I think those two were the most divisive players I've seen in my 15 years of closely watching the program. For each guy, there was a contingent of fans who would never, ever see the positive aspects of their play. They saw ups and downs in their career but to this day its the contemptible fan reactions I remember most about DJ and SM.
Are we seeing the early stages of Vander joining that duo?
I made that point in another thread and Merritt'sMustache added Buycks to the list. I think it is appropriate to include Buycks in that list.
To answer your question, yes. Pretty sad, too.
Quote from: MUMac on November 23, 2011, 10:28:37 AM
I made that point in another thread and Merritt'sMustache added Buycks to the list. I think it is appropriate to include Buycks in that list.
To answer your question, yes. Pretty sad, too.
On this particular forum, maybe....but I'm waiting to see what rumblings I see at games. I think he could end up in this unfortunate group but I don't think we can tell until the end of this year. This is why underselling and overdelivering is ALWAYS the way to go.
Big fan of Dominic James, always frustrated by Merritt. But I thank them both for their contributions to MU hoops. Just as I will one day thank Vander.
Merritt and Dom both had pretty good freshman years, and didn't seem to progress at the same rate in later years. While I was not an aggressive detractor of them, I was disappointed that they didn't progress from seemingly good 1st years.
Vander's 1st year PT was based on D. Any O he gave us was a bonus. I think Vander has more upside.
I always liked Merritt (a solid but imperfect player) and always really liked James but was not fond of Blue the player at all last year. I never understood why he was getting so many minutes while he was just killing us on the offensive end of the floor. If he so much as touched the ball on a possession, our chances of scoring seemingly went down 50%.
So now I have lowered expectations for him. He was a young freshman a little over his head last year. He's had a year to figure things out. I feel like he is going to be a very useful player for us, just not the superstar the hype from a little over a year ago would have led us to believe. I loved that steal and pass to win the game against Norfolk State on Monday. That says a lot about the kid that he shrugged off a bad night and made a big play at winning time.
Right now he is a good player in an up and down full court game. He's got to find his niche in the grind-it-out halfcourt games we're liable to play against some of our better opponents and when the BEast season starts.
In the end, I think if he continues to play the way he did last year he'll be a polarizing figure, but if he improves like players usually do he won't.
I'm amazed by how many of these threads keep popping up. Does it even register that the more threads that exist questioning why people are disappointed with a player, the more chances people have to justify why they aren't bullish on Blue, and the more it seems like there's a vitriol in the community for the guy?
For everything posted on the internet, there will always be someone that says the polar opposite just to get a reaction. I think there's an interesting conversation to be had about what Blue's ceiling is, how much he can progress this year, what he means to this year's team, and what he needs to do to take that next step. It's a divisive issue because he's potentially important to this team's upside and he's (in my opinion) not far from making that next step and becoming a dangerous offensive weapon. But the internet isn't the best place to have that conversation if you're bugged by negative opinions on a player.
I'm just saying. If you don't like the conversation, don't start it.
This is more of a battle between posters who support Marquette 100% no matter what and those who lose their minds at a moment's notice.
For the rational people, we all love DJ, Merritt and Blue, except in the following cases: DJ shooting a free throw or fading three feet to the side on a 3-pointer, Merritt with his travel spin move in the lane or Vander shooting 0-for-7.
Quote from: DienerTime34 on November 23, 2011, 10:58:44 AM
This is more of a battle between posters who support Marquette 100% no matter what and those who lose their minds at a moment's notice.
For the rational people, we all love DJ, Merritt and Blue, except in the following cases: DJ shooting a free throw or fading three feet to the side on a 3-pointer, Merritt with his travel spin move in the lane or Vander shooting 0-for-7.
You may be misremembering, but DJ was pretty clutch in multiple games hitting threes and free throws. He got a bad rap for FTs b/c of his poor free throw shooting start his senior yr.
I would also add McNeal to this list, he was always easy for people to jump on b/c of his TOs. DJ will forever remain my favorite part of that team for 4 yrs, and it does hurt to hear that he got sour about how MU fans treated him.
It was sad to see the lack of development TC and staff did with Scott.
It was like they signed him to add to the arsenal but he got quickly overlooked with Diener and Novak.
Quote from: DienerTime34 on November 23, 2011, 10:58:44 AM
This is more of a battle between posters who support Marquette 100% no matter what and those who lose their minds at a moment's notice.
For the rational people, we all love DJ, Merritt and Blue, except in the following cases: DJ shooting a free throw or fading three feet to the side on a 3-pointer, Merritt with his travel spin move in the lane or Vander shooting 0-for-7.
You are spot on. Merritt not using his bulk in the lane was mindbending.
Quote from: ringout on November 23, 2011, 12:25:07 PM
You are spot on. Merritt not using his bulk in the lane was mindbending.
+1, I would add that VB and DJ are at a similar junction during their sophomore years. With all the hype DJ had coming back, his play was somewhat of a disappointment after the Duke win in KC that year. It was difficult for him to accept that he was not an all around 20ppg point guard. When he figured out defense and quarterbacking were going to be his calling card during his junior/senior years, he shot up 10 rungs in my all-time MU player list to Top 5 territory (post 1996). Ultimately if he continued to play like Chris Thomas (and Chris Thomas was a much better shooter), we wouldn't have made it to the NCAA's. It was amazing how many possessions ended up in 25-30 ft bombs those couple years, even more amazing was that we kept winning for the most part with those wasted possessions.
Vander's offensive game may change to where he's an all around threat, but I kind of think we would have seen some glimpses of that last year. His ability to change a game with defense like Dominic, I believe, will be where he has the most value to MU.
I think much of this comes from massive expectations. DJ was Crean's highest rated recruit, #36 RSCI as I remember. Merritt was the rare top-100 hometown big man. And Blue is hyped as the five-star gold-medal winner. In the past decade, have there been any MU players that came in with more fanfare, and thus had more room for criticism, than those three?
We're seeing shades of another local, Jamil Wilson, being lined up for similar treatment. It makes me wonder if Deonte Burton might face similar detractors if he isn't a superstar from day one. And maybe this kind of pressure, as much as the crazy father, was the reason Jeronne Maymon felt UT was a better fit.
remember that Merrit had the shoulder problem which really impacted his game in the post. Funny how people read the hype on an unproven HS star and then expect miracles and if they dont meet the high expectations people say they failed. Well I for one would take a DJ or Scott on my team anytime as would most coaches. So just let VB work his way thru college and he may not meet your expectations but remember those are yours and not those of his teammates and coaches.
There seems to be one player like this in every four-year cycle... when I was in school it was Shannon Smith, a gifted offensive player whom O'Neill never trusted due to defensive lapses before he transferred across town.
Merritt was always a face-up 4, whose play elevated with Jackson being the traditional 5 because they knew proper spacing.
I understood the grousing about DJ, but was also disappointed in it. It's damn hard to run an offense, and Tony Miller spoiled me rotten in terms of guttiness, guile and the clutch 3-pointer.
I think Blue is closer to turning the corner than we give him credit for. Prior to the title game, he was 21 for 34 from the field. He's had at least two assists in all five games. He's had at least four steals in two of them. We can argue the quality of the opponent, but still, he was doing a lot of things right.
The zone flustered him... and the team... but his 0-fer gets the most scrutiny because penetrating the lane sometimes comes down to decision-making and sometimes lacking patience. I think he'll be fine.
I have positive thoughts on DJ's career because he capped it with a strong senior season, despite less-than-expected sophomore and junior seasons. If he doesn't get injured in the UConn game I think MU at-worst makes a regional final that year, and maybe more. That and he gave it a go in the tourney that year when he was obviously less than 100 percent.
I have neutral thoughts on SM's career. Never became the go-to post-player you thought he could become after his first two years. One of those guys who was better as a complimentary player than a go-to guy.
I have positive thoughts on VB at this point because of his improvements since last March.
Dominic had his best year as a freshman. Vander I believe had his worst year as a freshman. I think the sky is the limit for Vander as he improves each year. He may end up being the go to guy next year!
James wasn't mistreated like Merritt was...not even close. And Vander, as far as I can gauge, has never been mistreated. He can't shoot. Is that mistreating him? James was criticized for more than just poor shooting. Until he was a senior I had never, ever seen a guy feign injuries as much as he did. It was a joke. and he changed the pronunciation of his name because of dominique Wilkins. That's so lame its not even funny. The treatment Merritt got was absurd. People didn't care for James, but he wasn't mistreated. It seems to me that Vander is not a victim of the fanbase, but expectations. I personally think he'll be Ok...but just OK.
Quote from: PuertoRicanNightmare on November 23, 2011, 06:33:15 PM
James wasn't mistreated like Merritt was...not even close. And Vander, as far as I can gauge, has never been mistreated. He can't shoot. Is that mistreating him? James was criticized for more than just poor shooting. Until he was a senior I had never, ever seen a guy feign injuries as much as he did. It was a joke. and he changed the pronunciation of his name because of dominique Wilkins. That's so lame its not even funny. The treatment Merritt got was absurd. People didn't care for James, but he wasn't mistreated. It seems to me that Vander is not a victim of the fanbase, but expectations. I personally think he'll be Ok...but just OK.
Uh ... OK.
Quote from: PuertoRicanNightmare on November 23, 2011, 06:33:15 PM
James wasn't mistreated like Merritt was...not even close. And Vander, as far as I can gauge, has never been mistreated. He can't shoot. Is that mistreating him? James was criticized for more than just poor shooting. Until he was a senior I had never, ever seen a guy feign injuries as much as he did. It was a joke. and he changed the pronunciation of his name because of dominique Wilkins. That's so lame its not even funny. The treatment Merritt got was absurd. People didn't care for James, but he wasn't mistreated. It seems to me that Vander is not a victim of the fanbase, but expectations. I personally think he'll be Ok...but just OK.
PuertoRicanNightmare, you write that Dominic James would "feign injuries," and that you had never seen any player do so as much as he.
That is stupid, just plain stupid.
Many of us grew frustrated at times with James' play, especially his inconsistency and his unreliable shooting from the floor and the free-throw line.
But to accuse anyone of faking injuries is insultingly stupid. James suffered severe cramping and sustained many injuries. We all saw it and we all know it.
Also, stop the "People just didn't care for James" nonsense/crap. James was and remains a terrific guy, an outstanding athlete and a pretty fine basketball player.
Do all of us a favor: Never speak on our behalf and never declare how we feel or felt about anyone.
You want to know what is "so lame?" Your empty, unfair attack on a good guy who played hard but was the victim of being overhyped.
Quote from: PuertoRicanNightmare on November 23, 2011, 06:33:15 PM
James wasn't mistreated like Merritt was...not even close. And Vander, as far as I can gauge, has never been mistreated. He can't shoot. Is that mistreating him? James was criticized for more than just poor shooting. Until he was a senior I had never, ever seen a guy feign injuries as much as he did. It was a joke. and he changed the pronunciation of his name because of dominique Wilkins. That's so lame its not even funny. The treatment Merritt got was absurd. People didn't care for James, but he wasn't mistreated. It seems to me that Vander is not a victim of the fanbase, but expectations. I personally think he'll be Ok...but just OK.
Are you trying to prove the point of this thread. Did James feign his broken foot too???
Pathetic.
Vander is pretty bad against good competition. It appears he doesn't have a top level game or mental makeup. DJ came out of the gates strong and you could tell he was a good player. Don't get the same vibe with Vander especially when he sometimes seems to be dribbling and shooting with a paw on his drives.
Quote from: PuertoRicanNightmare on November 23, 2011, 06:33:15 PM
James wasn't mistreated like Merritt was...not even close. And Vander, as far as I can gauge, has never been mistreated. He can't shoot. Is that mistreating him? James was criticized for more than just poor shooting. Until he was a senior I had never, ever seen a guy feign injuries as much as he did. It was a joke. and he changed the pronunciation of his name because of dominique Wilkins. That's so lame its not even funny. The treatment Merritt got was absurd. People didn't care for James, but he wasn't mistreated. It seems to me that Vander is not a victim of the fanbase, but expectations. I personally think he'll be Ok...but just OK.
You forgot to add that James wore his arm sleeve simply for vanity, and his tall socks were a move to get more noticed on the court.
Those were your gripes as well, right?
Quote from: PuertoRicanNightmare on November 23, 2011, 06:33:15 PM
James wasn't mistreated like Merritt was...not even close. And Vander, as far as I can gauge, has never been mistreated. He can't shoot. Is that mistreating him? James was criticized for more than just poor shooting. Until he was a senior I had never, ever seen a guy feign injuries as much as he did. It was a joke. and he changed the pronunciation of his name because of dominique Wilkins. That's so lame its not even funny. The treatment Merritt got was absurd. People didn't care for James, but he wasn't mistreated. It seems to me that Vander is not a victim of the fanbase, but expectations. I personally think he'll be Ok...but just OK.
I'm going to go ahead and FEIGN taking this post seriously.
Quote from: 2002MUalum on November 24, 2011, 07:59:27 AM
You forgot to add that James wore his arm sleeve simply for vanity, and his tall socks were a move to get more noticed on the court.
Those were your gripes as well, right?
And that those kids need to sit down and cheer so the rest of us can see.
What a bunch of non-sensical bullshit!! One of the worst posts ever on this board, and that's saying something. DJ was a gamer who fell victim to unrealistic expectations after one of the best, if not the best, Freshman seasons in MU history. For all his shooting woes, it's easy to forget how good James was and how he turned in many clutch performances.
As a matter of fact, James did wear his arm sleeve for vanity. I had forgotten about that, but thanks for pointing it out.
Quote from: MU Avenue on November 24, 2011, 07:01:41 AM
PuertoRicanNightmare, you write that Dominic James would "feign injuries," and that you had never seen any player do so as much as he.
That is stupid, just plain stupid.
It's not stupid. It's a fact. His foot injury was tragic, but because of his history...when it happened...I thought he was faking. I'm 100 percent positive I wasn't alone in that assessment.
PRN: Stop... just stop
Sultan and MU Ave articulated a defense of James well enough that I can only reiterated what they said.
James was a class act all the way
Quote from: PuertoRicanNightmare on November 24, 2011, 10:41:18 AM
It's not stupid. It's a fact. His foot injury was tragic, but because of his history...when it happened...I thought he was faking. I'm 100 percent positive I wasn't alone in that assessment.
I cannot recall the last time I said this to anyone here or anywhere else, but you, PuertoRicanNightmare, need to shut the **** up.
You really thought Dominic James was "feigning" a broken foot. Really? REALLY?
And you really believe that others agreed with your idiotic theory? Really? REALLY?
Stop. Just stop.
Dominic James had a terrific freshman season, and the resulting expectation and hype were more than James could satisfy for the rest of his Marquette career.
PuertoRicanNightmare, your lingering dislike of Dominic James is your creepy issue. Why not make a big-boy effort to let it go.
Happy Thanksgiving to you and to Dominic James.
Quote from: MU Avenue on November 24, 2011, 12:08:16 PM
You really thought Dominic James was "feigning" a broken foot. Really? REALLY?
I think you're a dummy.
I believe the moderators will allow me to say that since you sank to using profanity.
I do not think Dominic James was faking his foot injury but I do understand where PRN was coming from when saying that. Throughout his four years at MU, Dom did have a flair for the dramatics. Being at MU for all four years Dom played, I do recall him getting injured quite often and rolling on the ground multiple times from cramps and ankle injuries. Now I do not believe that any of these injuries were faked, but I do believe their was some acting and overplaying of these injuries.
I was at the game against UCONN when Dom went down. I remember that when he went down, he went straight to the locker room. At that moment, I knew that he was in trouble and that something was wrong, unlike many of his previous injuries. That was the worst moment I can recall as an MU fan as I knew our season as we knew it was finished. I didnt even want to stay for the rest of the game I was so depressed.
Quote from: DiaperDandy on November 24, 2011, 12:20:36 PM
I do not think Dominic James was faking his foot injury but I do understand where PRN was coming from when saying that. Throughout his four years at MU, Dom did have a flair for the dramatics. Being at MU for all four years Dom played, I do recall him getting injured quite often and rolling on the ground multiple times from cramps and ankle injuries. Now I do not believe that any of these injuries were faked, but I do believe their was some acting and overplaying of these injuries.
I was at the game against UCONN when Dom went down. I remember that when he went down, he went straight to the locker room. At that moment, I knew that he was in trouble and that something was wrong, unlike many of his previous injuries. That was the worst moment I can recall as an MU fan as I knew our season as we knew it was finished. I didnt even want to stay for the rest of the game I was so depressed.
As an undergrad that was one of my favorite games to attend. 19,000+ fans and an awesome atmosphere. We even held a lead halfway through the second half but ultimately the loss of Dominic hurt us too much. Still love the guy for playing 4 years @ MU.
Quote from: Ari Gold on November 24, 2011, 12:07:51 PMPRN: Stop... just stop
Sultan and MU Ave articulated a defense of James well enough that I can only reiterated what they said.
James was a class act all the way
+1
This has to be one of the least warranted attacks I've ever seen on a former player. Honestly, as a Marquette fan, it's a bit embarrassing.
I was spoiled by Tony Miller, too, but I was also spoiled by Dom James. He was an explosive ball player, especially at his height. He missed his share of clutch FTs, but he also made his share of clutch plays. The fact he rushed himself back from a broken foot to help his team is one of the gutsiest things I ever saw.
As for Blue, the guy keeps improving his game. That pass at the end of the Norfolk St. game was a great play by a guy who had an off offensive night. I think he will continue to grow as a player. By the end of his MU career, I think he will have left a very positive mark.
Happy Thanksgiving, all.
Quote from: Stronghold on November 24, 2011, 01:04:36 PM
As an undergrad that was one of my favorite games to attend. 19,000+ fans and an awesome atmosphere. We even held a lead halfway through the second half but ultimately the loss of Dominic hurt us too much. Still love the guy for playing 4 years @ MU.
+1, that was the game I was most excited for during my four years at MU. Turned out to be a crappy day though with the loss and DJ getting hurt.
Quote from: marquette09 on November 25, 2011, 12:23:59 AM+1, that was the game I was most excited for during my four years at MU. Turned out to be a crappy day though with the loss and DJ getting hurt.
I really believe in that moment we went from a 2-seed or better to a 6. If James doesn't get injured, I think we would have beat UConn that day, and beat Louisville and Syracuse as well. The timing of that was simply brutal, as well as Acker did he wasn't nearly prepared to fill that big of shoes.
With a healthy James, we would have had a shot at sharing the Big East regular season title, winning the Big East tourney title, and possibly even edging out UConn or Louisville for one of those 1-seeds.
Might that have meant a Final Four? Who knows. But I do think as awesome as that team may have been, we might be better off that they didn't reach those heights. If Buzz wins the Big East, the Big East tourney, and reaches a Final Four in his first year here, those big-time offers wouldn't have taken 2-3 years to start arriving. He would have been at the top of everyone's list, and I think that his first three years in Milwaukee helped solidify his desire to be here.
Maybe Kentucky's first call would have been to Buzz instead of John Calipari in April 2009. If that's the case, does he stay? I doubt it.
At the time, James' injury was one of the most crippling I've seen at Marquette in terms of derailing a season. But three years later, it might have been one of the saving graces for the long-term success of the program.
Quote from: brewcity77 on November 25, 2011, 05:52:25 AM
Maybe Kentucky's first call would have been to Buzz instead of John Calipari in April 2009. If that's the case, does he stay? I doubt it.
Not sure Kentucky is going to call Buzz before Calipari, especially only after one year.
PRN Absolutely false. I went to Richmond High School with Dominic and that has always been how his name has been pronounced. He suffered from cramping in high school as well. And you're right he did have a flare for the dramatics especially in games against teams like Valpo, NC State, and Duke.
Quote from: marquette09 on November 25, 2011, 06:06:08 PMNot sure Kentucky is going to call Buzz before Calipari, especially only after one year.
Probably not, it was just the first high-profile 2009 opening that came to mind. Regardless, it seems far more likely that he'd have jumped on the coaching carousel early if he had been the hottest young name in hoops instead of just one of many up-and-comers.
Hindsight is 20/20 and all, but it's entirely possible that James' injury helped keep Buzz in Milwaukee.
Quote from: naptownEagle on November 25, 2011, 06:20:35 PM
PRN Absolutely false. I went to Richmond High School with Dominic and that has always been how his name has been pronounced. He suffered from cramping in high school as well. And you're right he did have a flare for the dramatics especially in games against teams like Valpo, NC State, and Duke.
BOOM. Winner.
PRN - Literally worst post I've ever seen on this board... and that's saying something.
I'm amazed at the negativity toward DJ. Nic was ALWAYS a class act whenever I had contact with him on and off campus. Great guy, and one hell of a player. We would be lucky to have another player like him. He was a sick defender, and was exciting to watch. I completely believe that MU makes the final four if he stays healthy his senior year. Seeing him go down in that UCONN game was one of the worst memories I have as an MU fan.
Quote from: brewcity77 on November 25, 2011, 05:52:25 AM
I really believe in that moment we went from a 2-seed or better to a 6. If James doesn't get injured, I think we would have beat UConn that day, and beat Louisville and Syracuse as well. The timing of that was simply brutal, as well as Acker did he wasn't nearly prepared to fill that big of shoes.
With a healthy James, we would have had a shot at sharing the Big East regular season title, winning the Big East tourney title, and possibly even edging out UConn or Louisville for one of those 1-seeds.
Might that have meant a Final Four? Who knows. But I do think as awesome as that team may have been, we might be better off that they didn't reach those heights. If Buzz wins the Big East, the Big East tourney, and reaches a Final Four in his first year here, those big-time offers wouldn't have taken 2-3 years to start arriving. He would have been at the top of everyone's list, and I think that his first three years in Milwaukee helped solidify his desire to be here.
Maybe Kentucky's first call would have been to Buzz instead of John Calipari in April 2009. If that's the case, does he stay? I doubt it.
At the time, James' injury was one of the most crippling I've seen at Marquette in terms of derailing a season. But three years later, it might have been one of the saving graces for the long-term success of the program.
The fallacy of the argument that MU would have been a 2 seed or a Final Four team with DJ, is that MU's record in the Big East up until the time DJ went down was built primarily on beating the teams it was supposed to beat. The last 5 games of that season (which DJ missed) were the murderer's row portion of MU's Big East schedule. I suspect MU would have gone 2-2, 2-3 in those last 5 games with James. DJ was certainly a good player and great defender, but Mo Acker showed those last 5 games and the following year that he was a pretty darn solid PG, and actually a much better shooter/offensive threat than DJ
Quote from: Ners on November 25, 2011, 08:04:58 PM
DJ was certainly a good player and great defender, but Mo Acker showed those last 5 games and the following year that he was a pretty darn solid PG, and actually a much better shooter/offensive threat than DJ
I give all the credit in the world to Mo, but I would take DJ over Mo every single time. Better shooter? Yes. Better player? No.
Quote from: Jam Chowder on November 25, 2011, 08:08:39 PM
I give all the credit in the world to Mo, but I would take DJ over Mo every single time. Better shooter? Yes. Better player? No.
+1.
Not sure what that quoted excerpt is thinking. Revisionist (and wrong) history to say that Maurice Acker was a better offensive threat then Dominic James.
Quote from: Ners on November 25, 2011, 08:04:58 PM
The fallacy of the argument . . . a much better shooter/offensive threat
I like the use of these 2 phrases in the same post. I have never seen the term 'shooter/offensive threat' before. My interpretation of that term is that it implies that 3-point shooting percentage equates to value on offense. Even if this were the case, such as Steve Kerr was a much better shooter/offensive threat than Michael Jordan, I would say that DJ more than made up any difference in value between he and Mo Acker on offense on the defensive end.
Quote from: Jam Chowder on November 25, 2011, 08:08:39 PM
I give all the credit in the world to Mo, but I would take DJ over Mo every single time. Better shooter? Yes. Better player? No.
I agree...just was pointing out in that post that to assume MU would have been 1 or 2 seed with a healthy James that year, or a Final Four team - is a bit of a stretch in the sense that the fall off from DJ to Mo Acker was not THAT great. Now the freshman DJ?? That's a different story, but the Sophomore-Senior DJ...not so much. By DJ's senior year, DJ was a GREAT defender, and a solid floor general, but largely a liability offensively other than dunks/layups. His FT shooting and 3 point shooting were poor.
His offensive game fell off a bit, but really what happened was our expectations went sky high after his freshman year. DJ's problem was that he didn't expand beyond his freshman year offensively, but honestly he was essentially the same player.
Quote from: naptownEagle on November 25, 2011, 06:20:35 PM
PRN Absolutely false. I went to Richmond High School with Dominic and that has always been how his name has been pronounced. He suffered from cramping in high school as well. And you're right he did have a flare for the dramatics especially in games against teams like Valpo, NC State, and Duke.
THANK. YOU.
I'm embarrassed to think that PRN says that about former players. DJ was the embodiment of the name Warriors.
Quote from: Ners on November 25, 2011, 08:04:58 PMThe fallacy of the argument that MU would have been a 2 seed or a Final Four team with DJ, is that MU's record in the Big East up until the time DJ went down was built primarily on beating the teams it was supposed to beat. The last 5 games of that season (which DJ missed) were the murderer's row portion of MU's Big East schedule. I suspect MU would have gone 2-2, 2-3 in those last 5 games with James. DJ was certainly a good player and great defender, but Mo Acker showed those last 5 games and the following year that he was a pretty darn solid PG, and actually a much better shooter/offensive threat than DJ
If we got the doors blown off us in those games, I might be inclined to agree. But we didn't. Against UConn, we were in it deep in the second half until they pulled away late. I would argue that with James, they don't pull away. We lost at Louisville by 4. We lost to Syracuse in overtime. I think we win both of those games with James in the lineup. While that would have changed everything in terms of our Big East seeding -- would have been top-3, I honestly don't know which because we'd have been tied with Louisville and Pitt at 15-3 with each team splitting 1-1 against the other two -- I also think we'd have beaten Villanova had we seen them (1 point loss in Big East tourney).
I think that Acker's finish to 2008-09 is some of the most revisionist history I've ever seen by Marquette fans. What Acker did when James went down was essentially become a game-manager. He averaged 5.4 ppg, 2.1 rpg, and 2.9 apg with a 2.5/1 A/T ratio in 30.4 mpg. That's fine for a backup. But James was averaging 11.0 ppg, 3.4 rpg, and 5.0 apg with a 2.7/1 A/T ratio in 31.4 mpg.
Acker did fine, but in every way he was a lesser player than James. In every aspect of his game, as a junior, he was worse than James as a senior. We lost a scoring threat. We lost his rebounding. We lost his assists. And perhaps most important, and not at all contained in these stats, we lost his defense. Does AJ Price torch us for 36 if Buzz can put James on him? Does Andre McGee hit us up for 16 with James covering him? Is Levance Fields putting up 17/10 on James? Does Johnny Flynn drop 24 at the BC with DJ all over him? How about Scottie Reynolds, I'm guessing he doesn't get 21/8/4 at MSG against James.
In four of our five losses after James went down, the leading scorer on the other team was the point guard. The only exception was against Pitt, when DeJuan Blair had 23. It wasn't just James' offense that we lost, it was his defense, and teams exploited that to no end. If James doesn't get injured, I feel I can say with 90% certainty that we beat UConn, Louisville, and Syracuse to finish tied for first in the Big East with UL and Pitt. I'm also confident we would have went at least 1-1, with a win over WVU or Providence and then who knows in the Big East's Final Four.
I don't mean to diminish Acker. He had a great senior season, and he did an okay job as game-manager when James went down. But anyone who acts like we didn't lose a HUGE piece of our team when James went down is simply delusional. And anyone who thinks that we were going to automatically lose to UConn, Louisville, and Syracuse anyway doesn't realize just how good we were that year.
Quote from: Ners on November 25, 2011, 09:48:27 PM
I agree...just was pointing out in that post that to assume MU would have been 1 or 2 seed with a healthy James that year, or a Final Four team - is a bit of a stretch in the sense that the fall off from DJ to Mo Acker was not THAT great. Now the freshman DJ?? That's a different story, but the Sophomore-Senior DJ...not so much. By DJ's senior year, DJ was a GREAT defender, and a solid floor general, but largely a liability offensively other than dunks/layups. His FT shooting and 3 point shooting were poor.
Sorry, not buying what you are selling. The dropoff was huge. Mo's play alone lost the Syracuse game.
Just the presence of DJ makes a difference in the rest of the team. Yes, they were facing the meat of their schedule, but they were jelling. They were focused. Had everything in their sights. DJ's injury took a lot of air out of them.
There was a significant reason why DJ played most of each game and Mo saw very limited action. To state there was little fall off is absurd.