Last night showed the problem MU is going to have with quick backcourts. Junior really had trouble keeping his guy in front of him all night. The problem is the offense looks a little ragged without him out there. During one stretch, they had Blue running the point with neither Wilson nor Junior in the game...and let's just say I was holding my breath. As much as I love his defense and his energy, he is still good for a couple TOs and wild shots per game.
And Wilson was OK...nothing spectacular...but he has zero offensive game at this point. Unfortunately, I think we might be struggling with point guard issues again against top BE level teams.
Thats because EVERY Big East point guard can shoot/score.
Agree that Junior had a rough game last night, yet he competed fairly well in the Big East down the stretch last year, and I certainly don't think he's regressed. IF anything the Big East this year will have regressed with regard to talent, than in past years. I'm still bullish on Derrick Wilson, though he may not look to score much, scoring isn't needed on this team. His defense is 5-star talent good.
I thought JC's game was a little off last night with respect to on court decisioning. The pace was so fast that I thought he rushed a number of semi fast breaks and didn't allow the flow to happen. In some ways much of this might be because I underestimated UW. They look like a pretty good team (albeit young and somewhat prone to mistakes) to me.
Quote from: Ners on December 07, 2011, 08:56:53 AM
Agree that Junior had a rough game last night, yet he competed fairly well in the Big East down the stretch last year, and I certainly don't think he's regressed. IF anything the Big East this year will have regressed with regard to talent, than in past years. I'm still bullish on Derrick Wilson, though he may not look to score much, scoring isn't needed on this team. His defense is 5-star talent good.
Well, I'm not sure about that. Blue is the better defender. I think Sugar pointed out that Wilson was -7 against Wisconsin. He can defend, but he doesn't do much for you offensively now. (I fully expect him in a couple years to do so though.)
I don't think Junior has regressed, but his defense is a problem.
I watched most of the game, however I had to miss the ending. I heard Buzz had Junior in the game for the final possession(s), can somebody explain why?
I understand him being in the game to be the field marshal and help run the offense, but at that point in the game why would he play JC? Is it a leadership thing? Seniority thing? To me he was a liability on the defensive end to say the least
Quote from: JDuquaine on December 07, 2011, 09:13:34 AM
I watched most of the game, however I had to miss the ending. I heard Buzz had Junior in the game for the final possession(s), can somebody explain why?
I understand him being in the game to be the field marshal and help run the offense, but at that point in the game why would he play JC? Is it a leadership thing? Seniority thing? To me he was a liability on the defensive end to say the least
At some point in time, you have to go with the guys you know and who have been there. Mayo and DWilson have never been in that situation before. Junior has. You win or lose with the guys you trust.
Junior had six assists last night. Against Bucky, MU as a team had eight total. First and foremost, MU is an offensive team, and Junior makes it go.
Junior needs to play in crunch time. Much better half court offense when he is in the game. He needs to make some better decisions from time to time, but overall he needs to play.
So you guys are telling me that he can run the offense through the half court better than anybody, which is good, but what happens on the defensive end? Do we just hope his man is a non factor in the next possession?
And also don't we have guys who can make there own shots when it comes to crunch time? DJO, Crowder, Mayo?
Just not sure i understand the logic in that.
Junior does not "make the offense go." If anything he's the one slowing it down, I would assume by design. He seems to me to be the one guy who always seems a little out of sync on offense and he's been that way since he got here. On a team full of tremendous athletes, he's a little bit of a fish out of water. I've said it before and I'll say it again. Wilson is a better player. He's clearly been told to assume a non scoring role on offense as Butler was told as a soph. Junior is no more talented offensively and a whole lot worse defensively.
Quote from: jsglow on December 07, 2011, 08:59:54 AM
I thought JC's game was a little off last night with respect to on court decisioning. The pace was so fast that I thought he rushed a number of semi fast breaks and didn't allow the flow to happen. In some ways much of this might be because I underestimated UW. They look like a pretty good team (albeit young and somewhat prone to mistakes) to me.
Washington is definitely the most athletic team we have played this year. If all of their players stick around I feel like they could be very good in the near future.
Quote from: JDuquaine on December 07, 2011, 09:38:01 AM
So you guys are telling me that he can run the offense through the half court better than anybody, which is good, but what happens on the defensive end? Do we just hope his man is a non factor in the next possession?
And also don't we have guys who can make there own shots when it comes to crunch time? DJO, Crowder, Mayo?
Just not sure i understand the logic in that.
Play for situational substitutions. It also depends upon the score/time left when we are on defense. Did we just score? Miss the shot and need to foul? ... Too many variables to give absolutes, but situational substitution. Otherwise, I suspect Buzz will go with Junior on the court as the default.
We've got a roster full of imperfect, but good, players. None of them are do everything guys, but at any time we have a good combination on the floor of scorers, defenders, etc. I like Buzz's analogy of a tool shed and he has various tools to use depending on the job that needs to be done.
Junior does a good job running the offense, getting others involved, but is not a great shooter nor a great defender. D Wilson is a solid on the ball defender, but doesn't initiate offense. You can say something similar about all our guys. I think the maniacal way Buzz is constantly running guys in and out of the game makes sense in some weird way when you consider game situations and the merits of each player.
Unlikely we see the combination of point guards we saw last night Gaddy (5 star rated No. 2 PG 2009) and Wroten(5 star rated No. 4 PG 2011). That is 2 of the top 16 PG's currently playing (according to their rankings coming out of HS)
That team was stacked at the point guard position.
Quote from: PuertoRicanNightmare on December 07, 2011, 10:18:12 AM
Junior does not "make the offense go." If anything he's the one slowing it down, I would assume by design. He seems to me to be the one guy who always seems a little out of sync on offense and he's been that way since he got here. On a team full of tremendous athletes, he's a little bit of a fish out of water. I've said it before and I'll say it again. Wilson is a better player. He's clearly been told to assume a non scoring role on offense as Butler was told as a soph. Junior is no more talented offensively and a whole lot worse defensively.
He does seem like a little bit of a fish out of water, but I wouldn't say Wilson is better. JC is a fairly confident guy on offense and I like his 15 footer. I think DJO and Jae work better off a higher performing JC too at least because of trust. There was a lot of stagnant 1 on 1 stuff last night by DJO, he's better when defenders are trying to catch up to the offense and he has someone off balance already. I would think without looking that the assist percentages were down last night. I was definitely not feeling confident when DWilson tried to penetrate.
I agree with everyone else though.. it will be a matchup thing.. there are plenty of other options depending how the game is going. I think JC having Chris behind him would have helped a lot, there just wasn't anybody to redirect the player once they got passed JC. Nobody is the total package on the team.
Blue seems to have a major problem when he drives the lane. He drives, and has no outlet in mind until he is all the way committed and in a bad position to shoot. This happened at least 3 or 4 times yesterday and just infuriates me.
Quote from: PBRme on December 07, 2011, 10:32:33 AM
Unlikely we see the combination of point guards we saw last night Gaddy (5 star rated No. 2 PG 2009) and Wroten(5 star rated No. 4 PG 2011). That is 2 of the top 16 PG's currently playing (according to their rankings coming out of HS)
That team was stacked at the point guard position.
Didn't Buzz say they had 4-5 future NBA guys on their team? UW was super athletic and caused problems.
We need a PG to round out the '13 class. Wish we had someone to give Junior a run for his money this season and next. I fear he's reached his ceiling as a player. His D is atrocious and he doesn't shoot well enough to keep defenses honest. Wilson's a defender. Offensively, the best thing you can say about him is that he's a caretaker PG. He doesn't/can't initiate offense, be creative with the ball, drive the lane or shoot. The opportunity is certainly there for a highly rated high school PG to come in and earn significant minutes as a freshman in the fall of '13.
Quote from: Boone on December 07, 2011, 10:52:38 AM
Wilson's a defender. Offensively, the best thing you can say about him is that he's a caretaker PG. He doesn't/can't initiate offense or drive the lane.
He's 8 games into his freshman year. Let's let the dude develop a little.
Quote from: Hards_Alumni on December 07, 2011, 10:36:10 AM
Blue seems to have a major problem when he drives the lane. He drives, and has no outlet in mind until he is all the way committed and in a bad position to shoot. This happened at least 3 or 4 times yesterday and just infuriates me.
I was thinking the same thing. I like his penetrating ability, but he doesn't need to get to the basket EVERY time he enters the lane. Work on step backs when the lane is clogged-something DJO has done an exceptional job at since his Sophomore year. Blue puts his head down and goes. I like it, but there needs to be diversity to that. That should come in time. I think this is the type of performance we should expect out of Blue throughout the year. Great plays, the dunk and one, and then some plays where you hit your head and say, "come on Blue, you're better than that." I had no problem with his performance tonight.
Also, I was extremely impressed last saturday and tonight, at times, when he handled the PG responsibilities. I was not holding my breath, as some were, when he controls the 1. He'll have more turnovers, sure, but he's going to make more plays.
Though I am a skeptic by nature, I am not super worried about this yet. Buzz has options, and so far this season he has used them pretty darned well.
Everyone can have a bad night. I think alot of guys on the team looked a little sluggish and gassed. JC was not the only problem on defense. Alot of guys were missing their assignments so you can't just blame it on one guy.
And Washington is a very athletic team but does the coach teach them to chicken wing and hook? They did that about 10 times and were called about 4 times on it. I am not too concerned about the PG position.
6 assists, 1 turnover. Most athletic PG he has guarded so far this year. I fail to see a concern here.
Quote from: CTWarrior on December 07, 2011, 10:29:19 AM
We've got a roster full of imperfect, but good, players. None of them are do everything guys, but at any time we have a good combination on the floor of scorers, defenders, etc. I like Buzz's analogy of a tool shed and he has various tools to use depending on the job that needs to be done.
Junior does a good job running the offense, getting others involved, but is not a great shooter nor a great defender. D Wilson is a solid on the ball defender, but doesn't initiate offense. You can say something similar about all our guys. I think the maniacal way Buzz is constantly running guys in and out of the game makes sense in some weird way when you consider game situations and the merits of each player.
Well said. If there's a guy out there who can run a team like Junior AND play lockdown D like Derrick, he's probably not coming to MU. Guys without any holes in their game stop off briefly at UK, UNC, Duke, etc., on their way to the NBA. Those teams don't have to sub offense/defense or small/big like Buzz does. When we add all the attributes of our 11 guys we can come close to replicating what the elites roll out there every night in their starting fives. It's why Buzz has preached from the beginning the need to have a roster full of guys who can play (even if they're "specialty" types) at a Big East level.
This thread is about Point Guard Problems, not Center problems or any other position. Yes Washington is an athletic team, but i tend to think I can hope for a little more than 6 assist and 1 HUGE turnover late in the game by our starting point guard. Maybe a bit to much to ask.
Quote from: JDuquaine on December 07, 2011, 11:47:30 AM
This thread is about Point Guard Problems, not Center problems or any other position. Yes Washington is an athletic team, but i tend to think I can hope for a little more than 6 assist and 1 HUGE turnover late in the game by our starting point guard. Maybe a bit to much to ask.
You want more than a 6:1 assist to turnover ratio?
Yes, that is too much to ask.
Quote from: JDuquaine on December 07, 2011, 11:47:30 AM
This thread is about Point Guard Problems, not Center problems or any other position. Yes Washington is an athletic team, but i tend to think I can hope for a little more than 6 assist and 1 HUGE turnover late in the game by our starting point guard. Maybe a bit to much to ask.
Check A/PG stats for the last few years. Check Junior's A/TO ratio so far this year. Junior is doing exactly what you want a pass-first PG to do. I would like his FT's and defense to be better, but I can say that about anybody.
You want more than a 6:1 assist to turnover ratio?
Yes, that is too much to ask.
Numbers are misleading! Should we go over his stellar defense last night?
Quote from: tower912 on December 07, 2011, 11:22:28 AM
6 assists, 1 turnover. Most athletic PG he has guarded so far this year. I fail to see a concern here.
Abdul Gaddy: Led Pac 10 in A/TO ratio with 3:1 last season, shot 40.6% on treys, McD's Burger Boy, #2 rated PG coming out of HS
Abdul Gaddy last night: 1:1 A/TO ratio, shot 2-11 from the floor and 0-3 from three.
I wonder if the UW boards are asking why he played so poorly against MU's dime-a-dozen PG?
Quote from: Hards_Alumni on December 07, 2011, 10:36:10 AM
Blue seems to have a major problem when he drives the lane. He drives, and has no outlet in mind until he is all the way committed and in a bad position to shoot. This happened at least 3 or 4 times yesterday and just infuriates me.
I agree, but I think (and hope) that is a product of youth and still learning the small nuances.
He's basically McNeal as a frosh/soph. All over the court, causes headaches for the opposition, teammates love him... but it can be hard to watch.
He could use a little more weight/strength to help him finish in traffic (part of being an upperclassmen) and he needs to pick his spots a little better (Jimmy Butler was fantastic at that).
Honestly, he's light years ahead of last year already, and he could make more strides by March.
Still a very high ceiling.
Quote from: tower912 on December 07, 2011, 11:52:28 AM
Check A/PG stats for the last few years. Check Junior's A/TO ratio so far this year. Junior is doing exactly what you want a pass-first PG to do. I would like his FT's and defense to be better, but I can say that about anybody.
Yes, but to be fair, I was trying to balance out his positive offensive production with his negative defensive production.
I think it is absolutely silly that some people are suggesting that we keep Junior off the floor in crunch time because some of the reasons you point out. His A/TO ratio is very good.
Quote from: Hards_Alumni on December 07, 2011, 10:36:10 AM
Blue seems to have a major problem when he drives the lane. He drives, and has no outlet in mind until he is all the way committed and in a bad position to shoot. This happened at least 3 or 4 times yesterday and just infuriates me.
I haven't completely analyzed this yet, but here is a perception I am starting to have on Blue. It appears to me that when he penetrates from the side or baseline is when he really get's into trouble. When he comes from the wing, to the elbow and key, he see's the court better. His attempts are better and his passing is better. To me, he tends to get in trouble and turns the ball over more from the side and baseline.
Reading the recap of the Badger/Green Bay game, it says that Taylor is en route to setting an NCAA career record with a 3.25 A/TO ratio. Junior is averaging 3-1 so far this year. We don't have a PG problem.
Quote from: tower912 on December 08, 2011, 06:05:43 AM
Reading the recap of the Badger/Green Bay game, it says that Taylor is en route to setting an NCAA career record with a 3.25 A/TO ratio. Junior is averaging 3-1 so far this year. We don't have a PG problem.
Again...if you go back to my first post, he is a liability on the defensive end. So offensively I agree he is not a problem.
He is no more a liability on the defensive end than was Diener or Acker or Buycks. The only true lockdown defensive PG's I can remember in the last 25 years are James and Miller. Junior isn't a lockdown defender.
Quote from: tower912 on December 08, 2011, 08:00:08 AM
He is no more a liability on the defensive end than was Diener or Acker or Buycks.
Well, they aren't on the team any longer so I'm not sure how this is relevant. (And Buycks was a much better defender than Junior.)
Look, I understand what you are saying. That his offense trumps his defense, and in the end I agree with you. And actually off the ball he is pretty good. On ball is where he has problems.
I rewatched the game last night, and I only saw two blow by's when Junior was guarding the point. Wroten blew by Junior twice in a row from the right side, where it looked like Junior was trying to force him baseline into the help defense in the paint that wasn't there. Gaddy hit his only two shots when Junior was out, and Vander was guarding him, otherwise Junior held him to an "0 for". Wroten was a tough match-up for Junior at 6'5", but I really did not see that Junior played poorly defensively on review, and in fact, had a key steal in the last minute. I was surprised, as I tend towards Sultan's POV.
That said, CD was completely right in his DJO assessment, as to me, he was much worse on D upon review. Just outmatched and wandering too much.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on December 08, 2011, 08:24:02 AM
Look, I understand what you are saying. That his offense trumps his defense, and in the end I agree with you. And actually off the ball he is pretty good. On ball is where he has problems.
I'm not sure I agree with this, mostly because I believe the value of assists are overstated in comparison to making your own shots efficiently. Junior has many games where his offense does trump his defense, but I don't think it happens consistently yet.
Quote from: Henry Sugar on December 08, 2011, 08:39:27 AM
I'm not sure I agree with this, mostly because I believe the value of assists are overstated in comparison to making your own shots efficiently. Junior has many games where his offense does trump his defense, but I don't think it happens consistently yet.
Can you elaborate on this a little?
Are you saying that on a statistical basis an individual player's offensive performance is driven by efficient scoring vs assists?
Because I'm not sure how, in the context of a team with everybody understanding and playing their role, you could ever arrive at what you stated above. Some players do not need to score to make a major impact on the success of the team.
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on December 08, 2011, 08:30:59 AM
I rewatched the game last night, and I only saw two blow by's when Junior was guarding the point. Wroten blew by Junior twice in a row from the right side, where it looked like Junior was trying to force him baseline into the help defense in the paint that wasn't there. Gaddy hit his only two shots when Junior was out at Vander was guarding him, otherwise Junior held him to an "O for". Wroten was a tough match=-up for Junior at 6'5", but I really did not see that Junior played poorly defensively on review, and in fact had a key steal in the last minute. I was surprised, as I tend towards Sultan's POV.
That said, CD was completely right in his DJO assessment, as to me, he was much worse on D upon review. Just outmatched and wandering too much.
I've always been of the opinion that DJO plays crappy D. The most glaring instances from the UW game were against Ross, who would be a tough matchup for anybody so I kind of gave him a pass for that game.
Quote from: ATL MU Warrior on December 08, 2011, 08:56:02 AM
Can you elaborate on this a little?
Are you saying that on a statistical basis an individual player's offensive performance is driven by efficient scoring vs assists?
Because I'm not sure how, in the context of a team with everybody understanding and playing their role, you could ever arrive at what you stated above. Some players do not need to score to make a major impact on the success of the team.
A team wins a game when it is more efficient than its opponents. Efficiency is Points Produced / Possessions Used.
On the offensive end, points can be produced in several ways. (I think this is the full list)
- Making a shot, assisted or not
- Assisting someone else with a basket
- Getting an offensive rebound that leads to a basket
- Making free throws
Assisting someone else with a basket is only one aspect of producing points. Then you need to consider the relative importance of those assists.
Junior gives six assists that lead to twelve points or eighteen, but he doesn't get 100% credit for producing all those points. The player that actually MADE the shot deserves credit too! The end result is that Junior gets credit for some portion of the points from those assists, but not all. Generally, Junior gets more credit for producing points from assists than anyone else on the team.
In short, giving assists is only one aspect of producing points, and even then, a player only gets partial credit for the points that are produced.
Including assists, Junior's offense does outshine his defense when he makes ~2-3 FG and ~3 FT / game. Those are not unreasonable expectations for a player that is on the court ~25 min/game, even a primarily pass-first PG.
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on December 08, 2011, 08:30:59 AM
I rewatched the game last night, and I only saw two blow by's when Junior was guarding the point. Wroten blew by Junior twice in a row from the right side, where it looked like Junior was trying to force him baseline into the help defense in the paint that wasn't there. Gaddy hit his only two shots when Junior was out at Vander was guarding him, otherwise Junior held him to an "O for". Wroten was a tough match=-up for Junior at 6'5", but I really did not see that Junior played poorly defensively on review, and in fact had a key steal in the last minute. I was surprised, as I tend towards Sultan's POV.
That said, CD was completely right in his DJO assessment, as to me, he was much worse on D upon review. Just outmatched and wandering too much.
You bring up a great point. Just because a guy gets past Junior, doesn't necessarily mean it's terrible defense.
If Junior lets the ball handler go wherever he wants, then obviously that is awful.
But, if he forces the handler to his weak hand/direction (scouting report) and expects help on that side, well, then its not as bad as it looks on TV. The defensive rotation wasn't good, which made Junior look bad.
MU plays an aggressive rotation defense where no player is on an island.
With all of this said, we know Junior isn't the quickest guy, and we has seen opposing guards cross him up. I don't think it's a huge problem, but I'm sure it's something Buzz watches and will play the match-ups as necessary.
There were a couple of aspects of Junior's game that were off Tuesday. He did get beat off the dribble at some critical times. But as others have said these PGs were both very good. Also they were supposed to be great shooters so Junior was probably told "you can't give them space at the 3 point line". If you are going to play up a a guy who is pretty quick you're going to get beat. You can't take away everything from a great player.
Junior didn't carve up the defense with a bunch of drives and dishes. Again the guys playing him were pretty good. I do beleive this is where Junior excels and we do lose a lot in points from the 5 when Junior isn't in to deliver the ball.
The 3rd factor could have been Juniors mental mind set. I beleive Junior lacks confidence in general. When he gets that confidence you see him play like he did late last year. Sitting him for the Bagder game (while he may have had it coming) may have damaged his confidence in the game immediately following it Tuesday night. I think he'll get it back hopefully Saturday night in a slowing game that his drive and dish will be more necessary in.