Quote from: Pakuni on March 12, 2011, 09:48:17 AM
Two point guards in the same class doesn't make a ton of sense, especially when there's a bigger need at the four. I actually feel a little more comfortable with the Cadougan/Wilson combo, and perhaps Vander and even Singleton in a pinch, than Crowder/E. Williams at the four ... then Williams only the year after that. Or are you thinking that Jamil is an option at the four?
If the best player available is by far a point, then by all means take him. But don't try to load up on points in one class at the expense of position that are of equal, of not greater, need.
That said, I'd guess Buzz and staff have been tracking the progress of Derrick Wilson this season and have an idea by now whether he can be counted on next year. And that would likely play a part in where the final scholie goes, if it goes to anyone. Banking it might not be the worst option,
I'm trying to put myself in Buzz's mindset. Granted, DJO is clearly a SG, Jae plays the 4, but it seems like he divides guys into three categories: point guards, centers, and switchables. Basically, only the 1 and 5 are really defined positions, while the 2-4 are pretty interchangeable. Because there's obviously a difference between a DJO and a Crowder, I'll split up big and little switchables.
Point Guards: Junior Cadougan, Derrick Wilson
Little Switchables: Vander Blue, Todd Mayo, DJO, Jamail Jones
Big Switchables: Jae Crowder, Erik Williams, Jamil Wilson, Juan Anderson
Centers: Davante Gardner, Chris Otule
Clearly, the need is for either a point guard or a big. Again, I'm trying to think like Buzz, so here's what I have learned in three years as Marquette's head coach.
In my first year, my team was 23-4 and contending for the conference title when my starting point guard went down with injury. We went 2-6 the rest of the way. We had one contributing big, who helped a lot on defense, but wasn't the key to us winning. Had James stayed healthy, my team likely would have won at least three more games (Louisville, Syracuse, 'Nova), earned a much better seed, and likely been playing into the second weekend.
In my second year, my team struggled to find consistency, but once they did, were very good, at one point winning 11 of 13. The team had no contributing bigs, but had two senior point guards, including one that I brought back after initially (maybe) nudging him out of the program. Even without bigs, we finished well ahead of expectations.
In my third year, I had my best ever big combination, with two contributors. However, I had one natural point guard that came off the bench and a converted shooting guard starting. Despite constantly improving play up front, the team never found consistency. After a four-game and three-game winning streak against cupcakes in the non-conference, they didn't win three games in a row again from December 11 until February 27. So despite the play of my bigs improving markedly over my first two seasons, the lack of equivalent point guard play meant that my team never really settled.
Of course it's not that simple, there's more to it, but going into next year, we have two experienced bigs as well as two other players in Crowder and Williams that can sub in up front in a pinch. At the point, there are only two natural points and one has never played a minute of D1 basketball. Clearly DJO isn't the kind of guy that can switch to the 1. Mayo's scouting reports indicate he played best when he could emulate a DJO role. Vander could help, but again, he seems to be more of a natural 2. The only other guy mentioned is Jamil Wilson, but it seems he'll be needed more up front with the graduation of Jimmy Butler.
What if Cadougan takes another injury? Can Buzz afford to go into a season with only one backup to Cadougan, who has never played D1 basketball, and trusting that Vander Blue and Jamil Wilson, neither of whom has had to play that role at the D1 level, will be able to take that role if necessary? I sure as hell wouldn't take that chance. We need another point guard, even if it's a sophomore or junior JUCO transfer, just to give ourselves options in case of injury. I understand Marquette's fascination with the big man, but with guys like Jarnell Stokes, Phillip Nolan, and Shaquille Cleare all considering Marquette for 2012, there's simply no reason to go after some 2-star prospect who almost assuredly won't contribute when we'll have a sophomore and junior on the roster for next season. It just doesn't make sense.
Very good analysis Brew. Think you make a great case for using the last 2011 schollie on a PG. Sounds as though Derrick Wilson has GREAT character, and recruiting another PG probably would not alienate the relationship between Derrick and MU. But, this too needs to be considered.
Think the key thought in Pakuni's post was: Do Buzz and staff feel extremely confident that Wilson can come in next year and be a viable back-up, or even spot starter if Junior got hurt? Which brings me to my last point: Buzz and staff should only take another PG for 2011 if they are extremely confident that said player is significantly better or has much more upside than Derrick Wilson. I doubt they will find that unless in the form of a transfer...
In my opinion, the greatest need is an outstanding 3 point shooter in the mold of a Steve Novak. Outside shooting has hurt us this year, and I'm not sure we've solved that problem with anyone on the roster.
I would pass on a point guard--the good ones are gone for the most part, and we've already got two scholarships tied up at the point. Unless you can get a top 25-50 rated player who you expect to start from day one, hold off until next year. I'd much rather Buzz start start recruiting for a post-Cadougan team. Ideally a top 25-50 player NEXT year, who can backup Cadougan for a year, and clearly run the show for the next 3 years. A player good enough to meet our needs isn't going to be willing to sit for 2 years. Look at Villanova's point guard transition.
Quote from: Marquette84 on March 12, 2011, 11:46:00 AM
In my opinion, the greatest need is an outstanding 3 point shooter in the mold of a Steve Novak. Outside shooting has hurt us this year, and I'm not sure we've solved that problem with anyone on the roster.
I would pass on a point guard--the good ones are gone for the most part, and we've already got two scholarships tied up at the point. Unless you can get a top 25-50 rated player who you expect to start from day one, hold off until next year. I'd much rather Buzz start start recruiting for a post-Cadougan team. Ideally a top 25-50 player NEXT year, who can backup Cadougan for a year, and clearly run the show for the next 3 years. A player good enough to meet our needs isn't going to be willing to sit for 2 years. Look at Villanova's point guard transition.
Likewise, a player good enough to meet our needs probably isn't going to sign with a school that already has a commitment from a point guard in his class.
Quote from: Ners on March 12, 2011, 08:31:41 AM
I'm not going to lie...I find it weird how you frequently come to Chicos defense. He is a grown man after all, pretty sure he can fend for himself. Even more weird, that you defend a dude with an anti Buzz agenda...assuming you are an MU fan? Or are you too just a Tom Crean lackey and thus why you defend Chicos?
In general, I would enjoy this board much more if the personal attacks were to stop and the focus would be on MU b-ball. That doesn't mean no disagreements - disagreements are interesting! But the disagreements and attacks should be against posters' arguments and positions and logic, not against them personally.
And I'd like peace in the middle ease, too. ::)
Quote from: Ners on March 12, 2011, 08:31:41 AM
I'm not going to lie...I find it weird how you frequently come to Chicos defense. He is a grown man after all, pretty sure he can fend for himself. Even more weird, that you defend a dude with an anti Buzz agenda...assuming you are an MU fan? Or are you too just a Tom Crean lackey and thus why you defend Chicos?
Maybe he knows I don't have an anti-Buzz agenda. I find it weird that you keep attacking anyone that dares agree with me on an issue, or worse calls you out on the obsession.
Let it go. Seriously, I'm worried about your health...let it go.
Glad we are going the HS route...hope this becomes the norm. It's the proper way to build a program and will provide more stability in the long run.
I hear the voiced need for a PG, but don't understand it.
I mean, we HAD a PG in Reggie Smith. He left presumably over playing time (if that was the true reason) but he didn't see a future for him at PG here...so why would you go out and get another PG when you have Derrick coming in?
I think Todd can handle the rock in the same vein as Buycks and Jamil can be a point forward.
I'd would support more of a PF/C.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 12, 2011, 12:30:07 PMMaybe he knows I don't have an anti-Buzz agenda. I find it weird that you keep attacking anyone that dares agree with me on an issue, or worse calls you out on the obsession.
Let it go. Seriously, I'm worried about your health...let it go.
Glad we are going the HS route...hope this becomes the norm. It's the proper way to build a program and will provide more stability in the long run.
Just a curiosity question for you, Chicos. How do you feel about 3-year JUCOs like DJO and Butler? Buzz has obviously had much better luck than most coaches do recruiting JUCOs, and while they aren't here for four years, I'd certainly say that they've been as valuable to our program as most four-year guys are. DJO contributed starter minutes as a sophomore and junior, and will presumably do the same next year. Butler has been one of our best players the past two years after being a key player off the bench in his first year. How would you feel about Buzz looking at someone like TJ Taylor who was a 4-star prospect at the point but never suited up for Oklahoma before going JUCO? If we could get 3 years out of him, would it be worth it as opposed to trying to grab a 2-star freshman this late in the game, considering Buzz's track record?
Quote from: Marquette84 on March 12, 2011, 11:46:00 AM
In my opinion, the greatest need is an outstanding 3 point shooter in the mold of a Steve Novak. Outside shooting has hurt us this year, and I'm not sure we've solved that problem with anyone on the roster.
That would open up a lot of things for us. I believe we need another PG as well. Dangerously thin, even with Wilson coming in.
Quote from: Marquette84 on March 12, 2011, 11:46:00 AM
In my opinion, the greatest need is an outstanding 3 point shooter in the mold of a Steve Novak.
Um, well, easier said than done. There aren't a ton of guys that can shoot like that.
Quote from: brewcity77 on March 12, 2011, 12:59:21 PM
Just a curiosity question for you, Chicos. How do you feel about 3-year JUCOs like DJO and Butler? Buzz has obviously had much better luck than most coaches do recruiting JUCOs, and while they aren't here for four years, I'd certainly say that they've been as valuable to our program as most four-year guys are. DJO contributed starter minutes as a sophomore and junior, and will presumably do the same next year. Butler has been one of our best players the past two years after being a key player off the bench in his first year. How would you feel about Buzz looking at someone like TJ Taylor who was a 4-star prospect at the point but never suited up for Oklahoma before going JUCO? If we could get 3 years out of him, would it be worth it as opposed to trying to grab a 2-star freshman this late in the game, considering Buzz's track record?
I certainly prefer 3 year JUCO to a 2 year JUCO. I prefer 4 year players to 2 and 3 years
Quote from: buckchuckler on March 12, 2011, 01:05:51 PM
Um, well, easier said than done. There aren't a ton of guys that can shoot like that.
No, but if you look at MU's team, Buzz could make a a very effective case that such a player would have a big role on next year's team because he would be the only one with that particular skill.
What would be his argument to a point prospect? "If Junior goes down, Derrick can't cut it, and Dave isn't the answer, I need to have another point on the roster, just in case." I'm not sure I would want any player that would buy such an argument. Frankly, if thats what we're down to, we might as well let DJO bring up the ball.
Quote from: KC2016 on March 12, 2011, 08:34:06 AM
I think it's great he has a WV tattoo on his arm so long as he's wearing a MU uniform. Just a little salt in the recruiting wound. Only way to make it better is if he has a leprechaun on the other arm!
I believe the tat just says WV, and not WVU, and that he grew up in West va. so it is no big deal.
And if it becomes an issue, he can always call Angelina Jolie for the name of her remover--she had Billy Bob Thorntons named tatooed until she hooked up with Brad Pitt.
My feeling is that if we are getting a PG, it would be better to go JUCO. Then you have someone with experience versus two freshmen.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on March 12, 2011, 03:00:18 PM
My feeling is that if we are getting a PG, it would be better to go JUCO. Then you have someone with experience versus two freshmen.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fRP-5FAfAaQ
Quote from: willie warrior on March 12, 2011, 01:20:00 PM
I believe the tat just says WV, and not WVU, and that he grew up in West va. so it is no big deal.
And if it becomes an issue, he can always call Angelina Jolie for the name of her remover--she had Billy Bob Thorntons named tatooed until she hooked up with Brad Pitt.
If you can get her number, I'll call her for him. ;)
Also, one of the scouting reports on Juan Anderson said that he can play the point. It sounds like he'd be a good option in a pinch.
Quote from: Jamil_toMU10 on March 12, 2011, 03:17:59 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fRP-5FAfAaQ
That kid has some sweet handles, but he carries the ball constantly and looks like he's about 5'5 and 120 pounds.
I'm not sure how much MU is on his list anyway. I have only us mentioned with him in passing.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on March 12, 2011, 03:00:18 PM
My feeling is that if we are getting a PG, it would be better to go JUCO. Then you have someone with experience versus two freshmen.
This would be even worse than recruiting a 4-year player.
We'd would have 4 point guards:
A junior (Cadougan) graduating in 2013
Another junior (JUCO) graduating in 2013
A Freshman that can't be considered a capable backup if you think we need another.
A walk-on Sophomore we don't think is a capable backup
Now fast forward to 2012-13. What do we do?
--Hope that Wilson develops enough to be our starter by the time he's a junior? Problem is, behind Cadougan and the JUCO, he'll get no opportunity to prove himself. He'll be 3rd on the depth chart.
--To be safe, we'd probably want the heir apparent to Cadougan to be his primary backup in 2012-13. Is that Wilson? Then what do we do with our now-senior JUCO PG? And what if the JUCO is still better than Wilson?
--Or do we have to bring in a HS player in 2012-13 to understudy for a year to take over the starting role in 2013-14 when Cadougan is gone? What do we do with the JUCO and WIlson? How does one justify 4 scholarships on PGs?
--Or do we wait until 2013-14 and recruit a 4- or 5-star HS point on taking over as our starting PG from day 1?
If Wilson and Cadougan aren't the answer at point next year, we've screwed up. We should be aiming to bring in a 4- or 5-star player as a frosh when his predecessor is going to be a senior. And we should be building a pipeline 3-4 years out with similar talent so that we can reload every time one of those two graduates.
Quote from: Marquette84 on March 12, 2011, 05:32:27 PMThis would be even worse than recruiting a 4-year player.
Unless TJ Taylor is available. I'm not sure how his recruitment will work, but he should be eligible as a JUCO sophomore transfer, similar to Butler and DJO. If he can transfer after this year, he could come in next year as a sophomore, giving us a junior, sophomore, and freshman point next year.
But I'm not positive he will be available as a 2011 recruit, he may need to be a 2012 because he committed to Oklahoma (though never played there).
I want cezar guererro
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 12, 2011, 01:08:56 PM
I certainly prefer 3 year JUCO to a 2 year JUCO. I prefer 4 year players to 2 and 3 years
So if a "5 star one and done" chose MU, you would take a pass on him and choose a 3 or 4 star that would play 4 years? Just wondering.
Quote from: Marquette84 on March 12, 2011, 05:32:27 PM
This would be even worse than recruiting a 4-year player.
These are valid points. However, if the main concern is *next* year, then a JUCO is better. I tend to think that three years out gives plenty of time to recruit yet another PG that could take over if DWil isn't a legit option.
I really like the similarities of Todd and Lazar coming in from Notre Dame Prep.
-Both teams were in the prep championship and played MUCH tougher competition than any high school.
-Both led* their teams in scoring despite having a top 10 recruit on their team. (*Assumed by Mayo's 23 PPG)
I am super impressed that he put up such good stats on an incredible team with loads of talent.
Hopefully, Mayo can also outshine Ledo, as Lazar ended up much better than Paul Harris IMO.
Quote from: Marquette84 on March 12, 2011, 05:32:27 PM
This would be even worse than recruiting a 4-year player.
We'd would have 4 point guards:
A junior (Cadougan) graduating in 2013
Another junior (JUCO) graduating in 2013
A Freshman that can't be considered a capable backup if you think we need another.
A walk-on Sophomore we don't think is a capable backup
Who is this "we" you speak of. Has there been someone who has been at practice all year that has been commenting on his play? I have no idea if he is capable or not. I suspect no one else on this board does either.
Anyone know how d Wilson has performed this year?
Quote from: Marquette84 on March 12, 2011, 05:32:27 PM
A walk-on Sophomore we don't think is a capable backup
Buzz said he'll play next year and surprise people. Who knows if Buzz is playing with people, but "we" all haven't written him off as a capable backup.
Then why doesn't he just give him the scholarship?
They still might. Wes said he was the most impressive guy at the pro-am. Another poster on here has said he is the best guard on the team in practice. Why throw the guy under the bus needlessly?
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on March 12, 2011, 08:01:43 PM
Then why doesn't he just give him the scholarship?
may I ask a "stupid" questions without getting lambasted on this board? If he's a walk on and he's going to be on the team next year, why give him a scholarship? Let's get another capable player with the scholarship. I understand it "would be the right thing to do" for the kid if he's earned it. But unless there's just no one left out there worthy of the last scholarship.............?
I'm not sure why I ever read some threads after the first page because they are never about what the topic is.
Quote from: brewcity77 on March 12, 2011, 05:41:39 PM
Unless TJ Taylor is available. I'm not sure how his recruitment will work, but he should be eligible as a JUCO sophomore transfer, similar to Butler and DJO. If he can transfer after this year, he could come in next year as a sophomore, giving us a junior, sophomore, and freshman point next year.
But I'm not positive he will be available as a 2011 recruit, he may need to be a 2012 because he committed to Oklahoma (though never played there).
My view on JUCO kids is pretty simple
If they can come in and play at a high level right away along with represent the university well off the court, bring them on so long as there are quality high school kids being brought in also.
Given i'm not sold on Junior developing into a consistently good starting PG pretty much night in/night out for next year and Wilson will only be a freshman, i'd be somewhat OK with bringing in a JUCO point guard, but would need two things answered.
1. Is the JUCO point guard a big time talent to where he could be expected to perform at a high level right away as guys like DJO, Butler, and Crowder have? If not, there is no reason to bother.
2. I don't know much about Wilson. Does Buzz and his staff think that Wilson is far enough advanced to be at least a 10-15 minute a game contributor as a freshman?
Someone will have to be in place to give Junior minutes to rest and/or play significant minutes on night that Junior isn't playing well.
Quote from: romey on March 12, 2011, 08:08:07 PM
may I ask a "stupid" questions without getting lambasted on this board? If he's a walk on and he's going to be on the team next year, why give him a scholarship?
Because another school could offer him one.
Quote from: romey on March 12, 2011, 08:08:07 PM
may I ask a "stupid" questions without getting lambasted on this board? If he's a walk on and he's going to be on the team next year, why give him a scholarship? Let's get another capable player with the scholarship. I understand it "would be the right thing to do" for the kid if he's earned it. But unless there's just no one left out there worthy of the last scholarship.............?
For most walk-ons at major programs, they stay in that status until they become a regular contributor, not a guy playing a few minutes here and there.
If though at some point Singleton does become a regular part of the playing rotation, the program should do the right thing and give that guy a scholarship the next season if one does open up.
The reason why should be simple, the kid will have earned it and college athletics should be about rewarding kids who do good things for the university/program, not just what's better for the program.
Plus, other walk-ons pay attention to this kind of stuff. One reason Wisconsin football generally gets quality walk-ons to join their program is that their program not only gives them legit chances to play, if the kids do perform, they are given a scholarship.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on March 12, 2011, 08:27:38 PM
Because another school could offer him one.
Nope, they couldn't. He is enrolled at MU and on the team. Even though not on scholarship, he is not recruitable. He could decide to go elsewhere on his own, but he would need to make that decision first.
Doubt, though, that would happen. He came he following his coach from High Point.
Quote from: MUMac on March 12, 2011, 07:34:56 PM
Who is this "we" you speak of. Has there been someone who has been at practice all year that has been commenting on his play? I have no idea if he is capable or not. I suspect no one else on this board does either.
If we think we are solid with a starting PG, a backup PG, and another backup PG--then we don't need to recruit yet another JUCO PG.
The only reason to suggest that we would recruit another PG--JUCO or otherwise--is because we feel that the two backup PG options we have aren't capable.
So if we do recruit a JUCO point guard this year it will complicate playing time and rotations for the next two years, and create a problem in 2013-14 when both Cadougan and the JUCO point guard graduate.
Quote from: Marquette84 on March 12, 2011, 09:20:58 PM
If we think we are solid with a starting PG, a backup PG, and another backup PG--then we don't need to recruit yet another JUCO PG.
The only reason to suggest that we would recruit another PG--JUCO or otherwise--is because we feel that the two backup PG options we have aren't capable.
So if we do recruit a JUCO point guard this year it will complicate playing time and rotations for the next two years, and create a problem in 2013-14 when both Cadougan and the JUCO point guard graduate.
My comment was solely focused on your comment about Singleton. That is why I deleted all the other comments you made. I thought your comment was unfair and uncalled for. Neither you, nor I, know if Singleton is capable or not. Yet, you said "we", inferring the majority, believe he is not capable.
Quote from: Marquette84 on March 12, 2011, 09:20:58 PM
If we think we are solid with a starting PG, a backup PG, and another backup PG--then we don't need to recruit yet another JUCO PG.
The only reason to suggest that we would recruit another PG--JUCO or otherwise--is because we feel that the two backup PG options we have aren't capable.
So if we do recruit a JUCO point guard this year it will complicate playing time and rotations for the next two years, and create a problem in 2013-14 when both Cadougan and the JUCO point guard graduate.
Who will be the two backup point guards next year that you are currently including?
Besides Wilson and a walk on that none of us know yet if he can play PG at a Big East level, i don't see two backups because i'd never count a walk on who has yet to play at all. Now maybe Singleton is actually much better than your typical scrubby walk on that mainly just waives a towel on the bench and comes in late in blowouts, but only Buzz and his staff would know that.
Quote from: Ners on March 12, 2011, 08:31:41 AM
I'm not going to lie...I find it weird how you frequently come to Chicos defense. He is a grown man after all, pretty sure he can fend for himself. Even more weird, that you defend a dude with an anti Buzz agenda...assuming you are an MU fan? Or are you too just a Tom Crean lackey and thus why you defend Chicos?
Here was my Facebook status on Wednesday after somebody (not sure who) so kindly put together the table of Tom Crean's record at Indiana:
"Indiana since Tom Crean became coach:
08-09: 6-25 overall, 1-17 in Big Ten, last place in Big 10
09-10: 10-21 overall, 4-14 in Big Ten, 9th place in Big 10
10-11: 12-19 overall, 3-15 in Big Ten, last place in Big 10
Overall records: 28-65 (.301) overall, 8-45 in Big 10 (.148)
It's Indiana, It's Indiana!
Other Big 10 fans, be thankful for Tom Crean, he is the best thing that possibly could have happened for you."
That should tell you everything you need to know about how I feel about Tom Crean. Then a long discussion went on about how he was the most influential person at MU since Al, which I said other than D Wade I agree with that, and it went on about whether Crean is a good recruiter, a good coach, etc. I hate the guy. But I know he did a lot for Marquette and I know our program would not be where it is now if he had not been a part of it.
I defend Chicos because he
did not say a word about Tom Crean or Buzz and yet you, for some reason, brought up Chicos. I think that is weird. Why did you do that? If Chicos had said something about Crean being great and Buzz being dog sh!t I would have kept my thoughts to myself. I don't care, you two can have your big boy arguments all day. I usually skip right by them. But when you just decide to bring him up it's pretty weird.
I enjoy reading Chicos's posts when they pertain to the subject. I think he brings a good perspective to the board. He doesn't sugar coat what he sees. I appreciate that. Some people (like you) want to call Buzz a Saint and a Hall of Fame coach. That, to me, is boring. I like to hear what people really see in Buzz. Does that mean I think Buzz is crap? Absolutely not. Does that mean I hate Buzz? Absolutely not. Does that mean I love Crean? Absolutely not. Does that mean I think Buzz has a lot of room to improve? Absolutely. Is that bad? No, he's in his 3rd year at Marquette. He will get better, and he has gotten better. Chicos is one of the few people on here who say what they see and doesn't care if other people think he's bashing the program. I agree with him on quite a few of his points. Do I hate Marquette basketball? I love Marquette basketball with a passion.
Just saying, when you're bringing up Chicos based on something he said in the summer, and it's March, it's weird. Argue with him when he says something you disagree with. Leave him out of it when he hasn't said a thing.
Quote from: muwarrior69 on March 12, 2011, 06:00:40 PM
So if a "5 star one and done" chose MU, you would take a pass on him and choose a 3 or 4 star that would play 4 years? Just wondering.
Honestly....I would take a 4 star for four years over a 5 star one and done. Yes, not even a question. I get 4 years of great basketball out of one kid vs 1 year of great basketball from the other.
Also I don't mind Buzz continuing to recruit JUCO players. Who are the best players on this team? JUCO players. If they succeed on the court and in the classroom and do not do anything wrong on or off the court then I say keep them coming. If they can step in and play then I am very happy with them.
If we start getting JUCOs who have off court issues, grade issues, or suck, then I will say cut the ties. Until then, I see no problems with it.
For fun lets get more specific. The five-star leads you to the national championship in that one year. The 4-star leads you to 2 sweet 16s, 1 final 8s and one final four, but no title. On the one hand you have the title to celebrate and maybe some added recruiting benefits, but on the other, you get more established in the long run and maybe more recruiting benefits.
You would have to throw in the question of how well the team would do in the three years after the 5-star left also
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 12, 2011, 09:54:16 PM
Honestly....I would take a 4 star for four years over a 5 star one and done. Yes, not even a question. I get 4 years of great basketball out of one kid vs 1 year of great basketball from the other.
What if that five star was Brandon Knight or Kyrie Irving? PG play was a HUGE area of need this year, I'd take those guys for one season in a heart beat.
Quote from: groove on March 12, 2011, 10:01:42 PM
For fun lets get more specific. The five-star leads you to the national championship in that one year. The 4-star leads you to 2 sweet 16s, 1 final 8s and one final four, but no title. On the one hand you have the title to celebrate and maybe some added recruiting benefits, but on the other, you get more established in the long run and maybe more recruiting benefits.
You would have to throw in the question of how well the team would do in the three years after the 5-star left also
Of course, I'd take the title. Unfortunately, no crystal balls are issued with the recruits so we would never know that.
Quote from: MUMac on March 12, 2011, 09:24:38 PM
My comment was solely focused on your comment about Singleton. That is why I deleted all the other comments you made. I thought your comment was unfair and uncalled for. Neither you, nor I, know if Singleton is capable or not. Yet, you said "we", inferring the majority, believe he is not capable.
I also conditioned the comment about Singleton based on our situation if we brought in another JUCO Point Guard. That's the part you cut out.
I don't understand what's unfair about making the observation that
if we bring in another JUCO point guard to backup Cadougan for next season, the only reason we would do so is because we feel that the current options (which includes Singleton and Wilson) are not deemed capable of filling that role.
Quote from: El Duderino on March 12, 2011, 09:38:46 PM
Who will be the two backup point guards next year that you are currently including?
Besides Wilson and a walk on that none of us know yet if he can play PG at a Big East level, i don't see two backups because i'd never count a walk on who has yet to play at all. Now maybe Singleton is actually much better than your typical scrubby walk on that mainly just waives a towel on the bench and comes in late in blowouts, but only Buzz and his staff would know that.
Watch out . . . MUMac thinks any comment expressing doubt in Singleton's ability is unfair and uncalled for.
Let me clarify for you. Here's who I see as PGs on the roster next year:
1. Cadougan
2. Wilson
3. Singleton.
By my count, that's two scholarship players plus a walk-on with D1 experience. That SHOULD be sufficient.
I don't think we need a 4th PG with those three already on the roster--especially adding a JUCO that would result in three of our four PGs leaving the team at the end of the 2012-13 season.
If a 4th PG shows up next year, I'm going to assume its because Buzz Williams believes that neither Wilson nor Singleton can be an effective backup to Junior Cadougan.
Quote from: wadesworld on March 12, 2011, 09:47:22 PM
That should tell you everything you need to know about how I feel about Tom Crean. Then a long discussion went on about how he was the most influential person at MU since Al, which I said other than D Wade I agree with that, and it went on about whether Crean is a good recruiter, a good coach, etc. I hate the guy. But I know he did a lot for Marquette and I know our program would not be where it is now if he had not been a part of it.
I enjoy reading Chicos's posts when they pertain to the subject. I think he brings a good perspective to the board. He doesn't sugar coat what he sees. I appreciate that. Some people (like you) want to call Buzz a Saint and a Hall of Fame coach. That, to me, is boring. I like to hear what people really see in Buzz. Does that mean I think Buzz is crap? Absolutely not. Does that mean I hate Buzz? Absolutely not. Does that mean I love Crean? Absolutely not. Does that mean I think Buzz has a lot of room to improve? Absolutely. Is that bad? No, he's in his 3rd year at Marquette. He will get better, and he has gotten better. Chicos is one of the few people on here who say what they see and doesn't care if other people think he's bashing the program. I agree with him on quite a few of his points. Do I hate Marquette basketball? I love Marquette basketball with a passion.
Just saying, when you're bringing up Chicos based on something he said in the summer, and it's March, it's weird. Argue with him when he says something you disagree with. Leave him out of it when he hasn't said a thing.
Fair post. But you do realize Chicos has a hard time coming to terms with the fact that D-Wade is the reason we went to the Final Four, correct?? He and I hve gone round and round about Wade's significance to the MU program and Final Four team. Lastly, my only issue with the guy is his double standard whereby he defends the hell out of Tom Crean..yet doesn't offer the same to Buzz Williams. It goes back to chicos exasperation at the hire of Buzz Williams..he was VERY disappointed. Now that Buzz has pretty much done a very good job at MU...the guy tries to poke chinks in his armor. Buzz is our coach..has done a hell of a job...if you or others here can't see that Buzz has "it," sorry...but you have a lot to learn with regard to evaluzting talent as far as a head coach in NCAA basketball is concerned. Yes, Buzz isn't perfect..but what coach is?? The guy can flat out recruit, and motivate his players.
Quote from: Marquette84 on March 12, 2011, 11:13:13 PM
Let me clarify for you. Here's who I see as PGs on the roster next year:
1. Cadougan
2. Wilson
3. Singleton.
By my count, that's two scholarship players plus a walk-on with D1 experience. That SHOULD be sufficient.
I don't think we need a 4th PG with those three already on the roster--especially adding a JUCO that would result in three of our four PGs leaving the team at the end of the 2012-13 season.
If a 4th PG shows up next year, I'm going to assume its because Buzz Williams believes that neither Wilson nor Singleton can be an effective backup to Junior Cadougan.
I doubt that Buzz will try signing a JUCO PG, but if he did, my guess is it would be as telling about what he feels about Cadougan as how he felt about the backup PG situation. Then again, maybe that's just my concerns about Junior making me feel that way because i'm not sold on him being a high quality and consistent starting 30ishmpg PG for us next year. I hope those doubts are misplaced though.
There is also the unknown about Wilson for me. Point guard is a tough position for any freshman in a conference like the Big East, but of course some are able to step in an contribute effectively right away. I honestly have no clue what to expect from him.
That said, with what we should have coming back and especially Otule/Gardner a year more experienced, J.Wilson joining the team, and Anderson/Mayo, i think we have a chance to be pretty good. Point guard though looks to be my biggest concern and thus if and only if Buzz could land a top notch JUCO PG, then i'd be fine with that. It would only be one scholarship out of 12 and not something that would wreak havoc on the program even if it would be more ideal that the Wilson kid could contribute well as a freshman.
Quote from: Marquette84 on March 12, 2011, 11:13:13 PMIf a 4th PG shows up next year, I'm going to assume its because Buzz Williams believes that neither Wilson nor Singleton can be an effective backup to Junior Cadougan.
I find that to be a pretty illogical assumption, especially when you consider Buzz's history as Marquette's coach.
First, Singleton is a walk-on. I hope that he proves he can contribute more than an average walk-on, but the realistic expectation we should have is 1-4 minutes per game in the cupcake games of our schedule, and a combined 5-10 minutes during Big East play. If he exceeds that, great, but there is no reason anyone (including MUMac) should expect him to be a reliable 8-12 mpg guy just because he played at a school that doesn't compete remotely with the level of play he'd see in the Big East.
Second, looking back to the James injury, I think that instead of asking if someone can be an effective backup, the correct question is can they be an effective starter if they are forced into action. With the walk-on ruled out (the same way we rule Frozena out of competitive play) you have one name on the list, which is Wilson. He has thus far a career total of zero minutes of D1 college basketball, which means that there's no completely accurate assessment of how he will perform if Junior were to go down.
The simple truth is that Buzz's offense and system can succeed without a big man. If Otule or Gardner were to get injured and we could only get 15-25 mpg out of the guy that is still healthy, I'm confident that Buzz's experience is such that he would know how to get effective play down low out of guys like Crowder, Jamil, and Anderson. Would it necessarily be the equal of what we lost? Probably not, but it would be adequate.
If Buzz's offense has no Junior Cadougan due to injury, and suddenly Wilson is forced to the bench for 10-15 minutes/game because he's a freshman incapable of playing 38+ mpg, wouldn't it be nice to have another point on the roster? It's all about options. Buzz proved that his team can succeed without many options at the 15-seed. I don't feel that same confidence at the point.
Quote from: Ners on March 12, 2011, 11:27:10 PM
Fair post. But you do realize Chicos has a hard time coming to terms with the fact that D-Wade is the reason we went to the Final Four, correct?? He and I hve gone round and round about Wade's significance to the MU program and Final Four team.
Are you going to play this line until you die?
LOL.
Travis Diener 29 points against Holy Cross....Wade with 15. Without Diener that game, we lose.
Diener 26 points against Missouri....Novak with 14 including 9 in OT....Wade with 24.
Pittsburgh...Merritt had 17 points...Jackson 16 points...Wade 22.
Robert Jackson, Scott Merritt, Bradley, Townsend, Diener, Novak, etc, etc. That was a great team with great players. D-Wade is an all world player. You seem to have a tough time coming to terms with the fact that as good as Wade is, without those other guys playing their part and even EXCEEDING Wade at times, MU doesn't get to that Final Four.
Teams go to the Final Four...not one player. You make it sound like Wade put the team on his back and willed them to the Final Four which could not be further from the truth. Keep playing this line. If you would like, I can send you some DVD's of those first three games as apparently you missed them.
Quote from: brewcity77 on March 13, 2011, 12:21:32 AM
I find that to be a pretty illogical assumption, especially when you consider Buzz's history as Marquette's coach.
First, Singleton is a walk-on. I hope that he proves he can contribute more than an average walk-on, but the realistic expectation we should have is 1-4 minutes per game in the cupcake games of our schedule, and a combined 5-10 minutes during Big East play. If he exceeds that, great, but there is no reason anyone (including MUMac) should expect him to be a reliable 8-12 mpg guy just because he played at a school that doesn't compete remotely with the level of play he'd see in the Big East.
Second, looking back to the James injury, I think that instead of asking if someone can be an effective backup, the correct question is can they be an effective starter if they are forced into action. With the walk-on ruled out (the same way we rule Frozena out of competitive play) you have one name on the list, which is Wilson. He has thus far a career total of zero minutes of D1 college basketball, which means that there's no completely accurate assessment of how he will perform if Junior were to go down.
The simple truth is that Buzz's offense and system can succeed without a big man. If Otule or Gardner were to get injured and we could only get 15-25 mpg out of the guy that is still healthy, I'm confident that Buzz's experience is such that he would know how to get effective play down low out of guys like Crowder, Jamil, and Anderson. Would it necessarily be the equal of what we lost? Probably not, but it would be adequate.
If Buzz's offense has no Junior Cadougan due to injury, and suddenly Wilson is forced to the bench for 10-15 minutes/game because he's a freshman incapable of playing 38+ mpg, wouldn't it be nice to have another point on the roster? It's all about options. Buzz proved that his team can succeed without many options at the 15-seed. I don't feel that same confidence at the point.
I agree with a lot of this and said something kinda similar the post prior.
If we had a team coming back next year that likely should have fairly low expectations of making the NCAA Tournament, i wouldn't want Buzz to even consider signing a JUCO PG. That isn't the case IMO, i think if the team next year has good health and can get quality point guard play, we should make the big dance.
Otule and Garder will have a year under their belts and should be better. DJO and Crowder will be seniors. Hopefully Jamail Jones becomes a regular part of the rotation and Erik Williams can be at least a 10-15mpg guy. Vander has to be better than he was this year. Jamil Wilson has supposedly impressed many during his sit out season. It's certainly possible that either of Anderson or Mayo can contribute as freshman.
The biggest worry for me that might hurt the team next year is problems at PG.
1. What if Cadougan isn't much more consistent than he was this year? Just to much inconsistency of a good game followed by very mediocre or poor games.
2. What if Junior got hurt with an injury that forced him to miss a significant amount of time and Wilson wasn't ready yet to handle the starting PG role?
3. What if point #1 happened with Junior and Wilson was OK for a freshman, but still often enough looked like a freshman playing PG in the toughest conference in all of college basketball? The result would likely be below average and inconsistent PG play compared to the better Big East teams.
Any to all three of those things wouldn't exactly be hard to envision actually happening. If any did, it would suck to see an otherwise well playing team have their NCAA Tournament hopes snuffed out mainly because of issues at PG.
Then again, i don't follow the JUCO ranks at all so i have no idea if any
highly thought of JUCO point guards are still out there to be had. I wouldn't want Buzz to even consider one that wasn't at the very least as good as Cadougan.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 13, 2011, 12:51:06 AM
Are you going to play this line until you die?
LOL.
Travis Diener 29 points against Holy Cross....Wade with 15. Without Diener that game, we lose.
Diener 26 points against Missouri....Novak with 14 including 9 in OT....Wade with 24.
Pittsburgh...Merritt had 17 points...Jackson 16 points...Wade 22.
Robert Jackson, Scott Merritt, Bradley, Townsend, Diener, Novak, etc, etc. That was a great team with great players. D-Wade is an all world player. You seem to have a tough time coming to terms with the fact that as good as Wade is, without those other guys playing their part and even EXCEEDING Wade at times, MU doesn't get to that Final Four.
Teams go to the Final Four...not one player. You make it sound like Wade put the team on his back and willed them to the Final Four which could not be further from the truth. Keep playing this line. If you would like, I can send you some DVD's of those first three games as apparently you missed them.
No question that just one single player wouldn't be good enough to basically on his own get a team to the Final Four if the rest of his team pretty much sucked, unless it was some stud like say a once in a generation big man in the Wilt Chamberlain or Kareem class.
Then again, i question if that team could have even just made the NCAA Tournament if Wade was on the team? I'd say it's about 50/50.
Of course if you remove the best player off any Final Four team, odds are the vast majority of them also wouldn't have made it that far. From team to team that advances that far, each can be different in regards to how much better their best player is compared to the rest of the guys on their team.
Wade though was so incredibly good that he was more like a better version of Kemba Walker in that he was by far the main focus of opposing teams compared to a team like say Kansas this year who is really good, but opposing teams don't generally have to worry that one guy can completely take over a game as Wade could. Opposing coaches had to go into each game building their game plan around containing Wade.
So while i don't think that Marquette team was at all just Wade and largely a bunch of scrubs, he was without any question the main reason MU got to the Final Four. It was more a solid supporting cast and a guy who has become an NBA superstar.
Regardless though if people disagree on how good that supporting cast was around Wade, i don't see how anyone could make an argument which diminishes Crean's role in MU reaching the Final Four. Crean brought in Wade, he didn't arrive out of thin air, so the coach deserves that credit. Sports are a bottom line business and with the massive impact college coaches have as to how their team ends up doing via recruiting/coaching the players on a team, barring bad luck with injuries, the coach deserves the vast majority of credit or blame for how a team does.
I still have issues with how Crean left and his seemingly regular job shopping while at Marquette, i won't ever discredit the successes he did bring the university. Without those successes, we may not have been invited to the Big East and that win vs Kentucky was probably my favorite game in Marquette history to watch.
Unreal - have to wonder if he watched the wvu game before making the final commitment. Maybe he didn't want to getthe abuse mitchell was taking from huggy.
Welcometo MU!!!!!!
Quote from: Victor McCormick on March 11, 2011, 06:08:18 PM
He'll have to rock the 90s T-shirt under the jersey look then I guess
HELL YES
Quote from: brewcity77 on March 13, 2011, 12:21:32 AM
I find that to be a pretty illogical assumption, especially when you consider Buzz's history as Marquette's coach.
First, Singleton is a walk-on. I hope that he proves he can contribute more than an average walk-on, but the realistic expectation we should have is 1-4 minutes per game in the cupcake games of our schedule, and a combined 5-10 minutes during Big East play. If he exceeds that, great, but there is no reason anyone (including MUMac) should expect him to be a reliable 8-12 mpg guy just because he played at a school that doesn't compete remotely with the level of play he'd see in the Big East.
I think I've carved out the right ground on this.
On one hand, I've got you arguing that we can't possibly assume Singleton will be an effective contributor.
On the other, I've got MUMac saying that sort of conclusion is unfair and unwarranted.
I'm in the middle--making no conclusion right now other than the fact that if we bring in another point, it will be a sign that Buzz doesn't think Singleton will be effective at that position.
Quote from: brewcity77 on March 13, 2011, 12:21:32 AM
Second, looking back to the James injury, I think that instead of asking if someone can be an effective backup, the correct question is can they be an effective starter if they are forced into action. With the walk-on ruled out (the same way we rule Frozena out of competitive play) you have one name on the list, which is Wilson. He has thus far a career total of zero minutes of D1 college basketball, which means that there's no completely accurate assessment of how he will perform if Junior were to go down.
Again, MUMac would argue that your comment about Singleton is unfair and uncalled for.
While you raise concerns about what might happen this year--I'm concerned about next year and the year after as well.
My opinion is that we're not going to get an elite Big East point guard at this point of the recruiting cycle. If the opinion of the coaching staff is that WIlson and Singleton can't get it done, nobody they can get is going to give you any more confidence. So we could take another guy this year, eliminate our chances of landing a 4- or 5- star point in the HS class of 2012, and complicate the transition when the JUCO, Singleton and Cadougan all graduate in the same year.
Quote from: brewcity77 on March 13, 2011, 12:21:32 AM
If Buzz's offense has no Junior Cadougan due to injury, and suddenly Wilson is forced to the bench for 10-15 minutes/game because he's a freshman incapable of playing 38+ mpg, wouldn't it be nice to have another point on the roster? It's all about options. Buzz proved that his team can succeed without many options at the 15-seed. I don't feel that same confidence at the point.
You're only thinking short term, and I'm thinking long term. Yes, I understand we run some risk next year--but I think our chances at landing an elite-level PG in the 2012 HS class is significantly improved if we don't take a JUCO now. And I think we need that elite-level PG to move up in the BE standings.
Quote from: El Duderino on March 13, 2011, 01:54:47 AM
No question that just one single player wouldn't be good enough to basically on his own get a team to the Final Four if the rest of his team pretty much sucked, unless it was some stud like say a once in a generation big man in the Wilt Chamberlain or Kareem class.
Then again, i question if that team could have even just made the NCAA Tournament if Wade was on the team? I'd say it's about 50/50.
Of course if you remove the best player off any Final Four team, odds are the vast majority of them also wouldn't have made it that far. From team to team that advances that far, each can be different in regards to how much better their best player is compared to the rest of the guys on their team.
Wade though was so incredibly good that he was more like a better version of Kemba Walker in that he was by far the main focus of opposing teams compared to a team like say Kansas this year who is really good, but opposing teams don't generally have to worry that one guy can completely take over a game as Wade could. Opposing coaches had to go into each game building their game plan around containing Wade.
So while i don't think that Marquette team was at all just Wade and largely a bunch of scrubs, he was without any question the main reason MU got to the Final Four. It was more a solid supporting cast and a guy who has become an NBA superstar.
Regardless though if people disagree on how good that supporting cast was around Wade, i don't see how anyone could make an argument which diminishes Crean's role in MU reaching the Final Four. Crean brought in Wade, he didn't arrive out of thin air, so the coach deserves that credit. Sports are a bottom line business and with the massive impact college coaches have as to how their team ends up doing via recruiting/coaching the players on a team, barring bad luck with injuries, the coach deserves the vast majority of credit or blame for how a team does.
I still have issues with how Crean left and his seemingly regular job shopping while at Marquette, i won't ever discredit the successes he did bring the university. Without those successes, we may not have been invited to the Big East and that win vs Kentucky was probably my favorite game in Marquette history to watch.
Agree 100% with all of your analysis...
Quote from: Marquette84 on March 13, 2011, 09:45:21 AMSo we could take another guy this year, eliminate our chances of landing a 4- or 5- star point in the HS class of 2012, and complicate the transition when the JUCO, Singleton and Cadougan all graduate in the same year.
You're only thinking short term, and I'm thinking long term. Yes, I understand we run some risk next year--but I think our chances at landing an elite-level PG in the 2012 HS class is significantly improved if we don't take a JUCO now. And I think we need that elite-level PG to move up in the BE standings.
I'm thinking both short and long term, and also think realistically in terms of which recruits we are currently involved with. We have a number of bigs in line for 2012: Stokes, Cleare, Nolan, Spencer. We have only one major point guard, a JUCO transfer in TJ Taylor, and it's unclear if he'll be a 2011, 2012, or 2013 transfer. If we could get Taylor, great. Otherwise, we seem to have better point options for 2011 with Guerrero and Dre Henley considering us.
I want that elite level point, but we don't yet know when Taylor will be available to transfer, and I don't see anyone who really fits that mold on our radar until 2013 with Stephen Clark or possibly Bronson Koenig, though I'm sure he'll end up at UNC with Tokoto. The elite level bigs are there next year.
I wonder if other teams focusing on Wade allowed those guys to EXCEED Wade's play.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 13, 2011, 12:51:06 AM
Are you going to play this line until you die?
LOL.
Travis Diener 29 points against Holy Cross....Wade with 15. Without Diener that game, we lose.
Diener 26 points against Missouri....Novak with 14 including 9 in OT....Wade with 24.
Pittsburgh...Merritt had 17 points...Jackson 16 points...Wade 22.
Robert Jackson, Scott Merritt, Bradley, Townsend, Diener, Novak, etc, etc. That was a great team with great players. D-Wade is an all world player. You seem to have a tough time coming to terms with the fact that as good as Wade is, without those other guys playing their part and even EXCEEDING Wade at times, MU doesn't get to that Final Four.
Teams go to the Final Four...not one player. You make it sound like Wade put the team on his back and willed them to the Final Four which could not be further from the truth. Keep playing this line. If you would like, I can send you some DVD's of those first three games as apparently you missed them.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 13, 2011, 12:51:06 AM
Are you going to play this line until you die?
LOL.
Travis Diener 29 points against Holy Cross....Wade with 15. Without Diener that game, we lose.
Diener 26 points against Missouri....Novak with 14 including 9 in OT....Wade with 24.
Pittsburgh...Merritt had 17 points...Jackson 16 points...Wade 22.
Robert Jackson, Scott Merritt, Bradley, Townsend, Diener, Novak, etc, etc. That was a great team with great players. D-Wade is an all world player. You seem to have a tough time coming to terms with the fact that as good as Wade is, without those other guys playing their part and even EXCEEDING Wade at times, MU doesn't get to that Final Four.
Teams go to the Final Four...not one player. You make it sound like Wade put the team on his back and willed them to the Final Four which could not be further from the truth. Keep playing this line. If you would like, I can send you some DVD's of those first three games as apparently you missed them.
Where you fail in your basketball evaluation is to understand the impact 1 player can make on a team's performance. We've aruged over and over and over about the 2004 team - return every player except Wade and RJax and you are an NIT team?? That gets beat in Round 1?? EVERY player from that Final Four team returned except Wade and RJax and you fall off that badly??
Wade = Kemba Walker to UCONN this year. Take WAde off that team and Diener, Novak and RJax aren't nearly as good.I agree that you must have a good team to go to a Final Four..but I subsribe more to the fact that you must have an ELITE type of player to get to one. Think about thatyear - TJ Ford, Carmelo Anthony, Wade and Hinrich - those are 4 Top 8 draft picks in the NBA draft..
if Buzz thinks Singleton is capable as a backup or backup to the backup, we'll know pretty soon.
without seeing the 5 new warriors for next year play, who knows what they can or will contribute to the team.
I'd imagine Wilson is a major minutes guy early on- the rest?
can't bank on frosh.
bringing in a juco in any position will be telling as to how comfy Buzz is with his current guys.
I'm in the camp that he'll take a flier on a project- or bank.
unless a humungous talent becomes available.
but then again, what the hell do I know?
?-(
will be interesting to see how the scholie situation plays out.
Quote from: Marquette84 on March 12, 2011, 11:13:13 PM
Watch out . . . MUMac thinks any comment expressing doubt in Singleton's ability is unfair and uncalled for.
Show me where I ever said that? Come on, you so love to get into these "fact" based pissing matches, so I suspect you can come up with it. My comment about your weak comments stands on it's own merits. You have ZERO knowledge if he is a player or not, yet you stated it as a fact. Weak, very weak, but not unexpected from you. Not at all.
Quote from: El Duderino on March 13, 2011, 01:54:47 AM
No question that just one single player wouldn't be good enough to basically on his own get a team to the Final Four if the rest of his team pretty much sucked, unless it was some stud like say a once in a generation big man in the Wilt Chamberlain or Kareem class.
Then again, i question if that team could have even just made the NCAA Tournament if Wade was on the team? I'd say it's about 50/50.
You don't think a team with Diener, Novak, Merritt, Jackson, Townsend, etc could have made the NCAA tournament?
Quote from: Marquette84 on March 13, 2011, 09:45:21 AM
I think I've carved out the right ground on this.
On one hand, I've got you arguing that we can't possibly assume Singleton will be an effective contributor.
On the other, I've got MUMac saying that sort of conclusion is unfair and unwarranted.
I'm in the middle--making no conclusion right now other than the fact that if we bring in another point, it will be a sign that Buzz doesn't think Singleton will be effective at that position.
Again, MUMac would argue that your comment about Singleton is unfair and uncalled for.
While you raise concerns about what might happen this year--I'm concerned about next year and the year after as well.
My opinion is that we're not going to get an elite Big East point guard at this point of the recruiting cycle. If the opinion of the coaching staff is that WIlson and Singleton can't get it done, nobody they can get is going to give you any more confidence. So we could take another guy this year, eliminate our chances of landing a 4- or 5- star point in the HS class of 2012, and complicate the transition when the JUCO, Singleton and Cadougan all graduate in the same year.
You're only thinking short term, and I'm thinking long term. Yes, I understand we run some risk next year--but I think our chances at landing an elite-level PG in the 2012 HS class is significantly improved if we don't take a JUCO now. And I think we need that elite-level PG to move up in the BE standings.
Wow, I am so honored that the great, in his own mind, SJS is so PO'd with me that he will take every opportunity to mention me. It does, though, make me wonder if you have a comprehension issue. It certainly does appear to be so.
I look forward to future whining from SJS about MUMac. Kind of honored that one of the more obnoxious posters is upset with me.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on March 12, 2011, 08:27:38 PM
Because another school could offer him one.
Ah, makes sense. Then if he's deemed worthy, then ball all means, lock him up.
Quote from: Ners on March 13, 2011, 10:20:31 AM
Where you fail in your basketball evaluation is to understand the impact 1 player can make on a team's performance. We've aruged over and over and over about the 2004 team - return every player except Wade and RJax and you are an NIT team?? That gets beat in Round 1?? EVERY player from that Final Four team returned except Wade and RJax and you fall off that badly??
Wade = Kemba Walker to UCONN this year. Take WAde off that team and Diener, Novak and RJax aren't nearly as good.I agree that you must have a good team to go to a Final Four..but I subsribe more to the fact that you must have an ELITE type of player to get to one. Think about thatyear - TJ Ford, Carmelo Anthony, Wade and Hinrich - those are 4 Top 8 draft picks in the NBA draft..
Where you fail is that Diener played hurt the year after (and the year after that), Merritt had surgery in the offseason and was not the same player. MU now had a target on their back, etc, etc. Losing RJAX was a huge blow.
I get it, we all get it...Wade opened up tremendous opportunities for the other players. But to suggest he was the ONLY reason, which is what you continue to say, is just flat wrong. D-Wade would say the same thing. It's a slap in the face to Diener, Novak, RJax, Merritt, Bradley, Townsend, Chapman, Sanders, etc.
Using your same logic...with MU "only losing" Lazar Hayward, Acker and Cubes (two of the three often crapped on here as poor players), why is MU finishing 9th and struggling more this year than last? Hmm...could it be because each year is different? Each schedule is different? That missing a role player or two can have a huge impact just as missing the star of the team?
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 13, 2011, 11:26:27 AM
You don't think a team with Diener, Novak, Merritt, Jackson, Townsend, etc could have made the NCAA tournament?
Well, a team with Diener, Novak, Merritt, Townsend and every other "etc" from the final 4 team (less Jackson) DIDN'T make the dance.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on March 13, 2011, 11:36:55 AM
Well, a team with Diener, Novak, Merritt, Townsend and every other "etc" from the final 4 team (less Jackson) DIDN'T make the dance.
Forgive me for not putting in the assumed qualifier.
Do you think a HEALTHY team of Diener, Novak, Merritt, Townsend, Chapman, Jackson could have made the NCAAs?
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 13, 2011, 11:32:47 AM
Where you fail is that Diener played hurt the year after (and the year after that), Merritt had surgery in the offseason and was not the same player. MU now had a target on their back, etc, etc. Losing RJAX was a huge blow.
I get it, we all get it...Wade opened up tremendous opportunities for the other players. But to suggest he was the ONLY reason, which is what you continue to say, is just flat wrong. D-Wade would say the same thing. It's a slap in the face to Diener, Novak, RJax, Merritt, Bradley, Townsend, Chapman, Sanders, etc.
Using your same logic...with MU "only losing" Lazar Hayward, Acker and Cubes (two of the three often crapped on here as poor players), why is MU finishing 9th and struggling more this year than last? Hmm...could it be because each year is different? Each schedule is different? That missing a role player or two can have a huge impact just as missing the star of the team?
Sorry but Diener and Merritt both played in every game in 2003-2004 and their minutes per game were virtually identical to the 2002-2003 season..so I really don't think citing injuries as an excuse has any "merritt." Pun intended. What was significantly different is that Novak's minutes went from 16 minutes in 2002/03 season to 29 minutes in 2003/04. At the end of the day...the drop off in performance from 2003 team to 2004 team was significant and Robert Jackson being gone was NOT the reason...nor did it have to do with Travis, Merritt, Steve, Todd, Karon, Joe C..not being solid players...it simply had to do with them no longer playing with one of the Top 5 players IN THE WORLD of the decade of 2000-2010.
We ccan agree that basketball is a team game..but teams with ELITE players and solid supporting casts are the teams that win championships and Final Fours..Jordan, Kobe, Magic, Bird. No Wade alone could not have gotten MU to a Final Four...but he is the single most important player, reason, catalyst for that team's succedss. Period.
Quote from: Ners on March 13, 2011, 11:47:17 AM
We ccan agree that basketball is a team game..but teams with ELITE players and solid supporting casts are the teams that win championships and Final Fours..Jordan, Kobe, Magic, Bird. No Wade alone could not have gotten MU to a Final Four...but he is the single most important player, reason, catalyst for that team's succedss. Period.
Hey...we've made progress....I agree with this. You need elite players to go far. But you said Wade was the ONLY reason. So why are you backtracking now? There are numerous teams with great players that never made the Final Four because they didn't have the players around them. Shaquille O'Neal comes to mind. Tim Duncan comes to mind. Pete Maravich. I could rattle off probably 25 elite players that didn't get there because it's more than just one player. So I don't know what made you switch now to my way of thinking, but I'm glad you came around. It's a team sport and without all the parts, elite players aren't enough to do it.
Glad we finally agree....maybe now you can stop with your nonsense that says I don't understand that Wade was the "sole" or "only" reason we made the Final Four. You just proved it yourself. Welcome to the party.
Split this off since it was so far divergent from the Mayo commitment, but, now I'll lock it for going off topic from the off-topic.