http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VfAkbRQ92j0&feature=youtu.be&hd=1
Interesting highlights and just a couple thoughts. I know Davante looks awkward with his shot sometimes but he makes a bunch. Jr. looks very quick, DWilson doesn't. Jamil Wilson looks very smooth and Jake Thomas has sick range.
Junior looks like a stud...I can't even believe that is him on that dunk. Are there more highlight videos coming? This just made my day.
Does Junior ever finish with his left or going to his left? He looks fully healed and quicker, that is for sure. DG is a load, but doesn't look ready to play 20+ a night or to guard a mobile 4. Jake Thomas has the best range since Novak. I guess I have to remember about Pro Am defense, but it sure looked like he was raining them over Junior. I thought DW looked like a young Mateen Cleaves. Like seeing the lefty jump hook out of Otule. Being able to finish either hand down there is a huge benefit. His hands looked better on offensive rebounds. Vander is ridiculously fast, but his jumper still doesn't look smooth. At least he finishes at the hoop with either hand. JW brought his Oregon shoes with him.
Quote from: Lighthouse 84 on July 27, 2011, 11:14:11 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VfAkbRQ92j0&feature=youtu.be&hd=1
Interesting highlights and just a couple thoughts. I know Davante looks awkward with his shot sometimes but he makes a bunch. Jr. looks very quick, DWilson doesn't. Jamil Wilson looks very smooth and Jake Thomas has sick range.
Junior looks quick, because he is clearly the team's leader and has the confidence to push the ball all he wants. D. Wilson has to play second fiddle to Ricky Franklin. There probably is very little difference in their quickness.
Awesome video. Thanks for sharing!
Some thoughts:
Juan - the best is yet to come. Good vision.
Junior - favors his right hand. Gets into the lane at will and with determination. Knows where to release the ball. Nice tear drops in the lane.
Jake - unreal range. Looks like we have our own little Devendorf Zone buster. Little reminiscent of Wardle. Maybe it's the # he's wearing. ;)
Otule - Not as dominating as I want to see him, but more offensive clips the better!
Ox - knows how to use his body, shielding defenders and/or getting in the position to draw fouls. Surprising bounce for the second chance putback. STEAMROLLER with some nice handles.
Wilson - NBA pro stroke. But want to see more all around game. 3 pt clips don't mean much to me.
Vander - NBA athleticism. Work on the shot, dude!!! He does that, he'll be MU's next NBA draft pick...after Jae. ;)
I think to be effective Gardner probbably does not play more than 18 minutes. However, I have been thinking about the difference between the pro am and college basketball. Shots in the pro am come much quicker, which means there is more running up and down the court. I would say the average shot in the pro am goes up within 5 seconds of crossing half court. I would say in college basketball is more likely to average at least 15 seconds and if you are playing the Badgers it is over 20 from when the ball crosses half court. This would seem to allow Gardner more time to recover between trips back and forth. I am not sure if this makes much difference, but I am thrwoing it out there as a thought. There are also time outs in real games.
While I still cringe watching Vander's shot, he and Cadougan do a terrific job of attacking the rim and clearly Gardner looks for contact in the lane...couple that with Jae and DJO's physical, attacking style of play and I think it's a safe assumption that this team will be spending A LOT of time at the free throw line this season.
One of things I like the most about the pro am is that you really get to see the game close up. I really enjoy watching Gardner put moves on the other players. I can see things from the first row of the pro am that I just cannot see clearly at the Bradley Center.
If I can't be in Milwaukee, the youtube videos are the next best thing! THanks!
- Can Junior really not go to his left? Pretty sure that's an easy defensive adjustment...
- I was in the camp of believing Jake Thomas to be just a practice body. But could we actually use him in a zone D situation? He seems like he wouldn't have a problem breaking a 2-3 zone pretty easily
Thanks for letting us see the video of the players! There's a lot of talent out there. Can't wait for the season to start. Have any of the players grown taller from last year?
Jake Thomas will get minutes at MU - book that. Has a very quick release, good catch and shoot mechanics, and range (in my opinion, better than Novaks). So long as Junior/Vander/Derrick Wilson/Jamil Wilson can collapse a defense off the bounce - Thomas could be a great weapon next year...both from a spacing perspective, and ability to shoot the 3.
Vander's best chance to score will be to be very active on the defensive glass/outlet, and get himself in transition. He has plenty of ability to go 1 on 2, even 1 on 3 on the fast break and convert. Shot will be a work in progress, but he'll get that squared away. Think people get way too obsessed with form. Kenny Smith's J looks a lot like Vanders. Shawn Marion has crazy form, Michael Redd slingshots the ball, Larry Bird had an awkward/less than text book release. Jim Furyk has a terrible golf swing - but is effective. Vander will be too so long as he doesn't over-think things..just let the shot fly..
Gardner's feet are just awesome. He takes so many quick steps. And that bring it up the floor and spot up for 3 at about 3:50 made me smile.
Vander is just lightning in a bottle, lets hope he puts it all together.
For those who were there, J Wilson has a nice stroke, but was he slashing or getting in the lane at all? He is so long, it would be nice to have him in the lane a bit. I understand maybe he was more comfortable working on his shot and distributing from the perimeter for Pro-Am purposes.
I realize that defense is nobody's first priority at this event but did any of you happen to notice who was "guarding" the now super-speedy Junior on probably 90%of his highlight clips? Jake Thomas. That may ultimately prove to be what keeps Jake off the floor even though his shot looks unbelievable.
And, it also makes me wonder if Junior has really gotten that much better or if the defense is just so non-existent that he can get to the tin whenever he wants.
The curse of the Pro-Am...what is it that we are really seeing?
Thanks for the highlights.
Junior looks most improved, especially crossover dribbles. What a difference two years makes.
Jake Thomas was hitting threes way past NBA range, very impressive. His coming off the pick and hitting shots at the top of the key off the inbounds play was awesome.
Blue looks the same to me.
Thanks for sharing the vid! Cool to see the guys playing. Junior looks great out there and Jake Thomas surprised me. Definitely looks like he could be in the rotation because of his shooting ability alone.
Quote from: ATL MU Warrior on July 27, 2011, 02:02:31 PM
I realize that defense is nobody's first priority at this event but did any of you happen to notice who was "guarding" the now super-speedy Junior on probably 90%of his highlight clips? Jake Thomas. That may ultimately prove to be what keeps Jake off the floor even though his shot looks unbelievable.
And, it also makes me wonder if Junior has really gotten that much better or if the defense is just so non-existent that he can get to the tin whenever he wants.
The curse of the Pro-Am...what is it that we are really seeing?
I think that is misleading, because that just happen to be the game they were videoing. Cadougan gets down the floor quickly in the pro am and since team defenses are not organized it is hard for one individual to contain him. On the flip side it amazes me how often the opposing team takes the ball to Otule. he gets scored on a lot also. Team defenses are not strong and at this level it is hard to stop a player who is going to take the ball hard to the basket.
Two answers to prior questions. Cadougan got to the basket last year in the pro am, but he did not finish as well as he is now. His freshmen year when he cameback from his injury he could not buy a basket. I think he only scored from free throw line as a freshmen. The first couple of games of last year's pro am, he could barely buy a basket either. However, as the pro am progressed he kept taking to the basket and started scoring. You could see that last season to as early on he was not that effective. Come March he was able to take it to the hole and score. This year he can go to hole and score pretty much when he wants in the pro am. The pro am has been a great benefit to him. Jamil Wilson can do it all. I have not checked the most recent statistics, but he was leading the pro am in dunks. The form on his 3 point shot is perfect. He can handle the ball and his passing is excelant. He also blocks shots. He is not out there to score everytime he gets his hands on the ball, so you will not see that in highlight films. He loves to pass the ball and he makes his teamates better. He also seems to have a great personality and really enjoys himself. I imagine that everyone loves to play with him.
I cannot believe how fortunate we are to have Jamil joining MU and that we will get three years from him. Very, very smart....athletic player... And having a year of Buzz under his belt, he knows the expectations. (the hustle required..."paint touches," etc.) He is going to be enormous for us not just this season, but for the next three seasons. Good for us!
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on July 27, 2011, 05:21:07 PM
I cannot believe how fortunate we are to have Jamil joining MU and that we will get three years from him. Very, very smart....athletic player... And having a year of Buzz under his belt, he knows the expectations. (the hustle required..."paint touches," etc.) He is going to be enormous for us not just this season, but for the next three seasons. Good for us!
If Jamil can develop the work ethic and play with the tenacity of Lazar H, and Jimmy B - his physical gifts seem to be well beyond what those two guys had...and he should be able to fill Jimmy's shoes fairly well (hopefully exceed them even). He's got to develop that lock down defender/junk yard dog mentality...which is something he'll always have to work on - as from all clips, interaction, highlights, interviews, I've seen - he sure seems like a really, really nice/jovial guy. Sometimes those types aren't quite as blood thirsty (though Lazar was about as nice as they come and had a killer instinct.)
Quote from: Ners on July 27, 2011, 01:35:42 PM
Jake Thomas will get minutes at MU - book that. Has a very quick release, good catch and shoot mechanics, and range (in my opinion, better than Novaks)
Let's not get too far ahead of ourselves. Thomas is still a year away from being eligible to step on the court. Let's not forget that many thought Singleton would get minutes and he's not here anymore.
I do think Thomas can be a contributor. His range is incredible, I don't know that his range is better than Novak's after watching him a couple times, but he's the first guy I've seen headed for Marquette since Steve that could hit the shots he can. Thomas looks accurate about 5-6 feet past the NBA line. He's something else to watch. I do think he'll be a significant practice contributor this year; guys like Cadougan, Blue, and Derrick Wilson will become better simply because they have to guard him on a weekly basis.
So will he get minutes in 2012 and beyond? Right now I'd say yes. Thomas plays really hard, but is more than just an effort guy. You can tell he's got a good head for the game, and I certainly think he'll get more time than the average walk-on. But look at the guys he'll be competing with for minutes just based on right now:
Cadougan (in 2012-13), Jamail Jones, Derrick Wilson, Jamil Wilson, Vander Blue, Todd Mayo, Jamal Ferguson, Juan Anderson, TJ Taylor, possibly 2 more recruits (Kris Dunn?)
That's a lot of quality and a lot of depth to break through. I'm not saying Thomas can't do it, but during his two eligible seasons, we are looking at having a talent and depth level above anything I've ever seen while following Marquette.
Quote from: bilsu on July 27, 2011, 03:52:44 PM
I think that is misleading, because that just happen to be the game they were videoing. Cadougan gets down the floor quickly in the pro am and since team defenses are not organized it is hard for one individual to contain him. On the flip side it amazes me how often the opposing team takes the ball to Otule. he gets scored on a lot also. Team defenses are not strong and at this level it is hard to stop a player who is going to take the ball hard to the basket.
Junior looks incredible in that video and I am very excited to see what he can do this year. I have always been high on him and just think the injury/subsequent time off really hampered him so far. He will have a great year this year.
Quote from: ATL MU Warrior on July 27, 2011, 07:00:58 PM
Junior looks incredible in that video and I am very excited to see what he can do this year. I have always been high on him and just think the injury/subsequent time off really hampered him so far. He will have a great year this year.
I didn't see Junior in last year's Pro-Am, but I thought he was the best player on the court at the Halloween scrimmage. Then he struggled before coming on strong late in the year. Think this will be a big year for him.
Junior looks great, popping off the dribble and driving hard to the rack. Gotta love that.
Vander looks like he is finishing more at the rim however, not many highlights...
I got to say Davante's game makes me laugh and I think he adjusts his style dependent upon the competition, environment and situation. BUT. Let the big man eat!! I think he can be a beast down low, he's nimble, extremely difficult to move, got that soft touch and can drop a dime.
Quote from: Boards on July 27, 2011, 08:03:57 PMI got to say Davante's game makes me laugh and I think he adjusts his style dependent upon the competition, environment and situation. BUT. Let the big man eat!! I think he can be a beast down low, he's nimble, extremely difficult to move, got that soft touch and can drop a dime.
The game most of DG's highlights are from was just a pick-up game, not an actual Pro-Am game. It was really fun to watch that performance, it was just pure up-and-down play. He was winded in the first half, but once everyone's pace slowed down in the second, DG was killing it. He had a number of coast-to-coasts. That said, he obviously won't get away with that stuff against Norfolk State, much less Big East competition. I'm glad to see him having fun, but it's the low post work and the extended range that encourage me about his game :)
Quote from: brewcity77 on July 27, 2011, 06:56:18 PM
Let's not get too far ahead of ourselves. Thomas is still a year away from being eligible to step on the court. Let's not forget that many thought Singleton would get minutes and he's not here anymore.
I do think Thomas can be a contributor. His range is incredible, I don't know that his range is better than Novak's after watching him a couple times, but he's the first guy I've seen headed for Marquette since Steve that could hit the shots he can. Thomas looks accurate about 5-6 feet past the NBA line. He's something else to watch. I do think he'll be a significant practice contributor this year; guys like Cadougan, Blue, and Derrick Wilson will become better simply because they have to guard him on a weekly basis.
So will he get minutes in 2012 and beyond? Right now I'd say yes. Thomas plays really hard, but is more than just an effort guy. You can tell he's got a good head for the game, and I certainly think he'll get more time than the average walk-on. But look at the guys he'll be competing with for minutes just based on right now:
Cadougan (in 2012-13), Jamail Jones, Derrick Wilson, Jamil Wilson, Vander Blue, Todd Mayo, Jamal Ferguson, Juan Anderson, TJ Taylor, possibly 2 more recruits (Kris Dunn?)
That's a lot of quality and a lot of depth to break through. I'm not saying Thomas can't do it, but during his two eligible seasons, we are looking at having a talent and depth level above anything I've ever seen while following Marquette.
The way I see it in 2012, Thomas will be competing for minutes at the 2 with: Mayo, TJ Taylor, and Blue. The rest of the guys are PG's or 3's, and Ferguson will be a 1st year freshman.
If you took the label off of Thomas as a walk-on, and instead he came to MU billed like Novak, as a Top 100 recruit - my guess is people would be raving about the kid, and not questioning his ability to contribute in the least. His range is better than Novaks was at MU - we though Steve was a ROUTINELY hitting from 2 ft behind the NBA 3-line in Pro Am. Thomas as ELITE level range/shot from 3 - he's going to get minutes - I'm not saying he's going to be a star - but he gives the switchables and PG AWESOME driving lanes as he spaces the court tremendously.
Definitely agree that the talent assembled for 2012 will be deeper than any we've seen at MU since the days of Al. Buzz can play so many ways in 2012...
Quote from: Ners on July 27, 2011, 08:55:42 PM
If you took the label off of Thomas as a walk-on, and instead he came to MU billed like Novak, as a Top 100 recruit - my guess is people would be raving about the kid, and not questioning his ability to contribute in the least.
No kidding.... That's like saying if Todd Mayo were actually Michael Jordan, he'd be pretty good.
Yet again Ners, you are a getting a little too excited here.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on July 27, 2011, 09:14:14 PM
No kidding.... That's like saying if Todd Mayo were actually Michael Jordan, he'd be pretty good.
Yet again Ners, you are a getting a little too excited here.
We'll see how it plays out....and you can reference my past enthusiasm (and Wes Matthews) for Singleton if you want - but we know Singleton not being at MU anymore had nothing to do with his playing ability. Again, I'm not saying Thomas will be a star - but the kid will get minutes at MU.
As for your Todd Mayo/Jordan analogy - and my Jake Thomas/Steve Novak analogy - don't see there being any similarity. The point simply was that if Thomas were a Top 100 recruit, people would be all over how good he was going to be (based on these ProAm performances), and wouldn't have nearly the skepticism. Heck, many that have gone to ProAM games have actually been able to be objective about things and look beyond the walk on label and say the kid will be a contributor at MU...don't think anybody thinks he's gonna be star.
Unfortunately for the departed Bondsmen, he finally got his wish and we got ourselves a traditional - and ironically I'm bullish on the traditional Jake Thomas.
I've been out there, I've watched Thomas. He has great range, the best I've seen since Novak. I think he will definitely contribute on the practice court. I think it's possible he could get more meaningful minutes than Frozena, honestly, he really should.
The difference is simply when he's joining us. There's an unbelievable glut of talent here and coming in over the next couple years. Blue's defense will get him minutes. Jones will have a two-year edge in terms of on-court experience and is also a long-range sniper. TJ Taylor was a top-100 recruit before getting sidetracked to Paris JC. And we haven't really seen much of Mayo or Ferguson. In addition, there's a very realistic chance that Anderson and Wilson's natural guard skills will have them playing more of point forward roles or even one of them playing the 2 when they are on the floor together.
Thomas could get time, I'm just saying don't count your chickens. There is a huge glut of competition at the 2-3 position that he will likely be projecting at. Honestly, his best chances might be playing the 1 (which he has done with some success at the MPA) since Derrick plays like a combo guard and we don't yet have another dedicated 1 signed for 2012 (come on, Kris Dunn!).
He'll get a chance, but I'm sure Buzz has made it clear to Thomas that he's guaranteed nothing.
Quote from: Ners on July 27, 2011, 10:12:30 PM
As for your Todd Mayo/Jordan analogy - and my Jake Thomas/Steve Novak analogy - don't see there being any similarity. The point simply was that if Thomas were a Top 100 recruit, people would be all over how good he was going to be (based on these ProAm performances),
But he's not a top 100 recruit...just like Todd Mayo isn't Michael Jordan.
What, we are just supposed to forget his previous two years???
Quote from: Ners on July 27, 2011, 10:12:30 PM
The point simply was that if Thomas were a Top 100 recruit, people would be all over how good he was going to be (based on these ProAm performances), and wouldn't have nearly the skepticism.
That's a bold statement.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on July 27, 2011, 07:57:14 PM
I didn't see Junior in last year's Pro-Am, but I thought he was the best player on the court at the Halloween scrimmage. Then he struggled before coming on strong late in the year. Think this will be a big year for him.
I thought the same thing, Lenny. The way he got by AND attacked the hoop while keeping a smaller/quicker Reggie Smith on his hip got me very excited for his "sophomore" year.
It was good to see him come on strong towards the end of the year - and in big spots (Syracuse drive/score). I do think that he is a MUCH different player playing against a smaller defender - as he uses his body well. But this year, he looks to have that next gear to really get by A LOT of BEast defenders - while hopefully keeping his strength and ability to finish (sometimes pretty crafty) around the hoop. And...if his jump shot keeps improving...look out!!**
(Not saying JR is going to be hitting 40% from deep...but a pass first PG who you HAVE to at least keep an eye on outside the 3pt arc can be headaches for team defenses)
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on July 28, 2011, 06:00:52 AM
But he's not a top 100 recruit...just like Todd Mayo isn't Michael Jordan.
What, we are just supposed to forget his previous two years???
I see your point - mine is simply that judging a player based on their ranking or label, such as "walk on," leads to preconceived notions of the player's caliber. Perhaps rightly so, but not always accurate. Think we all can agree Devante Gardner, the lowest rated freshman recruit made a bigger impact on the team last year than his 5-star and 4-star classmates. Thomas put up 13 points (as I recall against MU)...last year. His range/shooting are of an elite variety...that will earn him some minutes at MU. Again, not saying the kid is going to be a star...
Quote from: Ners on July 28, 2011, 08:18:20 AMI see your point - mine is simply that judging a player based on their ranking or label, such as "walk on," leads to preconceived notions of the player's caliber. Perhaps rightly so, but not always accurate. Think we all can agree Devante Gardner, the lowest rated freshman recruit made a bigger impact on the team last year than his 5-star and 4-star classmates. Thomas put up 13 points (as I recall against MU)...last year. His range/shooting are of an elite variety...that will earn him some minutes at MU. Again, not saying the kid is going to be a star...
No way would I agree with that. Vander Blue had a much bigger impact on the team than Gardner. Much, much bigger. Vander played in all 37 games, getting 19 mpg, providing quality defense, and even scoring more than DG (5.1 to 4.6 ppg). Granted, Gardner was more efficient scoring, but he missed 4 games and many of the games he played in were just getting some garbage time minutes (10 games with 5 minutes or less). Vander may not have delivered the 10 ppg everyone was hoping for out of a 5-star recruit, but he was our biggest impact freshman last year.
And while I understand where you're coming from, and I recognize that Buzz has done a good job of finding guys outside the top 100 rankings, Thomas isn't the only potential underrated guy. Maybe he's overlooked, but what if Mayo and Taylor are just as precocious relative to their rankings? Either way, we have a glut of options, and I think that's a good problem.
Quote from: brewcity77 on July 28, 2011, 01:54:19 PM
No way would I agree with that. Vander Blue had a much bigger impact on the team than Gardner. Much, much bigger. Vander played in all 37 games, getting 19 mpg, providing quality defense, and even scoring more than DG (5.1 to 4.6 ppg). Granted, Gardner was more efficient scoring, but he missed 4 games and many of the games he played in were just getting some garbage time minutes (10 games with 5 minutes or less). Vander may not have delivered the 10 ppg everyone was hoping for out of a 5-star recruit, but he was our biggest impact freshman last year.
And while I understand where you're coming from, and I recognize that Buzz has done a good job of finding guys outside the top 100 rankings, Thomas isn't the only potential underrated guy. Maybe he's overlooked, but what if Mayo and Taylor are just as precocious relative to their rankings? Either way, we have a glut of options, and I think that's a good problem.
I would propose if you looked at +/- differential for Blue vs. Gardner, we'd find that Gardner's net impact was more + than - compared to Blue's. Vander did provide some solid D that is hard to quantify, but even still, some of that might be beared out in a +/- analysis. Wish I knew of a good site to go to, to be able to find the +/- stat by player - felt at some point someone here had such a site.
I personally didn't have qualms with Blue's performance, and didn't have sky high expectations for him even though he was a 5-star recruit. He's very young for his class, and going from Wisconsin HS Ball to Big East is a huge jump.
Definitely agree that we will have a glut of options in the backcourt in 2012-2013.
+/- is sometimes deceptive, however. Just take the UNC game into account. I'm sure DG had a great +/-, but by that time Carolina simply didn't care. Regardless of the +/-, Blue played far more, and far more important, minutes for us than Gardner did. I like both of their futures, but in terms of the 2010-11 season, Blue was the bigger contributor.
Quote from: brewcity77 on July 28, 2011, 02:21:56 PM
+/- is sometimes deceptive, however. Just take the UNC game into account. I'm sure DG had a great +/-, but by that time Carolina simply didn't care. Regardless of the +/-, Blue played far more, and far more important, minutes for us than Gardner did. I like both of their futures, but in terms of the 2010-11 season, Blue was the bigger contributor.
I do not care what the actual numbers were, you will never convince me that Blue had a better impact than Gardner. First of all, Blue's production is easier for MU to replace than Gardner's. Second of all the statistics will not show how many bad shots Blue took when the team was on a rally.
How can someone have more impact if they play in 10 less minutes per game and scores less? And frankly wasn't a defensive liability like DG was at times? I just watched the Syracuse game from the tournament, and Gardner didn't even see the floor in the second half because his defense was so poor.
I think the problem that you guys are facing is the Blue didn't meet everyone's expectations and was viewed as a disappointment, while Gardner exceeded expectations. But Blue clearly had a bigger positive impact on last year's team than Gardner. And frankly I don't even think it's close.
Quote from: bilsu on July 28, 2011, 04:02:50 PM
I do not care what the actual numbers were, you will never convince me that Blue had a better impact than Gardner. First of all, Blue's production is easier for MU to replace than Gardner's. Second of all the statistics will not show how many bad shots Blue took when the team was on a rally.
Are you effing kidding me.
Blue actually played defense. Gardner just got blown by or fouled guys.
Blue played 19.0 minutes per game... Gardner 9.0
Blue is ahead of Gardner in EVERY statistical category!
Was his offense lacking for most of the season? Yes.
Were there games when DG looked hard to stop? Yes.
But we are talking about the whole season, not a couple of great performances.
If you really think that Gardner had the bigger impact, you are crazy.
Quote from: bilsu on July 28, 2011, 04:02:50 PM
I do not care what the actual numbers were, you will never convince me that Blue had a better impact than Gardner. First of all, Blue's production is easier for MU to replace than Gardner's. Second of all the statistics will not show how many bad shots Blue took when the team was on a rally.
Never said better. I said bigger. Blue was a far more impactful player as a freshman, for better or worse. DG may have scored more points in fewer minutes, but Blue had a lot more to do with our fortunes over the course of the season than DG did.
Blue was much better defensively. Gardner was much better offensively, outshooting Blue from the field (57.6% to 39.4%) and the line (75.4% to 60.8%). Both had weaknesses, but Vander scared me more - maybe because I had higher expectations for him.
Think its time for a poll....coming up boys..
Note how the poll includes "more positive" impact, which was never part of the original discussion. You're trying to slant this argument like Chicos. My, how the wheel has turned...
Quote from: brewcity77 on July 28, 2011, 07:21:15 PM
Note how the poll includes "more positive" impact, which was never part of the original discussion. You're trying to slant this argument like Chicos. My, how the wheel has turned...
Interesting that you and Ners each have 2545 posts...maybe Ners could start a poll as to who will post more by the end of the year.
Quote from: brewcity77 on July 28, 2011, 07:21:15 PM
Note how the poll includes "more positive" impact, which was never part of the original discussion. You're trying to slant this argument like Chicos. My, how the wheel has turned...
I don't think it matters either way. Blue had a more positive impact. The game is played on both ends of the floor, and Blue was by far the better defender. That is what cost Gardner minutes during the season.
Quote from: brewcity77 on July 28, 2011, 07:21:15 PM
Note how the poll includes "more positive" impact, which was never part of the original discussion. You're trying to slant this argument like Chicos. My, how the wheel has turned...
Really Brew?? Chill out - you are flying off the handle on this debate, and that isn't usually like you. Talk about splitting hairs - think I'd write a poll that said; Which player made a bigger, negative impact - Vander Blue or Davante Gardner?? I think everyone in this thread felt by "impact" we were discussing the positive attributes both Blue and Gardner brought to the team.
Wasn't trying to slant anything...seems it is a very reasonable topic to debate...given the poll results and stat sheet.
Quote from: Ners on July 28, 2011, 10:07:58 PM
Really Brew?? Chill out - you are flying off the handle on this debate, and that isn't usually like you. Talk about splitting hairs - think I'd write a poll that said; Which player made a bigger, negative impact - Vander Blue or Davante Gardner?? I think everyone in this thread felt by "impact" we were discussing the positive attributes both Blue and Gardner brought to the team.
Wasn't trying to slant anything...seems it is a very reasonable topic to debate...given the poll results and stat sheet.
I'm just sick of everyone minimizing Blue's role on last year's team. The guy comes in as a freshman on a team where the starting spots were pretty well all locked down, save for maybe the second forward role that went to Jae (and Blue was never in contention for). So he becomes our sixth man, getting 19 mpg off the bench, giving us excellent defense, and filling in at 3 positions, and he's roundly lambasted as a failure.
Yes, his offense underwhelmed and his shot clearly needs work, but there were really four tiers of players in terms of impact last year:
Star Players: Jimmy Butler, DJO, Jae Crowder
These guys carried the load most nights, and our wins or losses were usually based upon their play.Major Contributors: Dwight Buycks, Chris Otule, Junior Cadougan, Vander Blue
These guys were either starters or first-off-the-bench type guys that got major minutes and had an impact in virtually every game.Back-ups: Davante Gardner, Joe Fulce, Erik Williams
These guys had moments of brilliance, but rarely had significant impacts on the actual flow of the game. They simply didn't get in enough games or get enough minutes when they did to really be major contributors.The Other Guys: Jamail Jones, Reggie Smith, Rob Frozena
Either weren't here long enough or just didn't play enough to have any real impact. Had they not been on the team, or were they replaced with guys off the street, it wouldn't have made much difference.Blue gets minimized constantly because he wasn't honorable mention all-Big East, or because people don't like his shot, or because he started on the U-18 team and not here, or whatever. Listen, I'll be the first to acknowledge how DG has clearly worked hard to trim down so he can make more of an impact next year. He needed to get in better shape to get more minutes to be a more important player on this team. But that's just one more testament as to why Blue was more impactful last year. Because he was in shape, because he was getting minutes.
Listen, it's easy to hold up the Duke game (DG's best performance) and the UNC game (which makes no sense, he played garbage time), but what else does he have on the resume? 17 points against Prairie View? His (admittedly huge) role in the Bucknell comeback? Those were the first two games of the season. What does he have after that? 12 points in 10 minutes against Georgetown? Great...he also fouled out. In fact, once you get past his 48 points in 53 minutes in the first five games, his contributions really went down.
His scoring drops to 3.7 ppg over his final 28 appearances, his scoring/minute goes from 0.51 to 0.43. How much of his season was built off those first five games? Meanwhile, Vander kept on chugging, earning major minutes and major criticism. All the while, willie warrior is elevating Davante to cult hero status, and suddenly Ners has jumped on the willie warrior bandwagon.
There's a reason guys like Otule and Blue get more minutes than Gardner. Actually, two reasons. Conditioning and defense. I'm really glad Gardner has improved the first. Now I just hope he can improve the second so that in 2011-12 and beyond he can have a bigger impact. But the past is the past, and no amount of finagling will change that Gardner's impact in 2010-11 simply doesn't rival guys like Otule, Blue, Buycks, or Cadougan. He simply didn't play enough.