http://www.draftexpress.com/nba-mock-draft/2011/
Ahead of Shelvin Mack!
Man I hope he makes it! I'm buying a shirzey for sure whatever team he ends up on.
interesting how far they forecast Luerer falling in the draft.
Quote from: augoman on April 14, 2011, 07:34:26 PM
interesting how far they forecast Luerer falling in the draft.
Actually I've seen Leuer in the 2nd round most of the year....ners had him pegged as a first rounder which I think made all of us chuckle.
Nobody's giving guaranteed money to Jereme Richmond. Nobody
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on April 14, 2011, 07:38:08 PM
Actually I've seen Leuer in the 2nd round most of the year....ners had him pegged as a first rounder which I think made all of us chuckle.
Leuer has dropped since the start of the season under Bo. Butler came out of nowhere after another year under Buzz. That makes all of us Marquette fans chuckle.
That would be sweet if the bucks got him.
Leuer was exposed by Matt Howard in the Tourney. He's not tough enough to play any kind of interior role in the NBA.
They have the Bucks taking 20yo and 19yo 7 footers. More projects.
Is Jeremy Tyler the one who quit high school early to go play professionally overseas?
I've been seeing Leuer's name a lot at the end of round 1, mostly going to the Bulls lately. Which I would hate, because I'm a Bulls fan, and frankly, with Noah, Boozer, Asik, Gibson, and even Thomas, I just don't see where Leuer fits in.
I'd love Butler in a Bulls uni, his defense would endear him to Thibodeau, he could back up at the 2 and 3. Though my first pick would be Marshon Brooks, we need a SG that can score a bit, and I think Brooks could develop into a 12-14 ppg guy.
Quote from: Skitch on April 14, 2011, 08:27:50 PM
They have the Bucks taking 20yo and 19yo 7 footers. More projects.
Is Jeremy Tyler the one who quit high school early to go play professionally overseas?
Yes
Quote from: ATL MU Warrior on April 14, 2011, 08:16:29 PM
Leuer was exposed by Matt Howard in the Tourney. He's not tough enough to play any kind of interior role in the NBA.
Novak is a better pure shooter and he's bounced around because he wasn't a power interior player and marginal on the defense. Why would an NBA waste a 1st round pick on Leuer.
Quote from: DaCoach on April 14, 2011, 09:07:20 PM
Novak is a better pure shooter and he's bounced around because he wasn't a power interior player and marginal on the defense. Why would an NBA waste a 1st round pick on Leuer.
They wouldn't...that was my point exactly.
Leuer I guess could be a Steve Novak type player except he's nowhere near the shooter and no NBA team would grade him as such.
I'm not sure what role if any he could play for a team in the NBA...he'd get abused if asked to play inside and he's an average perimeter shooter. He got abused by Howard, who was in turn abused by the UCONN bigs. What does that tell you would happen to him in the NBA, where the big guys are so much better?
Quote from: Lennys Tap on April 14, 2011, 08:01:13 PM
Leuer has dropped since the start of the season under Bo. Butler came out of nowhere after another year under Buzz. That makes all of us Marquette fans chuckle.
Seems like a good kid, wish we had him on the team...could have helped.
So he's dropped...do you have evidence of this? I have some which I'll list below
Here's what the draft history for Leuer says on DRAFT EXPRESS...that's quite a drop going from 61 at the start of the season to 50 this week. The only "evidence" I see is a bleacher report article that says he'll drop because he had a bad game against Butler...really? One bad game now sums up everything? Interesting. I say 2nd round where I've said he'll go all along.
http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Jon-Leuer-5854/mock-draft-history/
(http://i53.tinypic.com/1zef60w.jpg)
On NBA Draft.net he's a late first rounder and hasn't moved from there...it makes me chuckle. No way is he a first rounder, except for that site and ners.
DraftSite has him at 51, almost the same as DraftExpress
Of course all that matters is what happens on draft day...people picking where someone will get drafted are about as accurate as the preseason polls you love so much. They're for fun, and nothing more.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on April 14, 2011, 10:01:44 PM
Chuckle
3 times in this thread so far. There's no way that there's this much chuckling going on with MUScoop peeps
I am in disbelief that www.nbadraft.net updated again this morning and still doesn't have JFB as one of the top 75 SENIOR prospects, meaning they still don't believe he would be picked in a 4-round draft.
I am starting to hate nbadraft.net.
Quote from: Skatastrophy on April 14, 2011, 10:54:34 PM3 times in this thread so far. There's no way that there's this much chuckling going on with MUScoop peeps
Reading that makes me chuckle.
(Really, I did honestly chuckle ;) )
Quote from: Lennys Tap on April 14, 2011, 08:01:13 PM
Leuer has dropped since the start of the season under Bo. Butler came out of nowhere after another year under Buzz. That makes all of us Marquette fans chuckle.
I'm not so sure Leuer "dropped" so much as he was surpassed on Wisconsin's team in my opinion. I think Taylor obviously started wowing people and, frankly, that red-headed kid seems like a keeper to me. Leuer is who he always was, he just stopped standing out so much.
Butler is going to go higher than the 7th pick in the 2nd round.....
The first round gives "guaranteed money".....and that works both ways.....
Non-guaranteed guys like Wes can get a "huge" free agent contract after a year if they are not on a first round guarantee.....
The problem the NBA has is some of the "slugs' they draft in the first round want the $3m+ 3 year and they are done....They don't give a rats A$$ about getting that 2nd contract or getting better....
I think everyone is comfortable in saying that Jimmy Butler is not in that category.....
Jimmy Butler "will" be a first round pick......
Jimmy Butler "will" not get past the Bulls late in the first round......maybe earlier.....
Quote from: burger on April 15, 2011, 07:53:43 AM
Butler is going to go higher than the 7th pick in the 2nd round.....
The first round gives "guaranteed money".....and that works both ways.....
Non-guaranteed guys like Wes can get a "huge" free agent contract after a year if they are not on a first round guarantee.....
The problem the NBA has is some of the "slugs' they draft in the first round want the $3m+ 3 year and they are done....They don't give a rats A$$ about getting that 2nd contract or getting better....
I think everyone is comfortable in saying that Jimmy Butler is not in that category.....
Jimmy Butler "will" be a first round pick......
Jimmy Butler "will" not get past the Bulls late in the first round......maybe earlier.....
I love JFB to death, but no.
Quote from: burger on April 15, 2011, 07:53:43 AM
Butler is going to go higher than the 7th pick in the 2nd round.....
The first round gives "guaranteed money".....and that works both ways.....
Non-guaranteed guys like Wes can get a "huge" free agent contract after a year if they are not on a first round guarantee.....
The problem the NBA has is some of the "slugs' they draft in the first round want the $3m+ 3 year and they are done....They don't give a rats A$$ about getting that 2nd contract or getting better....
I think everyone is comfortable in saying that Jimmy Butler is not in that category.....
Jimmy Butler "will" be a first round pick......
Jimmy Butler "will" not get past the Bulls late in the first round......maybe earlier.....
No. Wes was undrafted. Second round picks are non-guaranteed, but they don't have the ability to negotiate new contracts after their first year.
Quote from: burger on April 15, 2011, 07:53:43 AM
Butler is going to go higher than the 7th pick in the 2nd round.....
The first round gives "guaranteed money".....and that works both ways.....
Non-guaranteed guys like Wes can get a "huge" free agent contract after a year if they are not on a first round guarantee.....
The problem the NBA has is some of the "slugs' they draft in the first round want the $3m+ 3 year and they are done....They don't give a rats A$$ about getting that 2nd contract or getting better....
I think everyone is comfortable in saying that Jimmy Butler is not in that category.....
Jimmy Butler "will" be a first round pick......
Jimmy Butler "will" not get past the Bulls late in the first round......maybe earlier.....
Exception, not rule. Name the last guy before Wes this happened to. I can't, because I never heard of it happening before.
Quote from: RawdogDX on April 15, 2011, 10:06:05 AM
No. Wes was undrafted. Second round picks are non-guaranteed, but they don't have the ability to negotiate new contracts after their first year.
So, the best possible scenario for Jimmy would be to go undrafted. Much as it would offend those of us here. Unfortunately, JB will get drafted, and have to wait on his payday.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on April 14, 2011, 10:01:44 PM
Seems like a good kid, wish we had him on the team...could have helped.
So he's dropped...do you have evidence of this? I have some which I'll list below
Here's what the draft history for Leuer says on DRAFT EXPRESS...that's quite a drop going from 61 at the start of the season to 50 this week. The only "evidence" I see is a bleacher report article that says he'll drop because he had a bad game against Butler...really? One bad game now sums up everything? Interesting. I say 2nd round where I've said he'll go all along.
http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Jon-Leuer-5854/mock-draft-history/
(http://i53.tinypic.com/1zef60w.jpg)
On NBA Draft.net he's a late first rounder and hasn't moved from there...it makes me chuckle. No way is he a first rounder, except for that site and ners.
DraftSite has him at 51, almost the same as DraftExpress
Of course all that matters is what happens on draft day...people picking where someone will get drafted are about as accurate as the preseason polls you love so much. They're for fun, and nothing more.
From 61 to 50... sounds like a drop to me! ;)
I believe I still have a shoe to eat if Jimmy gets drafted.
Quote from: Hards_Alumni on April 15, 2011, 12:56:58 PM
I believe I still have a shoe to eat if Jimmy gets drafted.
Quote from: Hards_Alumni on April 06, 2011, 10:00:05 PM
I love Jimmy Butler as much as the next guy, but if he gets drafted I'll eat my shoe.
(http://www.gigacrate.com/Blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/doh.gif)
Quote from: Hards_Alumni on April 15, 2011, 12:56:58 PM
I believe I still have a shoe to eat if Jimmy gets drafted.
I'd watch that on youtube. Wait, is this you? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ad52VmWVMx0
Who would leuer guard in the
Who would leuer guard in the NBA? He is no where big enough to guard a 4 and not quick enough to guard a 3.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on April 15, 2011, 01:25:11 PM
Who would leuer guard in the NBA? He is no where big enough to guard a 4 and not quick enough to guard a 3.
They guard players in the NBA?
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on April 15, 2011, 01:26:01 PM
They guard players in the NBA?
[/quote
Better than they guard people anywhere else on the planet. If they didn't Steve Novak would be a star instead of an end of the bench often lookin' for a job guy.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on April 15, 2011, 01:26:01 PM
They guard players in the NBA?
Not calling you out specifically, but I can't stand when people say this. It clearly shows that they don't ever watch an NBA game. I like college basketball a ton, obviously because of MU, but the NBA is such better basketball.
MCB:WNBA
NBA:MCB
I hate NBA basketball. Find it attrocious basketball for the first 3+ periods and then they start to play basketball at the end of the game and in the playoffs. I know some folks love to go ga-ga over that style but no thanks. Sure, some guys play outstanding defense and give it their all, but way too many guys don't for what they are paid.
Case in point, Carmelo Anthony. I'm sure some of you differ, but there are a just away too many players that don't play much defense, nor do they have to because of the 24 second clock. Way too much one on one basketball. Brutal to watch....each to his own I guess. Maybe that's why the teams in the NBA I do like, are defensive oriented but they are few and far between. I'd also argue the defense today is not as good as it was in the 80's and 90's.
This sums up pretty well where I come from on the issue
http://triadsportsdaily.com/post/3426971707
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on April 15, 2011, 02:08:29 PM
I hate NBA basketball. Find it attrocious basketball for the first 3+ periods and then they start to play basketball at the end of the game and in the playoffs. I know some folks love to go ga-ga over that style but no thanks. Sure, some guys play outstanding defense and give it their all, but way too many guys don't for what they are paid.
Case in point, Carmelo Anthony. I'm sure some of you differ, but there are a just away too many players that don't play much defense, nor do they have to because of the 24 second clock. Way too much one on one basketball. Brutal to watch....each to his own I guess. Maybe that's why the teams in the NBA I do like, are defensive oriented but they are few and far between. I'd also argue the defense today is not as good as it was in the 80's and 90's.
This sums up pretty well where I come from on the issue
http://triadsportsdaily.com/post/3426971707
+1
However, I think we are coming out of the McGrady, Iverson (we talkin' about practice), Jermaine O'Neal, Stephon Marbury era of players leading the league. The Spurs and Lakers got almost all of the titles in that era because they played hard.
The generation in their prime I think plays pretty hard. James, Wade, Bosh, Paul, Williams, Amare are all competitive and play pretty hard. However, I think that they are more focused on being celebrities than winning ultimately. Anthony like you mention is the biggest example and really is not fun to watch.
The up-coming generation, I think, is a throw back to the 1990s and 1980s. I see a different level of commitment and courage when I watch Durant, Rose, and Westbrook. Even Blake Griffin had to be told to back off when he was hustling too much at the end of a game. I think that this generation of players is making the game more interesting and could bring the NBA back. The Bulls and Thunder are both a lot of fun to watch and hope that other teams will catch on to that formula. Nothing but winners on those teams.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on April 15, 2011, 02:08:29 PM
I hate NBA basketball. Find it attrocious basketball for the first 3+ periods and then they start to play basketball at the end of the game and in the playoffs. I know some folks love to go ga-ga over that style but no thanks. Sure, some guys play outstanding defense and give it their all, but way too many guys don't for what they are paid.
Case in point, Carmelo Anthony. I'm sure some of you differ, but there are a just away too many players that don't play much defense, nor do they have to because of the 24 second clock. Way too much one on one basketball. Brutal to watch....each to his own I guess. Maybe that's why the teams in the NBA I do like, are defensive oriented but they are few and far between. I'd also argue the defense today is not as good as it was in the 80's and 90's.
This sums up pretty well where I come from on the issue
http://triadsportsdaily.com/post/3426971707
To each his own on preferences. If a Schaumburg Flyers baseball game is a more enjoyable experience for you than a Cubs or Sox game so be it. Rather watch a Northwestern football games than a Bears game? That's fine too. But don't insult the game. The best basketball, football, baseball, etc is played by the pros. That includes offense, defense, coaching and anything else you can measure. And it's not close.
Quote from: HoopsMalone on April 15, 2011, 02:27:47 PM
+1
However, I think we are coming out of the McGrady, Iverson (we talkin' about practice), Jermaine O'Neal, Stephon Marbury era of players leading the league. The Spurs and Lakers got almost all of the titles in that era because they played hard.
The generation in their prime I think plays pretty hard. James, Wade, Bosh, Paul, Williams, Amare are all competitive and play pretty hard. However, I think that they are more focused on being celebrities than winning ultimately. Anthony like you mention is the biggest example and really is not fun to watch.
The up-coming generation, I think, is a throw back to the 1990s and 1980s. I see a different level of commitment and courage when I watch Durant, Rose, and Westbrook. Even Blake Griffin had to be told to back off when he was hustling too much at the end of a game. I think that this generation of players is making the game more interesting and could bring the NBA back. The Bulls and Thunder are both a lot of fun to watch and hope that other teams will catch on to that formula. Nothing but winners on those teams.
I hope you are right. I totally gave up on the league the last decade plus because it was such an abortion to watch. There are some guys like Griffin, Wade, etc that are fun to watch because they give it their all. Locally, the Lakers are a cast of misfits where some guys play hard and others are an enigma. Maybe I'll watch a bit of the playoffs this year but it's going to take a lot to get me interested again in watch that league...the almost certain lockout will not help.
Its interesting to me to compare the women's game to men's basketball generally, and contrast that with the college ball to pro ball comparison.
I don't watch the women's game because it bores the hell out of me. No threat of individual explosion and no "woah" factor.
Yet on the other hand, I vastly prefer the college game to the NBA. My internal impulse after reading Lennys' response was to say that the best players are in the NBA, but the best team game is college. Clearly thats a bad analysis, because the players make the game, especially when each team only has 5 playing at one time. But that was my initial, striking reaction.
Its the same type of debate as to why we should appreciate the women's game. The teamwork, the fundamentals, etc. Yet I give an NBA like response for not being interested. Then when the NBA comes up, I give the exact same types of arguments that should draw me to the women's game. Why am I such a hypocrite?
Quote from: MUBurrow on April 15, 2011, 02:43:28 PM
Its interesting to me to compare the women's game to men's basketball generally, and contrast that with the college ball to pro ball comparison.
I don't watch the women's game because it bores the hell out of me. No threat of individual explosion and no "woah" factor.
Yet on the other hand, I vastly prefer the college game to the NBA. My internal impulse after reading Lennys' response was to say that the best players are in the NBA, but the best team game is college. Clearly thats a bad analysis, because the players make the game, especially when each team only has 5 playing at one time. But that was my initial, striking reaction.
Its the same type of debate as to why we should appreciate the women's game. The teamwork, the fundamentals, etc. Yet I give an NBA like response for not being interested. Then when the NBA comes up, I give the exact same types of arguments that should draw me to the women's game. Why am I such a hypocrite?
Maybe the reason you prefer the men's college game is the same as mine - that's where your/my heart (Marquette) is. But let's not kid ourselves about the quality of basketball being played. Did anyone watch the NCAA championship game? It made a Minnesota Timberwolves/LA Clippers game look like a piece of fine art.
Chicos, my advice is to watch the Bulls. Okay, maybe not Boozer, but the rest of the Bulls. Rose, Deng, Noah, Bogans, those guys kill it on the defensive end. And Noah is one of my favorite players to watch (though I fully understand non-Bulls fans hating him) because he gives everything he has on the court and doesn't give a damn what anyone thinks. As a collective unit, they simply live to win, and they understand the importance of playing defense in achieving that goal.
That's why I want Butler to sneak into the first round with one of Chicago's late picks. I think he's a really good fit as a bench player for Thibodeau.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on April 15, 2011, 03:00:12 PM
Maybe the reason you prefer the men's college game is the same as mine - that's where your/my heart (Marquette) is. But let's not kid ourselves about the quality of basketball being played. Did anyone watch the NCAA championship game? It made a Minnesota Timberwolves/LA Clippers game look like a piece of fine art.
Disagree....I prefer a college basketball game that Marquette is not playing in over just about any NBA game.
You like the NBA, a lot of people don't. Some of it is the smug, arrogant attitude of the players, some of it is watching a guy take 4 steps and never get called for a travel, some of it is watching another player breathe on a star like Kobe and get called for a foul, etc, etc. Congrats, you like the NBA....I think all of us appreciate how great the athletes are and how refined their skills are, but when you throw in the attitudes, the "star rules", the arrogance, etc....no thanks.
Quote from: brewcity77 on April 15, 2011, 03:08:54 PM
Chicos, my advice is to watch the Bulls. Okay, maybe not Boozer, but the rest of the Bulls. Rose, Deng, Noah, Bogans, those guys kill it on the defensive end. And Noah is one of my favorite players to watch (though I fully understand non-Bulls fans hating him) because he gives everything he has on the court and doesn't give a damn what anyone thinks. As a collective unit, they simply live to win, and they understand the importance of playing defense in achieving that goal.
That's why I want Butler to sneak into the first round with one of Chicago's late picks. I think he's a really good fit as a bench player for Thibodeau.
I stopped watching the Bull when Jordan would walk on the floor and his main defender had 4 fouls on him before the first jump ball. The Jordan Rules (same with the Kobe Rules, etc, etc) make it impossible for me to watch without thinking it's 8 on 5 much of the time. I get enough of that nonsense here with the Lakers and all the BS treatment they get from the league and refs over the years. No thanks
Quote from: Lennys Tap on April 15, 2011, 02:29:51 PM
To each his own on preferences. If a Schaumburg Flyers baseball game is a more enjoyable experience for you than a Cubs or Sox game so be it. Rather watch a Northwestern football games than a Bears game? That's fine too. But don't insult the game. The best basketball, football, baseball, etc is played by the pros. That includes offense, defense, coaching and anything else you can measure. And it's not close.
No one said the best athletes and best players aren't in the pros, but don't insult people who prefer the game in a different format....nor throw out OPINION like "it's not even close" in terms of what is more enjoyable, etc. The NBA game is DIFFERENT than the college game. Many people don't like the NBA "version" and we can insult the "game" all we want, that doesn't mean we are insulting the ability of the players, coaches, etc. It's the GAME we object to.
The Pros are Pros, they're supposed to be better individually...that doesn't mean it's more enjoyable to watch or that the "game" is better. It's an opinion.
Did you realize until last year, the last five years of NBA Finals ratings were lower than the NCAA Championship finals? Seems there are a lot of people out there that prefer one game over another. The Lakers defeating the Celtics last year got them over the hump but NBA finals ratings have been pretty mediocre. From 2005 until 2009, the NBA Finals couldn't even get a 10 rating.
In fact, if you want to get into "not even close", you should compare the ratings of the two. Almost double the tv ratings since 2001 to 2010 in the NCAA Championship vs the NBA Finals.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on April 15, 2011, 04:11:20 PMI stopped watching the Bull when Jordan would walk on the floor and his main defender had 4 fouls on him before the first jump ball. The Jordan Rules (same with the Kobe Rules, etc, etc) make it impossible for me to watch without thinking it's 8 on 5 much of the time. I get enough of that nonsense here with the Lakers and all the BS treatment they get from the league and refs over the years. No thanks
You do realize Michael hasn't played for the Bulls in over a decade, right? I'm saying if you want to see the right brand of basketball, watch this current Bulls team. Rose may be getting some star treatment, but it's not to the level of Kobe or MJ or even close. Besides, we see star treatment in the NCAAs as well, so it's not like it's completely foreign regardless.
My guess is in 2-3 years, Rose will get the same calls that all the NBA all-time greats tend to get. They may still play defense, but probably won't have the scrappiness and passion about it that you see from that team today. I really think that this year, and maybe next, the Bulls will be that fun-to-watch lightning-in-a-bottle type team that doesn't come along in the NBA very often. Sort of how the Spurs were back in the day. I say enjoy it while it lasts, because once Miami gets a bench and a point guard, there won't be another hard-working championship team for quite a few years.
Is it okay if I love both?
And I agree with Brew, the Bulls (and Thunder) play great team basketball. It's a different era than the 2000s already.
How is this thread even an argument?
The NBA is the best basketball being played. (Period)
You can enjoy the NCAA more, but you almost have to admit you are watching a inferior product and bad basketball.
I watch way more NCAA than NBA, and I realize there is a far better product being played on a different television station.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on April 15, 2011, 03:00:12 PM
Maybe the reason you prefer the men's college game is the same as mine - that's where your/my heart (Marquette) is. But let's not kid ourselves about the quality of basketball being played. Did anyone watch the NCAA championship game? It made a Minnesota Timberwolves/LA Clippers game look like a piece of fine art.
You're absolutely right, Lenny.
I'm not a huge fan of the pro game (too much repetitive pick-and-roll/pick-and-pop, too much time at the foul line), but the quality of the basketball is far superior to the college game. You almost never see the kind of dog games in the NBA playoffs as regularly occurs in the NCAA tournament, most notably this year's final.
And, yes, NBA players will occasionally dog it in the regular season. An 82-game schedule (plus 8 pre-season games) full of meaningless matchups will do that. But NBA playoff games are every bit as intense as any tournament game, and played at a much higher skill level.
If someone prefers the college game, for whatever reason, there's nothing wrong with that. But anyone who claims the college game is
better basketball is either kidding themselves or outta their gourd.
Quote from: marqptm on April 15, 2011, 05:32:46 PM
How is this thread even an argument?
The NBA is the best basketball being played. (Period)
You can enjoy the NCAA more, but you almost have to admit you are watching a inferior product and bad basketball.
I watch way more NCAA than NBA, and I realize there is a far better product being played on a different television station.
YOUR OPINION
The people voting with their eyeballs (television ratings) are obviously saying something different
This stupid notion of comparing minor league baseball to major league baseball (Lenny's ploy a few posts ago) may have been a new absurdity here, which is saying something. Minor league baseball and major league baseball are the SAME GAME. Same rules, same everything. The difference is the talent level, but the bases are still 90 feet, the mound still 60' 6", there are 3 outs, 4 balls \ 3 strikes, 9 innings, etc. The ball is the same, the bats are the same.
College basketball and NBA basketball are NOT THE SAME GAME so comparing that to baseball analogy is a whopper. Different 3 point line distance, 24 second shot clock, 4 periods vs 2 halves, 40 minutes total game vs 48, 6 PF vs 5, restricted zone (semi circle) under hoop vs no restricted zone, 10 seconds vs 8 seconds to get across half court line, 16' lane vs 12' lane, jump balls vs non jump balls, and on and on and on. They are different games.
That is the difference. It's very easy to like both, or just like one, but rest assured you are choosing to like or dislike two different versions of the game and a lot of people don't care for one version or the other. I can tell from the business that I'm in that people pay for college basketball subscriptions at a much higher rate than the NBA product. I can also tell you from a ratings perspective the NCAA finals vs the NBA finals have the edge with the NCAA for most years.
Quote from: Hards_Alumni on April 15, 2011, 12:56:58 PM
I believe I still have a shoe to eat if Jimmy gets drafted.
Well, at least you'll be in good company.
Tulsa Warrior ate a part of his computer (and posted it on youtube) when he claimed he would do so if Dale Layer got the head coaching gig at Liberty.
Quote from: Pakuni on April 15, 2011, 05:41:51 PM
You're absolutely right, Lenny.
I'm not a huge fan of the pro game (too much repetitive pick-and-roll/pick-and-pop, too much time at the foul line), but the quality of the basketball is far superior to the college game. You almost never see the kind of dog games in the NBA playoffs as regularly occurs in the NCAA tournament, most notably this year's final.
And, yes, NBA players will occasionally dog it in the regular season. An 82-game schedule (plus 8 pre-season games) full of meaningless matchups will do that. But NBA playoff games are every bit as intense as any tournament game, and played at a much higher skill level.
If someone prefers the college game, for whatever reason, there's nothing wrong with that. But anyone who claims the college game is better basketball is either kidding themselves or outta their gourd.
On this we agree..NBA playoffs are exciting...makes you wonder why they wait until then to actually give a damn. "Occassionally dog it?" LOL
I guess a lot of people are out of their gourd...those actually watching the games or paying for subscriptions. People vote with their wallets and viewing habits. Most basketball fans enjoy the talents of Rose, Kobe, etc...no one denies that. People don't like the BS during the year, the lolligagging on the court, the preferential rules, etc. It's not a matter of who has the better athletes (the NBA) or who has better shooters (NBA)...it goes deeper than that. It's what you want to watch...what entertains you, what gets you excited about the sport, what is more pleasing to watch.
Believe it or not, some people don't mind seeing a college team not make every shot and struggling to shoot 40% but busting their ass anyway to try and win. There is something compelling about watching student athletes accomplish this that appeals to many folks rather than watching a multi-millionaire hit 6 three pointers in a row.
This just in, there are a huge number of college fans that hate the NBA and vice versa. I have volumes of that information that we use to market sports to fans every year. The cross over between the two fan bases is quite small....they are different fan bases. The cross over between NFL and college football fans is very strong, but not with basketball. Reams of data that supports this.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on April 15, 2011, 05:42:36 PM
YOUR OPINION
The people voting with their eyeballs (television ratings) are obviously saying something different
This stupid notion of comparing minor league baseball to major league baseball (Lenny's ploy a few posts ago) may have been a new absurdity here, which is saying something. Minor league baseball and major league baseball are the SAME GAME. Same rules, same everything. The difference is the talent level, but the bases are still 90 feet, the mound still 60' 6", there are 3 outs, 4 balls \ 3 strikes, 9 innings, etc. The ball is the same, the bats are the same.
College basketball and NBA basketball are NOT THE SAME GAME so comparing that to baseball analogy is a whopper. Different 3 point line distance, 24 second shot clock, 4 periods vs 2 halves, 40 minutes total game vs 48, 6 PF vs 5, restricted zone (semi circle) under hoop vs no restricted zone, 10 seconds vs 8 seconds to get across half court line, 16' lane vs 12' lane, jump balls vs non jump balls, and on and on and on. They are different games.
That is the difference. It's very easy to like both, or just like one, but rest assured you are choosing to like or dislike two different versions of the game and a lot of people don't care for one version or the other. I can tell from the business that I'm in that people pay for college basketball subscriptions at a much higher rate than the NBA product. I can also tell you from a ratings perspective the NCAA finals vs the NBA finals have the edge with the NCAA for most years.
Chicos, get over yourself and ratings.
The best talent, players, coaches, mascots, cheerleaders, TV announcers, PA announcers, everything exist in the NBA. That is not opinion, but fact.
There are many different aspects that are going into NCAA ratings versus NBA ratings, and you know that. Stop comparing apples and oranges.
Quote from: marqptm on April 15, 2011, 06:00:54 PM
Chicos, get over yourself and ratings.
The best talent, players, coaches, mascots, cheerleaders, TV announcers, PA announcers, everything exist in the NBA. That is not opinion, but fact.
There are many different aspects that are going into NCAA ratings versus NBA ratings, and you know that. Stop comparing apples and oranges.
No one ever said the best talent, coaches, players are in the NBA...I'd love for you to show where anyone said differently. Cheerleaders...hmm, that might be up for debate...between 345 schools of cheerleaders vs 30....I'd be up for that challenge.
Funny you say stop comparing apples to oranges...you mean like comparing the NBA game vs the NCAA game....how ironic. They are totally different games and a lot of people prefer THE COLLEGE GAME to the PRO GAME, despite the better players in the NBA. This may be too nuanced for you, but that is also a FACT and I've got hundreds of millions of dollars to prove it with ratings and subscription revenue to back it up.
You like the NBA...congrats. I like college bball. That's fine too. It's possible to like both and equally possible to only like one. Enjoy your weekend.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on April 15, 2011, 08:11:40 PM
No one ever said the best talent, coaches, players are in the NBA...I'd love for you to show where anyone said differently. Cheerleaders...hmm, that might be up for debate...between 345 schools of cheerleaders vs 30....I'd be up for that challenge.
Funny you say stop comparing apples to oranges...you mean like comparing the NBA game vs the NCAA game....how ironic. They are totally different games and a lot of people prefer THE COLLEGE GAME to the PRO GAME, despite the better players in the NBA. This may be too nuanced for you, but that is also a FACT and I've got hundreds of millions of dollars to prove it with ratings and subscription revenue to back it up.
You like the NBA...congrats. I like college bball. That's fine too. It's possible to like both and equally possible to only like one. Enjoy your weekend.
I stated it before, I don't prefer the NBA.
However, I recongize I prefer an inferior basketball product.
Basketball is basketball. It's the same game. Otherwise, Buzz would not watch the last 4 minutes of close NBA games to get ideas for inbound plays to run, etc.
The rules that are different are to create a faster and more difficult game for better athletes. I think the college game would only benefit from a shorter shot clock. 8 v. 10 seconds to get the ball over halfcourt; who cares? The longer 3-point shot spaces the floor more. Obviously, the shorter 3-point shot in the NCAA game makes more teams more competitive because the easier the shot the more people can make it.
The two recent rule changes--the charge circle and the respect for the game rule-- are both great rules. I didn't think I would like the respect for the game rule, but it makes the NBA game more watchable, and I became annoyed at college players this year (Pitt was the biggest culprit I could remember) for whining at the refs. College coaches are probably the biggest offenders at this point, and the kids just take after their coaches.
I hope the CBA brings about a 2-3 year min for college players. It will only make the college game better. Also, if guys don't want to go to college, or they want to make money right away, then go to Europe. It would be cool if European leagues became a type of alternative minor league system.
The argument equating popularity with quality is asinine. It would then follow that Brittney Spears or Justin Beeber are the best musicians in the world. And McDonalds, or some such thing, is the best food in the world.
I don't care whether people prefer college or pro ball. I think they're both great, and they're different animals with their own problems. It's all basketball. When a guy or a team is doing something awesome on the court, I don't care how much money they're making. There's more to the NBA than the Bulls and Thunder, and I think its going to be a great playoffs. There have been great regular season NBA games all year.
Quote from: brewcity77 on April 14, 2011, 08:36:30 PM
I've been seeing Leuer's name a lot at the end of round 1, mostly going to the Bulls lately. Which I would hate, because I'm a Bulls fan, and frankly, with Noah, Boozer, Asik, Gibson, and even Thomas, I just don't see where Leuer fits in.
I'd love Butler in a Bulls uni, his defense would endear him to Thibodeau, he could back up at the 2 and 3. Though my first pick would be Marshon Brooks, we need a SG that can score a bit, and I think Brooks could develop into a 12-14 ppg guy.
First off:
The Bulls are built on defense.....Jimmy Butler is one of the best 2 guards (NBA) that can play defense against any 2/3...(similiar to WES)
The Bulls have a gaping whole at 2.....They have Corver who is instant offense at the 2....But they have a real slug in Bogans who will not be there next year.....
They need a flexable 2/3...Who can play defense....Share the ball.....Play within a "system" with a Hi BBall IQ....
Butler is absolutely perfect.....
Now my credentials over the past 2 years....(yes blowing my own horn)
1. I said Wes Matthews would be the first of the Amigos to make an NBA roster.....(I thought both James and McNeal would both make it eventually)....Maybe they will....We shall see.....PS....McNeal was just named 3rd team All Development league......not bad......
2. I said Lazar would get drafted within the first 10 picks of the 2nd round.....(I never thought he would make the first)
This is my educated prognostication.....We shall see.....I will admit if I am wrong.....
As a Bulls fan....I am worried he will get drafted earlier!
Chicos... The fact that you prefer college basketball is fine. However, what set this entire thread off was the outdated statement that they don't play defense in the NBA. The defense in the NBA is relentless. Sure, there are times during the long regular season that it falters in the first half of some games. But your initial statement was simply false.
Quote from: PuertoRicanNightmare on April 14, 2011, 07:59:28 PM
Nobody's giving guaranteed money to Jereme Richmond. Nobody
I couldn't agree more. I generally thing DraftExpress has insightful analysis. But the idea of Jereme Richmond going in the late first, maybe to a veteran team, is implausible.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on April 16, 2011, 12:49:08 PM
Chicos... The fact that you prefer college basketball is fine. However, what set this entire thread off was the outdated statement that they don't play defense in the NBA. The defense in the NBA is relentless. Sure, there are times during the long regular season that it falters in the first half of some games. But your initial statement was simply false.
True. Chico started with a simple factually false statement. Rather than just admit it he built a doctoral thesis around it.
And let me tell you one thing....that first game of the NBA playoffs was better baketball than anything you saw in the NCAA tournament this year.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on April 16, 2011, 02:39:39 PM
And let me tell you one thing....that first game of the NBA playoffs was better baketball than anything you saw in the NCAA tournament this year.
Agreed. If you like basketball, you absolutely had to like watching that game.
The NBA is better basketball than college. That is a fact. Some might like college better (attitude, $$, alma mater..etc) but to say college is a better game than the NBA isn't true no matter how you slice it. Also, to say that college and the NBA are different games is absurd.
Quote from: karavotsos on April 15, 2011, 09:39:16 PM
Basketball is basketball. It's the same game. Otherwise, Buzz would not watch the last 4 minutes of close NBA games to get ideas for inbound plays to run, etc.
It's not the same game in my opinion and I'm not alone.
That doesn't mean you can't learn by watching inbound plays from the NBA...in fact that's really ridiculous that you even bring that up. Hell, I was watching an interview with a NHL coach the other day about a play they drew up which they said they stole from a basketball...a pick play by putting their players rubbing off the pick near the goal (just as in basketball they would do it near the basket). Last I checked hockey and basketball were different games, but that doesn't mean you can't learn something from other sports that can work in your own.
Listening to Tim Donaghy this morning on the radio was just another reason to remind me about all the ills of the NBA (yes, the NCAA has had it's share as well).
And I read Juiced, so now I don't watch MLB.
Seriously. Also, the measurements argument is not a legitimate argument. You realize every MLB ballpark has different measurements, right? Also, football games and tennis matches are played on different surfaces, and yet people all recognize a baseball game as a baseball game and a tennis match as a tennis match and a football game as a football game. Aluminum bats, etc.
Also, you realize that players from college basketball who are successful go on to play in the NBA, right? I don't know of one college basketball player who went on to play pro hockey (I'm sure you'll name someone, if there is one). If college basketball and pro basketball were that different and hockey and basketball were that similar it seems there would be a greater crossover.
The hockey anecdote just shows to go you how much more intelligent bball coaches are than hockey coaches. This anonymous coach really had to watch basketball to figure out that getting in a player's way stops him from getting where he wants to go? Anyway, it was a great story, and I think Buzz said he watches a lot of hockey too to get ideas. Sorry for bringing up such a stupid point.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on April 16, 2011, 12:49:08 PM
Chicos... The fact that you prefer college basketball is fine. However, what set this entire thread off was the outdated statement that they don't play defense in the NBA. The defense in the NBA is relentless. Sure, there are times during the long regular season that it falters in the first half of some games. But your initial statement was simply false.
Your opinion. I feel a number of teams often don't play defense the first 3 quarters. The LA Clippers here in my hometown have been an example for years. The Lakers, often this year, have mailed it in. It's one reason I like the Celtics....Doc's teams play defense. Phil's teams usually play defense, but this year they've been all over the board.
Your opinion is they play defense, my opinion is they don't consistently and do when the timing is right or the 4th quarter arrives. I suppose it depends on what team you are watching. Nothing infuriates me more than spending good money on a ticket, watching them dog it for 3 quarters and then SUDDENLY, as if a wizard from Kansas flies in and says "start playing defense now". Some teams do it the whole game, but way too many of these clowns don't. In the playoffs, yes, maximum effort. Wouldn't it be nice to see that during the regular season at $75 a seat?
Again, my opinion is not solely mine just as there are many opinions that suggest NBA players play defense 24/7. Sure, some teams play defense and certainly all of them do...when they feel like it. Just another reason I prefer the college game because a college coach would yank a player for not playing defense.
http://dimemag.com/2010/01/the-defense-rests/
http://triadsportsdaily.com/post/3426971707
Chicos...the players aren't stupid. The season is 82 games long, over 100 if they are successful in the playoffs. If they went all out every minute of every game, they'd be dead. And you see that on both ends of the floor. But look at an NBA game from the 70s or 80s and the one thing you would notice is how much better the players are now on both ends of the floor.
Maybe the best solution would be to play less games. The best NBA season I recall was the lockout shortened one of a few years ago that was only 50 games long.
But watch an NBA playoff game and that's when you realize how incredible the game is. In constrast, I think the NCAA tournament has been sucking for awhile. Outside of the frenzy of the first and second round, there is a lot of bad basketball....especially this year's final four which was pretty much terrible.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on April 16, 2011, 10:12:35 PM
Nothing infuriates me more than spending good money on a ticket, watching them dog it for 3 quarters and then SUDDENLY, as if a wizard from Kansas flies in and says "start playing defense now".
I read this entire thread yesterday, and I am completely confused regarding whether you have watched NBA basketball in the past 20 years or not. However, I think your quote above is at least part of what keeps people away. Basketball is not MLB where you sit out in the sun for 3-4 hours and can just pretty much ignore the game and go just to go somewhere. Its also not NFL where if you can go its 8-10 times a year, so you have to go. Its less of an event. The game has to entertain you, or you don't go.
The last 2 years the circus atmosphere-at least in Milwaukee- is gone. It's just NBA basketball. And like you say if you don't like it, you don't like it. And a fan's opinion can rightfully be based on one game. This reality is what is what is going to have to be confronted at least somewhat in the new CBA. It should be interesting. I think Simmons on his podcast suggested smaller arenas. I would love that. Dont think its going to fly.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on April 16, 2011, 10:12:35 PMNothing infuriates me more than spending good money on a ticket, watching them dog it for 3 quarters and then SUDDENLY, as if a wizard from Kansas flies in and says "start playing defense now".
Nothing infuriates you more? Really? Seriously? I don't think this would even register a minor blip on most people's "infuriation meter".
Quote from: Lennys Tap on April 17, 2011, 10:28:40 AM
Nothing infuriates you more? Really? Seriously? I don't think this would even register a minor blip on most people's "infuriation meter".
Good point, quite frankly, I would have to think harsh criticism of Tom Crean and high praise for Buzz Williams, infuriates CBB more than anything. Or perhaps MU's recruitment of JUCO's under Buzz? But NBA players dogging it for 3 quarters when said poster chose to spend money on a product he already dislikes?? Seems kind of masochistic to to me.
Quote from: jmayer1 on April 16, 2011, 05:06:55 PM
The NBA is better basketball than college. That is a fact. Some might like college better (attitude, $$, alma mater..etc) but to say college is a better game than the NBA isn't true no matter how you slice it. Also, to say that college and the NBA are different games is absurd.
Your opinion, the ratings say something different. Some people like it when the players try THE WHOLE GAME. Some people like the fact there are kids out there busting their ass and not getting paid to be lazy @#$ks for 3/4 of the game. NO ONE, I repeat, NO ONE, is saying the NCAA players are better or that they are more skilled or anything of the kind. But yes, a lot of people prefer one game to the other.
They aren't different? That's laughable, of course they are.
Tell me, team goes down by 1 point with 3 seconds to go and has a timeout. In college, the team now has 3 seconds to go 94 feet while in the NBA they get to advance the ball to the front court. That is a MAJOR difference THAT DECIDES GAMES and makes the game different.
Tell me, team is down 1 point with 15 seconds left and makes a great defensive play by forcing a jump ball...in the NBA there is an actual jump ball where the team is rewarded for a CHANCE to get that jump ball...in college...possession arrow. Tell me that isn't a MAJOR difference that can decide a game and makes the game different.
Tell me, 1 minute left in the game, your best player has 4 fouls and is called for his 5th in the college game...bye bye. Done for the game. In the Pros, he gets to continue out there to play. Tell me that isn't a MAJOR difference that can decide a game's outcome.
Tell me, your team is up by 1 point late in the game but the other team has 7 team fouls. They purposely foul one of your guys that now has to go to the line for a 1 and 1. In the NBA, where ALL THESE GREAT PLAYERS ARE, do they have that same pressure? Nope...they get two shots when they are in the penalty (remember the old NBA days where they had 3 to make 2....what an embarassment that was...3 shots from a pro to make 2...what the hell, are we at a church carnival and the 8 year old is shooting and needs an extra shot?). Tell me that isn't a MAJOR difference that OFTEN decides the final outcome of the game.
And on and on and on.
Sure, the game uses a round ball and 94 feet of court and 10 foot rims. After that, the differences are many and as a result, the games are different. From 7 game playoff series to 1 game eliminations, from the 3 point line distance, the size of the key, zone defenses, 10 second line, 24 second vs 35 second shot clock, fouls for teams and players, periods vs halves, 40 minutes vs 48 minutes, advancing the ball to the front court, etc, etc.
Quote from: karavotsos on April 16, 2011, 10:06:01 PM
And I read Juiced, so now I don't watch MLB.
Seriously. Also, the measurements argument is not a legitimate argument. You realize every MLB ballpark has different measurements, right? Also, football games and tennis matches are played on different surfaces, and yet people all recognize a baseball game as a baseball game and a tennis match as a tennis match and a football game as a football game. Aluminum bats, etc.
If Lenny had said college baseball vs pro baseball, he would have a point. He didn't...he compared minor league baseball to major league baseball...they are the SAME GAME. College baseball and pro baseball are not the same game. The measurements argument is absolutely a legitimate argument. The only RULES of MLB on measurements are the bases and mound. The fence distances or the configurations of them (height, symmetry, etc) are not uniform and never have been. So a MLB game at Fenway is still comparable to a MLB game at Dodger stadium. The rules are also EXACTLY THE SAME. A college basketball game is not the same as a NBA game from the dimensions on the court to the rules, etc. Apples and oranges.
Also, you realize that players from college basketball who are successful go on to play in the NBA, right? I don't know of one college basketball player who went on to play pro hockey (I'm sure you'll name someone, if there is one). If college basketball and pro basketball were that different and hockey and basketball were that similar it seems there would be a greater crossover.
Quote from: karavotsos on April 16, 2011, 10:06:01 PM
Of course....why would anyone say differently? The primary "skill" is still to put the ball in the basket. But using that logic you just used, you would say Arena Football is the same as the NFL...after all, they're out there playing "football", scoring touchdowns, catching passes, blocking, etc. Are they the same? Really?
Quote from: karavotsos on April 16, 2011, 10:06:01 PM
The hockey anecdote just shows to go you how much more intelligent bball coaches are than hockey coaches. This anonymous coach really had to watch basketball to figure out that getting in a player's way stops him from getting where he wants to go? Anyway, it was a great story, and I think Buzz said he watches a lot of hockey too to get ideas. Sorry for bringing up such a stupid point.
Your opinion. I'd argue hockey is a much more difficult game to play and coach than basketball on so many levels. I don't even find it close, quite frankly. To suggest bball coaches are "more intelligent" than hockey coaches...wow, what a stretch. Do you have any IQ tests to back this up or some kind of generally accepted scientific data that backups this claim of yours?
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on April 16, 2011, 10:21:36 PM
Chicos...the players aren't stupid. The season is 82 games long, over 100 if they are successful in the playoffs. If they went all out every minute of every game, they'd be dead. And you see that on both ends of the floor. But look at an NBA game from the 70s or 80s and the one thing you would notice is how much better the players are now on both ends of the floor.
Maybe the best solution would be to play less games. The best NBA season I recall was the lockout shortened one of a few years ago that was only 50 games long.
But watch an NBA playoff game and that's when you realize how incredible the game is. In constrast, I think the NCAA tournament has been sucking for awhile. Outside of the frenzy of the first and second round, there is a lot of bad basketball....especially this year's final four which was pretty much terrible.
Sultan, where have I said that the NBA playoffs aren't solid? I haven't...of course they are. I'd also argue that regular season 4th quarter games are great. My argument is they don't play very hard the first 3 quarters, at least not nearly at the same level. Why do I live D. Wade? Because that guy brings it all 4 quarters. That's a guy earning his money and giving the fans what they want.
I don't disagree with you that they are "pacing" themselves, which is what you are stating. Then why can't most people here just admit that? That's what I've been saying, they lolligag way too much for my taste and the regular season is largely a joke as a result. Might as well turn on the game in the last 6 minutes of the 4th quarter because the first 3 quarters don't mean squat.
Have you guys ever wondered why the NBA's reputation as a league where refs influence games, that David Stern is pulling strings, exists? There's a reason you know.
Personally, for the NBA fans that are all engrossed with it, enjoy it...watching the ankle breaking in Chicago this year trying to get on that bandwagon has been fun (almost as good as watching Blackhawk fans come out of NOWHERE the last two years after a decade in seclusion). It's fine, enjoy it. Let me know who wins, and I pray it's not Kobe and dickwads here in L.A.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on April 17, 2011, 11:00:07 AM
Your opinion, the ratings say something different. Some people like it when the players try THE WHOLE GAME. Some people like the fact there are kids out there busting their ass and not getting paid to be lazy @#$ks for 3/4 of the game. NO ONE, I repeat, NO ONE, is saying the NCAA players are better or that they are more skilled or anything of the kind. But yes, a lot of people prefer one game to the other.
They aren't different? That's laughable, of course they are.
Tell me, team goes down by 1 point with 3 seconds to go and has a timeout. In college, the team now has 3 seconds to go 94 feet while in the NBA they get to advance the ball to the front court. That is a MAJOR difference THAT DECIDES GAMES and makes the game different.
Tell me, team is down 1 point with 15 seconds left and makes a great defensive play by forcing a jump ball...in the NBA there is an actual jump ball where the team is rewarded for a CHANCE to get that jump ball...in college...possession arrow. Tell me that isn't a MAJOR difference that can decide a game and makes the game different.
Tell me, 1 minute left in the game, your best player has 4 fouls and is called for his 5th in the college game...bye bye. Done for the game. In the Pros, he gets to continue out there to play. Tell me that isn't a MAJOR difference that can decide a game's outcome.
Tell me, your team is up by 1 point late in the game but the other team has 7 team fouls. They purposely foul one of your guys that now has to go to the line for a 1 and 1. In the NBA, where ALL THESE GREAT PLAYERS ARE, do they have that same pressure? Nope...they get two shots when they are in the penalty (remember the old NBA days where they had 3 to make 2....what an embarassment that was...3 shots from a pro to make 2...what the hell, are we at a church carnival and the 8 year old is shooting and needs an extra shot?). Tell me that isn't a MAJOR difference that OFTEN decides the final outcome of the game.
And on and on and on.
Sure, the game uses a round ball and 94 feet of court and 10 foot rims. After that, the differences are many and as a result, the games are different. From 7 game playoff series to 1 game eliminations, from the 3 point line distance, the size of the key, zone defenses, 10 second line, 24 second vs 35 second shot clock, fouls for teams and players, periods vs halves, 40 minutes vs 48 minutes, advancing the ball to the front court, etc, etc.
College football also has minor rules differences from the pro game. Nitpicking instead of admitting that the games are still essentially the same is silly.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on April 15, 2011, 01:26:01 PM
They guard players in the NBA?
I understand why people wouldn't like the NBA, but that is an ignorant comment. The defense is so much better in the NBA and its not even close. There's a reason college stars can't score in the NBA. It's also amazing the talent from a shooting perspective. Watch Dan Gadzurich shoot threes before a game. He's one of the worse big men in the game and he nails 3 after 3. College teams may "play harder" but that's partly due to the length of the season and just more emphasis on the playoffs. People also complain about NBA officials, but look at the NCAA tourney. Would you rather have incompetent refs or refs that give star treatment? I would say its a wash.
3 myths to NBA basketball.
/rant
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on April 16, 2011, 12:49:08 PM
Chicos... The fact that you prefer college basketball is fine. However, what set this entire thread off was the outdated statement that they don't play defense in the NBA. The defense in the NBA is relentless. Sure, there are times during the long regular season that it falters in the first half of some games. But your initial statement was simply false.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on April 16, 2011, 10:21:36 PM
Chicos...the players aren't stupid. The season is 82 games long, over 100 if they are successful in the playoffs. If they went all out every minute of every game, they'd be dead.
You seem to be both disputing and validating Chico's point. If players can't go all-out every minute of every game, then by definition they aren't relentless.
I think you're completely accurate and make a fair point that players can't go all out for every minute of every game over the course of an 82 to 100+ game season.
But the result of those players pacing themselves is that is that many games wind up being exactly as Chicos described--"attrocious basketball for the first 3+ periods and then they start to play basketball at the end of the game and in the playoffs."
I thought this was a thread on J F'n B possibly going to the Bobcats? Need to retitle the thread
Quote from: Lighthouse 84 on April 17, 2011, 12:02:22 PM
I thought this was a thread on J F'n B possibly going to the Bobcats? Need to retitle the thread
The irony is that you added yet another topic not previously discussed to the thread.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on April 17, 2011, 11:34:08 AM
College football also has minor rules differences from the pro game. Nitpicking instead of admitting that the games are still essentially the same is silly.
Ah, that's the key...MINOR rule differences. The college football game and the pro football game are very close and just got even closer with the rules changes announced on Thursday.
The rules different in college and pro basketball are not minor at all. I couldn't have said it better myself, thanks for the assist....not nitpicking at all.
Quote from: Marquette84 on April 17, 2011, 11:55:47 AM
You seem to be both disputing and validating Chico's point. If players can't go all-out every minute of every game, then by definition they aren't relentless.
I think you're completely accurate and make a fair point that players can't go all out for every minute of every game over the course of an 82 to 100+ game season.
But the result of those players pacing themselves is that is that many games wind up being exactly as Chicos described--"attrocious basketball for the first 3+ periods and then they start to play basketball at the end of the game and in the playoffs."
Exactly...you see, it's "Relentless" when they decide to play it. LOL. It's RELENTLESS in the playoffs and in the 4th quarter of games, but as Sultan, Pakuni and others have stated....it would be crazy for them to play like that all the time. Which is exactly what I'm saying, they lolligag so much in their "pacing" and NON RELENTLESS play that it's a major turnoff.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on April 17, 2011, 01:15:36 PM
Ah, that's the key...MINOR rule differences. The college football game and the pro football game are very close and just got even closer with the rules changes announced on Thursday.
The rules different in college and pro basketball are not minor at all. I couldn't have said it better myself, thanks for the assist....not nitpicking at all.
Sorry, but you missed the point. Both have minor differences, but essentially football is football and basketball is basketball. If you're really arguing that college basketball is somehow "better" because of, say, a 10 second violation rather than an 8 second one (and other such nitpicking) is beyond silly.
This'll be shut in no time ::)
So, to try to get this back on topic...I personally think Butler would fit in great in Chicago. They have a vast need at the 2, somewhere Butler could play and excel at as a defender. They don't need points there, lord knows they don't get any from Bogans, so if he could just chip in 5-7 ppg and defend well he'd be good.
Any other thoughts on ideal fits? I think much of Wes' success came as much from his tenacity as it did the ideal situation in Utah. What other teams could help springboard Butler to similar success at the next level?
I hope Butler goes in the NBA draft, but it would not be surprising to have him on the outside looking in from a draft perspective. Not the worst thing in the world either, as he can pick a team that makes the most sense for his capabilities and a player needs.
Agree with Chico that the NBA game is mostly cruise fest until the 4th quarter. We don't even bother watching until the 4th quarter as the rest is silly. For hockey, the entire game the players are pushing hard, checking hard, and putting it all on the line. Football the same. You don't see that in the NBA, but you do in college hoops.
Count me as one that enjoys college basketball and the NBA, but finds the NBA game lacking until the playoffs or when they turn it up a notch at the end of a game. Completely agree with that perspective.
Quote from: brewcity77 on April 17, 2011, 01:45:44 PM
This'll be shut in no time ::)
So, to try to get this back on topic...I personally think Butler would fit in great in Chicago. They have a vast need at the 2, somewhere Butler could play and excel at as a defender. They don't need points there, lord knows they don't get any from Bogans, so if he could just chip in 5-7 ppg and defend well he'd be good.
Any other thoughts on ideal fits? I think much of Wes' success came as much from his tenacity as it did the ideal situation in Utah. What other teams could help springboard Butler to similar success at the next level?
Cleveland Cavs, Washington Wizards, Knicks, any number of teams that need bodies and players that care. Too many guys out there in the NBA going through the motions.
Quote from: Hoopaloop on April 17, 2011, 02:05:29 PM
I hope Butler goes in the NBA draft, but it would not be surprising to have him on the outside looking in from a draft perspective. Not the worst thing in the world either, as he can pick a team that makes the most sense for his capabilities and a player needs.
Agree with Chico that the NBA game is mostly cruise fest until the 4th quarter. We don't even bother watching until the 4th quarter as the rest is silly. For hockey, the entire game the players are pushing hard, checking hard, and putting it all on the line. Football the same. You don't see that in the NBA, but you do in college hoops.
Count me as one that enjoys college basketball and the NBA, but finds the NBA game lacking until the playoffs or when they turn it up a notch at the end of a game. Completely agree with that perspective.
Butler will get drafted - I'd put that at a 98% probability. Think he could be a late first, at worst mid-2nd round pick. He's too versatile, too good of defender, too efficent, and has too good of character/work ethic to not make it. Jimmy compares very favorably to Wes. Buzz will tell pro scouts as much. Teams won't snoozxe on Jimmy.
As far as NBA ball - yes they may not go all out every minute of every game - but the physicality of the NBA is far beyond college ball. Go to an NBA game, sit up close/courtside - and I think you'd see they play harder than a casual fan might think. I prefer college ball, but I've gone to some NBA games this year and sat within the first 4 rows - and it blew my mind how physical and hard they play..and it just gets stepped up in the 4th quarter of games..
So I took the advice of some of you guys and watch the Lakers game today...pathetic.
I think ESPN's writeup was perfect..."Kobe Bryant scored 34 points for the Lakers, who opened the postseason with the same halfhearted effort that comprised much of their regular season after three straight exhausting trips to the NBA finals."
Maybe they didn't realize it was the playoffs, but that same lolligagging nonsense that I've seen way too much apparently ESPN saw as well. Go figure.
;)
Quote from: Lennys Tap on April 17, 2011, 10:28:40 AM
Nothing infuriates you more? Really? Seriously? I don't think this would even register a minor blip on most people's "infuriation meter".
Yeah, probably having an assistant video coordinator hired from a team that has been associated with the college program for close to 40 years would be higher for some folks here on the infuriation meter...I missed that one.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on April 17, 2011, 06:17:01 PM
Yeah, probably having an assistant video coordinator hired from a team that has been associated with the college program for close to 40 years would be higher for some folks here on the infuriation meter...I missed that one.
Actually, Indiana U bribing an AAU basketball coach or director doesn't even make my top 200 list of most infurating things in the world. Paying $75 to watch NBA players mail it in doesn't make my top 10,000. Curious that such a trivial thing could cause you such outrage. Did world hunger at least finish second? :)
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on April 17, 2011, 06:15:48 PM
So I took the advice of some of you guys and watch the Lakers game today...pathetic.
I think ESPN's writeup was perfect..."Kobe Bryant scored 34 points for the Lakers, who opened the postseason with the same halfhearted effort that comprised much of their regular season after three straight exhausting trips to the NBA finals."
Maybe they didn't realize it was the playoffs, but that same lolligagging nonsense that I've seen way too much apparently ESPN saw as well. Go figure.
;)
Best part was Kobe's 'halfhearted effort' was still better than any NCAA player will accomplish in the NBA. Even better part is that Kobe's 'halfhearted effort' was so good, he didn't have to bother with playing in the NCAA.
Quote from: marqptm on April 17, 2011, 07:18:11 PM
Best part was Kobe's 'halfhearted effort' was still better than any NCAA player will accomplish in the NBA. Even better part is that Kobe's 'halfhearted effort' was so good, he didn't have to bother with playing in the NCAA.
Kobe didn't have a halfhearted effort, you might want to re-read the story. The Lakers did, not Kobe. That's what the comma is for after the "Lakers" in the sentence.
Secondly, you continue to make the same mistake others are making, but don't let me stop you. No one has said NCAA players are better than NBA...NO ONE, yet you and others keep going down this path as if that's the argument. Please, continue to have that argument with yourself because no one else is playing in that sandbox.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on April 17, 2011, 07:05:24 PM
Actually, Indiana U bribing an AAU basketball coach or director doesn't even make my top 200 list of most infuriating things in the world. Paying $75 to watch NBA players mail it in doesn't make my top 10,000. Curious that such a trivial thing could cause you such outrage. Did world hunger at least finish second? :)
Bernie Madoff's options fixing scheme ranks very high on the infuriation list for me. As does a lot of the BS that's played on Wall Street with derivatives, etc, that have put much of our economy on the brink. Care to weigh in on that discussion?
nm
Par for the course...another Chicos vs. the world thread. ::)
Turn on the Celtics v. Knicks and tell me the same thing CBB. Also, take in a few minutes of the OKC/Nugs game. Might change your mind.
Quote from: reinko on April 17, 2011, 08:34:52 PM
Turn on the Celtics v. Knicks and tell me the same thing CBB. Also, take in a few minutes of the OKC/Nugs game. Might change your mind.
Of course, it's the playoffs, this is "trying time" ;D
But I also saw the World Champion Lakers play today and ESPN came up with the same viewpoint I did..."half hearted". As did the LA Times already in their afternoon blog.
I'm sure the NBA is wonderful, I have no doubt there are people tossing their salads over it. No thanks, I'll stick to the NHL where they try EVERY GAME all season long in EVERY period, not just the playoffs. I prefer college hoops as well. Let me know who wins the dramatic NBA title...I wonder who the NBA scripts as the winner this year from the office of David Stern.
I don't hate the NBA, but I'm with Chicos. I'd take College Basketball any day of the week. By the way, I watched the Celtics/Knicks game. If you ask me, both teams suck. If they win the series, Boston's going to get worked by Miami. I think whoever wins the 2nd round matchup between the Bulls and (I still think) Magic is going to the Finals.
Also, Kobe had 34 and it's likely it was large reason they lost. His teammates can't stand playing with the horse's ass. Even his coach can't stand him. He has no concept of team basketball. The fact that he was named Finals MVP last year should seriously be investigated after the horrible series he had.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on April 17, 2011, 07:30:43 PM
Bernie Madoff's options fixing scheme ranks very high on the infuriation list for me. As does a lot of the BS that's played on Wall Street with derivatives, etc, that have put much of our economy on the brink. Care to weigh in on that discussion?
Sure. First, what do you mean by "Bernie Madoff's options fixing scheme"? Madoff ran your basic Ponzi scheme, reporting fictitious profits from fictitious trades. What that has to do with the trading options or fixing them escapes me. Second, the reason derivatives were able to play a part in the economic meltdown was because they were traded in back rooms, solely by and for the benefit of "big banks" (Goldman, Morgan, etc). With no transparent market to to reasonably assess, price and absorb the risks, the greedy and stupid banks were toast when the real estate market tanked.
This is not the first time you've asked me to "weigh in" on this subject, always with a smug and accusatory tone. You seem to want to suggest that because I spent years openly and honestly trading listed stock and index options on the CBOE that I'm somehow tainted by a thief like Madoff or the backroom machinations of a firm like Goldman Sachs. That would be as ignorant and bigoted as it is false.
There, he weighed in for you Chicos. Now, if you want to respond, do so with a PM and not on a thread about Butler's NBA draft prospects.
I would bet my house, my cars, my 401K, etc, etc that the Lakers win their next game and the free throw differential will be GIGANTIC. It will be 8 on 5 like you've never seen before. Any takers?
It might be a close game, but the NBA will make damn sure the Lakers will win. You don't see that in the NCAA....the refs aren't saying, we better make sure #1 Pitt gets by Butler, but we all know damn well there is NO WAY the Lakers lose on Wednesday night. Not going to happen. The breathing fouls on the Hornets will be funny to watch.
I hope I'm dead wrong, it would go a long way to winning back a fan of the NBA from decades ago, but I suspect it will be the same old NBA who will continue to make sure the right teams advance. Conspiracy? Yeah, probably. Is it real? Don't know, maybe Tim Donaghy, Steve Javie, Joey Crawford and the boys can comment.
http://deadspin.com/#!5392067/excerpts-from-the-book-the-nba-doesnt-want-you-to-read
Quote from: PuertoRicanNightmare on April 17, 2011, 08:59:58 PM
Also, Kobe had 34 and it's likely it was large reason they lost. His teammates can't stand playing with the horse's ass. Even his coach can't stand him. He has no concept of team basketball. The fact that he was named Finals MVP last year should seriously be investigated after the horrible series he had.
+100
Kobe is tremendously talented but has no idea how to actually play basketball. It kills me when people use him as an example of a guy who didn't need to play college basketball. As good as he is, he'd be even better having spent a year learning the game from Coach K.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on April 17, 2011, 01:15:36 PM
Ah, that's the key...MINOR rule differences. The college football game and the pro football game are very close and just got even closer with the rules changes announced on Thursday.
The rules different in college and pro basketball are not minor at all. I couldn't have said it better myself, thanks for the assist....not nitpicking at all.
Haha, this is a laughable statement. Here are a few of the "minor" rule differences between the NFL and NCAA football:
-Possession (1 ft vs 2 feet)
-Player downed (no contact vs contact)
-Different ball placement (hash marks)
-Different overtime rules
-Different penalties (most notably pass interference)
-Different timing (25 sec play clock vs 40 second, wait for ball to be "ready to play" vs no wait)
-PAT placement (3 yd line vs 2 yd line)
-Defensive PAT scoring (legal in college vs none in NFL)
-Different instant replay rules
-NCAA footballs have 2 white stripes
-College has no 2 minute warning
Quote from: jmayer1 on April 18, 2011, 09:32:27 AM
Haha, this is a laughable statement. Here are a few of the "minor" rule differences between the NFL and NCAA football:
-Possession (1 ft vs 2 feet)
-Player downed (no contact vs contact)
-Different ball placement (hash marks)
-Different overtime rules
-Different penalties (most notably pass interference)
-Different timing (25 sec play clock vs 40 second, wait for ball to be "ready to play" vs no wait)
-PAT placement (3 yd line vs 2 yd line)
-Defensive PAT scoring (legal in college vs none in NFL)
-Different instant replay rules
-NCAA footballs have 2 white stripes
-College has no 2 minute warning
Also:
- Pass interference is a spot-of-foul penalty in the NFL, a maximum of 15 yards in NCAA
- clock stopped in NCAA after first down, continues to run in the NFL
- turnover on missed FG spotted at spot of kick in NFL, line of scrimmage in college
- College defenses can return a blocked PAT/failed two-point attempt for two points. In the NFL, the ball is ruled dead after a failed PTA/two-point attempt.
Most of these differences are relatively minor, but then again, so are the differences between NCAA basketball and the NBA.
Basketball is basketball and football is football.
And pro football has a playoff system rather than a computer determining "championship" game participants.
But anyone who claims to like pro football better because there's a 2 minute warning or college basketball better because of a 35 second clock instead of a 24 second one is full of it. Most people's preferences come down to how much they have invested in a team.
The part of me that loves basketball acknowledges that the NBA is the superior product. It has the best players, the best coaches, the best officials - hands down. But I love Marquette way more than I love basketball and Marquette basketball is the face of Marquette University. I'd watch MU vs Centenary over Chicago vs Miami or Duke vs N Carolina. So by default I prefer (and follow) college basketball because it's where Marquette plays. It's not the best basketball. It's not even the best college basketball. I don't care.
Quote from: jmayer1 on April 18, 2011, 09:32:27 AM
Haha, this is a laughable statement. Here are a few of the "minor" rule differences between the NFL and NCAA football:
-Possession (1 ft vs 2 feet)
-Player downed (no contact vs contact)
-Different ball placement (hash marks)
-Different overtime rules
-Different penalties (most notably pass interference)
-Different timing (25 sec play clock vs 40 second, wait for ball to be "ready to play" vs no wait)
-PAT placement (3 yd line vs 2 yd line)
-Defensive PAT scoring (legal in college vs none in NFL)
-Different instant replay rules
-NCAA footballs have 2 white stripes
-College has no 2 minute warning
Yup, and most minor in nature. Really, the PAT placement....really? So the conversion in one is 99.7% and in the other is 99.6%...major difference. ::)
The overtime rules...cool, because so many games go to overtime. ::)
The play clock...you mean when teams aren't actually playing but waiting for the play to come in and both sides are in a huddle with no action on the field....keep going. ::)
I acknowledged the hash marks and PI rules change already in a prior post. On average how many PI calls per game in the NFL and in college....you might be interested to know that piece of information. ;)
The others, yeah I agree with but they are not at the level of the differences between college basketball and NBA basketball. I'd add a few more that I didn't the other day. Five second defensive turnover...in college ball you are rewarded for forcing a player to give up the ball if you play on him in 5 seconds...no such thing in pro..the guy can yo-yo it the whole time (thus encouraging less on the ball defense as a result).
I suspect most people recognize that college basketball differences from the NBA game are more stark than college football to the NFL.
Props to brew and hoopaloop for trying to get this back on topic. Unfortunately, it seems doomed to NBA trashing, and options discussion.
You know what that means...