, you didn't read closely enough.
My view --stated a few days ago-- can be summed up here:
You'll note that I didn't get a lot of suport for the comment. At best, there were the hopeful Buzz will get it done in the future. At worst, there were those I quoted that seemed hostile to the idea that we should crack our current ceiling, such as this:
Putting aside the obvious false premises (not every underrated player works hard, not every top 25 players is a lazy bum) landing a top 10/top 25 player doesn't reduce the value of our other players--it would elevate us.
Look, I agree with you that Buzz has brought in some great players. But there is nothing wrong with admitting that he seems to have hit the same apparent ceiling that Crean hit. Our best incoming guys are ranked in the 30s. Buzz has tried to get the higher rated players, but he hasn't landed them yet.
Talk about fabricating a story. Where in that quotation do I say all 5 stars are lazy bums? I don't see it. Must be missing it. If you want to, you know, read the quote that you included from me, it says "
I would much rather have a completely underrated player with a chip on his shoulder who wants to come in and work his ass off to get better (Mayo, Gardner) than a guy ranked in the top 10 who feels he is entitled to everything and doesn't need to work for anything (Birch, formerly of Pitt)." I completely stand by this statement. Do you have trouble with your reading comprehension? Where do I say that "every underrated player works hard" or that "every top 25 player is a lazy bum?" Again, I don't see it. I said I would rather have a guy like Gardner or Mayo, who are underrated players who come in and play above their almighty recruiting ranking ::) than a guy like Birch, who is a McDonald's All American who hardly played on a Pitt team having a very down year before transferring out after 1 semester. Maybe you would have rather had that type of recruit, since he was ranked so highly, than a lower ranked player who outplays his ranking (and outplays the players ranked above him, like Birch)? That's your opinion and you're entitled to it, if you want.
Your reading comprehension creates a ton of issues in your arguments. If there is a guy who is a great basketball player who is going to come to Marquette and work his ass off every day to get better and is going to compete for everything, that is the guy I want. If he is ranked the best recruit in the nation, great, I want him. If he is ranked as a 2 star and Buzz sees what he needs to see, then great, I want him. Rankings do not mean anything. Again, a players attitude, work ethic, and ability, not a number next to a name, is what makes a player a good player. Does that mean I don't want the 1st ranked player, if he's going to come in and work his ass off for everything he wants? If that's how you comprehend that, I wish you the best of luck because you are hopeless.
Quote from: The Equalizer on February 21, 2012, 10:21:17 PMLook, I agree with you that Buzz has brought in some great players. But there is nothing wrong with admitting that he seems to have hit the same apparent ceiling that Crean hit. Our best incoming guys are ranked in the 30s. Buzz has tried to get the higher rated players, but he hasn't landed them yet.
Are you <expletive> insane? Buzz has been here four years. Four! Crean was here nearly a decade! And I don't think you fully understand the "ceiling" that Crean hit. That really only has to do with recruiting a top-100 big man.
Discounting their first season, as Crean took over too late to really get a full 1999 recruiting class and Buzz took over too late to get a full 2008 recruiting class (despite landing future NBA player Jimmy Butler), let's look at similar points of their careers, including either RSCI rankings, star-rankings, or JC status:
- TC Year 1 (2000): 85 Scott Merritt, 4* Odartey Blankson, 3* Terry Sanders, 3* Dwyane Wade
- BW Year 1 (2009): 47 Junior Cadougan, 67 Erik Williams, 73 Jeronne Maymon, JCAA Darius Johnson-Odom, JCAA Dwight Buycks
.
Crean brought in a top-25 recruiting class, headlined by a pair of four-star bigs and punctuated by a little known partial qualifier named Dwyane Wade. Buzz also brought in a top-25 class, led by Marquette's highest rated recruit since Dominic James (Cadougan) and rounded out by a pair of JUCO players that would go on to play major roles here.
- TC Year 2 (2001): 40 Travis Diener, 3* Ron Howard, 3* Todd Townsend, 3* Kevin Menard, Robert Jackson
- BW Year 2 (2010): 48 Vander Blue, 74 Jamail Jones, 3* Reggie Smith, 3* Davante Gardner, JCAA Jae Crowder
.
Similar classes again, with Buzz getting the slight edge. Both guys brought in a top-50 in-state player, both guys brought in a trio of 3-star or better recruits (with RSCI 74 Jones clearly being the highest regarded of the six), and both brought in highly sought after transfers, with Crean getting Mississippi State starting center Robert Jackson and Buzz getting the most sought-after JUCO in the land in Jae Crowder.
- TC Year 3 (2002): 57 Steve Novak, 4* Joe Chapman, 4* Chris Grimm, 3* Karon Bradley, 2* Mike Kinsella
- BW Year 3 (2011): 81 Juan Anderson, 3* Todd Mayo, 3* Derrick Wilson, Jake Thomas
.
Crean brought in a dream class in 2002. From 1-5, he had Bradley, Chapman, Novak, Kinsella, and Grimm. Granted, Kinsella had to go JUCO, but the other four were all fairly well-regarded. Buzz didn't have as many scholarships to work with, but landed a top-100 of his own in Anderson, and two late-blooming prep stars in Mayo and Wilson. He also added a starting SG from another D1 team as a walk-on in Thomas. I would definitely give Crean the edge in terms of these comparative classes, though in the long run, Grimm never met expectations, and Kinsella went JUCO before coming to Marquette, so it wouldn't surprise me at all if Buzz's class ends up the more productive of the two.
- TC Year 4 (2003): 71 Dameon Mason, 3* Brandon Bell, 2* Carlton Christian, 2* James Matthews, JCAA Marcus Jackson
- BW Year 4 (2012): 73 Steve Taylor, 3* Jamal Ferguson, 3* Aaron Durley, JCAA TJ Taylor
.
Before anyone screams about Durley or TJ, I'm using Scout's rankings for Durley and with Taylor putting up 14.2 ppg/4.9 rpg/2.9 apg, I think he's at least going to get honorable mention JCAA status. Anyway...both had solid classes. One well-regarded centerpiece, one high-level JUCO transfer, and a couple nice pieces in between. But I would argue that with Christian and Matthews, this is where Crean's "wall" began.
- TC Year 5 (2004): 3* Ousmane Barro, 3* Ryan Amoroso, Niv Berkowitz, JCAA Mike Kinsella
- BW Year 5 (2013): 37 Deonte Burton
.
TC wall is in full effect here. In the afterglow of the Final Four, it was great to get Kinsella back, but I think he expected more than Barro and Amoroso. Both were decent recruits, but they're the kind of guys he expected to fill a class out with, not headline it. And then, of course, there was Niv Berkowitz...don't think I really need to say anything there. Buzz, on the other hand, has brought in Burton, and while RSCI doesn't have rankings out yet, I used the average of three of their sources (Dave Telep, Jerry Meyer, and Scout) to estimate where he'll be at. Regardless, if Buzz could use one scholarship that roughly was the equal of the most highly-regarded player TC ever brought in (RSCI 36 James) I'd definitely call that a more successful class. In addition, if a spot opens up, we're still in on Kendrick Nunn, Nick King, Duane Wilson, and others.
- TC Year 6 (2005): 36 Dominic James, 57 Jerel McNeal, 61 Wesley Matthews, 3* Dwight Burke, 3* Matt Mortenson, JCAA Jamil Lott
- Buzz Year 6 (2014): <None Yet>
.
Crean brought in a great trio of guards, but where he's hit the wall is in recruiting the great big man to compliment them. Burke and Lott were 6'8" and 6'7" respectively. Sure, he had Barro and Novak still here, but neither were the type of big bruiser that Jackson had been for that one glorious season or that he hoped Grimm would be. Mortenson, of course, never played for Marquette. It will be interesting to see what Buzz does with this class. He is slated to have four scholarships available (Blue, JW, Jones, Gardner) and we are in on numerous four and five star recruits, including Kevon Looney, Andrew Wiggins, Theo Pinson, Tyus Jones, Cliff Alexander, Noah Vonleh, JaQuan Lyle, LJ Peak, and Paul White. If Buzz could land just one or two of those guys, it'd come pretty close to matching Crean's Three Amigos class. Honestly, the key might be getting to an Elite Eight or Final Four this year, so go Warriors!
- TC Year 7 (2006): 4* Lazar Hayward, 3* David Cubillan, 3* Anthony Green, JCAA Trend Blackledge
- BW Year 7 (2015): <None Yet>
.
Hayward and Cubillan were the prizes of this class, but Blackledge was brought in specifically due to the inability to recruit a top-level big man. Green never made it to D1. Buzz obviously hasn't recruited this class yet, but I just noticed that Hoop Scoop, one of the RSCI mainstays, currently has Dominican prospect Diamond Stone as the #8 player in the entire nation. Maybe that's Buzz's shot at getting that prized highly recruited big that Crean never landed.
- TC Year 8 (2007): 91 Trevor Mbakwe, 3* Scott Christopherson, 2* Patrick Hazel
- BW Year 8 (2016): <None Yet>
.
Shortly before departing, Crean landed what probably could have been that guy he was always looking for. Would it have worked out for Mbakwe if Crean had stayed? Who knows. I'm sure Christopherson would have stayed (which would have been for the better) and Hazel may have as well (which would have been for the worse). Regardless, Mbakwe was the highest-rated big since Merritt (Novak was always more of a wing, not counting R-Jax as a 1-year transfer) and it took 7 years to get from point A to point B. That was the ceiling Crean hit. In addition, he was looking for the true top-level center, and Mbakwe was more of a power forward. No point in mentioning 2016 for Buzz, it's too far out.
- TC Year 9 (2008): 73 Tyshawn Taylor, 88 Nick Williams, 2* Chris Otule, JCAA Joe Fulce
- BW Year 9 (2017): <None Yet>
.
Taylor and Williams were two more solid recruits, but again the big man is lacking. Interestingly enough, there was a solid big man and PF (had he stayed healthy) in that class in Otule and Fulce, but both were Buzz recruits. Of course we know what happened with Taylor and Williams.
What's interesting to note is how Crean has done since getting to Indiana. Many perceive he left because while he had no problem getting consistent guards and wings (Diener, Novak, Mason, James, McNeal, Matthews, Hayward, Taylor, Williams) he didn't have nearly the success at landing high-profile front court players (Merritt, Mbakwe). When he arrived at Indiana, he brought in RSCI #45 Christian Watford, more of a 3 than a 4, but taller than any previous top-100 recruit he had brought in to Marquette other than Merritt. He followed that up with 5-star big man Cody Zeller in 2011, RSCI #35 Hanner Perea in 2012, another 3* in Luke Fischer coming in 2013, and 5* Trey Lyles in 2014. Whatever struggles he had here he seems to have corrected at Indiana, but it's still far to early to project similar struggles on to Buzz, especially with guys like Alexander, White, and Stone in our sights.
My only beef with Crean's recruiting was the big drop from the starting 5 and lack on a center or even a tall guy, and maybe being short at most positions. When he had playing time to sell and an open position, he could recruit for it... otherwise, he had trouble and he couldn't keep non-starters around very well who didn't get a lot of playing time. Too often we had no legitimate back up players.. big drop off from the starters, and too often we were undersized at many positions. Those were concerns.
That is my perception anyway.
Buzz, in a short time, has got the starters, and gotten high major non-starters to commit. Buzz doesn't seem to need an open position to get high major recruits. He also isn't recruiting a bunch of undersized players. I see a big step up with Buzz, in that even with an injury or two, we still have a competitive team.
As far as coaching is concerned. Hands down Buzz wins out for player development and just putting the team in a winning position (with Gardner he was used correctly, without Gardner the team changes philosophy and still wins). He has been incredible. No slight on Crean, but Buzz is unique and we sure are lucky to have him.
Finally, Crean had MSU to sell when he came in. Buzz, didn't have the same base to sell from for recruits. Now Buzz can sell himself and what he has done. Buzz is just getting started, look out because I don't think there is a ceiling for Buzz!
Quote from: GOO on February 22, 2012, 10:03:25 AM
Finally, Crean had MSU to sell when he came in. Buzz, didn't have the same base to sell from for recruits. Now Buzz can sell himself and what he has done. Buzz is just getting started, look out because I don't think there is a ceiling for Buzz!
No slight on Buzz, but he had a LOT more advantages in recruiting when he came in.
Big East, the Al, chartered flights for the team, Wade/Jordan brand, a recent final 4, etc. etc.
He didn't have a high profile asst. job to "sell", but had more than enough other things to sell to recruits.
Quote from: Jamailman on February 21, 2012, 10:50:20 PM
Holy sh*t man. If you can't see that Buzz has no problem filling the roster with plus talent while Crean could barely get a starting 5 of Big East quality players then I don't know what to tell you. At the moment we have two top 100 underclassmen on the bench. Before Otule & Gardner went down (our two best centers since RJax, one of which is a top 5 Big East defensive 5, the other of which is a top 5 Big East offensive 5), we were bringing a top 50 guy off the bench in JWilson. And Buzz "seems to have hit the same ceiling the Crean hit?" Wow, four classes in and you're willing to go there, especially when he has a commit from a borderline 5* for his 5th class already? Christ you're a tool. I can't believe I wasted 2 minutes of my life dignifying you with a response. It will be the last time I do so.
Do you mind if I address your comment reasonably and without the namecalling?
First off, I respectfully reject your initial premise. I think the talent levels on the 2006-8 teams were roughly equivalent to what we've had in 2009 through 2012. When you start out with the Amigos and Hayward, its hard for me to agree with the premise that we "could barely get a starting 5 of big east quality players" In reality, we played 8 or 9 deep while finishing 4th or 5th in the Big East.
While I sense your anger or my point about hitting the ceiling, let's cycle back to my original premise:
True or false--the highest ranked recruit (per the RSCI consensus) Buzz has landed was #40 Jamil Wilson (a transfer), followed by #48 Junior Cadougan and #48 Vander Blue?
True or false--the highest ranked recruit Crean landed was #33 Robert Jackson (a transfer), followed by #36 Dominic James and #40 Travis Diener.
Given the correct answer to both questions is true, then I cannot understand either the basis for your anger, or the basis for your counter argument.
My observation is that neither Crean nor Buzz have been able to crack that upper fourth of HS recruits. And Buzz has not just 4 years--he's has five classes signed, and a sixth is already full (2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012, 2013). In six classes, we don't have such a player, and he is recruitng for 2014.
Second, can anyone offer any reasonably counter-argument to any of the following comparisions (none of this "Crean recruited nothing but Blackledge types"):
--Both coaches have benefitted from lower ranked or unranked players who's performance surprised by "overachieving" (Wade, Hayward for Crean, the JUCOs for Buzz).
--Both have had top 100 players who have perfomed as expected (Amigos for Crean, Blue, Wilson for Buzz).
--Both coaches have had some players that didn't perform as expected (exampls Bell & Christian for Crean, Maymon & EWilliams for Buzz)
--Both have recruited players that they shouldn't have (Berkowitz, Roseboro)
--Both have managed to field teams that have made the NCAA tournement while staying in the top half of the Big East standings.
My point isn't to make an absoulte determination of who is better--my point is that the profiles of the types of players and performance of both Crean and Buzz have been very very similar.
Those who want to credit Buzz for DJO and Crowder's unexpectedly strong performance don't seem to want to give similar credit for Wade and Hayward.
Those that want to credit Buzz for the performance of Jamil Wilson or Vander Blue don't seem to want to give considration for Steve Novak or Travis Diener.
I'll grant that Buzz has had less time than Crean--but he also had the advantages of --coming to MU with prior HC experience
--serving as an MU asssitant for a year
--recruiting into the Big East for his entire tenure versus six years of CUSA
--taking over an established program rather than rebuilding after a losing season.
As an aside, I'm not sure time in the job is all that relevant, as Scott Drew and Josh Pastner have both been able to demonstrate.
Quote from: wadesworld on February 21, 2012, 10:50:49 PM
Talk about fabricating a story. Where in that quotation do I say all 5 stars are lazy bums? I don't see it. Must be missing it. If you want to, you know, read the quote that you included from me, it says "I would much rather have a completely underrated player with a chip on his shoulder who wants to come in and work his ass off to get better (Mayo, Gardner) than a guy ranked in the top 10 who feels he is entitled to everything and doesn't need to work for anything (Birch, formerly of Pitt)." I completely stand by this statement. Do you have trouble with your reading comprehension? Where do I say that "every underrated player works hard" or that "every top 25 player is a lazy bum?" Again, I don't see it. I said I would rather have a guy like Gardner or Mayo, who are underrated players who come in and play above their almighty recruiting ranking ::) than a guy like Birch, who is a McDonald's All American who hardly played on a Pitt team having a very down year before transferring out after 1 semester. Maybe you would have rather had that type of recruit, since he was ranked so highly, than a lower ranked player who outplays his ranking (and outplays the players ranked above him, like Birch)? That's your opinion and you're entitled to it, if you want.
If I understand you then, you weren't providing the names of Mayo/Gardner and Birch as being representive of the work ethic or expectations of unranked and highly ranked players respectively.
Not sure if this was your intent, but by selecting the players you did, you created a biased comparsion--thus giving unranked players an illusory advantage.
I guess I should have specified this: Assuming that all other things like willingness-to-work and lack-of-ego are equal, would you agree that a top 25 or top 10 player is far more likely to elevate a team's play than an unranked player would be?
In other words, would you prefer Gardner or Zellar? Mayo or Austin Rivers? Lets take the willingness to work out of the equation.
Quote from: 2002MUalum on February 22, 2012, 10:28:18 AM
No slight on Buzz, but he had a LOT more advantages in recruiting when he came in.
Big East, the Al, chartered flights for the team, Wade/Jordan brand, a recent final 4, etc. etc.
He didn't have a high profile asst. job to "sell", but had more than enough other things to sell to recruits.
We've been through this all before, but when Crean did have all those things to sell (Big East, AL, recent Final Four, etc.) his recruiting didn't get better, the 2005 class excepted. Many of his best and highest rated recruits - Wade, Diener, Novak, Merritt, Mason - came before those advantages existed or were even well established on the radar.
I read as much of this thread as I could stomach.... and I would like to adress one thing.
i have been around the AAU game for along time and have been around a lot of recruits.
The generalization and comments that "these 5 star players are lazy and entitled" or whatever the stupid comments are just that stupid!. Sure there are the Renardno Sydneys and the Khem Birchs out there and I am sure others can find other example like Jereme Richmond from Illinois etc.
But to say we dont want 5 star recruits becuase they are all like that is really really really stupid.
Stupid not becuase these guys are sooo good, or stupid becuase Buzz could get them to work hard but stupid becuase the vast majority of those kids are not "problems" at all.
They are kids that God blessed with tremendous atleticism but kids that have also busted their ever lovin humps to get where they are. We currently have a young man who is in the top 50 of the Junior class. he is the nicest hardest working kid in that class in the program. Works out 2 hours a day at an incredible level after his HS practices, spends time with the younger kids in the program and is a s nice a young man as you will meet. He also gets excellent grades.
He is what 90% of the 5 star and even 4 star type players are like ...heck 3 and 2 star too for that matter.
Yes there are your jackasses out there just like everywhere and coaches dont have a whole lot of problems finding and avoiding them.
If bUzz was able to attract 5 star players I can assure you the toughness and character of the program would not suffer. A team takes on the culture of it's leader. Buzz will continue to recruit tough high character kids out there. There are alot of good players Buzz will sign the right good players.
Someone had mentioned D'Angelo HArrison. Dont know the kid never met him. We all know we were a finalist for him. The point is we basically signed MAyo becuase we missed on HArrison. Now i think MAyo is going to be a very fine player at MU and help us to put up many victories during a very fine career.
However, their is no doubt that having a HArrison over MAyo this year would have been an upgrade, harrison is putting up phenomenal numbers.
Bottom line is the vast majority of the top rated players are good kids and will fight and scrap like many of the 4 and 3 star kids we have today, but they are better ball players and MU's culture will not change... but we will be even better if we can sign more of them.
to cast all 5 stars as bad apples is extremely ignorant. Guys like Durant, GArnett, D Williams, Kobe, Lebron and theis list goes on far out way the bad apples.
Quote from: brewcity77 on February 22, 2012, 08:11:31 AM
And then, of course, there was Niv Berkowitz...don't think I really need to say anything there.
How dare you sir! How. Dare. You!!
Quote from: Pakuni on February 22, 2012, 12:31:25 PM
We've been through this all before, but when Crean did have all those things to sell (Big East, AL, recent Final Four, etc.) his recruiting didn't get better, the 2005 class excepted. Many of his best and highest rated recruits - Wade, Diener, Novak, Merritt, Mason - came before those advantages existed or were even well established on the radar.
When you line up the BE annoucement against the recruiting calendar, 2005 was actualy the first class we recruited following the BE announcement.
In addition to the Amigos, who were influenced by the BE annoucement, Hayward, Mbakwe, Taylor, NWilliams, EWilliams (verbal), JFulce (JCAA), Otule all committed after entry to the Big East.
Besides all the stuff I've posted about Looney, CD makes the most relevant statement along with those who argue Crean sucked ass.
Quote from: The Equalizer on February 22, 2012, 11:44:01 AM
can anyone offer any reasonably counter-argument to any of the following comparisions (none of this "Crean recruited nothing but Blackledge types"):
--Both coaches have benefitted from lower ranked or unranked players who's performance surprised by "overachieving" (Wade, Hayward for Crean, the JUCOs for Buzz).
--Both have recruited players that they shouldn't have (Berkowitz, Roseboro)
--Both have managed to field teams that have made the NCAA tournement while staying in the top half of the Big East standings
1.Wade and Hayward = 2 in 9 years and both were in some top 100s. Butler, DJO and Crowder = 3 in 4 years and were rated much lower out of high school. Add Mayo and Gardner to the list.
2. Berkowitz, Christian, Menard, Bell, J Matthews, Mortenson, Green, Blackledge and Hazel for Crean. Mbao, Mcmorrow and Roseboro for Buzz (he was left in a position where he was desperate for size)
3.Crean spent four of his 9 years at or below.500 in CUSA
Looking back at Crean's 2003 and 2004 recruiting classes really steamed me.
Recruiting starts early and often so I don't expect sudden recruiting success right after a Final Four appearance, but you gotta hold him accountable for not even getting QUALITY from those two classes.
There wasn't enough ball to go around with Diener and Novak, but seriously: 71 Dameon Mason, 3* Brandon Bell, 2* Carlton Christian, 2* James Matthews, JCAA Marcus Jackson, Barro, Niv, Amoroso, Kinsella?!?
Only MJack and Barro were ANYTHING for MU since they stuck it out!
That's two year's wasted and he set himself up for failure.
Quote from: 77ncaachamps on February 22, 2012, 01:25:13 PM
Looking back at Crean's 2003 and 2004 recruiting classes really steamed me.
Recruiting starts early and often so I don't expect sudden recruiting success right after a Final Four appearance, but you gotta hold him accountable for not even getting QUALITY from those two classes.
There wasn't enough ball to go around with Diener and Novak, but seriously: 71 Dameon Mason, 3* Brandon Bell, 2* Carlton Christian, 2* James Matthews, JCAA Marcus Jackson, Barro, Niv, Amoroso, Kinsella?!?
Only MJack and Barro were ANYTHING for MU since they stuck it out!
That's two year's wasted and he set himself up for failure.
"Recruiting is the lifeblood of a program"
-Buzz Williams
We will never see empty classes like that again, especially not back to back, and ESPECIALLY not after a deep tournament run.
Quote from: Jamailman on February 22, 2012, 01:31:27 PM
"Recruiting is the lifeblood of a program"
-Buzz Williams
We will never see empty classes like that again, especially not back to back, and ESPECIALLY not after a deep tournament run.
Probably not, but it has nothing to do with Buzz. It's because we're in the Big East (with DePaul, S Fla, etc.) and fly charter.
Quote from: Canadian Dimes on February 22, 2012, 12:45:40 PM
I read as much of this thread as I could stomach.... and I would like to adress one thing.
i have been around the AAU game for along time and have been around a lot of recruits.
The generalization and comments that "these 5 star players are lazy and entitled" or whatever the stupid comments are just that stupid!. Sure there are the Renardno Sydneys and the Khem Birchs out there and I am sure others can find other example like Jereme Richmond from Illinois etc.
But to say we dont want 5 star recruits becuase they are all like that is really really really stupid.
Stupid not becuase these guys are sooo good, or stupid becuase Buzz could get them to work hard but stupid becuase the vast majority of those kids are not "problems" at all.
They are kids that God blessed with tremendous atleticism but kids that have also busted their ever lovin humps to get where they are. We currently have a young man who is in the top 50 of the Junior class. he is the nicest hardest working kid in that class in the program. Works out 2 hours a day at an incredible level after his HS practices, spends time with the younger kids in the program and is a s nice a young man as you will meet. He also gets excellent grades.
He is what 90% of the 5 star and even 4 star type players are like ...heck 3 and 2 star too for that matter.
Yes there are your jackasses out there just like everywhere and coaches dont have a whole lot of problems finding and avoiding them.
If bUzz was able to attract 5 star players I can assure you the toughness and character of the program would not suffer. A team takes on the culture of it's leader. Buzz will continue to recruit tough high character kids out there. There are alot of good players Buzz will sign the right good players.
Someone had mentioned D'Angelo HArrison. Dont know the kid never met him. We all know we were a finalist for him. The point is we basically signed MAyo becuase we missed on HArrison. Now i think MAyo is going to be a very fine player at MU and help us to put up many victories during a very fine career.
However, their is no doubt that having a HArrison over MAyo this year would have been an upgrade, harrison is putting up phenomenal numbers.
Bottom line is the vast majority of the top rated players are good kids and will fight and scrap like many of the 4 and 3 star kids we have today, but they are better ball players and MU's culture will not change... but we will be even better if we can sign more of them.
to cast all 5 stars as bad apples is extremely ignorant. Guys like Durant, GArnett, D Williams, Kobe, Lebron and theis list goes on far out way the bad apples.
I agree with most that you say, there is a reason they are 5 star, just look at Kentucky every year. The Harrison/Mayo comparison to me is still up in the air. Harrison plays 30
minutes a game vs. Mayo maybe 15-18. Harrison and Harkness are there main scorers, Mayo is the maybe the third when he is on the court for short spurts of time. Next year
might give you a better picture as I expect Mayo to become one of the top scorers, Jamil Wilson and Mayo should be the go to guys next year.
Quote from: Pakuni on February 22, 2012, 12:31:25 PM
We've been through this all before, but when Crean did have all those things to sell (Big East, AL, recent Final Four, etc.) his recruiting didn't get better, the 2005 class excepted. Many of his best and highest rated recruits - Wade, Diener, Novak, Merritt, Mason - came before those advantages existed or were even well established on the radar.
To clarify my previous post:
I'm responding to this specific thought.
Quote from: GOO on February 22, 2012, 10:03:25 AM
Finally, Crean had MSU to sell when he came in. Buzz, didn't have the same base to sell from for recruits. Now Buzz can sell himself and what he has done. Buzz is just getting started, look out because I don't think there is a ceiling for Buzz!
Buzz didn't have MSU to "sell" at the start of his MU career, but he had plenty of MU specific things to offer recruits when he took the job.
I'm only comparing the STARTING POINT for each the day he stepped on campus. I'm not comparing the results, just the starting point.
Maybe because it's the city, school and weather. Milwaukee is just a small major city in the Midwest compared to NY, LA, etc., weather is cold in winter and the school being located in this environment is not suitable to big
time major recruits. Hate these thoughts but everyone wants to go to the big city these days. Academics could
tie in. Hope Looney stays in Milwaukee.
Quote from: 77ncaachamps on February 22, 2012, 01:25:13 PM
Looking back at Crean's 2003 and 2004 recruiting classes really steamed me.
Recruiting starts early and often so I don't expect sudden recruiting success right after a Final Four appearance, but you gotta hold him accountable for not even getting QUALITY from those two classes.
There wasn't enough ball to go around with Diener and Novak, but seriously: 71 Dameon Mason, 3* Brandon Bell, 2* Carlton Christian, 2* James Matthews, JCAA Marcus Jackson, Barro, Niv, Amoroso, Kinsella?!?
Only MJack and Barro were ANYTHING for MU since they stuck it out!
That's two year's wasted and he set himself up for failure.
Compare the 2004 incoming class to the 2013 incoming class.
MJax--NJCAA compared to TJ Taylor -- (possible) JCAA
#71 Dameon Mason compared to #68 Steve Taylor
3* Brandon Bell compared to 2* Jamal Ferguson
2* Carlton Christian compared to 2* Aaron Durley
As I said, the type of recruits both coaches landed are very very close.
Quote from: The Equalizer on February 22, 2012, 03:50:47 PM
Compare the 2004 incoming class to the 2013 incoming class.
MJax--NJCAA compared to TJ Taylor -- (possible) JCAA
#71 Dameon Mason compared to #68 Steve Taylor
3* Brandon Bell compared to 2* Jamal Ferguson
2* Carlton Christian compared to 2* Aaron Durley
As I said, the type of recruits both coaches landed are very very close.
MJax compared to TJ Taylor? TJ Taylor was much higher ranked out of high school.
Mason & Taylor is a push, except that all Illinois experts said he was headcase and knew he wouldn't stay at one place too long. Taylor is a better recruit.
Brandon Bell and Jamal Ferguson? Ferguson is a three star and consistently ranked in the top 140, same with Brandon Bell
Carlton Christian had no business in a D-I uniform. Durley does.
Not sure why ESPN dumped their rating on TJ TAylor and now have himas a 40, which means yet to be evaluated.
Odd becuase back in 2010 when he was a Oklahoma commit they had him as a 94. really solid rating, equivalant to a top 50-75 recruit
For those livin' west of Lake Michigan and east of Johnson Creek, channel 24 has Hamilton vs Riverside on the tube tonight opposite Idol. Your chance to view the area's Syr., Georgetown, MSU, Tennessee, UW, and MU recruit, Kevon Looney.