MUScoop

Top 10 MU overachievers in the pros, and vice versa

Written by: jpudner@concentricgrasstops.com (bamamarquettefan1)

Thanks to houwarrior for presenting a great question on MUScoop of who had the best MU college careers vs. pro careers.  I wanted to systematically try to answer his question, as well as the reverse - who came out of nowhere to overachieve in the NBA.

One point I try to always drill home is that there are 4500 Division I players every year and thousands more in Europe and only about 50 of them make it to the NBA every year.  So there are thousands of great college players who don't make the pros, and even most who do don't average double figures.  In fact, Dwyane Wade and Wesley Matthews are two of only seven MU players to ever average double figures in the NBA, so even making it and playing over 400 games as a defensive specialist who doesn't score much (see Tony Smith and Jim McIlvaine) puts you in very select company.

I ranked the top 40 pro careers of MU players - mostly NBA but then added a few strong European/D-League players at the end of the rankings, and then compared those 40 pro careers to how I ranked the same 40 players for their MU careers.  

MU players who were even better in the pros

If Jimmy Butler lives up to the Bulls expectations and is even still playing in five years, he will be the greatest pro surprise in MU history.  Obviously I am somewhat guessing on Lazar Hayward and Jimmy's potential careers, conservatively just projected they play a few years each on the bench that would still put them in the top 20 of all MU pro careers, but even with that conservative approach, Butler would rank as one of the top surprises with just the 33rd best career among the MU pros.


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RnkPro RankMU RankFirstLastComments[/tr]

1	16	35	Chris	Crawford	1663 pts in injury shortened career
2	12	30	Steve	Novak	one of longest pro careers
3	5	21	Glen (Doc)	Rivers	864 games most, 1 of 7 to ave. double figures
4	19	33	Jimmy	Butler	If he plays at least 5 years will rank #1 on this list
5	24	34	Amal	McCaskill	114 NBA games
6	29	39	Tom	Copa	surprise late emergence for 33 NBA games
7	4	12	Wesley	Matthews	biggest surprise to non-MU fans
8	11	19	Jim	McIlvaine	1 of 10 to log 400 NBA games, def specialist
9	9	16	Tony	Smith	same as McIlvaine
10	8	14	Jerome	Whitehead	697 games ranks 4th

So overall I rank Jimmy with a slightly better MU career than Chris Crawford (33rd of the 40 for Jimmy compared to 35th for Crawford).  As good as Crawford was for MU, right now I have him as the biggest overachiever in the pros, and if he wasn't sidelined prematurely with back issues, he really may have built a nice career with a few thousand points.

Wesley Matthews is the best player on this list, and should eventually nudge out Doc Rivers as the 4th best pro to come out of MU, but he was pretty darn great at Marquette so he is not as much an overachiever based on his MU career.

MU players who were better in college than the pros

I do believe Jerel McNeal is the player with the biggest gap in the other direction - one of the top 10 college players in the country according to the AP (2nd team All-American), but so far hasn't been on the court for an NBA game.  But I hope he is remembered long-term like Bo Ellis is, he did wonders at MU even if his NBA career is short or he doesn't make it at all, but hopefully he repeats a Tom Copa and keeps at it until he breaks through.


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RnkPro RankMU RankFirst nameLastComments[/tr]

1	36	9	Jerel	McNeal	10 games on NBA bench, so let's hope
2	25	3	Alfred (Butch)	Lee	Just 96 games after POY at MU
3	20	2	Maurice (Bo)	Ellis	Just 168 games after AA career
4	39	22	Dominic	James	Nice numbers in Turkey
5	21	11	Terry	Rand	drafted by Lakers, but outbid by Industrial League
6	22	13	Dave	Quabius	played for NBA team before league formed
7	31	23	Bernard	Toone	23 NBA games
8	10	5	Dean	Meminger	416 games solid
9	30	25	Michael	Wilson	32 NBA games
10	37	32	Tony	Miller	dominant Euro player for 12 years

Tony Miller and Kerry Trottier were two of the most dominant European players, but I rank the European standouts behind anyone who played any games in the NBA.

I believe the best 10 MU players to never play in the NBA (though I could have missed a great Euro career for any of these), were (in order); Gary Brell, Aaron Hutchins, Walt Mangham, Ric Cobb, Ron Curry, Marcus Washington, Brian Wardle, Damon Key, Russ Wittberger and Robert Jackson.

20 of the 40 were about the same in the NBA

But really, 20 of the 40 players ranked within a few spots of their MU perforamce based on their pro careers.  Dwyane Wade was the best MU player and is the best pro player to come out of MU, etc.


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Pro RankMU RankFirst nameLastComments[/tr]

1	1	Dwyane	Wade	the best at MU & in NBA
2	7	Maurice	Lucas	grabbed NBA title, just behind Rivers in games
3	4	George	Thompson	18.6 ppg 2nd to Wade if count ABA
6	8	Don	Kojis	NBA All-Star, 3rd in games
7	6	Jim	Chones	623 games, solid though not star
13	10	Earl	Tatum	9.6 ppg is 11th best
14	18	Travis	Diener	Solid few years
15	17	Larry	McNeil	297 games, 8.5 ppg solid
17	20	Lloyd	Walton	341 games
18	15	Lazar	Hayward	just signed for 3rd year
23	24	Ed	Mullen	5 yrs pro before NBA
26	26	Bob	Lackey	5.8 ppg
27	27	Sam	Worthen	1st round, but just 69 games
28	28	Joe	Thomas	39 games
32	29	Gene	Berce	one of 1st NBA players
33	38	Brian	Brunkhorst	scored a few NBA points
34	31	Allie	McGuire	got in a couple of games
35	40	Bill	Downey	got in a couple of games
38	37	Kerry	Trotter	ave. 30+ per game as European MVP twice
40	36	Cordell	Henry	strong Euro player

So really overall players have been about as good as would be expected overall.  Sure, some great college players skills translate better to the pros than others (Wesley and Jimmy have NBA bodies, while Jerel is short for a 2 and Dominic may not be long enough), but let's remember all these guys for the memories they gave us on the court in Milwaukee or the pride they brought to us when being announced, "from Marquette University ..." before NBA games.

http://www.crackedsidewalks.com/2011/07/top-10-mu-overachievers-in-pros-and.html

Thanks for the detailed work, and results. It brought empirical light to the names we all guessed at in the other thread. Most folks guessed at many of the right names. Its very interesting to see JB may be the no 1 or 2 in lesser MU career, but with success in the pros--lets hope, anyway. Thanks again for the fine work.

Interesting as always bama, but a little simplistic IMHO. It's true that Wade is the #1 player in both college and pro. For you that equates to being the quintessential "fair valued" achiever. But your ratings don't take into account that his college career is only slightly more storied than several other MU stars while his professional one is light years ahead/above any other former warrior. Given that, I'd put DWade on MU's 1st team "overachievers" in the NBA.

Thanks both, for starting a great discussion (houwarrior), and for posing a very good theory on Wade as overachiever (Lennys Tap).  Perhaps another way to make your point is to say that while Wade was the #1 pro and #1 college player, an objective rating says that if Wade's career ended today he would go down as the 24th best player in the history of the NBA:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/friv/ratings.cgi

He may be top 15 all-time in the NBA and yet her clearly is not one of the top 100 college players of all time:

http://www.americasbestonline.net/Cbasketball.htm

so yes, I believe you can argue that the gap between his pro and college performance is actually greater than any of the top 10 I list.

By the same token, that link rates Butch Lee as the 48th greatest college player of all time, which would move him to the top of the "better in college" list ahead of Jerel.  Dean Meminger is the other Warrior on the list as the 86th greatest college player of all time.

I've thought of Dean Meminger in the context of NBA underacheiving. I can remember I thought he'd be next Earl the Pearl Monroe(similar styles)...or the successor in NY, to Walt Frasier. One can argue Ric Cobb, etc., but he was the key player for us back then, capable of taking over streaks. He had a nice NBA run...but I had thought he'd be an NBA all star.
Also I thought Butch Lee would figure out how to have a Calvin Murphy type NBA career, by adding longer outside shooting...just didnt happen. like Jerel, he had max talent and success at college level...just not much more.

I could make the argument that Wade is the biggest over achiever. I knew he was good, but I never thought he would dominate in the pros as he has. He contimues to get better. The greatest under achiever is easy. While some players have not fared well, it has to do with their physical ability. Either size or overall athletic ability. Bernard Toone had the God gifted physical ability. He is easily the greastest under achiever.