Does anyone else feel really wrong about this?
I feel Kemba Walker and Shaka Smart should have won.
And yes, I realize that Jimmer was the only guy on his team. A team that beat NO ONE.
and Mike Brey's 2nd seeded ND fell apart in the tournament... Gee what a great coaching job!
crock.
Quote from: Hards_Alumni on April 01, 2011, 12:03:16 PM
Does anyone else feel really wrong about this?
I feel Kemba Walker and Shaka Smart should have won.
And yes, I realize that Jimmer was the only guy on his team. A team that beat NO ONE.
and Mike Brey's 2nd seeded ND fell apart in the tournament... Gee what a great coaching job!
crock.
I'm pretty sure they vote on this before the tournament, like most sports awards.
Quote from: Hards_Alumni on April 01, 2011, 12:03:16 PM
Does anyone else feel really wrong about this?
I feel Kemba Walker and Shaka Smart should have won.
And yes, I realize that Jimmer was the only guy on his team. A team that beat NO ONE.
and Mike Brey's 2nd seeded ND fell apart in the tournament... Gee what a great coaching job!
crock.
The awards are based on the regular season. I think Kemba would have been the better choice but Jimmer is right there.
Shaka Smart didn't deserve a single vote based on VCU's regular season. I can't really argue with the selection of Brey, although I think Stever Fischer would have been my choice.
Jimmer Fredette can't play defense. I'm still surprised that so many people liked him as a player.
Coach Brey? ND had a good season, but I don't think he deserves CoY honors for it after getting curb-stomped by Florida State in the tourney.
I also disagree. I'd put Jimmer 3rd, behind Kemba and Nolan Smith.
I'd put Brey 344th, behind everyone except Bo.
Yeah pretty sure they don't take the tournament into consideration. As for Kemba think it would be hard for him to win AP POY when he didn't win Big East POY. Anyone know if a player has won AP POY without winning their conference POY?
Quote from: Ant on April 01, 2011, 12:14:18 PM
Yeah pretty sure they don't take the tournament into consideration. As for Kemba think it would be hard for him to win AP POY when he didn't win Big East POY. Anyone know if a player has won AP POY without winning their conference POY?
He didn't win the AP award but in the 02-03 season, TJ Ford was Wooden, Naismith and many other national player of the year awards, but Nick Collinson was Big 12 player of the year.
http://www.naismithawards.com/PastWinners/NaismithWinnersCollegePlayers/tabid/157/Default.aspx (http://www.naismithawards.com/PastWinners/NaismithWinnersCollegePlayers/tabid/157/Default.aspx)
http://www.woodenaward.com/?page_id=80 (http://www.woodenaward.com/?page_id=80)
http://www.big12sports.com/ViewArticle.dbml?SPSID=106110&SPID=13134&DB_OEM_ID=10410&ATCLID=1518598 (http://www.big12sports.com/ViewArticle.dbml?SPSID=106110&SPID=13134&DB_OEM_ID=10410&ATCLID=1518598)
Brey is the surprise.
ND had a very good year but it wasn't elite by any stretch of the imagination.
Quote from: The Golden Avalanche on April 01, 2011, 12:38:25 PM
Brey is the surprise.
ND had a very good year but it wasn't elite by any stretch of the imagination.
Really? You must have a very, very, very narrow defnition of elite then.
2 seed
2nd in the BE
#9 RPI
#15 KenPom
#13 Sagarin
#5 final AP Poll
#4 last Coaches Poll
I'd have gone with Jared Sullinger for POY. Best player on best team.
Was there a player who had a bigger impact on college basketball this season, both on and off court, than Jimmer Fredette? Was there a player who had a bigger impact on his team?
Duke is still a tournament team without Smith. Same for OSU without Sullinger. Perhaps even UConn without Walker. But does BYU win even 18 games without Fredette?
Quote from: jmayer1 on April 01, 2011, 12:11:02 PM
The awards are based on the regular season. I think Kemba would have been the better choice but Jimmer is right there.
Shaka Smart didn't deserve a single vote based on VCU's regular season. I can't really argue with the selection of Brey, although I think Stever Fischer would have been my choice.
Fischer? SDSU, while a nice story, was the most overrated team in the country this year. Their best regular season win was over Gonzaga and they got beat twice by the only good team they played all year, BYU. Sure they beat BYU in the MWC tourney, but that was after Davies was suspended. They were more or less exposed in the tourney barely beating a decent Temple team and then losing to the fighting Kembas.
It seems strange to me that PoY and CoY are voted on before basketball games are done. I would rather they be voted on once you can see the entire body of work.
How can someone be the best player or coach of that entire year before the basketball games are over? It's a strange way to do it.
Quote from: Skatastrophy on April 01, 2011, 01:44:21 PM
It seems strange to me that PoY and CoY are voted on before basketball games are done. I would rather they be voted on once you can see the entire body of work.
How can someone be the best player or coach of that entire year before the basketball games are over? It's a strange way to do it.
Aren't all-conference teams announced during/before conference tournaments? Isn't the Heisman awarded before bowl season? NFL, NBA, MLB, and NHL awards are all announced and/or voted upon before the playoffs end.
These awards clearly are intended to recognize regular season achievement. There are separate awards for postseason achievement.
Quote from: Pakuni on April 01, 2011, 01:53:35 PM
Aren't all-conference teams announced during/before conference tournaments?
Conference team honors are denoted as such in the name.
These awards aren't called Player of the Regular Season or Coach of the Regular Season.
With regards to the Heismann being awarded before Bowl Season: There's 1 game left in the season before bowl games start. That's very close to being able to see the entire body of work for every team in the league. That makes a lot more sense than leaving over 100 basketball games left to play for NCAABB.
NFL, NBA, MLB and NHL - I have no clue, I don't really watch.
Quote from: Hards_Alumni on April 01, 2011, 12:03:16 PM
Does anyone else feel really wrong about this?
I feel Kemba Walker and Shaka Smart should have won.
Shaka Smart? His VCU team was 4th in the CAA, that's a joke. They didn't deserve to make the NCAA Tournament much less get COY. And no, they STILL don't deserve to be in. Despite the amazing run, at-larges are based on regular season body of work. And VCU's was very weak. Smart isn't remotely in the COY discussion.
edit: fixed quote
Quote from: brewcity77 on April 01, 2011, 02:22:54 PM
Quote from: Hards_Alumni on April 01, 2011, 12:03:16 PM
Does anyone else feel really wrong about this?
I feel Kemba Walker and Shaka Smart should have won.
Shaka Smart? His VCU team was 4th in the CAA, that's a joke. They didn't deserve to make the NCAA Tournament much less get COY. And no, they STILL don't deserve to be in. Despite the amazing run, at-larges are based on regular season body of work. And VCU's was very weak. Smart isn't remotely in the COY discussion.
He COACHED his team to the final four.
Mike Brey still has been to the sweet sixteen once.
IMO, its not about who has the better regular season, its about who coaches when it COUNTS.
edit: fixed quote
Quote from: Skatastrophy on April 01, 2011, 02:01:59 PM
Conference team honors are denoted as such in the name.
Isn''t "conference" also part of "conference" tournament? I don't believe they're named to the Regular Season All-Conference Team.
QuoteWith regards to the Heismann being awarded before Bowl Season: There's 1 game left in the season before bowl games start. That's very close to being able to see the entire body of work for every team in the league. That makes a lot more sense than leaving over 100 basketball games left to play for NCAABB.
Well, you can't say there's only one game (per team, I presume) left before bowl season, but more than 100 left to play in the basketball tournament. Not exactly consistent when for half the tournament teams, there's also only one game left. For a large majority, there are only two. Two games in a 35+ game basketball season isn't any more significant than one game in a 12-game football season.
Regardless, the awards always have been for the regular season.
Quote from: Skatastrophy on April 01, 2011, 02:01:59 PM
Conference team honors are denoted as such in the name.
These awards aren't called Player of the Regular Season or Coach of the Regular Season.
With regards to the Heismann being awarded before Bowl Season: There's 1 game left in the season before bowl games start. That's very close to being able to see the entire body of work for every team in the league. That makes a lot more sense than leaving over 100 basketball games left to play for NCAABB.
NFL, NBA, MLB and NHL - I have no clue, I don't really watch.
Agree with what Pakuni said above about this post. Also, you're really OK with the Heisman being awarded before bowl season but no other sports doing that? So you were OK with Reggie Bush getting the Heisman over Vince Young, even though Reggie Bush fumbled the BCS Championship away and Vince Young single handedly beat USC? Who also had another Heisman winner on that team.
Quote from: wadesworld on April 01, 2011, 02:48:49 PM
Agree with what Pakuni said above about this post. Also, you're really OK with the Heisman being awarded before bowl season but no other sports doing that? So you were OK with Reggie Bush getting the Heisman over Vince Young, even though Reggie Bush fumbled the BCS Championship away and Vince Young single handedly beat USC? Who also had another Heisman winner on that team.
I'm not okay with it. It's just closer to ideal than handing out awards when some NCAA teams have 5 games left.
Quote from: Pakuni on April 01, 2011, 02:39:22 PM
Isn''t "conference" also part of "confere
Do they really hand out the awards before the conference tourney is over? That's BS too.
Quote from: jmayer1 on April 01, 2011, 01:06:31 PM
Really? You must have a very, very, very narrow defnition of elite then.
2 seed
2nd in the BE
#9 RPI
#15 KenPom
#13 Sagarin
#5 final AP Poll
#4 last Coaches Poll
I don't think my definition is narrow at all.
Did they win the Big East conference? How was their showing in the Big East Tournament? How was their NCAA Tournament achievement relative to those numbers listed above?
They won a mickey mouse tournament in November. Shouldn't COY actually win something meaningful? There are 4-5 teams every season who have numbers like the above that don't win squat and their coaches aren't recognized as the best in the nation.
Seems a low bar for me.
Quote from: The Golden Avalanche on April 01, 2011, 03:10:34 PM
I don't think my definition is narrow at all.
Did they win the Big East conference? How was their showing in the Big East Tournament? How was their NCAA Tournament achievement relative to those numbers listed above?
They won a mickey mouse tournament in November. Shouldn't COY actually win something meaningful? There are 4-5 teams every season who have numbers like the above that don't win squat and their coaches aren't recognized as the best in the nation.
Seems a low bar for me.
Rightly or wrongly, coaches get credit when their teams are perceived to have overachieved. Notre Dame opened the season unranked and projected to finish ninth in the conference. They performed well above those expectations, and did it with a roster that lacks any surefire NBA players.
If the Big East Tournament and NCAA Tournament are taken into consideration, it should be Kemba hands down I think. If the NCAA isn't taken into consideration then I could see why he wouldn't win it.
Quote from: The Golden Avalanche on April 01, 2011, 03:10:34 PM
I don't think my definition is narrow at all.
Did they win the Big East conference? How was their showing in the Big East Tournament? How was their NCAA Tournament achievement relative to those numbers listed above?
They won a mickey mouse tournament in November. Shouldn't COY actually win something meaningful? There are 4-5 teams every season who have numbers like the above that don't win squat and their coaches aren't recognized as the best in the nation.
Seems a low bar for me.
As stated numerous times before, the NCAA tournament
does not matter in this voting as it is conducted prior to the start of the tourney. Please tell me who you think would have been a better selection. I don't think Brey was necessarily the best choice, but he was a very good choice and certainly not a horrible choice as you seem to think. He took a team that wasn't expected to do much and had them contending for a title in the toughest conference in America and vying for a a #1 seed.
Quote from: jmayer1 on April 01, 2011, 04:12:27 PM
As stated numerous times before, the NCAA tournament does not matter in this voting as it is conducted prior to the start of the tourney. Please tell me who you think would have been a better selection. I don't think Brey was necessarily the best choice, but he was a very good choice and certainly not a horrible choice as you seem to think. He took a team that wasn't expected to do much and had them contending for a title in the toughest conference in America and vying for a a #1 seed.
So they don't count the NCAA Tournament? Well, any award that excludes the most important factor of who is a quality coach seems suspect. We're not giving Buzz $2.3m for his stellar 9-9 conference record. We're giving it to him because he coached up a mediocre squad to an Sweet Sixteen berth.
I never called Brey a "horrible" choice. That was you adding drama to my opinion. My opinion is that regardless of winning 27 games, Notre Dame didn't win squat where it counts -- banners. I don't call coaches or teams "elite" unless they win something or achieve something that matters (e.g. UConn making it to the Final Four this season).
If the requirement is low, shouldn't Tom Crean have been hands down COY in 2003? A team not expected to do much goes out and wins a top 6 conference with an All-American on the roster -- did he even get one vote?
As for this year, you could throw any number of Matta, Rose, Fisher, or Dixon in a pot and I see them as equal or above Brey in terms of readiness to win COY.
Quote from: The Golden Avalanche on April 01, 2011, 04:56:01 PM
So they don't count the NCAA Tournament? Well, any award that excludes the most important factor of who is a quality coach seems suspect. We're not giving Buzz $2.3m for his stellar 9-9 conference record. We're giving it to him because he coached up a mediocre squad to an Sweet Sixteen berth.
I never called Brey a "horrible" choice. That was you adding drama to my opinion. My opinion is that regardless of winning 27 games, Notre Dame didn't win squat where it counts -- banners. I don't call coaches or teams "elite" unless they win something or achieve something that matters (e.g. UConn making it to the Final Four this season).
If the requirement is low, shouldn't Tom Crean have been hands down COY in 2003? A team not expected to do much goes out and wins a top 6 conference with an All-American on the roster -- did he even get one vote?
As for this year, you could throw any number of Matta, Rose, Fisher, or Dixon in a pot and I see them as equal or above Brey in terms of readiness to win COY.
Is every Coach of the Year and MVP award in the NBA, NFL, MLB, NHL, CBB, and CFB suspect? I'm not aware of any award that isn't based on the regular season.
Sorry if I exagerrated your comment.
TC did win a number of coach of the year awards in 2003. That MU team wasn't expected to do much? Not sure about that, they did finish 2nd place in CUSA the year before, was returning everyone aside from Henry, and adding RJax.
So, UConn is elite even though they finished 5 games behind ND in the regular season due to their tourney success but Pitt is elite because they finished 1 game ahead of ND in the regular season, despite not winning any games in the BET and only 1 in the NCAA? Any way you want to slice it, ND was one of the elite teams in the nation this year, whether you like it or not. You don't contend for a #1 seed in the NCAA tourney without being an elite team.
I agree with your last point for the most part. Brey is right there with a number of other coaches and there are quite a few guys who could have got it, but I can't fault anybody for picking Brey; he was the coach of an elite team that many people think overachieved.
Whether the award is suspect or not, is not the issue IMO. Fredette won POY and Brey won COY, given the standards of the award: based on regular season performance. You can argue that it's stupid award or the criteria should be changed, but I think what most are asking is does Brey deserve COY and Fredette POY FOR THE REGULAR SEASON?
Quote from: Skatastrophy on April 01, 2011, 12:11:08 PM
Jimmer Fredette can't play defense. I'm still surprised that so many people liked him as a player.
Kemba Walker, Nolan Smith or Jared Sullinger are all better players and would have been worthy choices. Unfortunately, Jimmer is a white guy with a fun name who scores a bunch of points. What's not to like?
As much as I dislike ND, I'm fine with Brey as COY. Hansbrough as BE POY over Walker was a joke though...but again, he's white guy who scores a bunch of points.
I'm not saying, I'm just saying...
Quote from: romey on April 02, 2011, 08:55:20 AM
Whether the award is suspect or not, is not the issue IMO. Fredette won POY and Brey won COY, given the standards of the award: based on regular season performance. You can argue that it's stupid award or the criteria should be changed, but I think what most are asking is does Brey deserve COY and Fredette POY FOR THE REGULAR SEASON?
Exactly right. Brey isn't the only legitimate nominee, but he did a heck of a lot with a heck of a little. ND was supposed to be a bubble team, they ended up in the discussion for a #1 seed into Selection Sunday.
No one has to like the criteria, but knocking the selection because of things that happened after the votes were already cast is simply inane.
Quote from: jmayer1 on April 01, 2011, 06:34:04 PM
Is every Coach of the Year and MVP award in the NBA, NFL, MLB, NHL, CBB, and CFB suspect? I'm not aware of any award that isn't based on the regular season.
Sorry if I exagerrated your comment.
TC did win a number of coach of the year awards in 2003. That MU team wasn't expected to do much? Not sure about that, they did finish 2nd place in CUSA the year before, was returning everyone aside from Henry, and adding RJax.
So, UConn is elite even though they finished 5 games behind ND in the regular season due to their tourney success but Pitt is elite because they finished 1 game ahead of ND in the regular season, despite not winning any games in the BET and only 1 in the NCAA? Any way you want to slice it, ND was one of the elite teams in the nation this year, whether you like it or not. You don't contend for a #1 seed in the NCAA tourney without being an elite team.
I agree with your last point for the most part. Brey is right there with a number of other coaches and there are quite a few guys who could have got it, but I can't fault anybody for picking Brey; he was the coach of an elite team that many people think overachieved.
Yes, I do see the majority of those awards as suspect. It's all politics.
TC might have gotten regional awards here and there but was he ever a factor for the major award from the AP like Brey received? Certainly based on Crean's regular season in 2003, with a bar this low, he should have been the winner but my guess is Tubby Smith swept all (which again shows the ludicrous nature of these awards as Tubby got swindled by Crean when it counted). Hell, Keno Davis won one of these things. :-[
Pitt is elite because they won the best conference in the country over a three month span. UConn is elite because they're in the midst of accomplishing something ridiculous -- sweeping their entire post-season. Butler is elite because Stevens has back-to-back Final Four appearances after winning his conference. Banners and major achievements make "elite" teams in my mind.
It's my opinion there were only three "elite" teams in the sport this year -- OSU, Duke, Kansas. After that, there were 15 squads that were very good and then 40 squads that were indistinguishable from each other. That's why I think any number of four, five, six guys could have won it and in the end politics gave it to the good guy who hasn't won much in the past. No harm in that.
A little time and a lot of wins wash away the scandal. In the offseason we tracked reports/rumors of Brey being maybe fired, suspended, or having to go to confession over a public rumor of an affair.....
a year later, Brey is Coach of the year .
The confessional priest must have ordered 10 hail marys and 27 wins this season....and you are forgiven,my son.
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on April 02, 2011, 09:07:15 AM
Kemba Walker, Nolan Smith or Jared Sullinger are all better players and would have been worthy choices. Unfortunately, Jimmer is a white guy with a fun name who scores a bunch of points. What's not to like?
As much as I dislike ND, I'm fine with Brey as COY. Hansbrough as BE POY over Walker was a joke though...but again, he's white guy who scores a bunch of points.
I'm not saying, I'm just saying...
Oh, please.
Fredette averaged 5 points more per game than Kemba, shot better from the field, shot better from behind the arc and, as much as Walker carried UConn this year, Fredette carried BYU even more.
You've got a very fair argument for Walker over Hansbrough, but not over Fredette. Jimmer had a better season.
And the award is intended for the player who had the best season; not the best player and not the best pro prospect.
Quote from: Pakuni on April 02, 2011, 10:22:14 AM
Oh, please.
Fredette averaged 5 points more per game than Kemba, shot better from the field, shot better from behind the arc and, as much as Walker carried UConn this year, Fredette carried BYU even more.
You've got a very fair argument for Walker over Hansbrough, but not over Fredette. Jimmer had a better season.
And the award is intended for the player who had the best season; not the best player and not the best pro prospect.
Walker averaged more assists, more rebounds, more steals and turned the ball over significantly less than Jimmer. Jimmer is a chucker and I, personally, have never been particularly impressed with his game. If Buzz allowed DJO to chuck it 20-25 per game, he'd average a bunch of points too.
Even if you don't think Walker was better, what about Smith and Sullinger? They have much more impressive overall numbers than Jimmer.
Walker played in the BEAST. You put Walker in Jimmer's conference and he goes for 40 a game.
What a terrible argument from a usually level headed poster.