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MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: TomEnlundSays on November 10, 2011, 04:45:05 PM

Title: [Enlund's Blog] Blue to start
Post by: TomEnlundSays on November 10, 2011, 04:45:05 PM
Blue to start
               





               

http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/sports/133649583.html
               
Title: Re: [Enlund's Blog] Blue to start
Post by: Wade for President on November 10, 2011, 04:49:13 PM
Told of Cadougan's comment, Williams said, "When you start talking about unsophisticated guys, he's at the top of that list."

Doh!

Title: Re: [Enlund's Blog] Blue to start
Post by: NersEllenson on November 10, 2011, 04:53:35 PM
Quote from: Wade for President on November 10, 2011, 04:49:13 PM
Told of Cadougan's comment, Williams said, "When you start talking about unsophisticated guys, he's at the top of that list."

Doh!

That was AWESOME!!  All these kids know Buzz loves them/cares about them, etc., - but Buzz has no hesitation to challenge his guys/call his guys out/tweak them etc.  Much the way a Parcells, Jimmy Johnson, etc., did.
Title: Re: [Enlund's Blog] Blue to start
Post by: rocky_warrior on November 10, 2011, 05:17:39 PM
Quote from: Wade for President on November 10, 2011, 04:49:13 PM
Told of Cadougan's comment, Williams said, "When you start talking about unsophisticated guys, he's at the top of that list."

I'm not sure how he's translating "unsophisticated" - simple/unrefined, or pure/genuine.  Perhaps it's not that important.  According to the Paint Touches article which interviewed Jay, DJO, and DWill - it sounds like they think Junior is their starting PG too.
Title: Re: [Enlund's Blog] Blue to start
Post by: NotAnAlum on November 10, 2011, 05:39:21 PM
Let the mind games begin.  Did this last year starting Reggie when everyone knew this team would never go anywhere with Reggie as the starting point.  Buzz must think he needs to light a fire under Junior.  In my opinoin it didn't work last year and Junior didn't gain back his confidence until late in the year.  I guess we'll see.
Title: Re: [Enlund's Blog] Blue to start
Post by: tower912 on November 10, 2011, 05:40:26 PM
I predict a 3 guard, all returnee, starting lineup.   Junior will play point, DJO and Blue wings.   
Title: Re: [Enlund's Blog] Blue to start
Post by: esotericmindguy on November 10, 2011, 06:16:53 PM
How does vander blue have a starting spot locked up? Because of some good practices? Good lord, here we go again.
Title: Re: [Enlund's Blog] Blue to start
Post by: PuertoRicanNightmare on November 10, 2011, 06:19:08 PM
Blue must've had a HELLUVA off season.
Title: Re: [Enlund's Blog] Blue to start
Post by: T-Bone on November 10, 2011, 06:31:39 PM
I wouldn't look into who starts game one too much:
http://statsheet.com/mcb/games/2010/11/12/prairie-view-am-58-marquette-97

EWill, Blue, Reggie, Butler and Otule.

Relax and see how the team flows.  A hockey line change or two may show something really interesting.  Half the fun of the cupcakes.
Title: Re: [Enlund's Blog] Blue to start
Post by: avid1010 on November 10, 2011, 06:47:58 PM
Quote from: esotericmindguy on November 10, 2011, 06:16:53 PM
How does vander blue have a starting spot locked up? Because of some good practices? Good lord, here we go again.

Here we go again?  I'm sure Buzz would like to redo last year, every year.  The team goes deeper than expected in the NCAA tournament, JFB gets drafted in the first round, and Buzz gets a nice raise...here we go again!

Something tells me the guy knows what he's doing when it comes to playing who he plays.
Title: Re: [Enlund's Blog] Blue to start
Post by: Golden Avalanche on November 10, 2011, 07:49:16 PM
Quote from: Wade for President on November 10, 2011, 04:49:13 PM
Told of Cadougan's comment, Williams said, "When you start talking about unsophisticated guys, he's at the top of that list."

Doh!



Honesty is his best quality, right?
Title: Re: [Enlund's Blog] Blue to start
Post by: esotericmindguy on November 10, 2011, 08:11:56 PM
Quote from: avid1010 on November 10, 2011, 06:47:58 PM
Here we go again?  I'm sure Buzz would like to redo last year, every year.  The team goes deeper than expected in the NCAA tournament, JFB gets drafted in the first round, and Buzz gets a nice raise...here we go again!

Something tells me the guy knows what he's doing when it comes to playing who he plays.

Seriously? Go back and look at Blue's minutes in respect to when the Golden Eagles played well. He started out playing about 27-28 minutes a game against the scrubs and ended up playing about half of those minutes down the stretch. So here we go again dipsh*t. Has nothing to do with the success of the team, and yes I know Buzz knows what he's doing...but Vander is tease.
Title: Re: [Enlund's Blog] Blue to start
Post by: tower912 on November 10, 2011, 08:20:25 PM
Right.   It is impossible he has improved and we should just assume that what we saw as a freshman is as good as he is ever going to get.    ::)
Title: Re: [Enlund's Blog] Blue to start
Post by: avid1010 on November 10, 2011, 08:22:48 PM
Quote from: esotericmindguy on November 10, 2011, 08:11:56 PM
Seriously? Go back and look at Blue's minutes in respect to when the Golden Eagles played well. He started out playing about 27-28 minutes a game against the scrubs and ended up playing about half of those minutes down the stretch. So here we go again dipsh*t. Has nothing to do with the success of the team, and yes I know Buzz knows what he's doing...but Vander is tease.

Tough guy with the dipsh*t talk over a computer...keep it classy pal.

I don't believe Vander is a tease.  I believe it's important we get players like Vander as many minutes as possible before the BEAST season, and if you believe that Buzz knows what he's doing, then why is he giving all the minutes to a tease?  
Title: Re: [Enlund's Blog] Blue to start
Post by: Henry Sugar on November 10, 2011, 09:16:19 PM
Quote from: Wade for President on November 10, 2011, 04:49:13 PM
Told of Cadougan's comment, Williams said, "When you start talking about unsophisticated guys, he's at the top of that list."

Doh!

The unsophisticated comment needs to be taken in the context of Buzz's press conference.

http://youtu.be/KFY0w95heAk

He mentions "unsophisticated" about five minutes or so before he talks about Junior, but Buzz uses the term in a positive context.  As in... our guys don't have a set practice schedule.  We bounce around because we're busy with classes.  We just work hard every day. 

I view unsophisticated as a synonym for grinder in "Buzz"
Title: Re: [Enlund's Blog] Blue to start
Post by: g0lden3agle on November 10, 2011, 11:50:08 PM
Quote from: esotericmindguy on November 10, 2011, 08:11:56 PM
Seriously? Go back and look at Blue's minutes in respect to when the Golden Eagles played well. He started out playing about 27-28 minutes a game against the scrubs and ended up playing about half of those minutes down the stretch. So here we go again dipsh*t. Has nothing to do with the success of the team, and yes I know Buzz knows what he's doing...but Vander is tease.

Forgive Avid for interpreting your line of "Because of some good practices? Good lord, here we go again." to mean that you're in the camp of people that constantly question Buzz's starting lineup based on who practices the hardest.  Oh wait, there's no other way to interpret that line.
Title: Re: [Enlund's Blog] Blue to start
Post by: Ellenson Guerrero on November 11, 2011, 12:30:10 AM
Could really care less who is starting tomorrow night... or even on January 1st for that matter. At the end of the games in crunch time we will be seeing Cad, DJO, Wilson, Crowder and Otule and I like the sound of that
Title: Re: [Enlund's Blog] Blue to start
Post by: mileskishnish72 on November 11, 2011, 05:43:50 AM
Or could have the offense/defense subbing with DG on O.
Title: Re: [Enlund's Blog] Blue to start
Post by: GGGG on November 11, 2011, 08:02:35 AM
Quote from: esotericmindguy on November 10, 2011, 08:11:56 PM
Seriously? Go back and look at Blue's minutes in respect to when the Golden Eagles played well. He started out playing about 27-28 minutes a game against the scrubs and ended up playing about half of those minutes down the stretch. So here we go again dipsh*t. Has nothing to do with the success of the team, and yes I know Buzz knows what he's doing...but Vander is tease.


Oh GMAFB.  Vander was a freshman...and like most freshman are inconsistant and have parts of their game that need development.

Interesting that Vander can be so derided and called a "tease," yet Davante (whose stats were no better and who rode the bench for most of the BE season) is praised for his "potential."
Title: Re: [Enlund's Blog] Blue to start
Post by: NersEllenson on November 11, 2011, 08:17:02 AM
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on November 11, 2011, 08:02:35 AM

Oh GMAFB.  Vander was a freshman...and like most freshman are inconsistant and have parts of their game that need development.

Interesting that Vander can be so derided and called a "tease," yet Davante (whose stats were no better and who rode the bench for most of the BE season) is praised for his "potential."

How are you going to say Davante stats were no better than Blue's last year - particularly in Big East play???!!  I have high hopes for Vander, but to make this the above statement is LUDICROUS.  Vander fell off significantly in Big East play, and Gardner, when given an opportunity, flourished in his limited minutes - at least from an offensive efficiency standpoint.  Also pretty sure I didn't hear Roy Williams or Coach K say, "We didn't have an answer for Blue," yet they did say that about Gardner...
Title: Re: [Enlund's Blog] Blue to start
Post by: Brewtown Andy on November 11, 2011, 08:19:31 AM
Quote from: Wade for President on November 10, 2011, 04:49:13 PM
Told of Cadougan's comment, Williams said, "When you start talking about unsophisticated guys, he's at the top of that list."

Doh!

If you listen to the audio of this (up on MUTV Sports' site and available as a podcast from MU), Buzz is half laughing when he says this.

I got the impression Buzz just thought that Junior doesn't have a filter when it comes to talking to the media, or at all, maybe.
Title: Re: [Enlund's Blog] Blue to start
Post by: dgies9156 on November 11, 2011, 08:24:33 AM
I hope this is indicative of significant growth on Vander's part this year. The good news is that if it is, it is a signal to anyone else looking at our program that Buzz can coach four- and five-star quality players and move them to the next level.

Also, if it is, it is a sign that we are as good as our press clippings say we might be.

On the other hand, Vander started early last year as well. It was the Big East season that did him in.

I'm hoping that this is the first of many good things to come this year.
Title: Re: [Enlund's Blog] Blue to start
Post by: GGGG on November 11, 2011, 08:41:46 AM
Quote from: Ners on November 11, 2011, 08:17:02 AM
How are you going to say Davante stats were no better than Blue's last year - particularly in Big East play???!!  I have high hopes for Vander, but to make this the above statement is LUDICROUS. 


Vander had double digit minutes for every BE game except four.  Davante reached that mark in only six BE games (including the tournament) and had a couple DNPs.  By the end of the year, while Davante was more efficient, Vander had more points, rebounds, steals and an equal number of blocks per game.

So statistically they were relatively equal - my point stands and not as "LUDICROUS" as you think.

Furthermore, Vander played those minutes because he could defend.  Davante was more efficient offensively, but could defend as well as the chair I am sitting in right now.
Title: Re: [Enlund's Blog] Blue to start
Post by: MUMac on November 11, 2011, 08:49:53 AM
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on November 11, 2011, 08:41:46 AM

Vander had double digit minutes for every BE game except four.  Davante reached that mark in only six BE games (including the tournament) and had a couple DNPs.  By the end of the year, while Davante was more efficient, Vander had more points, rebounds, steals and an equal number of blocks per game.

So statistically they were relatively equal - my point stands and not as "LUDICROUS" as you think.

Furthermore, Vander played those minutes because he could defend.  Davante was more efficient offensively, but could defend as well as the chair I am sitting in right now.

Sultan, you hit to it a bit.  Too many people focus solely on one end of the court - offensive.  Yes, those are the sexy numbers to look at and compare.  I like Devante and see his potential.  He was put in, though, for scoring only.  His rebounding and defense were, well let's be nice, not up to his offensive game. 

Vander, on the other hand, was put in more for defense and help rebounding.  Hard to compare those two in stats when their purposes on seeing the court were entirely different.
Title: Re: [Enlund's Blog] Blue to start
Post by: esotericmindguy on November 11, 2011, 08:53:44 AM
Quote from: avid1010 on November 10, 2011, 08:22:48 PM
Tough guy with the dipsh*t talk over a computer...keep it classy pal.

I don't believe Vander is a tease.  I believe it's important we get players like Vander as many minutes as possible before the BEAST season, and if you believe that Buzz knows what he's doing, then why is he giving all the minutes to a tease?  

Didn't I just explain this, he's a tease. He looks great in practice, pickup games, and against inferior opponents. But to start a 2 guard that can't shoot in college basketball is a huge mistake....especially considering your PG is an average perimeter shooter. Buzz does know what he's doing, which is why he used him as a defender off the bench down the stretch. If this guy wasn't a top 50 kid no way anyone would argue the point....you don't become a good shooter in 6 months.

And it's not really tough guy talk, but someone who turns a vander blue comment into a sweet 16 appearance is most likely a dipsh*t.
Title: Re: [Enlund's Blog] Blue to start
Post by: GGGG on November 11, 2011, 08:55:57 AM
Thank you.

Ners post is exactly the problem that I am talking about.  And frankly it is about expectations.  We expected more from Vander, so we are critical of his play.  We didn't expect much from Davante, and we are thrilled with his play.  I'm not saying that one is better or more valuable than the other, just that the adjectives that we use to describe each of them are bizarrely different.  

And they shouldn't be.  Both were freshman with holes in their games.
Title: Re: [Enlund's Blog] Blue to start
Post by: GGGG on November 11, 2011, 08:57:38 AM
Quote from: esotericmindguy on November 11, 2011, 08:53:44 AM
Didn't I just explain this, he's a tease. He looks great in practice, pickup games, and against inferior opponents. But to start a 2 guard that can't shoot in college basketball is a huge mistake....


Hyperbolic much?
Title: Re: [Enlund's Blog] Blue to start
Post by: 79Warrior on November 11, 2011, 11:39:54 AM
Quote from: esotericmindguy on November 10, 2011, 08:11:56 PM
Seriously? Go back and look at Blue's minutes in respect to when the Golden Eagles played well. He started out playing about 27-28 minutes a game against the scrubs and ended up playing about half of those minutes down the stretch. So here we go again dipsh*t. Has nothing to do with the success of the team, and yes I know Buzz knows what he's doing...but Vander is tease.

Why don't you see how he plays this season before you write him off.
Title: Re: [Enlund's Blog] Blue to start
Post by: BrewCity83 on November 11, 2011, 02:18:05 PM
The best thing about Freshmen is that they become Sophomores.
Title: Re: [Enlund's Blog] Blue to start
Post by: jeffreyweee on November 11, 2011, 02:27:33 PM
I think Vander and Gardner will shine tonight. Gardner might get every single offensive rebound when he's in the game and Vander is going to be about 1000x too quick for MSM and should get to the rim at will.
Title: Re: [Enlund's Blog] Blue to start
Post by: APieperFan3 on November 11, 2011, 02:41:42 PM
Quote from: BrewCity on November 11, 2011, 02:18:05 PM
The best thing about Freshmen is that they become Sophomores.

Who said that?
Title: Re: [Enlund's Blog] Blue to start
Post by: PuertoRicanNightmare on November 11, 2011, 03:22:12 PM
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on November 11, 2011, 08:02:35 AM

Vander was a freshman...and like most freshman are inconsistant and have parts of their game that need development.

Interesting that Vander can be so derided and called a "tease," yet Davante (whose stats were no better and who rode the bench for most of the BE season) is praised for his "potential."
Davante was inconsistent, but showed flashes of greatness. Vander was very consistent. Consistently bad. Bad shot selection, literally dribbling the ball of his foot. Throwing the ball away. At the end of the season I'm not even sure he was a high major basketball player. Honestly, he reminded me a lot of Brandon Bell last year, but Bell had the good sense to rarely shoot. Hopefully that was a just a confidence issue. Vander's got a clean slate and I hope he gets off to a good start.

Title: Re: [Enlund's Blog] Blue to start
Post by: GGGG on November 11, 2011, 03:30:52 PM
No PRN....Vander could defend.  Basketball is played on both ends of the court you know.
Title: Re: [Enlund's Blog] Blue to start
Post by: PuertoRicanNightmare on November 11, 2011, 03:44:12 PM
I guess that's why Buzz consistently substituted for Blue on defensive possessions during close games.
Title: Re: [Enlund's Blog] Blue to start
Post by: NersEllenson on November 11, 2011, 05:09:33 PM
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on November 11, 2011, 08:41:46 AM

Vander had double digit minutes for every BE game except four.  Davante reached that mark in only six BE games (including the tournament) and had a couple DNPs.  By the end of the year, while Davante was more efficient, Vander had more points, rebounds, steals and an equal number of blocks per game.

So statistically they were relatively equal - my point stands and not as "LUDICROUS" as you think.

Furthermore, Vander played those minutes because he could defend.  Davante was more efficient offensively, but could defend as well as the chair I am sitting in right now.

It doesn't matter how many minutes a guy played in the Big East - it is what did he do in those minutes?  Vander was terrible in Big East play.  As you know I am the biggest fanboy on this site - and for me to say a player was terrible...well, they were pretty bad.  I think Vander has great upside, but to argue he and Gardner were playing at a similar level in Big East play is ridiculous.

So Vander scored 35 more points in the season than Gardner - yet he played 407 more minutes than Gardner - this is the equivalent of 10 games!!  I believe Vander scored roughly 33 of his 187 points in the season in Big East play...

Here there stats are head to head:

http://statsheet.com/mcb/players/compare?add=davante-gardner&p1=vander-blue
Title: Re: [Enlund's Blog] Blue to start
Post by: nyg on November 11, 2011, 05:35:40 PM
Everyone has made valid points and arguments regarding Vander's defense, comparison with Gardner, etc.

I believe the reason Buzz is starting Vander is to regain his confidence and to re-energize his ability that he showed as a five/four star player.  Sometimes it is a mental issue as a starter.  Maybe starting over Jamil Wilson is the jump start, along with Buzz's liking to a three guard offense.

As the season progresses and MU starts playing more competitive teams, Vander must improve his shooting over last year which was 39% FG, 16% 3-point and 60% FT.  Defense aside, if he does not improve, his minutes may seriously decrease. 

I wish him the best of luck because he does have the natural ability and seems like a great kid. 
Title: Re: [Enlund's Blog] Blue to start
Post by: tower912 on November 11, 2011, 05:38:26 PM
I think DG has a huge upside and agree that he had some games where he was an offensive force.   The reason he didn't play more was his defense.    He could not get around the man he was guarding when the ball got rotated from side to side, leaving him helplessly pinned behind his man.   He couldn't rotate to help on defense.    He had more games where he came in, gave up about 3-4 baskets in two minutes, and left, never to return.    He gave up more than he scored, pure and simple.    When he scored more than he gave up, he stayed in.   I expect he will be better this year, with his new, improved body.  
Title: Re: [Enlund's Blog] Blue to start
Post by: GGGG on November 11, 2011, 06:02:56 PM
Quote from: Ners on November 11, 2011, 05:09:33 PM
It doesn't matter how many minutes a guy played in the Big East - it is what did he do in those minutes?  Vander was terrible in Big East play.  As you know I am the biggest fanboy on this site - and for me to say a player was terrible...well, they were pretty bad.  I think Vander has great upside, but to argue he and Gardner were playing at a similar level in Big East play is ridiculous.


I didn't argue anything about BE play...YOU brought it up.  I said they were statistically similar last year, which is true measured per game.  Furthermore, there is nothing that measures defense that I can tell, which is the reason he played anyway.
Title: Re: [Enlund's Blog] Blue to start
Post by: Earl Tatum on November 11, 2011, 06:05:12 PM
What Happened to Junior? Still think he's the man at the point.
Title: Re: [Enlund's Blog] Blue to start
Post by: PuertoRicanNightmare on November 11, 2011, 06:28:51 PM
Quote from: nyg on November 11, 2011, 05:35:40 PM
I believe the reason Buzz is starting Vander is to regain his confidence and to re-energize his ability that he showed as a five/four star player. 

I agree with this, but it can also backfire as it did last year (rather spectacularly IMO).
Title: Re: [Enlund's Blog] Blue to start
Post by: NersEllenson on November 11, 2011, 08:08:30 PM
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on November 11, 2011, 08:02:35 AM

Oh GMAFB.  Vander was a freshman...and like most freshman are inconsistant and have parts of their game that need development.

Interesting that Vander can be so derided and called a "tease," yet Davante (whose stats were no better and who rode the bench for most of the BE season) is praised for his "potential."

What part of this is you NOT bringing up Davante's performance in the Big East??!   You made the above statement, which I commented on, and then made the below statement??  Pardon me for reading your first statement above as Davante not doing much in Big East play since he "rode the bench for most of the BE season."

Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on November 11, 2011, 06:02:56 PM

I didn't argue anything about BE play...YOU brought it up.  I said they were statistically similar last year, which is true measured per game.  Furthermore, there is nothing that measures defense that I can tell, which is the reason he played anyway.

Title: Re: [Enlund's Blog] Blue to start
Post by: GGGG on November 11, 2011, 08:18:49 PM
Quote from: Ners on November 11, 2011, 08:08:30 PM
What part of this is you NOT bringing up Davante's performance in the Big East??!   You made the above statement, which I commented on, and then made the below statement??  Pardon me for reading your first statement above as Davante not doing much in Big East play since he "rode the bench for most of the BE season."


Ah...OK.  I meant those to be seperate statements....
Title: Re: [Enlund's Blog] Blue to start
Post by: rocky_warrior on November 12, 2011, 01:47:18 AM
Just to get back to the original topic...Buzz's post game quote:

QuoteAs long as I'm here, unless Junior tears his Achilles', that's my boy. And what I should have said on media day is, 'I'm starting Junior and I don't know the other four.' Junior's starting. Nothing against Derrick, I'm telling you just what I said to Tess. Junior and Chris have absolutely absorbed all that there is to absorb from my nuttiness. And I absolutely admire and respect who they are as people and both of those young men, because of the experience at Marquette, their lives are changed. Their lives are not changed when they leave here, their lives are changed now. They've already went through the evolution. There are only two ways to change: evolution and revolution. I'm not going to kill them. Those guys have evolved in ways as 18 years as a Division I coach that I've never seen. And those guys have two years left, I'm just telling you, I'm riding with them two cats. Win or lose, you will never hear me not stick up for those two guys because those dudes show up every single day with me. They show up every single day at class, in study hall, off the court, on the court, wherever they go. You can't find better representation. I'd rather let them talk than me talk because they're better people than I am. Both of them. So junior was starting. I just like playing games with y'all.
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