After last night's performance I was just wondering if all the ignorant people that ripped him last week were going to rip him again today?
After all he only scored 3 points!!
Probably...that seems to be what people do here.
Defense doesn't win games...Offense does ;)
He's got the look of a guy who is slowly putting it all together. last year he improved what was already his bread and butter - attacking the rim and adjusting to the quickness and athleticism of the college game. this year he's starting to break into the other aspects of the game, and has begun consistently upping his stats in all facets of the game. There will be ups and downs, but he's starting to get it. Right now I think he projects to really blow up as an upper classman. If he learns to combine the improvement arc he's on right now with proving to the Association that he can handle the point, he could really make some scouts salivate.
Vander has amazed me with his rebounding ability what seems like at least once a game. There was a point in the second half where he got UP for a rebound. A guard that's willing to mix it up down low on those boards is extremely valuable. If he can continue the rebounds, steals, and assists, I honestly don't care about the points on his stat line as long as he isn't clearly forcing matters.
Quote from: Canadian Dimes on November 29, 2011, 09:40:40 AM
After last night's performance I was just wondering if all the ignorant people that ripped him last week were going to rip him again today?
After all he only scored 3 points!!
Blue has an excellent all-around game. Unfortunately, as long as he has games where he doesn't score much, he's going to have his detractors.
Right now he is not the first,second or third option to score but is doing everything else with hustle.
Playing his role to the Max
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on November 29, 2011, 10:22:44 AM
Blue has an excellent all-around game. Unfortunately, as long as he has games where he doesn't score much, he'is going to have his detractors.
Fixed that for you...this being the internet and all. He could be the second coming of [insert name of once-in-a-lifetime collegiate talent] and there would be detractors.
Blue is a good one...and getting better.
I recall a previous Madison Memorial guy who was not the center of the offense but did all the little things that needed to be done. He ended up doing okay.
I also think it really went over most people's heads last year (or they willingly ignored the fact) that Blue was EXTREMELY young as a freshman. The Big East is a huge step up physically from Wisconsin high school ball. Kids' bodies develop so rapidly around that time that he was and is still behind on that curve. Give him another off season under Todd Smith while developing his jumper and some dribble-drive moves and I think he'll explode on the offensive end next year. Regardless, he's contributing at a high level in all aspects of the game other than outside shooting right now, and he gives max effort on the court.
Just for a quick comparison, Todd Mayo has looked very competent on the offensive side of the ball thus far. However, he's MORE THAN A FULL YEAR older than Vander, despite the fact that he's a freshman and Vander's a sophomore. This should really be Vander's freshman year and Mayo's sophomore year. Keep that in mind when watching Vander's progression.
Quote from: Jamailman on November 29, 2011, 10:55:00 AM
Just for a quick comparison, Todd Mayo has looked very competent on the offensive side of the ball thus far. However, he's MORE THAN A FULL YEAR older than Vander, despite the fact that he's a freshman and Vander's a sophomore. This should really be Vander's freshman year and Mayo's sophomore year. Keep that in mind when watching Vander's progression.
Really? I didn't realize that.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on November 29, 2011, 10:56:37 AM
Really? I didn't realize that.
Yep. Todd will turn 21 during the NCAA tournament this year. I turned 21 the spring of my junior year. That's what happens when you go to prep school.
Another point of comparison - the U18 USA national team Vander started on included some big names like Austin Rivers and Quincy Miller - both freshmen at Duke and Baylor this year.
Quote from: Badgerhater on November 29, 2011, 10:53:06 AM
I recall a previous Madison Memorial guy who was not the center of the offense but did all the little things that needed to be done. He ended up doing okay.
(http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSpg2cIGXQ2YvU_ptk1PfZwT_2hw-dciqfGNePoSSQJaLsIhdyaC5NT5aHB)
Quote from: Jamailman on November 29, 2011, 11:01:36 AM
Yep. Todd will turn 21 during the NCAA tournament this year. I turned 21 the spring of my junior year. That's what happens when you go to prep school.
Another point of comparison - the U18 USA national team Vander started on included some big names like Austin Rivers and Quincy Miller - both freshmen at Duke and Baylor this year.
I turned 21 in November of my senior year. Mayo is going to be 21 as a freshman! Granted I was very young for my class but still. That's insane!
I will say this for he hundreth time....
The reason Wisconsin has been so historically bad in basketball ( i beleive the second worst all-time record, only ahead of Northwestern) is because Wisconsin high school basketball is absolutely horrendous. The yound ones will not recall that before Bo Wisconsin went about 50 years without an NCAA bid and perrennially fought with NW for last place in the BIG 10.
In fact one would be hard pressed to find many if any states in the country with worse high school talent. Now i realize many Wisconsinites will find this hard to beleive or accept but it is true.
Hence Wisconsin has always had a roster of mostly wisconsin players and over the years there best players by and large have not been from Wisconsin.
MU has had some Wisconsin players but the difference makers from wisconsin have been few and far between. Majority of Mu starters and greats have been from out East or Illinois.
Therefore, it is a simple truth that players from Wisconsin having had for the most part poor coaching and playing against woeful talent are not as prepared as those players from New York, Chicago, Indiana, etc. Bo redshirts them. Buzz does not play them as Freshman.
Highly rated recruits from Calvin rayford to brian Butch to Evan Anderson to Scott Christopherson, Anthony Pieper, Jeronne MAymon and Vander Blue have had basketball culture schock upon entering D1.
Does not mean they dont have ability or talent. It just means scoring 30 a game aginst dairy farmers doesnt really mean jack. The learning curve is greater and some of them turn out to be really fine players and some of them simply scored alot of points against kids that would not be varsity basketball players in surrounding states and therefore got over recruited.
Quote from: Badgerhater on November 29, 2011, 10:53:06 AM
I recall a previous Madison Memorial guy who was not the center of the offense but did all the little things that needed to be done. His father also played basketball and was not crazy, and his mother was a track star. He ended up doing okay.
Specificity...accomplished.
In all seriousness, though, I think Vander is exactly what the CrackedSidewalks peeps are saying he is going to be, some hybrid/"alpha" PG/SG type. Both he and Junior are doing a great job facilitating the offense. As long as he brings it on D, rebounds, and has good TO:AST numbers, we're going to win a lot of games.
Vander is looking more and more like the type of player I want on the court at all times, whether it's as another guard, or sliding over to Cadougan's spot.
Quote from: Canadian Dimes on November 29, 2011, 11:14:55 AM
I will say this for he hundreth time....
The reason Wisconsin has been so historically bad in basketball ( i beleive the second worst all-time record, only ahead of Northwestern) is because Wisconsin high school basketball is absolutely horrendous. The yound ones will not recall that before Bo Wisconsin went about 50 years without an NCAA bid and perrennially fought with NW for last place in the BIG 10.
Actually, they broke that streak under Stu Jackson...then Dick Bennett...
I ripped Blue's offensive skills... And I still do. I will say this once and a bunch more times. Having the god given athletic ability to drive past guys doesn't do any good if you can't finish and you don't make great decisions. He is a great defender and he seems to be getting better.
Unfortunately/fortunately, if I create the hypothetical that there is a MU player slashing into the lane and it can be any player, who would it be? I would want it to be DJO, Jae, JC, Mayo, and Jones over blue in that order.
If there is a MU player pulling up for a J, who would you want?
Honestly, I am not anti-blue. I just call it like I see it.
But yesterday he made numerous good decisions in the half-court offense.
Quote from: Canadian Dimes on November 29, 2011, 11:14:55 AM
I will say this for he hundreth time....
The reason Wisconsin has been so historically bad in basketball ( i beleive the second worst all-time record, only ahead of Northwestern) is because Wisconsin high school basketball is absolutely horrendous. The yound ones will not recall that before Bo Wisconsin went about 50 years without an NCAA bid and perrennially fought with NW for last place in the BIG 10.
In fact one would be hard pressed to find many if any states in the country with worse high school talent. Now i realize many Wisconsinites will find this hard to beleive or accept but it is true.
Hence Wisconsin has always had a roster of mostly wisconsin players and over the years there best players by and large have not been from Wisconsin.
MU has had some Wisconsin players but the difference makers from wisconsin have been few and far between. Majority of Mu starters and greats have been from out East or Illinois.
Therefore, it is a simple truth that players from Wisconsin having had for the most part poor coaching and playing against woeful talent are not as prepared as those players from New York, Chicago, Indiana, etc. Bo redshirts them. Buzz does not play them as Freshman.
Highly rated recruits from Calvin rayford to brian Butch to Evan Anderson to Scott Christopherson, Anthony Pieper, Jeronne MAymon and Vander Blue have had basketball culture schock upon entering D1.
Does not mean they dont have ability or talent. It just means scoring 30 a game aginst dairy farmers doesnt really mean jack. The learning curve is greater and some of them turn out to be really fine players and some of them simply scored alot of points against kids that would not be varsity basketball players in surrounding states and therefore got over recruited.
What is your point here? Telling us why Blue was bad last year?
Vander had a nice game last night. 3 points, 9 rebounds and 7 assists (and 3 turnovers) against Jacksonville. Not sure that's grounds for putting his jersey in the rafters just yet. Let's get some perspective. Matthews was from Wisconsin and he was FAR superior to Blue his freshman year. So was Diener. It took Novak until the DePaul game, but when he was a freshman he made the all regional team in the NCAA tournament. All of these guys were from Wisconsin.
Quote from: PuertoRicanNightmare on November 29, 2011, 12:06:53 PM
What is your point here? Telling us why Blue was bad last year?
Vander had a nice game last night. 3 points, 9 rebounds and 7 assists (and 3 turnovers) against Jacksonville. Not sure that's grounds for putting his jersey in the rafters just yet. Let's get some perspective. Matthews was from Wisconsin and he was FAR superior to Blue his freshman year. So was Diener. It took Novak until the DePaul game, but when he was a freshman he made the all regional team in the NCAA tournament. All of these guys were from Wisconsin.
Diener was 19 years, 8 months of age when he started his freshman year. Matthews was 19 years, one month of age when he began his freshman year. Blue was 18 years, 3 months of age when he began his freshman year. If you don't think a year or more of physical maturity matters at that point in bball players' development then I don't know what to tell you.
Novak was the same age, but he was just as bad on defense as Blue was on offense as a freshman. He just happened to get ridiculously hot in that Missouri game.
If you compare Blue this year to Diener and Matthews as freshmen, I think you'll get a better perspective on Blue.
Quote from: Jamailman on November 29, 2011, 12:23:21 PM
Diener was 19 years, 8 months of age when he started his freshman year. Matthews was 19 years, one month of age when he began his freshman year. Blue was 18 years, 3 months of age when he began his freshman year. If you don't think a year or more of physical maturity matters at that point in bball players' development then I don't know what to tell you.
Novak was the same age, but he was just as bad on defense as Blue was on offense as a freshman. He just happened to get ridiculously hot in that Missouri game.
If you compare Blue this year to Diener and Matthews as freshmen, I think you'll get a better perspective on Blue.
This is meaningless. Of course a 19 year old is going to be more physically mature than an 18 year old. What difference does it make? You can't change his age. All you're doing is admitting Blue was physically overwhelmed last year, which is what some of us have been saying since last January. I don't care if he was 21 or 12. He shouldn't have been playing as many minutes as he did.
Even when he was 25 -- and even when he tried to grow a beard -- Diener had the baby face and skinny body of a 14-year-old. That didn't stop him from being a tough SOB during his MU days.
Hoping Blue continues to improve. I like what I'm seeing so far this season.
Quote from: ErickJD08 on November 29, 2011, 11:53:00 AM
I ripped Blue's offensive skills... And I still do. I will say this once and a bunch more times. Having the god given athletic ability to drive past guys doesn't do any good if you can't finish and you don't make great decisions. He is a great defender and he seems to be getting better.
Unfortunately/fortunately, if I create the hypothetical that there is a MU player slashing into the lane and it can be any player, who would it be? I would want it to be DJO, Jae, JC, Mayo, and Jones over blue in that order.
If there is a MU player pulling up for a J, who would you want?
Honestly, I am not anti-blue. I just call it like I see it.
dont mean to be harsh but that is a really low basketball IQ statement. Players are judged on how they can affect an outcome. Vander Blue starts for 2 years now becuse he is one of the 5 guys on the team that most help us do that.
here's one...if you most needed a dunk who would it be Derrick Wilson on Jamil Wilson...
If you most needed someone to dribble end to end who would it be todd mayo or Chris otule?
Those are dumb.
We had 3 guys score double digits....ONLY 3!!!!!!!!!!!!!! and we scored 88 points. Not all 5 players need to be big time scorers on a good basketball team. The sooner a player and a team realize that the sooner they can get down to winning.
There is a ton more to basketball and being a good player than scoring!!!
and while I am sure you are resolute in your beliefs, the stats actually contradict with them.
Quote from: Canadian Dimes on November 29, 2011, 01:11:04 PM
dont mean to be harsh but that is a really low basketball IQ statement. Players are judged on how they can affect an outcome. Vander Blue starts for 2 years now becuse he is one of the 5 guys on the team that most help us do that.
here's one...if you most needed a dunk who would it be Derrick Wilson on Jamil Wilson...
If you most needed someone to dribble end to end who would it be todd mayo or Chris otule?
Those are dumb.
We had 3 guys score double digits....ONLY 3!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
There is a ton more to basketball and being a good player than scoring!!!
and while I am sure you are resolute in your beliefs, the stats actually contradict with them.
As Buzz states, their role is to do the things on the court to help us win.
Quote from: PuertoRicanNightmare on November 29, 2011, 12:50:26 PM
This is meaningless. Of course a 19 year old is going to be more physically mature than an 18 year old. What difference does it make? You can't change his age. All you're doing is admitting Blue was physically overwhelmed last year, which is what some of us have been saying since last January. I don't care if he was 21 or 12. He shouldn't have been playing as many minutes as he did.
Now you completely changed your argument. I brought up age in response to your statement "Matthews was from Wisconsin and he was FAR superior to Blue his freshman year. So was Diener." In that case, age is entirely relevant. Compare this year from Blue to their frosh years and you will get a more meaningful comparison.
Quote from: PuertoRicanNightmare on November 29, 2011, 12:50:26 PM
This is meaningless. Of course a 19 year old is going to be more physically mature than an 18 year old. What difference does it make? You can't change his age. All you're doing is admitting Blue was physically overwhelmed last year, which is what some of us have been saying since last January. I don't care if he was 21 or 12. He shouldn't have been playing as many minutes as he did.
Who should have been getting those minutes? And why?
Quote from: reinko on November 29, 2011, 11:05:08 AM
(http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSpg2cIGXQ2YvU_ptk1PfZwT_2hw-dciqfGNePoSSQJaLsIhdyaC5NT5aHB)
Try a few years earlier.
Quote from: PuertoRicanNightmare on November 29, 2011, 12:06:53 PM
What is your point here? Telling us why Blue was bad last year?
Vander had a nice game last night. 3 points, 9 rebounds and 7 assists (and 3 turnovers) against Jacksonville. Not sure that's grounds for putting his jersey in the rafters just yet. Let's get some perspective. Matthews was from Wisconsin and he was FAR superior to Blue his freshman year. So was Diener. It took Novak until the DePaul game, but when he was a freshman he made the all regional team in the NCAA tournament. All of these guys were from Wisconsin.
my point is two fold
1. Vander had a high ranking coming in and many have ripped him since for not meeting their expectation. My point is i take any ranking of a player from Wisconsin as highly suspect at best. Some will ultimately live up to hype but the learning curve is much longer and many of them ( inordinate) never do.
2. While Vander may not yet have lived up to his ranking hype he is still doing IMO a very good job for MU and absolutely deserves to be in the starting lineup, additionally anyone that rates Vanders game based on how many points he scores is dumb.
I think this all boils down to the perception or fact (you choose) that Vander often does not "finish." Mayo is getting praise because he finishes in much the way DJO does or shows that kind of potential. At the end of the day Blue can fill up every single stat line but until he is peceived to finish more often and with more authority there will be doubters.
I am not ripping him. However, I will admit that I share the perception that he does not always finish in the way that a guy with his skill set might and that perception leaves me wanting more from him.
Quote from: TSN_92 on November 29, 2011, 02:06:38 PM
I think this all boils down to the perception or fact (you choose) that Vander often does not "finish." Mayo is getting praise because he finishes in much the way DJO does or shows that kind of potential. At the end of the day Blue can fill up every single stat line but until he is peceived to finish more often and with more authority there will be doubters.
That's because idiots think the only way you can help a basketball team is by scoring.
I agree with the comments here that Blue looks much better than last year. I enjoy watching him play. I still find it peculiar that his defense, rebounding, passing and driving are excellent, while his shooting is not existent. He seems too talented not to be able to score at will. Defense is much harder to do than shooting. If he can develop his offensive game by completing layups for baskets and shoot mid-range jumpers, he will become an elite player. I believe he can do it. The question is whether he will develop his offense this year or next?
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on November 29, 2011, 02:10:24 PM
That's because idiots think the only way you can help a basketball team is by scoring.
Perhaps there are some people that think that. I think Blue deserves every minute he has played. When you have some post play, DJO, and Jae, I would rather have a better defender than offensive player.