Right now, I'd say Boeheim, Brey and Buzz. Boeheim, for obvious reasons. Brey for succeeding without Abromaitis. In comparing Buzz/Brey though (the two likeliest challengers to Boeheim, both challenging without being the best BEast team), which is more impressive: ND's current record without Abromaitis or MU's current record without Otule and Gardner? Sure, Abromaitis is a fantastic talent, but losing 2 centers and not skipping a beat? ND had quite a bit of losses before figuring out how to win without Tim.
Just my 2 cents.
I propose that no awards go to any team or any member of a team or coaching staff of any team who is leaving the Big East. It may not be fair and it may not reflect the true accomplishment, but what the heck, life is not fair. So Jimmy B., no COY for you. I think Brey and Buzz both deserve it. Objectively probably Brey deserves it a bit more at this point but the season isn't over yet. Subjectively, I hate everything Domer, so gotta go with Buzz.
Question: when is the COY award decided/announced? Is it after the Big East Tournament?
Let Bray win it for the 100th time. Obviously does not correlate into any post-season success for him.
I don't think there is any chance that Jim B. gets it with all the crap that went on this summer.
Boeheim shouldn't even be in the conversation because both the media and coaches picked his team to be first. Let's be honest, Boeheim finishing at #1 isn't a "great coaching job" because they were supposed to finish #1.
Marquette was generally picked around #5-6, while Notre Dame was picked #9. So if the standings hold, Buzz is finishing about 3 spots higher than projected while Brey is finishing 6 spots higher than projected. Both without key starting pieces of their lineup. Matching ND is John Thompson, who has his team 6 spots ahead of projections (Predicted 10th, in 4th).
But if the standings were to hold...what about Stan Heath? I know, USF hasn't really beat the cream of the Big East (best win at home over 8th place SHU) but they are 5th in the league after being projected 14th in both polls. If they can finish 12-6 and get a double-bye, which is possible if they win their three home games against unranked teams ('Nova, Cincy, WVU) and steal one on the road (Pitt, 'Cuse, UL) while Georgetown loses three (@ SHU, ND, @ MU), doesn't Heath merit consideration? I'd be hard-pressed, even with a bottom-of-the-barrel schedule, not to give it to a guy who finished 10 spots better than projected, especially as that would be a better finish over projections than Buzz and Brey combined.
I think that between Brey and Buzz... it would fall in Buzz's favor.
I completely agree with socrplar125's thought...
Quote from: socrplar125 on February 15, 2012, 08:46:49 AM
Sure, Abromaitis is a fantastic talent, but losing 2 centers and not skipping a beat?
Abromaitis is a great player to have on your team, but you have 11 other guys on the roster. Losing two guys, who fill the same position- leaving you much shorter than you already are, is a bigger hurdle to clear IMO. Not to mention MU won their preseason tournament (granted ND faced more legitimate squads in theirs).
Even if he doesnt get it this year... it wont be long before Buzz does win it. How could he not? The man consistently gets more out of his team than anyone could ever imagine possible. I think if MU finishes second in the BEast... it should be either Buzz or Boeheim and it should go to Buzz.
If not for the performance of the team this year, for all the LBs he lost.
Lot of bball to be played. Brey, JT III, Heath and Buzz are all in the mix. I've watched Syracuse play 5 or 6 times and they're extremely talented but don't look particularly well coached. Truth told, at times they look disorganized.
Quote from: downtown85 on February 15, 2012, 09:05:30 AM
I propose that no awards go to any team or any member of a team or coaching staff of any team who is leaving the Big East. It may not be fair and it may not reflect the true accomplishment, but what the heck, life is not fair. So Jimmy B., no COY for you. I think Brey and Buzz both deserve it. Objectively probably Brey deserves it a bit more at this point but the season isn't over yet. Subjectively, I hate everything Domer, so gotta go with Buzz.
Question: when is the COY award decided/announced? Is it after the Big East Tournament?
IMO:If COY is voted upon at or before the end of the regular season. On the odd chance that USF ran the table and got a little help to win the Big East regular season title, Heath wins it no question. Otherwise, Brey wins it hands down if ND finishes top 3 in BE, Buzz would only win if ND crashes & burns from here on out. My guess -- Brey.
If the voting is after the Big East Tournament, I think Buzz or JT-III has a chance to sneak in if ND bows out in their first (i.e. the third) round and MU or GTown wins the tournament. My guess -- Still Brey.
If voting is after the Final Four:
A) Brey wins without question if ND goes to the S16.
B) If ND doesn't go to the S16, then Buzz/JT-III could win it with a Final Four appearance, Boeheim could win it with a title.
C) If MU or G-Town wins the title, Buzz/JT-III wins COY in the Big East regardless of what ND does.
D) If MU, ND & G-Town flame out, Heath would need to go to the Elite 8; otherwise, Boeheim could probably win with just a FF appearance.
E) If none of the above, Brey wins.
My guess -- Still Brey
Buzz said that the only thing he actually votes for when voting for awards is he always votes Brey to win COY. He said when he was writing all of his letters as he was an up and comer that Brey always rewrote him so he will always give him his vote. That would suck Buzz lost by one vote because we know that's who Buzz nominated.
cannot vote for yourself and if your Buzz ...Brey prolly deserves it if you cannot vote for yourself.
Also agree with others ...why reward or polish a coaches resume who is leaving? Help increase the brand equity of a BE coach and school by keeping it in house.
Comparing injuries...Abromitis went down very early in the season, well before conference play started, so ND had a lot more time to get used to playing without him.
We lost Otule not too much later than that but it wasn't definitively season-ending until after conference play started. I think the team was practicing differently in Dec, thinking there was a chance Otule could come back for some of the season. Gardner, obviously, was lost during regular conference play, dramatically changing the team dynamic to now be completely without a true center.
So MU had to regroup a lot faster, and as jaybilaswho? said, we lost two players who filled the same position. I'd argue MU's two injuries were a much bigger hurdle than ND's one injury.
Since the job of coaching in college also includes assembling the players, I'd just give the COY to the coach of the first place team every year. The team that finished in first place did the best total job of getting players and coaching them up. So congratulations, Mr. Boeheim.
Quote from: CTWarrior on February 15, 2012, 01:31:12 PM
Since the job of coaching in college also includes assembling the players, I'd just give the COY to the coach of the first place team every year. The team that finished in first place did the best total job of getting players and coaching them up. So congratulations, Mr. Boeheim.
it's a good thing no one shares your philosophy, otherwise it would be a pretty pointless award.
A coach who employs exclusively a 2-3 zone should never receive any attention for coach of the year - especially when the team has as much athleticism and depth as SU. COY should be about getting every bit you can out of the players you have. I know, based on SU's record both this year and overall under Boeheim that it is difficult to support, but looking at all the talent SU has this year especially, it is hard for me to believe that they would not be better at least showing some different defensive looks. Just seems to me they leave a lot in the tank.
Quote from: 96warrior on February 15, 2012, 12:27:30 PM
Comparing injuries...Abromitis went down very early in the season, well before conference play started, so ND had a lot more time to get used to playing without him.
I think this is where my Buzz vs. Brey comparison comes from. ND was severely underperforming for quite a while while trying to figure out life without Abro. Buzz, however, quickly adjusted and we barely noticed a drop-off (in terms of wins/losses); and he had to do it TWICE! That, to me, speaks that Buzz was the better coach this year when compared to Brey.
Quote from: CTWarrior on February 15, 2012, 01:31:12 PMSince the job of coaching in college also includes assembling the players, I'd just give the COY to the coach of the first place team every year. The team that finished in first place did the best total job of getting players and coaching them up. So congratulations, Mr. Boeheim.
It does, but it doesn't really factor much in COY. And isn't it more impressive to get a top-4 finish out of unregarded players at a school not known for basketball like USF than it is at a hoops Mecca like Syracuse where the school pretty much recruits itself? If USF finishes top-4, that's about 760,000 times as impressive as Syracuse merely living up to expectations.
Quote from: downtown85 on February 15, 2012, 09:05:30 AM
Question: when is the COY award decided/announced? Is it after the Big East Tournament?
If it's like the soccer and volleyball awards (and why wouldn't it be?), the year end awards will be handed out the night before the Big East Tournament starts.
Everyone's favorite poster wrote this a few weeks ago on Cracked Sidewalks
Buzz for COY
http://www.crackedsidewalks.com/2012/01/buzz-williams-for-big-east-coach-of.html
:D
With Georgetown losing to Seton Hall today, USF is now in the double-bye.
Who predicted this?
Stan Heath will be BE COY
Only if they don't go 0-4.
Quote from: Hoopaloop on February 15, 2012, 02:54:50 PM
Everyone's favorite poster wrote this a few weeks ago on Cracked Sidewalks
Buzz for COY
http://www.crackedsidewalks.com/2012/01/buzz-williams-for-big-east-coach-of.html
:D
In the past I've kiddingly called you the Plato to his Socrates. But this is really getting creepy. You've become the Smithers to his Mr. Burns.
Quote from: dwaderoy2004 on February 21, 2012, 08:11:40 PM
Only if they don't go 0-4.
USF's final four games
Wed, Feb 22 @ #2 Syracuse
Sun, Feb 26 vs Cincinnati
Wed, Feb 29 @#17 Louisville
Sat, Mar 3 vs West Virginia
If they go 0 - 4 they won't get he double-bye but Heath might still be COY.
If USF gets a double bye, Heath deserves it. It'll probably take a 3-1 finish and wins against three teams better than what they've beaten all year to do it. A 2-2 finish with a win tomorrow night would also do it for him.
If USF doesn't finish top four and we run the table and finish in second, Buzz deserves it. Over a 17-1 Boeheim and over a 14-4 Brey. Those four are the only ones left that can win it.
Quote from: AnotherMU84 on February 21, 2012, 08:16:43 PM
If they go 0 - 4 they won't get he double-bye but Heath might still be COY.
A 10-8 team whose best win would be by one point at home against Seton Hall? No.
I know what their schedule is. Doesn't change the fact there is no way a coach wins COY with a 10-8 conference record.
Quote from: chapman on February 21, 2012, 08:18:34 PM
A 10-8 team whose best win would be by one point at home against Seton Hall? No.
They were picked 12th preseason so even 10-8 means they are way outperforming.
Syracuse was picked number 1 preseason, because Boheim put together the talent to be a number 1 team. How can you not give him credit for that. Especially, when talent (Uconn) does not always win.
USF is 71 on Kenpom and has an RPI of 50
this is their team profile. Lunardi doesn't even have them in the tourney.
http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/team/_/id/58/south-florida-bulls
To say that Heath deserves anything above a WHISPER for COY in the BEAST is unconscionable.
Beat someone who matters, then tell me about it.
Quote from: Hards_Alumni on February 22, 2012, 07:40:01 AMUSF is 71 on Kenpom and has an RPI of 50
this is their team profile. Lunardi doesn't even have them in the tourney.
http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/team/_/id/58/south-florida-bulls
To say that Heath deserves anything above a WHISPER for COY in the BEAST is unconscionable.
Beat someone who matters, then tell me about it.
I agree that right now they aren't in the tourney, but it's not Heath's fault that 'Nova and Pitt both have had their worst seasons in probably a decade or more and were two of their three mirror opponents. If they get the double-bye, that's a damn impressive feat, especially considering that their only games against Marquette, Syracuse, Georgetown, Louisville, and Notre Dame (the other 5 teams in the top-6 of the Big East) all are on the road. In addition, if Pittsburgh had swept USF instead of the other way around, the Panthers would still be in the mix for an at-large.
It's still too early to give it to Heath, but if he beats Cincy and WVU at home and secures 12-6 and a double-bye, that's really impressive, especially at a school where they've never had a winning Big East record before. If I had a vote, I'd give it to him for that, regardless of what Buzz, Boeheim, and Brey did with teams that were picked to finish in the top half of the league.
I agree that if they go 12-6 and secure the double bye, he should certainly be in the discussion. I just thought it was premature to definitively state Heath is COY (as AnotherMU84 did) when it is entirely conceivable they finish 10-8.
Quote from: karavotsos on February 15, 2012, 01:57:02 PM
A coach who employs exclusively a 2-3 zone should never receive any attention for coach of the year - especially when the team has as much athleticism and depth as SU.
This is just silly. One could argue that a coach who employs a defense every other coach knows but still repeatedly beats all those other coaches is doing a lot right. The coach still has to have his players executing that defense well, both individually and collectively. When Bobby Knight was winning championships, he played nothing but man-to-man. So he wasn't a great coach because he refused to switch defenses and he successfully recruited studs? Oy.
Docking a coach for having great players also is silly. Who ultimately is responsible for bringing those players to his school? And who gets blamed if he fails to bring top players in?
That being said, Boeheim almost surely won't get COY because in all sports at all levels, the award tends to go to those who exceed expectations. For example, Phil Jackson won 11 NBA titles but never was coach of the year!
Only 4 will be seriously considered: Williams, Brey, Heath and Thompson. Feeling here is Brey will win it.
ND wasn't supposed to be especially good even with Abromaitis yet Brey was able to overcome an injury to one of the league's best players. Along the way, Brey gave Syracuse its only loss and also scored several other impressive wins, including a beat-down of Marquette.
It's clearly Brey.
First, he has a track record of winning it. Second, ND was picked mediocre and they will likely finish second. Third, ND's best player featured in a whopping two games. Finally, the Irish winning streak is a much sexier story than Marquette's play.
Quote from: MU82 on February 22, 2012, 08:57:35 AM
Who ultimately is responsible for bringing those players to his school? And who gets blamed if he fails to bring top players in?
Deep pocketed boosters?
Quote from: MU82 on February 22, 2012, 08:57:35 AM
For example, Phil Jackson won 11 NBA titles but never was coach of the year!
Not true. Jackson received COY during the Bulls' 95-96 season when they posted a 72-10 record. (so ridiculous that the guy only received it once and it had to be the record breaking season. deserved it many times)
My bad on Jackson in 95-96. Good catch. Point still valid, though.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on February 21, 2012, 08:15:03 PM
In the past I've kiddingly called you the Plato to his Socrates. But this is really getting creepy. You've become the Smithers to his Mr. Burns.
Not creepy. Creepy would be constantly bringing up the guy a year later. We all know if he wrote something anti-MU you would be the first here to trash him. He writes something positive about Buzz and you find it creepy.
Quote from: Hoopaloop on February 22, 2012, 10:07:14 AM
Not creepy. Creepy would be constantly bringing up the guy a year later. We all know if he wrote something anti-MU you would be the first here to trash him. He writes something positive about Buzz and you find it creepy.
And yet, you just brought him up - - - - again
Quote from: dwaderoy2004 on February 22, 2012, 08:30:30 AM
I agree that if they go 12-6 and secure the double bye, he should certainly be in the discussion. I just thought it was premature to definitively state Heath is COY (as AnotherMU84 did) when it is entirely conceivable they finish 10-8.
My post above was poorly worded ... I meant to say if USF gets a double-bye that Heath s/b BE COY.
Quote from: Hoopaloop on February 22, 2012, 10:07:14 AM
Not creepy. Creepy would be constantly bringing up the guy a year later. We all know if he wrote something anti-MU you would be the first here to trash him. He writes something positive about Buzz and you find it creepy.
Of course I never said I found the article (or anything else ever written by Chicos) creepy. Viscious, venal, anti Marquette garbage? Maybe, but not creepy. What I find creepy is your lap dog, synchophantic hero worship of the guy.
You are constantly complaining that people around here are obsessed with Tom Crean and Chicos. Meanwhile you talk about them more than anyone else. Awhile back you wrote: "Let's obsess about winning". I saluted your post and said I would drop Tom Crean as a topic of discussion if you would. You never replied, but are still all over the topic. I make the same offer regarding Chicos. What do you say?
Quote from: MU82 on February 22, 2012, 08:57:35 AM
This is just silly. One could argue that a coach who employs a defense every other coach knows but still repeatedly beats all those other coaches is doing a lot right. The coach still has to have his players executing that defense well, both individually and collectively. When Bobby Knight was winning championships, he played nothing but man-to-man. So he wasn't a great coach because he refused to switch defenses and he successfully recruited studs? Oy.
Docking a coach for having great players also is silly. Who ultimately is responsible for bringing those players to his school? And who gets blamed if he fails to bring top players in?
That being said, Boeheim almost surely won't get COY because in all sports at all levels, the award tends to go to those who exceed expectations. For example, Phil Jackson won 11 NBA titles but never was coach of the year!
Only 4 will be seriously considered: Williams, Brey, Heath and Thompson. Feeling here is Brey will win it.
ND wasn't supposed to be especially good even with Abromaitis yet Brey was able to overcome an injury to one of the league's best players. Along the way, Brey gave Syracuse its only loss and also scored several other impressive wins, including a beat-down of Marquette.
Why is it silly? Teaching a team the one most basic defense and nothing else is lazy and the easiest way out as a coach. Its silly to compare teaching a team to play good man-to-man defense to teaching a team to play a 2-3 zone.
Also, its silly only to teach a team to play 2-3 zone when you have athletes like Jim Boeheim has because if you can only play 2-3 zone you have no way to speed a game up when you're down 10 or more in the second half. See the Butler game in the NCAA tournament two years ago. I think its silly to lose a game like that and to come back the next year without a solution when that happens again. Yet Boeheim has done it for 30 years.
Also, coaching is coaching. Recruiting is recruiting. I'm missing the difficulty in distinguishing the two.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on February 22, 2012, 11:41:08 AM
Awhile back you wrote: "Let's obsess about winning". I saluted your post and said I would drop Tom Crean as a topic of discussion if you would. You never replied, but are still all over the topic. I make the same offer regarding Chicos. What do you say?
I am on board with it, as long as you get the rest of your posse on board. Deal?
I am of the belief that most posters here are not perfect. They have good things to offer and sometimes incoherent, poor things to offer. If they believe them, however, then that's their right and their opinion. Murffius was a great example. People bash(ed) him all the time but he has some very sound principled ideas on basketball and other topics. Chicos was another. BMA was another. Tower said it best the other day, you got the good with the bad with some of these guys. Can't we all get along as 4ever would say?
The problem, as I see it, is how certain people here react to it. There are a group of users here that focus like a laser beam ready to pounce the moment someone on their watch list says something they don't agree with. Then they go into destroy mode. If you don't agree with their opinion, say it and move on. That's not what you guys do. There are others that take the good with the bad and recognize that people have differing opinions and ignore those they don't care for.
Quote from: karavotsos on February 22, 2012, 01:41:09 PM
Why is it silly? Teaching a team the one most basic defense and nothing else is lazy and the easiest way out as a coach. Its silly to compare teaching a team to play good man-to-man defense to teaching a team to play a 2-3 zone.
Also, its silly only to teach a team to play 2-3 zone when you have athletes like Jim Boeheim has because if you can only play 2-3 zone you have no way to speed a game up when you're down 10 or more in the second half. See the Butler game in the NCAA tournament two years ago. I think its silly to lose a game like that and to come back the next year without a solution when that happens again. Yet Boeheim has done it for 30 years.
Also, coaching is coaching. Recruiting is recruiting. I'm missing the difficulty in distinguishing the two.
Do you view Vince Lombardi in that way because they ran the power sweep so much? How about Bo Ryan and the Swing? If a coach comes up with a philosophy and recruits \ teaches to that philosophy that wins how does that exclude them from Coach of the Year consideration? Are you winning or are you not winning?
I guess if you want to look at it that simplistically you can. I would ask something like, are you maximizing significant wins? My answer for Boeheim is no. For a guy who has been at a job as long as he has and has won as much as he has, he has only won 1 NCAA title. He should have more.
If you have heard his philosophy behind the 2-3 zone, it's, have you ever heard of a good zone offense? His answer is no. He is counting on the zone to bring out another team's deficiencies either in lack of aggressiveness or patience to win the defensive end. I would say that's fine against poor to mediocre teams. However, a good offensive team will shred a zone with ease. Look at what KU did to MSU when they played zone last night.
So, I think Boeheim takes a conservative approach to stack wins through his approach, but he sacrifices wins against better teams. I prefer a more aggressive approach that shows more faith in your players to grow and adapt. I think man defense demands that more. Zone is a cop out.
I respectfully disagree.
If you think a college coach -- let alone a Hall of Famer -- just shrugs his shoulders and says, "play the 2-3, boys, you're on your own," you're wrong.
The middle-school team I coached the last two years played a lot of 2-3 -- we called it "Syracuse" -- and there are a LOT of aspects to it that must be taught and mastered. All kinds of traps and movement and pressure situations.
As for "lazy" Boeheim's underachieving career because he only won 1 title ...
Al McGuire also only won 1 title. Bill Self, Rick Pitino, John Thompson and Lute Olson have won 1 apiece. Roy Williams couldn't win any at Kansas despite bringing in elite talent year after year. Lon Kruger hasn't won any titles. Eddie Sutton coached forever and never won a title. Ditto Lefty Driesell, Lou Carnesecca and Lou Henson. I could go on and on.
I'll take Jim Boeheim's 1 title and the rest of his record, too. He's forgotten more about basketball than you and I will ever know.
After last night's game, it is apparent to me that Buzz should be COY, without a doubt. Yes, USF overachieved. Yes, ND is overachieving after learning how to play without Abro (and it took them quite a while to learn how). Yes, Cuse is probably going to end with 1 loss in conference. But none of that matters to me.
MU is overachieving as well, especially if we finish 2nd (or somehow tied for 1st). That isn't the most important part though. Otule starts at center then is lost for the year. We took a small adjustment period to get used to a totally different type of center and playing style with Gardner (a period much shorter than ND). Then Gardner gets injured and we're forced into no true center (and, by extension, becoming a very small team) and we have basically no adjustment period and continue to win.
Seriously, that is such a testament to how well Buzz has coached this year (not to take away from the players executing). He's had to change styles twice, mid-season (sometimes mid-game) and continue winning while not letting the team get down on themselves.
Absolutely Buzz for COY.
Unless USF wins their last three, it's between Brey and Buzz. As well as we're playing, ND just smoked West Virginia last night. Even with Abro, ND was picked 9th I believe, so it's a remarkable turnaround. It may come down to who finishes 2nd and who finishes 3rd...