Oh well; a road loss against a top 10 team.
Thought the guys played inspired in the second half.
Otule had a good second half, and looked the best I have seen him this year.
DJO could not get anything to drop.
Much better bench contributions this time--except Blue.
I watched Blue closely this game. In the about 5 minutes that he guarded Stokes, Stokes had 10 points off him--he schooled Blue. So please spare the Blue is a lock down defender hype.
Fulce played well--but is not a post player.
Give the 35 plus minutes to Otule/Gardner at the post. We lose too much in fouls etc. when we force Crowder to guard these 6'9" 240 pound post players. It is not Crowder's position and it forces him into foul trouble.
Judging from what I have seen, we can play close to most of the top tier BEast teams, but that does not give us victories. We desparately need inside presence and when we have to go small, we do not have it.
There is always next year, but that refrain gets old quickly. These are Buzz's players, all of them, and he needs to land some quality bigs to compete for a Beast title. Both Otule and Gardner are two years away if they keep working.
Quote from: willie warrior on February 03, 2011, 07:05:50 AM
Much better bench contributions this time--except Blue.
I watched Blue closely this game. In the about 5 minutes that he guarded Stokes, Stokes had 10 points off him--he schooled Blue. So please spare the Blue is a lock down defender hype.
Agree. Blue has regressed. His defense was terrible.
I was wrong on Fulce. He cannot fill the void at the 5. Buzz is playing the right guys the right amounts of time. For all the complaining I have done all year on starters / playing time, I now beleive he has it right on. I will try and keep my mouth shut in the future. And yes in 2 years we are going to be solid at the 5, I may go as far as to say next year we will be significantly better there. Buzz please land us one 4 star five man. One time!
We struggle when Jae is played out of position, no question.
Absolutely they deserve kudos for cutting into the lead down the stretch. Especially with Jae and DJO struggling the guys did show some gonads.
I would accept a 7' project. Assuming health, normal progress, and everybody returns, we will be better at the 5 next year than at any time since 03.
willlie - some of your posts the past few weeks have left me shaking my head. This one, however, is on point. The first half was average to poor...on both ends of the floor. Lots of 'flat' jumps shots...giving up offensive rebounds...etc. Second half, they came out and made a run (like they always do) but still seemed like a steep uphill battle even when we cut it to a 1 posession game.
Yarou was tough last night...and Otule on the bench for a good portion of the 1st half was brutal. Davante with some meaningful minutes but still isnt quite there yet...and you're 100% correct with not having Crowder guard the 5. He tends to try to use his hands to slap the ball away down low...and last night he got called for it (twice?).
Fulce did a nice job last night, but he just isn't "girthy" enough to play the 5. I would like to see a few sets with him running the baseline/alley when teams go into a 2-3 zone...that seems to be his comfort zone on the offensive end; and could open up more open shots for others.
Quote from: willie warrior on February 03, 2011, 07:05:50 AM
Judging from what I have seen, we can play close to most of the top tier BEast teams, but that does not give us victories.
Agree. Last night was a tough one. Plenty more games to win in Big East play.
MU has proven that they can play with anyone. The problem for them right now seems to be putting together 40 minutes. If they can find a way to do that consistently, they could have a very good remainder of the season.
Interior/post guys are always going to be secondary, which is fine as long as the perimeter guys play well and put pressure on the other team. When they don't, as was largely the case last night, the interior guys simply can't carry enough of the load to make up for it.
I'm not sure I want to see Ox on the floor much more this year. Frankly when we go small, we are better than when we stay big with Gardner in the game. Otule has really progressed nicely...it's going to be nice to have him around for two more years.
Quote from: NavinRJohnson on February 03, 2011, 08:17:30 AM
MU has proven that they can play with anyone. The problem for them right now seems to be putting together 40 minutes. If they can find a way to do that consistently, they could have a very good remainder of the season.
Interior/post guys are always going to be secondary, which is fine as long as the perimeter guys play well and put pressure on the other team. When they don't, as was largely the case last night, the interior guys simply can't carry enough of the load to make up for it.
And that is the problem---we are playing 4 plus perimeter guys to their 5, with usually two post type players of theirs down low. I do not accept that interior guys are always going to be secondary--that is the problem with our capabilities right now though. We have to have a solid down low presence and Crowder is not it. We got lucky last year, because Lazar was very skilled at playing down low-- I saw many times that he could have been called for fouls but was not. And of course, he was playing out of position also.
If we do not establish a solid post presence down low, we will continue to lose most of these games against the elite in BEast. Apparently many are content with middle of the pack status, shrugging it off as, "They are playing hard", or "finding quality bigs is almost impossible because everybody is looking for them", or "we can play with anybody" etc. I believe our philosophy should be we want to compete for BEast titles and make the dance every year. And yes, I understand that we can have an off year,
But right now, we are not competing for BEast titles, and it looks like it is uphill to make the dance this year. If the Pitts, Villanovas. Louisvilles, Syracuses, etc. can do it--wht can't we? And spare me that MU is in Milwaukee and it is too difficult to get guys to come there.
Quote from: willie warrior on February 03, 2011, 08:41:46 AM
If the Pitts, Villanovas. Louisvilles, Syracuses, etc. can do it--wht can't we?
Well...Dixon (12 years at Pitt) , Wright (10 years at Villanova), Pitino (HoF Coach), and Boeheim (One of the greatest of all time), and the history of each might have a little something to do with it.
Quote from: NavinRJohnson on February 03, 2011, 08:51:44 AM
Well...Dixon (12 years at Pitt) , Wright (10 years at Villanova), Pitino (HoF Coach), and Boeheim (One of the greatest of all time), and the history of each might have a little something to do with it.
So...are you saying it is a coaching issue for us?
Quote from: willie warrior on February 03, 2011, 09:35:09 AM
So...are you saying it is a coaching issue for us?
Yes, us and over 300 other teams. If your expectation is that MU should be expected to attract the same players at the same rate as guys like Pitino, Boeheim, Calhoun, etc., then you are going to be disappointed, whether MU is coached by Buzz Williams, Tom Crean, or (Insert Name Here).
If Buzz is still here 7, 8, 9 years from now like Dixon and Wright, that may change, but until that happens, it is simply unrealistic for Buzz to have the same recruiting expectations as the elite coaches in the BE/game.
Quote from: willie warrior on February 03, 2011, 07:05:50 AM
Give the 35 plus minutes to Otule/Gardner at the post. We lose too much in fouls etc. when we force Crowder to guard these 6'9" 240 pound post players.
Willie I love you. You are the definition of emotional overreaction pretending to be analysis.
So now you want Otule and Grader on the floor for 35 minutes.
On January 29 you saidhttp://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=24062.msg267237#msg267237
Otule: A total non factor; 1 rebound in 29 minutes and the tallest guy on the floor. Should only play about
8 minutes a game.Gardner: Needs to develop but IMO adds more than the non factor Otule
On January 23 you saidhttp://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=23854.msg264710#msg264710
It is not like Otule is doing anything. Start Otule, give him his 15 minutes and use Gardner for the other 15 to 20. That is how he will develop.
---
I get it whatever they do the last three minutes in the game is your opinion.
Selective pickings on your part. I have consitently maintained that both should be getting the great majority of the minutes at the 5, and only use Crowder/Fulce a couple of minutes.
In other words: Otule/Gardner: 35 plus minutes per game at the 5; Crowder/Fulce, the balance.
I also have said that Gardner should be getting 15 plus minutes per game to develop. Lots of people don't like that. I do.
Quote from: willie warrior on February 03, 2011, 11:48:06 AM
I also have said that Gardner should be getting 15 plus minutes per game to develop. Lots of people don't like that. I do.
Could not agree more. In fact I would sacrifice a BE win this year to get him at least 10 min a game down the stretch here.
Quote from: chren21 on February 03, 2011, 11:55:54 AM
Could not agree more. In fact I would sacrifice a BE win this year to get him at least 10 min a game down the stretch here.
First, I completely disagree with the premise that we should sacrifice anything to get players experience. Second, I don't think ten mpg will do him any good down the line anyway.
Quote from: chren21 on February 03, 2011, 11:55:54 AM
Could not agree more. In fact I would sacrifice a BE win this year to get him at least 10 min a game down the stretch here.
Are you serious? This is possibly the worst idea yet!
Play them "too much" next year in buy-in game in November and December. To do this is insane.
Quote from: willie warrior on February 03, 2011, 11:48:06 AM
In other words: Otule/Gardner: 35 plus minutes per game at the 5; Crowder/Fulce, the balance.
I also have said that Gardner should be getting 15 plus minutes per game to develop. Lots of people don't like that. I do.
Except that both could not make it that long without fouling out,
Quote from: AnotherMU84 on February 03, 2011, 12:00:53 PM
Are you serious? This is possibly the worst idea yet!
Play them "too much" next year in buy-in game in November and December. To do this is insane.
Well then I am insane. I think your underestimating the value of BE experience, especially on the road. Are we really going further than the first or second round of the NCAA this year? I think most would say no, so if we could still make the tourney somehow and get him 10-15 min a game I would take it in a heartbeat. Even if it means one less win than we would have had.
Big men take a while to develop. It helps practicing and all that but nothing, repeat, nothing is like experience in huge games during the 2nd half of the season. Otule is getting the reps he needs but we are one injury away from all DG at the 5.
We need to play our "bigs"35 minutes or more. When we play small, we don't play fast like we did in the past few years. Now when we play small we surrender easy baskets underneath. It seems that our aggressive defensive wanes after a few minutes. Our shooting was terrible last night. Hope Buzz recruits a couple good "bigs" for next year. Will he ever learn? You can't win in the BE by playing "small" and slow!
The problem I have is that I honestly don't think Ox is a 5. He's only 6'9", isn't terribly long, and can't jump. When he came in, I viewed him as more of a PF type, but he isn't explosive enough for that. Put it this way, if we are in a position to play him big, meaningful minutes, we're f*cked...and I don't think experience can make up for that.
Quote from: msbjim on February 03, 2011, 12:07:39 PM
Will he ever learn? You can't win in the BE by playing "small" and slow!
Yeah, no kidding. I can't believe he hasn't figured that out after two whole years, 23 wins and two top 5 finishes. When is he ever going to get tired of all that losing, and stop intentionally putting slow small guys out there, while our talented 7 footers and lightening quick guards rot on the bench? Get a clue Buzz!
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on February 03, 2011, 12:21:18 PM
The problem I have is that I honestly don't think Ox is a 5. He's only 6'9", isn't terribly long, and can't jump. When he came in, I viewed him as more of a PF type, but he isn't explosive enough for that. Put it this way, if we are in a position to play him big, meaningful minutes, we're f*cked...and I don't think experience can make up for that.
Take a look at josh smith at UCLA. a lot like Ox in terms of size and build. smith mauls guys. Ox plays a little to soft.
Quote from: NavinRJohnson on February 03, 2011, 12:29:18 PM
Yeah, no kidding. I can't believe he hasn't figured that out after two whole years, 23 wins and two top 5 finishes. When is he ever going to get tired of all that losing, and stop intentionally putting slow small guys out there, while our talented 7 footers and lightening quick guards rot on the bench? Get a clue Buzz!
2008-09 12-6 mostly not Buzz's players
2009-10 11-7 more of Buzz's players
2010-11 5-5 Tie for 10th place; all Buzz's guys
So... do we need to ask a question: Are we improving year to year?
Quote from: willie warrior on February 03, 2011, 01:00:51 PM
2008-09 12-6 mostly not Buzz's players
2009-10 11-7 more of Buzz's players
2010-11 5-5 Tie for 10th place; all Buzz's guys
So... do we need to ask a question: Are we improving year to year?
At the same point in the BE season ...
2008-09 9-1 BE, 20-3 overall But we went 3-5 the rest of the way
2009-10 5-5 BE, 14-8 overall and praise that this team was over-achieving.
2010-11 5-5 BE, 14-9 overall and whining that we suck
Quote from: chren21 on February 03, 2011, 12:07:11 PM
Are we really going further than the first or second round of the NCAA this year? I think most would say no, so if we could still make the tourney somehow and get him 10-15 min a game I would take it in a heartbeat. Even if it means one less win than we would have had.
Second round of the tourney is about $500,000 for the school. Call Cottingham and write him a $500,000 check and tell him if he cashes it, Buzz has to give Ox 20 minutes a game.
I also read that if MU makes the tourney, it will be 7 years in a row (or is it 5 now and this year would be six?). Only 11 schools have this kind of streak. Throw this away to give a Freshman a few extra minutes to lose us a game?
You are insane
Maybe our 5-5 record has more to do with the fact that we have played 8 of our 10 conference games against top 25 teams (according to Pomeroy) then the players Buzz has recruited?
We have played the most difficult conference schedule in the country so far.
Why not wait until the schedule balances itself out before drawing conclusions?
Quote from: AnotherMU84 on February 03, 2011, 02:38:35 PM
Second round of the tourney is about $500,000 for the school. Call Cottingham and write him a $500,000 check and tell him if he cashes it, Buzz has to give Ox 20 minutes a game.
I also read that if MU makes the tourney, it will be 7 years in a row (or is it 5 now and this year would be six?). Only 11 schools have this kind of streak. Throw this away to give a Freshman a few extra minutes to lose us a game?
You are insane
Guess I am. I think we could still make the tourney either way. If I was Cottingham and Buzz my goal would be BE titles and Sweet 16's. If were are going to get to that point consistently we need more than just Otule
You all realize, I'm sure, that Buzz said when asked about red-shirting, that if he had known Chris was going to stay healthy and play the way he has, he would have considered red-shirting DG. Contributions from DG are sprinkles on the cupcake at this point.
Quote from: tower912 on February 03, 2011, 02:58:42 PM
You all realize, I'm sure, that Buzz said when asked about red-shirting, that if he had known Chris was going to stay healthy and play the way he has, he would have considered red-shirting DG. Contributions from DG are sprinkles on the cupcake at this point.
I did not know that. When was this?
Don't forget, we don't have a 2007 recruiting class and we lost our best player in the 2008 recruiting class due to the coaching change.
We all knew the schedule in the BE was front heavy. I am happy to be .500 at this point. We should win 6 more games and show a good trend heading into MSG and hopefully the NCAA.
Quote from: AnotherMU84 on February 03, 2011, 02:33:10 PM
At the same point in the BE season ...
2008-09 9-1 BE, 20-3 overall But we went 3-5 the rest of the way
2009-10 5-5 BE, 14-8 overall and praise that this team was over-achieving.
2010-11 5-5 BE, 14-9 overall and whining that we suck
Don't see any whining there--just asking a question.
Quote from: chren21 on February 03, 2011, 03:01:49 PM
I did not know that. When was this?
Monday night radio show with Homer a couple of weeks ago. (1/24) The question was about his philosophy on red-shirting and he basically said it was on a case by case basis, after discussing with the player and the player's family what was in the best interest of the player. Then he said that if he had known that Chris was going to stay healthy and play like this, he might have had that conversation with DG.
Quote from: willie warrior on February 03, 2011, 04:48:41 PM
Don't see any whining there--just asking a question.
Not you .. the general whining on the board about this season