option for them. Donovan has a outstanding, proven track record. Tom has done a good job at MU, but has had a suspect post season.
I would think KU fans and the KU administration would see Crean as a real step down compared to Donovan. Tom has not yet proven he is an elite coach. I think his day will come, but it is not going to happen this time at KU.
Crean will be back, and he has something to prove. For him to move on,( making a BIG assumption he does) Tom has got to prove he can make runs in the post season. One run with D. Wade is not going to get UK seriously interested. As much as his friends Bilas, Fodre and DeCourcy try, Tom needs to win to move to Lexington.
1 could look at their career records and make the argument that crean has done "more with less" at mu than donovans done at florida...interesting stat..tc averages 20 wins over 8 years..bd averages 21.75wins in 12 yrs...
I think this is the lamest arguement. What this states is that recruiting is not an important part in judging a succesful coach. If this arguement was true Jim Larranga would be the greatest coach in the history of the world.
I also hate this argument for pro-sports as it make it impossible for someone like Bobby Cox, or Joe Torre to ever win manager of the year. Shouldnt winning consistently also be part of a good coach.
FYI the coach of the year this year should have been Billy Donovan for living up to expectations and coaching guys who are not nearly as motivated as last year
Quote from: DAtruth on April 01, 2007, 10:46:27 AM
1 could look at their career records and make the argument that crean has done "more with less" at mu than donovans done at florida...interesting stat..tc averages 20 wins over 8 years..bd averages 21.75wins in 12 yrs...
Wow. You have got to be kidding. More with less? What was the Florida bball program like when Donovan took over? How about wallowing in the shadow of Gator football. Donovan has built a great program. Tom has built a good program. I guess the post season become irrelevant in your examining career wins.
Quote from: 79Warrior on April 01, 2007, 11:39:00 AM
Wow. You have got to be kidding. More with less? What was the Florida bball program like when Donovan took over? How about wallowing in the shadow of Gator football.
If by "wallowing" you mean "Recent Final Four team" then you might have a point.
My guess is that you simply forgot that Florida had recently made the final four under Donavan predecessor Lon Krueger.
Despite the numbers and the spin, Dovovan and Crean aren't in the same ballpark. Let me know when Crean is getting ready to collect his second straight national title and then we can discuss it. Until then breaking down the numbers to show comparisons just makes some posters look foolish -- the results will be for all to see tonight at 9:00. (Of course maybe my last two tournament games in person for MU have me biased -- some of you may recall the abortions vs. MSU and Kansas).
Quote from: Final Four or Bust on April 02, 2007, 12:01:42 PM
Despite the numbers and the spin, Dovovan and Crean aren't in the same ballpark. Let me know when Crean is getting ready to collect his second straight national title and then we can discuss it. Until then breaking down the numbers to show comparisons just makes some posters look foolish -- the results will be for all to see tonight at 9:00. (Of course maybe my last two tournament games in person for MU have me biased -- some of you may recall the abortions vs. MSU and Kansas).
My guess is that people are looking to Donovan as a comparison because after he reached that first Final Four his teams were known to flame out in the first weekend of the NCAA Tournament (I think it was 4 or 5 years in a row). It was almost a guarantee. In fact, I remember when they were matched up with Manhattan a couple of years ago and nary a soul would pick the higher seeded Gators. It takes lumps to go with the bumps.
I'm not as down on the team for the MSU game. They played without their best player and for 30 minutes they competed and actually had the advantage. Not saying it wasn't ugly but I think "abortion" is a strong description.
No question in my mind there is a big difference between Donovan and Crean. If I was the Kentucky AD I'd be concerned outside of the 2 years Marq had with the biggest impact guard to come out of college in the last 5 years what has Crean proven he can do. They are going to have to pay HUGE money to get TC away from Marq and he doesn't have the track record of Donovan OR Barnes OR even Prosser at Wake. I've got to beleive that Crean isn't the next guy in line behind Donovan.
Quote from: Coobeys Oil Depot on April 02, 2007, 12:21:14 PM
Quote from: Final Four or Bust on April 02, 2007, 12:01:42 PM
I'm not as down on the team for the MSU game. They played without their best player and for 30 minutes they competed and actually had the advantage. Not saying it wasn't ugly but I think "abortion" is a strong description.
I am -- I have never been more embarrassed -- even at the KU game where the game plan was poor but we were flat out dominated by better players on that night. Frustrating yes, but the players were trying. I haven't given my description of the MSU debacle because I've been furious since. The team showed no heart or emotion in that game -- in pre-game, on the sidelines, during timeouts -- even walking up the ball when they were down by 20 when people in the crowd were imploring them to push the tempo and time was running out. It was embarrassing, the ONLY player that showed that game was Cubillian. The McNeal loss is an excuse -- I saw them dominate Pitt w/o McNeal. He was a big loss but nothing accounted for that game. Yes, I was ticked at the coach, but for the first time in quite some time I was more angry at the players, and their cavalier attitude infuriated me.
There were TWO TV timeouts before we scored a point. The fans stood almost 10 minutes waiting for the first point. That was a travesty.
Quote from: Final Four or Bust on April 02, 2007, 12:35:06 PM
Quote from: Coobeys Oil Depot on April 02, 2007, 12:21:14 PM
Quote from: Final Four or Bust on April 02, 2007, 12:01:42 PM
I'm not as down on the team for the MSU game. They played without their best player and for 30 minutes they competed and actually had the advantage. Not saying it wasn't ugly but I think "abortion" is a strong description.
I am -- I have never been more embarrassed -- even at the KU game where the game plan was poor but we were flat out dominated by better players on that night. Frustrating yes, but the players were trying. I haven't given my description of the MSU debacle because I've been furious since. The team showed no heart or emotion in that game -- in pre-game, on the sidelines, during timeouts -- even walking up the ball when they were down by 20 when people in the crowd were imploring them to push the tempo and time was running out. It was embarrassing, the ONLY player that showed that game was Cubillian. The McNeal loss is an excuse -- I saw them dominate Pitt w/o McNeal. He was a big loss but nothing accounted for that game. Yes, I was ticked at the coach, but for the first time in quite some time I was more angry at the players, and their cavalier attitude infuriated me.
There were TWO TV timeouts before we scored a point. The fans stood almost 10 minutes waiting for the first point. That was a travesty.
Fair enough. Some games cause more heartache then others. You being there in person is most likely the reason why it bothers you so much.
Quote from: Final Four or Bust on April 02, 2007, 12:01:42 PM
Until then breaking down the numbers to show comparisons just makes some posters look foolish -- the results will be for all to see tonight at 9:00.
Not as foolish as those who suggested that Donovan was overpaid and a lousy coach after his multiple "abortions" between 1991 and 1995.
Think--those are they guys who if they had their way would have run off a future national championship coach.
The comparision was not that Crean is equal to Donavan today--the comparison is that just prior to his current success, Donovan had a similar stretch of performance that Crean is going through right now.
But, go ahead--call my continued faith in Crean foolish.
If he leaves, you just might get your wish in a new coach--who may well be the 2nd coming of Bob Dukiet.
Quote from: Coobeys Oil Depot on April 02, 2007, 12:21:14 PM
Quote from: Final Four or Bust on April 02, 2007, 12:01:42 PM
Despite the numbers and the spin, Dovovan and Crean aren't in the same ballpark. Let me know when Crean is getting ready to collect his second straight national title and then we can discuss it. Until then breaking down the numbers to show comparisons just makes some posters look foolish -- the results will be for all to see tonight at 9:00. (Of course maybe my last two tournament games in person for MU have me biased -- some of you may recall the abortions vs. MSU and Kansas).
My guess is that people are looking to Donovan as a comparison because after he reached that first Final Four his teams were known to flame out in the first weekend of the NCAA Tournament (I think it was 4 or 5 years in a row). It was almost a guarantee. In fact, I remember when they were matched up with Manhattan a couple of years ago and nary a soul would pick the higher seeded Gators. It takes lumps to go with the bumps.
You hit the nail on the head. Both Billy and Crean have made nice runs early in their careers only to have rough follow-up years.
It takes some time to establish a winning program and culture, plus MU is on the upswing right now, not the downswing. The team did get beat by MSU, but MU is returning a lot of players and it looking tough next year and the year after that.
If Crean had just lost in the 1st round with a group of seniors, I think I would be more upset, but given the team's youth, I'm still looking forward to the next couple of years under Crean's reign.
Quote from: Marquette84 on April 02, 2007, 02:39:40 PM
Quote from: Final Four or Bust on April 02, 2007, 12:01:42 PM
Until then breaking down the numbers to show comparisons just makes some posters look foolish -- the results will be for all to see tonight at 9:00.
Not as foolish as those who suggested that Donovan was overpaid and a lousy coach after his multiple "abortions" between 1991 and 1995.
Think--those are they guys who if they had their way would have run off a future national championship coach.
The comparision was not that Crean is equal to Donavan today--the comparison is that just prior to his current success, Donovan had a similar stretch of performance that Crean is going through right now.
But, go ahead--call my continued faith in Crean foolish.
If he leaves, you just might get your wish in a new coach--who may well be the 2nd coming of Bob Dukiet.
Some of the people here would have run off John Wooden and Coach K based on their early performances in the NCAA.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on April 02, 2007, 03:23:10 PM
Quote from: Marquette84 on April 02, 2007, 02:39:40 PM
Quote from: Final Four or Bust on April 02, 2007, 12:01:42 PM
Until then breaking down the numbers to show comparisons just makes some posters look foolish -- the results will be for all to see tonight at 9:00.
Not as foolish as those who suggested that Donovan was overpaid and a lousy coach after his multiple "abortions" between 1991 and 1995.
Think--those are they guys who if they had their way would have run off a future national championship coach.
The comparision was not that Crean is equal to Donavan today--the comparison is that just prior to his current success, Donovan had a similar stretch of performance that Crean is going through right now.
But, go ahead--call my continued faith in Crean foolish.
If he leaves, you just might get your wish in a new coach--who may well be the 2nd coming of Bob Dukiet.
Some of the people here would have run off John Wooden and Coach K based on their early performances in the NCAA.
Granted Coach K and Wooden were given long leashes. However, now that coaches are pulling down $1-$2 million per season, the expectations have been raised and rightly so.
You pull down that kind of coin, you better deliver and quick. If you don't you'll soon find yourself coaching SMU (Doherty), S. Florida (Heath) or Harvard (Amaker?).
In other words, be careful what you wish for. These ADs are not paying $2 million for graduation rates. They're paying for wins and Sweet 16s.
Go Warriors and Go Crean.
I disagree, they're paying for success, clean programs and graduation rates (at least at some universities...MU included). Other universities are not, granted.
I don't think a school like MU would trade a few Sweet 16's in exchange for a Cincinnati thug image and 0% graduation rates...in fact I know they wouldn't.
theres only one trophy at the end of the season..300 some odd teams 1 trophy...ntnl championships are great but they can not be a deciding factor when it comes to a coach..a certain "quality of competition" is what i look for as a fan..put a good product on the floor year in and year out and i will take what we get..