The first public show of division b/t the basketball schools and football schools?
http://www.boston.com/sports/colleges/extras/colleges_blog/2011/10/big_easts_fate.html
"The basketball factions were adamant about not adding anyone, while the football faction argued that if the Big East is going to survive as a BCS conference, whose champion gained automatic entry to a BCS bowl it is imperative for Boise State, with its high national ranking was a necessity for survival."
...
The problem the Big East has simply of coming to an agreement on anything. Central Florida and Temple are poised to become new members, but had yet to receive the call simply because the basketball and football schools could not reach an understanding.
If there is a consensus about anything in the Big East is that no matter what happens, none of the schools who are leaving or contemplating leaving will be allowed to depart until the 27 month waiting period put in for defecting teams expires, which means that no Big East school could join their new conferences before the start of the 2014 season.
"
...
http://www.nj.com/rutgersfootball/index.ssf/2011/10/big_east_expansion_talks_cloud.html
"If the Big East can't make it through its latest crisis, the reason for its demise will be simple: Too many people are pulling in too many directions at the foundering league at a time when a selfless, united front is the conference's only chance at survival.
"There's no unity. They can't get everyone on the same page, and that's a major problem," said one leading college official, who requested anonymity because he is not authorized to publicly comment on league business."
...
•Though Boise State is the Big East's best chance to retain its automatic bid to the BCS when the next evaluation period comes up in 2014, Louisville, Cincinnati and South Florida are lukewarm to the idea.
And Boise won't commit to the league until the six holdover football schools do;
• The basketball schools proposed doubling the exit penalty to $10 million while also asking for a 15-year commitment. The football schools have flatly rejected that, causing a bigger fissure between the two sides;
• Villanova spent part of yesterday's conference call undermining Temple as an expansion candidate, saying it would accept the Owls as a football member only. The football schools want Temple as an all-sports addition;
• The football schools are trying to put together an expansion plan that meets with approval from the basketball schools, since DePaul's vote on any proposal counts as much as West Virginia's (or Rutgers')."
Wow....are the basketball schools actually playing hardball here? Hoping that they can either force an addition of basketball schools, or maybe trying to force the football schools out? Good to hear!
Bottom line is if you loose WV, ND, Ville, Uconn, and Cincy We will become the 6th best bball Conf in the country. If you are telling me that Gtown, Vill, MU, St john, Xavier, and Butler can carry a conf and compete with Big Ten, Sec, Big 12, and the ACC I just don't see it.
But if you keep those schools, and add a bunch of UCF and ECU type schools, you really aren't any better...just bigger.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on October 12, 2011, 08:53:52 PM
But if you keep those schools, and add a bunch of UCF and ECU type schools, you really aren't any better...just bigger.
And then if UConn, Rutgers, WVU, Louisville and Cincy eventually leave anyway, we're stuck with UCF, ECU, SMU, Houston, etc.
Damn. Looks like BE is poised for IMPLOSION.
Are the basketball teams really thinking they're THAT elite just as a basketball conference?
Can they REALLY get top money without adding the football teams?
What's MU's position?
Agreed, want to see basketball stay strong. Just for fun, took the best college basketball teams basically in the BE footprint based on www.kenpom.com, and then noted if they were in the tourney and th rank of their football in www.masseyratings.com. I know some keep asking about Memphis, which I'd be great with for basketball, but their football team is not only once again rated as the worst (120th of 120) FBS football program, but as the 199th best program in all divisions, meaning most FCS teams are better than them. Obvoiusly most of these wouldn't be considered, but if the basketball schools finally decided we were just going to build the best basketball conference possible while keeping to the footprint, here is what you have (I included UCF since USF is there, but otherwise didn't include deep south or western teams):
19. Belmont (Tennessee, 13-seed) - no football
28. George Mason (8-seed)- no football
38. Temple (7-seed)- 48th best football
41. Butler (8-seed, national runner-up)- FCS football
43. Richmond (12-seed, Sweet 16)- FCS football
45. Xavier (6-seed, but first round loss :-) )- no football
48. Old Dominion (9-seed)- new FCS football
52. VCU (11-seed, Final Four)- no football
61. Duquesne- FCS football
63. UAB (12-seed)- 173rd ranked football, behind many FCS schools
64. Iona- no football
65. Oakland (13-seed)- no football
76. Cleveland State- no football
86. Marshall- 87th ranked football
87. Memphis (12-seed) - 199th best football (worse than 78 NON-FBS teams, 120th of 120 FBS teams)
92. Drexel- no football
93. Morehead State (13-seed)- FCS football
95. Creighton- no football
97. Kent State- 139th ranked football
98. Fairfield- no football
100. Dayton- FCS football
101. Indiana State (14-seed)- FCS football
102. Central Florida- 65th best football - basketball was actually ranked in the top 25 early in the year and they will only get better.
103. Bucknell (14-seed)- FCS football
UPDATE: Its Looks Worse
http://www.nj.com/rutgersfootball/index.ssf/2011/10/big_east_expansion_talks_cloud.html
Big East expansion talks clouded by different agendas
On Tuesday, the six Big East football schools held their own conference call to plot the league's future. Today, there was an all-sports call devoted to the same topic — followed by one involving the basketball (or non-football playing) schools. Again, the same subject matter.
Three calls in two days, all designed to set a course for the league's future, all with different agendas involving three disparate factions.
If the Big East can't make it through its latest crisis, the reason for its demise will be simple: Too many people are pulling in too many directions at the foundering league at a time when a selfless, united front is the conference's only chance at survival.
"There's no unity. They can't get everyone on the same page, and that's a major problem," said one leading college official, who requested anonymity because he is not authorized to publicly comment on league business.
The Big East's goal is to get to 12 schools in football by adding six more, and then splitting into two divisions.
But for now, this is America's most dysfunctional conference — one that lost a member (TCU) before it ever joined and has two schools, Pittsburgh and Syracuse, that have announced they are leaving for the ACC but may be in the league for two more years.
At the same time the Big East is looking to expand, it has up to four schools — Rutgers, Connecticut, Louisville and West Virginia — seeking an escape to other conferences. Those wandering-eye four are simultaneously working to keep the Big East together as a fallback.
Today, Rutgers athletic director Tim Pernetti updated the school's Board of Governors on the conference expansion front.
But unlike other schools around the nation, Rutgers did not make any formal proclamations giving Pernetti authority to seek out a new conference home while couching under the "best interests" of the school or the athletic program.
Pernetti didn't receive that public approval, meaning one of two things: Either Rutgers is not at that point where he needs it yet, or he has already received it. Pernetti declined comment on that matter.
Though Rutgers has been on the expansion radar of both the ACC and the Big Ten the past two years, Pernetti said he is continuing to work to prop up the Big East.
"No one in any way can look at us as not trying to be a willing participant in making our own situation the best it possibly can be, and the situation for the others in the Big East, as well," he said.
Pernetti said he "would defer that question to the league" when asked about a timetable for Big East expansion.
As for that expansion, another top college official said the conference's football schools — though there are just six now — can't even come to a consensus on adding Boise State for football only.
That official, who also requested anonymity because of private nature of the conversations the past two days, gave an insight into just how fractured the league is:
Though Boise State is the Big East's best chance to retain its automatic bid to the BCS when the next evaluation period comes up in 2014, Louisville, Cincinnati and South Florida are lukewarm to the idea.
And Boise won't commit to the league until the six holdover football schools do;
The basketball schools proposed doubling the exit penalty to $10 million while also asking for a 15-year commitment. The football schools have flatly rejected that, causing a bigger fissure between the two sides;
Villanova spent part of yesterday's conference call undermining Temple as an expansion candidate, saying it would accept the Owls as a football member only. The football schools want Temple as an all-sports addition;
The football schools are trying to put together an expansion plan that meets with approval from the basketball schools, since DePaul's vote on any proposal counts as much as West Virginia's (or Rutgers').
The next big threat to the Big East's future could come from the Big 12, which reportedly has Louisville and West Virginia in its sights if it goes to 12 schools — whether Missouri stays or bolts for the SEC.
Even though those two would be required to stay two more years, their departure would spell the end of Big East football by 2014, at least as a BCS conference. Losing those two could also affect the basketball side, since Notre Dame would likely withdraw from the Big East in that scenario.
While the league doesn't have a timetable for adding new schools, the conference's TV contract is up a year from now, with its BCS review in two years. All of which reinforces how in flux the Big East and its current membership is.
"Everybody in the league is very committed to accomplishing and finding those opportunities and executing upon them as quickly as possible," he said. "At the same time, I think a lot of what is happening out there in expansion is out of a lot of people's control.
"The reason there's so much anxiety out there is because it's all about control."
Quote from: bamamarquettefan on October 12, 2011, 11:23:53 PM
Agreed, want to see basketball stay strong. Just for fun, took the best college basketball teams basically in the BE footprint based on www.kenpom.com, and then noted if they were in the tourney and th rank of their football in www.masseyratings.com.
I like the idea, but at least for the basketball rankings I think I'd do an average rating over the last 7 years to help normalize things a bit. Like Dayton - they were 100 this past year, but before that they were 26, 78, 70, 120, 137, 104 for a 90 average. The order comes out a lot different. You may want to drop Memphis down a few spots because of the coaching change, but even then, there's 10 more schools with a kenpom average less than 100...
29 Memphis (12-seed) - 199th best football (worse than 78 NON-FBS teams, 120th of 120 FBS teams)
36 Marquette
40 Xavier (6-seed, but first round loss :-) )- no football
54 Butler (8-seed, national runner-up)- FCS football
64 Temple (7-seed)- 48th best football
67 UAB (12-seed)- 173rd ranked football, behind many FCS schools
72 Creighton- no football
74 Old Dominion (9-seed)- new FCS football
76 VCU (11-seed, Final Four)- no football
89 Kent State- 139th ranked football
91 Dayton- FCS football
92 George Mason (8-seed)- no football
135 Drexel- no football
136 Belmont (Tennessee, 13-seed) - no football
140 Central Florida- 65th best football - basketball was actually ranked in the top 25 early in the year and they will only get better.
141 Richmond (12-seed, Sweet 16)- FCS football
146 Marshall- 87th ranked football
147 Indiana State (14-seed)- FCS football
150 Oakland (13-seed)- no football
155 Duquesne- FCS football
157 Cleveland State- no football
166 Bucknell (14-seed)- FCS football
167 Iona- no football
168 Fairfield- no football
219 Morehead State (13-seed)- FCS football
As you know, posting all the data here gets messy, so I only include the 7 year average. Feel free to check my numbers though :)
(edited list to add Marquette for comparison)
Quote from: Aughnanure on October 13, 2011, 12:41:43 AM
UPDATE: Its Looks Worse
Actually, I'd argue it looks better. The basketball schools are united and are going to force the football schools to either commit for the long term, or go to another conference. They don't want the conference to get unsettled by football BS again.
Frankly, I agree with them, even if it means we lose some good basketball schools.
One exceptions is that Villanova should probably be more flexible about Temple *if* the football schools commit for the long term.
Quote from: rocky_warrior on October 13, 2011, 01:14:58 AM
Actually, I'd argue it looks better. The basketball schools are united and are going to force the football schools to either commit for the long term, or go to another conference. They don't want the conference to get unsettled by football BS again.
Frankly, I agree with them, even if it means we lose some good basketball schools.
One exceptions is that Villanova should probably be more flexible about Temple *if* the football schools commit for the long term.
I agree with Rocky Warrior here. The only way to truely stablize the conference if the current members make a commitment to stay. I'm sure TCU would have stayed if the remaining members made the committed. Obviously they didn't. If they commit then the league can move forward with expansion and keep basketball strong and also create the best possible football conference as possible (in relative to all things considered). If members treat it like Plan B with one eye on running at the first chance nothing will work and it will surely implode. No new team will want to join what they see as a sinking ship. It worked out far better than anticipated after the 2003 debacle. It worked so good in fact the ACC got very jealous and felt it necessary to once again try to detabilize and ruin it. I also agree Villanova should be flexible.
Yep, the bball schools know that the fball schools aren't committed to the conference in the long-run, which is why they won't increase the exit fees. I am very glad that they are sticking together. I've said all along, as long as MU remains with Georgetown, Nova and St. Johns, we will be fine.
Quote from: Litehouse on October 12, 2011, 09:39:26 PM
And then if UConn, Rutgers, WVU, Louisville and Cincy eventually leave anyway, we're stuck with UCF, ECU, SMU, Houston, etc.
+1000
Quote from: rocky_warrior on October 13, 2011, 01:14:58 AM
Actually, I'd argue it looks better. The basketball schools are united and are going to force the football schools to either commit for the long term, or go to another conference. They don't want the conference to get unsettled by football BS again.
Frankly, I agree with them, even if it means we lose some good basketball schools.
One exceptions is that Villanova should probably be more flexible about Temple *if* the football schools commit for the long term.
+10000
Quote from: rocky_warrior on October 13, 2011, 01:14:58 AM
Actually, I'd argue it looks better. The basketball schools are united and are going to force the football schools to either commit for the long term, or go to another conference. They don't want the conference to get unsettled by football BS again.
Frankly, I agree with them, even if it means we lose some good basketball schools.
One exceptions is that Villanova should probably be more flexible about Temple *if* the football schools commit for the long term.
I meant worse as in the instability of the league, I agree it actually looks better - at least from my point of view. Its about time the bball-schools started uniting.
My one question though, is Notre Dame part of this bball faction?
I think we have to face the music. The last few years and the next couple will be the conference highlights in Marquette history. After that we move down a notch and there is nothing that is going to prevent it without a huge shake up in the NCAA. We are seeing free enterprise in its prime. That is also being eroded gradually.
The big schools will never allow the NCAA to have a say in conference reallignment. Marquette will be fine.
Seems Providence fans believe Notre Dame is part of this faction.
http://mbd.scout.com/mb.aspx?s=425&f=1323&t=8082200
Quote from: rocky_warrior on October 13, 2011, 01:14:58 AM
Actually, I'd argue it looks better. The basketball schools are united and are going to force the football schools to either commit for the long term, or go to another conference. They don't want the conference to get unsettled by football BS again.
Frankly, I agree with them, even if it means we lose some good basketball schools.
One exceptions is that Villanova should probably be more flexible about Temple *if* the football schools commit for the long term.
That's exactly the way I took it as well. Glad to see some spunk from the BB schools. I do not want this to continue to be a drumbeat year in, year out. It is somewhat reassuring the see the BB schools being aggressive and assertive.
Quote from: Aughnanure on October 13, 2011, 12:41:43 AM
From the article: "If the Big East can't make it through its latest crisis, the reason for its demise will be simple: Too many people are pulling in too many directions at the foundering league at a time when a selfless, united front is the conference's only chance at survival."
Translation: "the basketball schools need to jump on a grenade to save the conference for the football schools, even if that means they're only going to get screwed down the road."
The fundamental question here is: what conference do we want to survive? A mediocre football conference where Marquette and the other basketball only schools are second class citizens (under the
best case scenario), or a respectable basketball conference. I know my preference. I've come to grips with the fact that when this all shakes out, Marquette is going to be playing in a high level mid-major conference. I think that this is inevitable. My first preference would be that it's a mid-major called the Big East that focuses on basketball. I think my second preference would be that it be another conference that focuses on basketball. I think my third preference is that it would be the Big East that takes in a bunch of mediocre football programs and is constantly at risk of imploding as the football schools bolt for greener pastures. My preference for the first of these is firm. I go back and forth on which of the other two I prefer.
The basketball schools need to stick together here. If it destroys the Big East as we know it, I'm cool with that.
Viva le resistance!
Quote from: StillAWarrior on October 13, 2011, 10:42:10 AM
Translation: "the basketball schools need to jump on a grenade to save the conference for the football schools, even if that means they're only going to get screwed down the road."
Well said Still a Warrior. They want the Basketball schools to jump on the granade to save the conference.... while they won't commit to us and while they "secretly" look at joing the enemy. The UConn President really has been looking like someone who exemplifies the Peter Principal.
The football schools are the problem and at least the basketball schools see it for what it is... and appear unified. Great news. We either have a more solid conference with football schools. Or create a solid basketball conference. Either is better than a conference that ends up with basketball schools and ECU, UCF, etc in 5 years (and no UConn, UL).