Hey folks,
Well, it looks like the Big East is planning on staying together and adding a couple members to replace Pitt and Syracuse for football. At least that's the story today.
That said, here's the results of the poll I put up a couple nights ago to see who people would prefer to form a conference with if MU had to go to a basketball-only, 12 member conference. I don't think the results are that surprising - see below.
1. St. John's (124 votes)
2. Villanova (123)
3. Providence (123)
4. Xavier (123)
5. Seton Hall (119)
6. Georgetown (117)
7. DePaul (117)
8. Butler (106)
9. Notre Dame (102)
10. Dayton (77)
11. St. Louis (43)
Georgetown would have been higher but I inadvertently left them off the list for about the first 10 minutes I had the poll up.
God I hope that if we go this way we end up with a 10 team conference (down to #9 on this list). UD and SLU are the definition of mid-majors
Mid majors are defined by the conference they are in, not by the quality of their program. If Michigan State didn't join the Big 10, it could be now the equivalent of Grand Valley St. Many times, the conference makes the program (and the overall school reputation). I say let programs like Dayton, SLU, etc in as long as they agree to spend money on their program. I am firmly in the camp of the basketball only conference, especially if we could retain the Big East conference name and intellectual capital (records, etc), and we get a decent deal on ESPN....which I expect.
I we end up down that path, I don't think ND sticks around. Stick with 10 and flip a coin between Dayton and SLU for the last spot.
Good discussion on here. As a Creighton fan, a little disappointed they didn't get a little more love from you guys.
Understand why, but as a basketball program the last 15 years Creighton is a lot better than most of the schools you guys want to stay with. SLU, Providence, St Johns, Seton Hall, Depaul for sure. Sure SJU, Seton Hall, Depaul and Providence have new coaches ,and could be on the up...but besides Nova, ND, and Georgetown I personally don't see what these other BE schools do for a "new conference" including MU.
Most CU fans understand we are probably on the outside looking in if a new Catholic or Private school conference forms with an Eastern base, but still feel we have a lot of offer including a top 15 attendence fan base in a great arena.
Quote from: JayFan on September 21, 2011, 11:03:29 AM
Good discussion on here. As a Creighton fan, a little disappointed they didn't get a little more love from you guys.
Understand why, but as a basketball program the last 15 years Creighton is a lot better than most of the schools you guys want to stay with. SLU, Providence, St Johns, Seton Hall, Depaul for sure. Sure SJU, Seton Hall, Depaul and Providence have new coaches ,and could be on the up...but besides Nova, ND, and Georgetown I personally don't see what these other BE schools do for a "new conference" including MU.
Most CU fans understand we are probably on the outside looking in if a new Catholic or Private school conference forms with an Eastern base, but still feel we have a lot of offer including a top 15 attendence fan base in a great arena.
TV markets, for one. Nothing against Omaha, but you can't begin to compare it to what St. John's, DePaul, and Providence would bring in that regard (or 'Nova, ND, and G'Town), and there's also the automatic bid. For a conference to qualify for an automatic bid to the NCAAs, it must have seven teams that have been together for eight years. If you want to try to compare Creighton, don't bother mentioning current Big East teams.
Argue your merit against St. Louis, Dayton, Xavier, and Butler. Just bear in mind that even Dayton has a bigger market and all of them are a better geographic fit. I could see Creighton in a 16-team conference (my personal preference) but I still see them as a fringe team even in that setup. Nothing personal, just my thoughts after evaluating what's out there.
If all hell breaks loose I don't think the NCAA will be able o hold the "7 teams to 8 years" rule.
TV sets hurt CU for sure in terms of television contracts. Not arguing that. Guess my point is if(big if) a new Catholic/Private bball conference forms it may be more beneficial to try, and get the best "bball programs" together in an attempt to compete with the new "super conferences" basketball wise. CU measures up against some of those schools.
JMO, but MU, GT, NOVA, SJU might be better served distancing themsevles from programs like Seton Hall or Providence...and hooking up with better bball programs like Butler or Xavier. Need the best bball programs you can get. Losing Syracuse, Pitt, and possibly Uconn from your conference is huge.
Not trying to argue. Enjoyed checking out the board. Always root for MU ,and other Jesuit schools. Have lots of friends that are MU alums. Good luck with all this chaos. We will be fine staying in the Valley, but the alums/fans have always wanted to pair up with MU/Depaul and other midwest catholic schools in a conference for many many years. Still dreaming about it happening.
Quote from: JayFan on September 21, 2011, 11:03:29 AM
Good discussion on here. As a Creighton fan, a little disappointed they didn't get a little more love from you guys.
Understand why, but as a basketball program the last 15 years Creighton is a lot better than most of the schools you guys want to stay with. SLU, Providence, St Johns, Seton Hall, Depaul for sure. Sure SJU, Seton Hall, Depaul and Providence have new coaches ,and could be on the up...but besides Nova, ND, and Georgetown I personally don't see what these other BE schools do for a "new conference" including MU.
Most CU fans understand we are probably on the outside looking in if a new Catholic or Private school conference forms with an Eastern base, but still feel we have a lot of offer including a top 15 attendence fan base in a great arena.
Thanks for the input Jay Fan. Just so you know, Creighton came in just behind St. Louis with 41 votes. St. Louis probably received more votes because MU was once a member of the Great Midwest conference with them back in the day and people are used to them.
If Gonzaga and st. mary's would just move their campus a few thousand miles east
Or, even better (and likely more satisfying to JayFan), the 16-team winner of BYOC:
Quote from: Norm on September 21, 2011, 08:26:39 AM1. St. John's (124 votes)
2. Villanova (123)
3. Providence (123)
4. Xavier (123)
5. Seton Hall (119)
6. Georgetown (117)
7. DePaul (117)
8. Butler (106)
9. Notre Dame (102)
10. Dayton (77)
11. St. Louis (43)
12. Creighton (41)
13. UMass (33)
14. St. Joseph's (29)
15. Richmond (22)
Also adds the Omaha, Boston, and Richmond markets while solidifying Philly.
Everyone keeps beating up on Depaul, Providence and Seton Hall for being dead programs. I think with as tough as the Big East has been, it was even tougher to turn around a program in this environment. Put those teams in a 10 team league and they have better chance to compete. DePaul could turn around in a hurry with one winning season. Chicago recruits would want to got there again. Big markets and recruiting hotbeds.
Quote from: JayFan on September 21, 2011, 11:03:29 AM
Good discussion on here. As a Creighton fan, a little disappointed they didn't get a little more love from you guys.
Understand why, but as a basketball program the last 15 years Creighton is a lot better than most of the schools you guys want to stay with. SLU, Providence, St Johns, Seton Hall, Depaul for sure. Sure SJU, Seton Hall, Depaul and Providence have new coaches ,and could be on the up...but besides Nova, ND, and Georgetown I personally don't see what these other BE schools do for a "new conference" including MU.
Most CU fans understand we are probably on the outside looking in if a new Catholic or Private school conference forms with an Eastern base, but still feel we have a lot of offer including a top 15 attendence fan base in a great arena.
I like Creighton a lot (Im from KC), but its best chance is a 16 team-league. It did get only 2 votes less than SLU though, so it still will be a main target if the league goes bigger than 12. I also like it because it expands the league's footprint outside of the Virginia/DC/Penn/NEast region (instead of the VCU, RI, Richmond, GMason group some try to throw out) and allows Marquette to not be the western-most member. It also adds a very good baseball program (yes, this league will actually have to play the other sports) and has a very loyal fanbase.
That said, I agree with Brew City - Its sitting behind Xavier, Butler, SLU & probably Dayton.
Quote from: KipsBayEagle on September 21, 2011, 01:13:56 PM
If Gonzaga and st. mary's would just move their campus a few thousand miles east
I could care less about St. Mary's, but Gonzaga would be very nice...in theory.
Quote from: Freeway on September 21, 2011, 02:17:15 PM
Everyone keeps beating up on Depaul, Providence and Seton Hall for being dead programs. I think with as tough as the Big East has been, it was even tougher to turn around a program in this environment. Put those teams in a 10 team league and they have better chance to compete. DePaul could turn around in a hurry with one winning season. Chicago recruits would want to got there again. Big markets and recruiting hotbeds.
In a smaller league, I think it'd be much harder. I just can't see any 10-team league sustaining a 50% rate of putting teams in the tourney. I think saying they'd average 3.5 is probably generous. But a 16-team league that included St. John's, Georgetown, Villanova, Notre Dame, Butler, Xavier, Richmond, Marquette...you'd have a good chance of averaging 6.5+ teams a year. If I were DePaul, I'd much rather that because it's easier to crack the top half than it is the top 3.
Quote from: JayFan on September 21, 2011, 11:52:09 AM
If all hell breaks loose I don't think the NCAA will be able o hold the "7 teams to 8 years" rule.
TV sets hurt CU for sure in terms of television contracts. Not arguing that. Guess my point is if(big if) a new Catholic/Private bball conference forms it may be more beneficial to try, and get the best "bball programs" together in an attempt to compete with the new "super conferences" basketball wise. CU measures up against some of those schools.
JMO, but MU, GT, NOVA, SJU might be better served distancing themsevles from programs like Seton Hall or Providence...and hooking up with better bball programs like Butler or Xavier. Need the best bball programs you can get. Losing Syracuse, Pitt, and possibly Uconn from your conference is huge.
Not trying to argue. Enjoyed checking out the board. Always root for MU ,and other Jesuit schools. Have lots of friends that are MU alums. Good luck with all this chaos. We will be fine staying in the Valley, but the alums/fans have always wanted to pair up with MU/Depaul and other midwest catholic schools in a conference for many many years. Still dreaming about it happening.
The best thing about the Seton Halls, Providences, DePaul, etc is that they have proven their commitment to athletics over time with the money they spend on their programs. Not saying they won't have to spend more, but getting a program that can and has proven they are financially committed is a very big deal for this new theoretical conference.
I would love the Blue Jays! They draw 15,000 plus and Omaha is a better market than most think.
Creighton Or Dayton? We where in that position at one time or another.
I think Xavier's high placement speaks a lot about the desire of MU fans to hook up with other prominent Midwestern basketball programs.
Keep the standard high, fellow Warriors!
Quote from: brewcity77 on September 21, 2011, 02:23:58 PM
In a smaller league, I think it'd be much harder. I just can't see any 10-team league sustaining a 50% rate of putting teams in the tourney. I think saying they'd average 3.5 is probably generous. But a 16-team league that included St. John's, Georgetown, Villanova, Notre Dame, Butler, Xavier, Richmond, Marquette...you'd have a good chance of averaging 6.5+ teams a year. If I were DePaul, I'd much rather that because it's easier to crack the top half than it is the top 3.
DePaul's first goal should be to get back in the .500 range. Even that would pique the interest of a lot more Chicago recruits and fans. I think it would be easier to make that move in a ten team league versus a 16 team league. With 16 teams, there are too many styles of play to scheme for. If you're a .500 team in a 10 team league, you'd be competing for one of those 3.5 berths each year. At least a lot closer to competing than they have been since joining the Big East.
This may be a stretch, but compare DePaul to the Blackhawks. Rich tradition in a large market, uncompetitive for a long stretch and nearly forgotten in Chicago. Once the Blackhawks turned the corner competitively, people came out of the woodwork. The bandwagon is full again.
Quote from: Freeway on October 07, 2011, 04:56:26 PM
This may be a stretch, but compare DePaul to the Blackhawks. Rich tradition in a large market, uncompetitive for a long stretch and nearly forgotten in Chicago. Once the Blackhawks turned the corner competitively, people came out of the woodwork. The bandwagon is full again.
Big stretch. The Blackhawks were doomed by their owner's mentality. Once old man Wirtz passed, then the Blackhawks turned the corner, success on the ice came a year later.
Quote from: marqptm on October 07, 2011, 07:31:22 PM
Big stretch. The Blackhawks were doomed by their owner's mentality. Once old man Wirtz passed, then the Blackhawks turned the corner, success on the ice came a year later.
What could really help DePaul may be the NBA lockout. The Score's Laurence Holmes has stated that WGN, WCIU and CSN will have deep programming holes without Bulls telecasts, and DePaul could get some games picked up.
Not sure being on TV more helps DePaul... ;D
1. Trying to be a top conference without football will be tough and require that the member schools have a shared identity. I really think that we'd need to limit the schools to "city schools" and recruit primarily from urban areas. ND would be the only school with a high enough profile to qualify as an exception to this rule.
2. It's a shame that Detroit isn't really in the discussion, but that's the fault of the school for allowing the program to stagnate. Recruiting against Michigan and Michigan State must be difficult in the extreme.
3. Maybe Marquette would have enough pull in forming this conference to insist that Green Bay be included as long as Wardle remains the coach.
4. I don't understand the love for Seton Hall. They're not improving, and St. John's gets us the New York market.
5. I believe that St. Louis is a sleeping giant. They've always ranked well in attendance which is important. For a short time--in the eighties, if I remember right--they were out recruiting everyone for the best talent in Missouri, or at least St. Louis, i.e. Anthony Bonner and Larry Hughes.
6. UMass would be a waste of time. They're moving toward (whatever initials they're using for what used to be Division I) football, and wouldn't stay once they got there.
7. I'm sure that Dayton gets a lot of support due to its history as one of the "four independants" with us, DePaul, and ND back in the McGuire days.