Ok, for you legacy Warrior fans, many of you remember the day Jim Chones left for the NBA. We went from being the number 2 team in the land to being defeated by a very mediocre Detroit team 70-49. The tournament which could have been our first national championship disintegrated with a loss to Adolph the Bigot.
The Otule loss may have the same effect. Chris was a strong presence inside on defense for us. He made us look better on defense because we had strength under the basket and didn't have to collapse our defense, which did us in at Syracuse and Georgetown. With Chris in our line-up, I'd think we'd probably be nearly undefeated right now. I wish him well in his recovery and hope the team rallies.
The loss is significant and unless the team rallies, we'll be like the 1971-1972 Warriors. Very good but just not good enough.
Love Otule, but he is not Chones who I saw in high school as well. Chris simply gives MU elements of defense, shot blocking and 5 valuable fouls it otherwise no longer has. Also forces Jamil out of his comfort zone. No different than Ezeli at Vanderbilt. With him back, Vandy is now on a tear.
I agree this team is hurting without Otule, but this team will rebound. You can already see that it appears as if the guys are beginning to understand their new roles out there, including Wilson and Gardner.
Are you out of your mind? Let's not enshire Otule in the Hall of Fame just yet. This subject is just so ridiculous I can't even dignify it with a coherent response.
I know he's not comparing the two ability-wise as college players. But mentioning Otule in the same sentence as Chones is kinda silly. A 2-star developmental project vs. a high-school All-American who quickly beccame one of the best big men in college basketball. Chones - 6'11", Larry McNeill - 6'9", Bob Lackey - 6'6", and backup center, Mike Mills - 6'9". Nice front line!
Quote from: WarriorHal on January 08, 2012, 10:55:56 PM
I know he's not comparing the two ability-wise as college players. But mentioning Otule in the same sentence as Chones is kinda silly. A 2-star developmental project vs. a high-school All-American who quickly beccame one of the best big men in college basketball. Chones - 6'11", Larry McNeill - 6'9", Bob Lackey - 6'6", and backup center, Mike Mills - 6'9". Nice front line!
I wish we still had a line like that!
Comparing Chones's value to his team to Otule's value to this year's team is apples and oranges.
Otule averaged 5 ppg, 4 rbs/game, 1.5 blocks/game, and 1.5 TOs/game----these are in no way game changing numbers----in fact in the composite Gardner who has the bulk of mpg at #5 is the more productive player.
Loss of Otule hurts our depth, but not that much either if J Wilson can step up.
Quote from: Murffieus 1 on January 09, 2012, 06:14:26 AMComparing Chones's value to his team to Otule's value to this year's team is apples and oranges.
Otule averaged 5 ppg, 4 rbs/game, 1.5 blocks/game, and 1.5 TOs/game----these are in no way game changing numbers----in fact in the composite Gardner who has the bulk of mpg at #5 is the more productive player.
Loss of Otule hurts our depth, but not that much either if J Wilson can step up.
I wouldn't compare Otule to Chones, but no one else brings what he does. Defensively, we haven't had a center with Chris' capability and size since the 1990s. Even Robert Jackson didn't have the kind of length or ability to block and alter shots like CO does. And offensively, it's a good thing to have guys that don't need the ball to be effective. At times we can have a "too many generals" issue when you have DG, Crowder, DJO, Mayo, and Cadougan on the floor. They all need the ball to be effective. At least Junior is best distributing it, but still, all of them need the ball to be most effective, and there's still only one ball.
Otule can score in the low post a bit, and can tip balls back in or to his teammates. It's nice having guys that can be efficient simply by creating space and not demanding the ball constantly because it makes the job of those that do score that much easier.
Quote from: Murffieus 1 on January 09, 2012, 06:14:26 AM
Loss of Otule hurts our depth, but not that much either if J Wilson can step up.
We miss Otule as last line of defense in the lane, and his general ability to box out. His absence causes extra minutes for Gardner and JWilson at the 5 which increases foul trouble likelihood and decreases their effectiveness when they're in the game. With Otule out, Crowder, J Wilson and others down the line are forced to play out of position more often. Also, our rotation of players Buzz trusts drops from 8 to 7, increasing fatigue factor.
I understand his tangible production isn't stellar, but he's a key cog in the engine.
Quote from: CTWarrior on January 09, 2012, 09:03:47 AM
We miss Otule as last line of defense in the lane, and his general ability to box out. His absence causes extra minutes for Gardner and JWilson at the 5 which increases foul trouble likelihood and decreases their effectiveness when they're in the game. With Otule out, Crowder, J Wilson and others down the line are forced to play out of position more often. Also, our rotation of players Buzz trusts drops from 8 to 7, increasing fatigue factor.
I understand his tangible production isn't stellar, but he's a key cog in the engine.
Spot on.
Right, and comparing the value of Otule and Chones is like comparing the value of Chones and Butrym.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on January 09, 2012, 01:41:17 PM
Right, and comparing the value of Otule and Chones is like comparing the value of Chones and Butrym.
I don't think anyone here, including the original poster, thinks that Otule is as good/valuable as Chones was, but the idea that Otule's injury has somewhat derailed the season has merit. Obviously Chones' absence was a much bigger deal not only because of their relative playing ability, but because Chones' team was looking at a national championship opportunity go up in smoke, while our goals for this season are more modest.
I think we can all agree that we are less likely to get a top 4 Big East finish, a sweet 16 berth, etc. without Otule. The question then becomes where between 1% less likely to attain these things and 100% less likely does Otule's injury put us? I personally am at around 20% less likely, as certain types of teams (long, athletic, well-rounded) that are prevelant in the Big East and NCAA tournament are going to give us more trouble without Otule.
While 4ever is right that Chris is nowhere near the player Chones was, I agree with Brew and CT that the loss of Otule for THIS team is huge. Size and defense were this team's achille's heel going into the season and with Otule out we have noone to give us either on the interior.
Yes, the pity is Otule's loss greatly effects the ability of this team to play to its potential. I'm not of the opinion that, with or without Chris, this team, as constituted, will end the season having done anything of substance.
I was in college when Chones left. What I think is interesting about the comparison is how the teams has done without them. MU fell apart without Chones. By memory they went from 22-0 to 24-5. I do believe MU would have won a couple of the games they lost, if Otule had not got hurt. I also think the schedule we have played without Otule is tougher than the one we played without Chones. What I find interesting is that as great as McGuire was this team without Otule appears to be better than his team without Chones.
Bottom Line MU will miss Otules 5 fouls and his length on defense, Offensively he was improving to the point that maybe he would average 7 points and 6 boards, not great numbers
but very solid, block shots or change of shots are a factor that Gardner or the rest can not do. Jim Chones, seriously, Jimmy was the best big man ever at MU, did it all. It was a
shame Al took him out that year. Maybe the only kid that ever left during the season, they were undefeated that year. That Ohio St. game a year earlier till this day, makes me sick. The only game Dean
Memminger fouled out, 3 charging calls on him. The ref apologized years later, so what. It was MU's best team ever.
Best team ever was 75-76 that lost to undefeated Indiana in NCAA tournament game.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on January 09, 2012, 02:35:18 PMWhile 4ever is right that Chris is nowhere near the player Chones was, I agree with Brew and CT that the loss of Otule for THIS team is huge. Size and defense were this team's achille's heel going into the season and with Otule out we have noone to give us either on the interior.
It's what he brings to this team. I wasn't even born when Chones was here, but what hurts about Chris is the lack of a replacement. Anyone that thinks Gardner brings similar abilities on the defensive end is delusional. We become a team of midgets without his 25 mpg. We were an undersized team with one truly competent big man before his injury. Now we are just undersized. Gardner, at 6'8" with a 2-inch vertical, is not the space-filler that Otule is, despite the bulk. Wilson doesn't have close to the length. And with both of them forced to take a greater load at center, that reduces their effectiveness. Wilson because he's out of position and DG because he now has to go 25-30 mpg instead of the 15-20 mpg that would leave him constantly fresh and rested. Not to mention the simple loss of 5 extra fouls.
Again, never saw Chones, and I'm sure Otule is no Chones, but Otule was the only guy that could bring what he brought to the table. It's like when we lost James in 2008. Maurice Acker did okay, and James was probably the 3rd or 4th best player on that team, but no one else had the acumen to replace him adequately. It's not that we lost our best player, we didn't, but we lost a player that didn't have a comparable replacement.
Quote from: bilsu on January 10, 2012, 06:55:19 AM
Best team ever was 75-76 that lost to undefeated Indiana in NCAA tournament game.
Chones vs. Whitehead Adv. Chones
Lackey Vs. Ellis Pretty Close
Brell Vs. Tatum Brell more physical, but Earl smooth as silk, Tatum more of a guard
Butch Vs. Allie, butch the edge
Memminger vs. Walton, Dean the deciding factor, All-American
Both had great seasons, tough call, like that team better, the most important positions were All-Americans
Quote from: brewcity77 on January 10, 2012, 07:17:14 AM
It's what he brings to this team. I wasn't even born when Chones was here, but what hurts about Chris is the lack of a replacement. Anyone that thinks Gardner brings similar abilities on the defensive end is delusional. We become a team of midgets without his 25 mpg. We were an undersized team with one truly competent big man before his injury. Now we are just undersized. Gardner, at 6'8" with a 2-inch vertical, is not the space-filler that Otule is, despite the bulk.
And this is why I want Aaron Durley to come here next year. If Otule gets hurt again, God forbid, at least Durley can't eat up space and give you five fouls that Gardner won't have to pick up.
Quote from: CTWarrior on January 09, 2012, 02:08:11 PM
I don't think anyone here, including the original poster, thinks that Otule is as good/valuable as Chones was, but the idea that Otule's injury has somewhat derailed the season has merit. Obviously Chones' absence was a much bigger deal not only because of their relative playing ability, but because Chones' team was looking at a national championship opportunity go up in smoke, while our goals for this season are more modest.
CT Warrior, you're right. Jimmy Chones was a catalyst behind a team that if he had stayed, he would have been the core of what I believe would have been a national championship team. I think his senior year would have included a front line of Larry McNeill, Jim Chones and Maurice Lucas.
Yeah, Otule is no Chones, but some have failed to see that the loss of both was crippling. We could be a one loss team with Otule. Without him, we're a good but not great team.
Right, and comparing the value of Otule and Chones is like comparing the value of Chones and Butrym.
I think "Little" Butrym, Craig's son, could have been an interesting center on our team, though. He's big and muscular. Let see Ole Fab Mello drive on a guy who is a Defensive Tackle for the Red Rodent.
I misread this post title And was disappointed to see that the topic was, in fact, not about cloning Chris Otule.