It's tough to watch DWade being dragged down by Lebron. With Wade's hip injury, this was Lebron chance to put the team on his shoulders and carry them to victory. He just does not have the will or basketball smarts.
Heat fans HAVE to be sick of him hoisting up 3s late in the game. All he's been doing is dunking in transition... other than that he has been invisible in the last two games.
It's only tough to watch if you actually wanted this "Hey, let's all play together!" idea to work immediately out of the box.
:D
He had a triple-double so it's not as though he was completely invisible. However, what he needs to develop is a post up game. A couple of times he was isolated against Kidd...and he would step back and shoot over him (and miss). He needs to learn how to back a guy down and develop a nice fadeaway like MJ used to.
Quote from: Jam Chowder on June 09, 2011, 11:41:54 PM
Heat fans HAVE to be sick of him hoisting up 3s late in the game. All he's been doing is dunking in transition... other than that he has been invisible in the last two games.
Right on clue here. He missed two open threes late that just killed the Heat, while Jason Terry made his.
I don't know if his bad play will continue, but really he is due to have a big game.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on June 10, 2011, 07:45:07 AM
He had a triple-double so it's not as though he was completely invisible. However, what he needs to develop is a post up game. A couple of times he was isolated against Kidd...and he would step back and shoot over him (and miss). He needs to learn how to back a guy down and develop a nice fadeaway like MJ used to.
+1000 - Saw the exact same thing. D-Wade had the same matchup and several times backed Kidd down and scored - and Bron has about 35 pounds and 5 inches on Wade/Kidd...no reason for James to settle for jumpers from 18 feet, when he could easilty back Kidd down to the block and baby hook, fadeaway J, or power spin and dunk.
I can't even remember 'Bron hitting a 3 this series.
I think all this Rashard Lewis stuff is in his head.
Quote from: Ners on June 10, 2011, 07:57:00 AM
+1000 - Saw the exact same thing. D-Wade had the same matchup and several times backed Kidd down and scored - and Bron has about 35 pounds and 5 inches on Wade/Kidd...no reason for James to settle for jumpers from 18 feet, when he could easilty back Kidd down to the block and baby hook, fadeaway J, or power spin and dunk.
LeBron has gotten to this point by simply being bigger, stronger and more talented than everyone else. He has never actually learned *how* to play basketball. Fans often use him as an example of why players don't need to go to college to be successful NBA players, but if you watch him closely, it's obvious that he still doesn't completely "get it" (I'd put Kobe in that same category, rings and all). He's not great at reading defenses or finding mismatches or truly understanding how to make teammates better and get everyone involved. More times than not, he can take over games because he's simply more talented than everyone else. When he runs into a team that can match his talent to some extent, he has no Plan B.
Don't get me wrong, both LeBron and Kobe will go down as all-time greats, which is well-deserved, but it's frustrating to watch players with all that ability still not getting the most out of it.
I asked Lebron for change for a dollar. He gave me 75 cents and said, "Sorry, I don't have a 4th quarter."
Stolen from Basketbawful
Quote from: Henry Sugar on June 10, 2011, 09:17:38 AM
I asked Lebron for change for a dollar. He gave me 75 cents and said, "Sorry, I don't have a 4th quarter."
Stolen from Basketbawful
I laughed inappropriately loud at work, thanks for that :P
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on June 10, 2011, 08:20:22 AM
LeBron has gotten to this point by simply being bigger, stronger and more talented than everyone else. He has never actually learned *how* to play basketball. Fans often use him as an example of why players don't need to go to college to be successful NBA players, but if you watch him closely, it's obvious that he still doesn't completely "get it" (I'd put Kobe in that same category, rings and all). He's not great at reading defenses or finding mismatches or truly understanding how to make teammates better and get everyone involved. More times than not, he can take over games because he's simply more talented than everyone else. When he runs into a team that can match his talent to some extent, he has no Plan B.
Don't get me wrong, both LeBron and Kobe will go down as all-time greats, which is well-deserved, but it's frustrating to watch players with all that ability still not getting the most out of it.
So basically what you are saying is Lebron needed to play in the Swing with Bo right?
Quote from: Henry Sugar on June 10, 2011, 09:17:38 AM
I asked Lebron for change for a dollar. He gave me 75 cents and said, "Sorry, I don't have a 4th quarter."
Stolen from Basketbawful
In honor of your avatar, I must say...That is LITRALLY the best joke I have ever heard.
Merritts I completely agree with you on this. I think basketball-related adversity helps you develop as a player. Jordan getting cut from his high school team...DWade sitting out as a partial...that stuff makes you a better player. Lebron has had it too easy.
Quote from: JWags85 on June 10, 2011, 09:49:55 AM
So basically what you are saying is Lebron needed to play in the Swing with Bo right?
Exactly! He could have been the next Alando Tucker...except I think Tucker was only a junior when he was LeBron's age, wasn't he?
It still takes 4 wins to capture a NBA title...right?
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on June 10, 2011, 09:53:56 AM
It still takes 4 wins to capture a NBA title...right?
There are still 16 ounces in a pound...right?
(I also wanted to bring up a question that no one had said anything contrary to.)
5 quarts in a gallon, aina?
Bears still poop in forrested areas (and sometimes Soldier Field during the playoffs).
Anyhow, I'm loathe to defend LeBron, but I should point out that without him, Dwyane Wade and the rest of the Heat would have been on summer vacation as of about three weeks ago. They don't get past Boston or Chicago without LeBron.
As for how Heat fans feel ... probably about the same way they felt after #3 flubbed an easy inbounds pass with 6 seconds left Tuesday night.
Miami is probably even money to a slight favorite to win the series right now (if they're 3-1 to win game 6 and 7, they're better than 56% to win it all). But even if they win, the 4th quarter play of Lebron (which has ranged from poor to abysmal) will be a major topic of discussion.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on June 10, 2011, 11:10:34 AM
Miami is probably even money to a slight favorite to win the series right now (if they're 3-1 to win game 6 and 7, they're better than 56% to win it all). But even if they win, the 4th quarter play of Lebron (which has ranged from poor to abysmal) will be a major topic of discussion.
Agree - but as Pakuni pointed out - Without LeBron's performances in the Bulls series - no way the Heat are in the Finals. D-Wade was not very good (and never seems to be against the Bulls), and now Bron isn't playing too well against the Mavs.
LeBron did hit some HUGE shots down the stretch in the Bulls series in many of those games. I actually kind of feel for LeBron, because he is getting taken to the woodshed by the media and many in the basketball community...yet he has brilliant in the Bulls series.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on June 10, 2011, 11:10:34 AM
Miami is probably even money to a slight favorite to win the series right now (if they're 3-1 to win game 6 and 7, they're better than 56% to win it all). But even if they win, the 4th quarter play of Lebron (which has ranged from poor to abysmal) will be a major topic of discussion.
On the radio this morning they pointed out that Jason Terry scored 8 points in the last 3:30 last night, while LeBron has scored 11 points in the fourth quarter the entire series.
Poor form DWade...
http://sports.espn.go.com/dallas/nba/news/story?id=6648286
I guess Dirk responded with a tell me how my ass tastes game.
Because Wade would be in the Finals now without LeBron? I hate Lebron, but they wouldn't have beaten the Bulls without him. I know its partly how Wade plays but his instant injuries get annoying. I've never seen a guy helped off the court as much as he does. Beyond that, Wade has been incredible this series.
I felt like I was watching a Marquette game with the Mavs bombing 3 pointers from anywhere and everywhere. Seemed like (mostly) Miami was playing pretty good defense, but Dallas couldn't miss.
As for LBJ, the number of free throws he's attempted tells you everything you need to know about how aggressive he's been
Hope DWade is at full strength on Sunday.
Quote from: reinko on June 10, 2011, 12:22:35 PM
Poor form DWade...
http://sports.espn.go.com/dallas/nba/news/story?id=6648286
I guess Dirk responded with a tell me how my ass tastes game.
Love DWade and if the Heat win he's unanimous for NBA Finals MVP. That said, don't think it's fair for the guy who rolls around on the ground in agony and whines to the officials more than anyone in the league to criticize Dirk because his coach and teamates mentioned that in addition to a torn tendon he was playing with a 101 degree fever.
Quote from: martyconlonontherun on June 10, 2011, 01:13:55 PM
Because Wade would be in the Finals now without LeBron? I hate Lebron, but they wouldn't have beaten the Bulls without him. I know its partly how Wade plays but his instant injuries get annoying. I've never seen a guy helped off the court as much as he does. Beyond that, Wade has been incredible this series.
We'll never know. The Heat would have used the "LeBron money" to sign other FAs and, for better or worse, would be a completely different team. They might have beaten the Bulls. They might not have.
As it stands, LeBron is on the Heat and he did carry them past the Bulls. However, through the first 5 games of the Finals, he has not played up to the level that we expect from a player of his abilities and with his contract/hype. That said, if he has two big games and the Heat win the title, this will all be an afterthought.
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on June 10, 2011, 10:08:32 AM
There are still 16 ounces in a pound...right?
(I also wanted to bring up a question that no one had said anything contrary to.)
::)
My statement was merely that enough people are on the ledge you would have thought the Mavs were having a parade today....there is also time for LeBron to "redeem" himself as if the first Triple Double in these playoffs is somehow something to sneeze at (no pun intended).
The series isn't over, he can play better...whether he does or not...who knows.
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on June 10, 2011, 02:51:54 PM
We'll never know. The Heat would have used the "LeBron money" to sign other FAs and, for better or worse, would be a completely different team. They might have beaten the Bulls. They might not have. That said, if he has two big games and the Heat win the title, this will all be an afterthought.
Unlikely...there are so many Lebron haters out there that barring him scoring 50 each game and hitting the winning shot in both games, people are going to bag on him no matter what. Dan Lebitard (sp?) had a great story on this very topic this morning. He cannot win no matter what happens. If the Heat win, he loses. If the Mavs win, he loses even more.
I don't agree with Lebitard here. (Nor on pretty much anything.) I like what Bill Simmons says about LBJ here:
http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/6640925/time-lebrondown-part-ii
Here's my opinion in four parts:
a. I think he's one of the greatest athletes who ever lived. I will never forget watching him in person with a full head of steam, blowing through opponents like a Pop Warner running back who's 30 pounds heavier and three seconds faster than everyone else. I am glad he passed through my life. I will tell my grandkids that I saw him play.
b. From game to game, I think the ceiling for his performance surpasses any other basketball player ever except for Wilt and Jordan.
c. As a basketball junkie, I will never totally forgive him for spending his first eight years in the NBA without ever learning a single post-up move. That weapon would make him immortal. He doesn't care. It's maddening.
d. In pressure moments, he comes and goes ... and when it goes, it's gone. He starts throwing hot-potato passes, stops driving to the basket, shies away from open 3s, stands in the corner, hides as much as someone that gifted can hide on a basketball court. It started happening in Game 3, then fully manifested itself in Game 4's stunning collapse, when he wouldn't even consider beating DeShawn Stevenson off the dribble. Afterward, one of my closest basketball friends — someone who has been defending LeBron's ceiling for years — finally threw up his hands and gave up. "It's over," he said. "Jordan never would have done THAT."
Quote from: reinko on June 10, 2011, 12:22:35 PM
Poor form DWade...
http://sports.espn.go.com/dallas/nba/news/story?id=6648286
I guess Dirk responded with a tell me how my ass tastes game.
Was Lebron coughing, or choking?
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on June 10, 2011, 03:10:04 PM
::)
My statement was merely that enough people are on the ledge you would have thought the Mavs were having a parade today....there is also time for LeBron to "redeem" himself as if the first Triple Double in these playoffs is somehow something to sneeze at (no pun intended).
The series isn't over, he can play better...whether he does or not...who knows.
No one even implied otherwise.
The problem with Lebron is that he hasn't decided to be THE guy in Miami when they need him.
He has all the talent in the world, but none of the killer instinct that MJ had.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on June 10, 2011, 03:10:04 PM
::)
My statement was merely that enough people are on the ledge you would have thought the Mavs were having a parade today....there is also time for LeBron to "redeem" himself as if the first Triple Double in these playoffs is somehow something to sneeze at (no pun intended).
Don't know who is "on the ledge" as Miami will be a solid favorite in game 6 and 7 (if necessary). As triple doubles go, Lebron's may have been the most underwhelming in basketball history. Missing everything except layups or dunks, turning the ball over and disappearing or running away at crunch time - pretty much his m.o. for the entire finals.
Quote from: martyconlonontherun on June 10, 2011, 01:13:55 PM
I've never seen a guy helped off the court as much as he does.
Obviously you've never watched the Celtics. Paul Pierce gets wheelchaired to the locker room, comes limping back out to do nothing, and people here act like he's pulling a Willis Reed.
EDIT: By here, I mean Boston and not this site.
LeBron doesn't deserve to be in the conversation with Willis Reed, Kobe, MJ et al. He has the physical skills but not the mental toughness. Until he toughens up and wants the brick in the 4th quarter he will be a footnote when these guys are mentioned.
"The field of success is littered with the bones of he who hesitated"
He hesitates.
Nuff said
As Bill Simmons says, Michael Jordan used to have "Everyone has pissed me off and I'm gonna unleash holy hell" performances.
Lebron doesn't seem to have that in him. When the going gets tough...he passes the ball to Wade.
Mavs obviously realized this as well... They seemed to focus on making Wade's life difficult the past 2 games and said ok Lebron beat us. And what did he do? He deferred to Eddie House of course.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on June 13, 2011, 09:47:54 AM
As Bill Simmons says, Michael Jordan used to have "Everyone has pissed me off and I'm gonna unleash holy hell" performances.
Lebron doesn't seem to have that in him. When the going gets tough...he passes the ball to Wade.
Deep down, LeBron is still just a kid who wants to hang out with his buddies, play some ball and have a good time. He didn't want the pressure of a city expecting him to win a championship for them so he bolted to a place where he hoped to win a ring and just be one of the guys. He obviously miscalculated how fans would view this move and how he'd be perceived. Regardless, at this point, he simply doesn't have the mentality of a champion or as someone who wants to win at all costs. Instead, he just really hopes that things work out for him.
When Lebron has it going (vs Chicago this year for example) he's the best on the planet and in the team photo of the best ever. When he doesn't he runs away. Last night, Nowitzski couldn't hit the broad side of a barn for three quarters and still wanted the ball in the fourth. Lebron was on fire early and passing to Eddie House down the stretch.
Playing through adversity and wanting the ball at the end on the biggest stage are the marks of the true great ones.James isn't there yet.
I'm not the most knowledgeable basketball guy around, but as a Clevelander and a Cavs fan, I'm really tired of the total acceptance of the "Cleveland didn't give LeBron a team that he could win with" story. Putting aside the fact that they won the most games in the league LeBron's last two years in Cleveland, I think the talent level compares favorably (at least) with Dirk's supporting cast.
Last year LeBron had Jamison, Williams, Parker, Ilgauskus, West, Varejao, O'Neal, Hickson, Gibson, Powe and Moon. Is Dirk's supporting cast this year (Barea, Chandler, Haywood, Kidd, Marion, Stephenson, Terry, Stojakovic, Cardinal, Brewer) really that much stronger?
I'm not saying that the Cavs had the best team ever assembled, but I think it's revisionist history when people say that the Cavs didn't give LeBron anything to work with.
Notwithstanding everything, I'm still kind of a LeBron fan because I think he is an amazing talent. I find myself defending him to some of the people around here who hate him now (including my own kids), but as others have said in this thread, he just really doesn't have that killer competitive spirit that Jordan had. He's has amazing talent and is a physical freak of nature, but I'm not sure he's got the drive to carry a bunch of guys to a title like Dirk just did.
Quote from: StillAWarrior on June 13, 2011, 11:06:32 AM
Last year LeBron had Jamison, Williams, Parker, Ilgauskus, West, Varejao, O'Neal, Hickson, Gibson, Powe and Moon. Is Dirk's supporting cast this year (Barea, Chandler, Haywood, Kidd, Marion, Stephenson, Terry, Stojakovic, Cardinal, Brewer) really that much stronger?
Yes. Very much stronger. The Mavs have a HOF point guard (Kidd), a four-time all star (Marion), and a solid defensive center (Chandler). Jamison, Ilguskus and O'Neal best years were clearly behind them. The rest of them are a bunch of scrubs that "lead" the Cavs to one of the worst records in the NBA this year.
Quote from: StillAWarrior on June 13, 2011, 11:06:32 AM
He's has amazing talent and is a physical freak of nature, but I'm not sure he's got the drive to carry a bunch of guys to a title like Dirk just did.
I think this was obvious from the moment he announced he was taking his talents to South Beach.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on June 13, 2011, 11:13:30 AM
Yes. Very much stronger. The Mavs have a HOF point guard (Kidd), a four-time all star (Marion), and a solid defensive center (Chandler). Jamison, Ilguskus and O'Neal best years were clearly behind them. The rest of them are a bunch of scrubs that "lead" the Cavs to one of the worst records in the NBA this year.
Yeah, you're probably right. But this year's Cavs team wasn't the same bunch of scrubs as LBJ had around him last year. First of all, they obviously lost their best player in LBJ, so that in and of itself would cause quite a drop off. They also lost West, Ilgauskus and Williams. Hickson was hurt for half the year.
Like I said, they weren't the greatest squad ever assembled. But, they were good enough to have the best record in the league a couple of times and make it to the finals once. If everyone seems to now accept that LBJ isn't good enough to single handedly carry a team, why are they so quick to totally discount LBJ's teams in Cleveland? LBJ wants to totally blame the Cavs' failures on team management, and not accept any responsibility. I can understand why he wants that to be the story, but I can't really understand why so many people are so willing to accept that.
See, the issue I have is that I think he *is* good enough...at least in terms of physical talent...to lead Miami to the championship. What drives me nuts is that he he doesn't match the physical side with the mental side.
Not to mention his seeming refusal to develop a post-up game that could place him on the Mount Rushmore of basketball.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on June 13, 2011, 11:13:30 AM
Yes. Very much stronger. The Mavs have a HOF point guard (Kidd), a four-time all star (Marion), and a solid defensive center (Chandler). Jamison, Ilguskus and O'Neal best years were clearly behind them. The rest of them are a bunch of scrubs that "lead" the Cavs to one of the worst records in the NBA this year.
I disagree that Dirk's supporting cast is "very much stronger." Kidd is a no-doubt HOFer, but he had career lows in minutes, points, assists, rebounds and FG% this past season and Marion is 4 years removed from his last ASG appearance. In fact, Jamison has been to an ASG more recently.
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on June 13, 2011, 03:08:19 PM
I disagree that Dirk's supporting cast is "very much stronger." Kidd is a no-doubt HOFer, but he had career lows in minutes, points, assists, rebounds and FG% this past season and Marion is 4 years removed from his last ASG appearance. In fact, Jamison has been to an ASG more recently.
Jason Terry & Tyson Chandler are leaps and bounds better than anyone on that Cleveland supporting cast, and I'd take a Kidd/Berea PG combo over a chucker like Mo Williams 100/100 times. And I dislike LeBron. That Cavs supporting cast was terrible.
Quote from: Jamailman on June 13, 2011, 03:19:14 PM
Jason Terry & Tyson Chandler are leaps and bounds better than anyone on that Cleveland supporting cast, and I'd take a Kidd/Berea PG combo over a chucker like Mo Williams 100/100 times. And I dislike LeBron. That Cavs supporting cast was terrible.
+1000 - To me no comparison in talent between the Cleveland teams and what Dallas had. You have multiple, veteran all-stars that all fit together well in Dallas - Kidd, Marion, Terry - add Tyson Chandler and a JJ Barea (who is rapidly evolving into a poor man's Steve Nash)..far more talented than a team with Mo Williams, Varajo and Jamison..
You guys are comparing talent between the worst team in the NBA and the team that won the National Championship. It's very funny if you think about it.
Next can you do UConn vs Chicago State?
Quote from: Skatastrophy on June 13, 2011, 04:01:00 PM
You guys are comparing talent between the worst team in the NBA and the team that won the National Championship. It's very funny if you think about it.
Next can you do UConn vs Chicago State?
No, we're comparing the talent between the team that had the best record in the NBA for two years in a row and this year's champion. The 2010-11 Cavaliers were missing several players from the previous year's team (most notably, LBJ). Take Dirk and two or three other contributors off of the Mavs, and I suspect they'd struggle next year. That certainly doesn't mean that they sucked this year.
Lebron James Sucks! Noticed in the with some 3 minutes left, Dallas in possession, Miami was playing defense and James was standing alone in the corner guarding Nobody. Good talent, no brains, No BB knowledge, no post up game. Didn't want the responsibility in the key points of the game. Quit on the Cavs last year. Also Miami doesn't really have a big man. Bosh is a PF.
Like D-Wade but not an NBA fan. Run by the mafia. Think games are fixed.
Of course you do Earl...
Quote from: Jamailman on June 13, 2011, 03:19:14 PM
Jason Terry & Tyson Chandler are leaps and bounds better than anyone on that Cleveland supporting cast, and I'd take a Kidd/Berea PG combo over a chucker like Mo Williams 100/100 times. And I dislike LeBron. That Cavs supporting cast was terrible.
This is correct.
Do not underestimate JET. The guy has become one of the greatest ever off the bench in NBA history. I understand the sentiment of Dirk, and his great performances early in the series, but Terry was instrumental in Dallas winning three in a row to take the title. He was my MVP.