OK it was pretty clear that Buzz viewed Chris as a liability against the Huskies on Tuesday. Even with them playing two guys that were close to 7 feet tall, Chris mainly rode the pine. Does this mean we will see more of Devante down the stretch in the Big East? Frankly, I am sick of Otule and I know he works hard but he will never be even close to what Barro was able to be (i.e. actually put up a fight against some of the top big men in the conference like Roy Hibbert, etc. and grab a few points and a few rebounds per night). I know Chris had flashes of brilliance, particularly against Vandy. But I want to see Devante get a chance to be the next Robert Jackson.
Otule the rest of this year. I expect that with another off-season of conditioning, the positions will be reversed next year.
I prefer Gardner, but have not given up on Otule. Both have their strengths. Otule is not a bad shot blocker, but does have poor hands. Neither runs the floor well, but right now, Otule is probably a bit more conditioned than Gardner.
I still would like to see their minutes split more, say 22 to 25 for Otule and balance for Gardner. I do not like Crowder or Fulce in the post--not thier positions.
When it comes right down to it, we will need both Otule and Gardner in the BEast wars, and I think that both can still improve. I just like Gardner's offensive skills better than Otule and think he has more of an upside.
Wow, willie, well done. I agree that Gardner has better offensive skills and that Chris's hands are unlikely to ever get a ton better. I was watching against UConn and it looked like a couple of times that Chris decided that the best he could do on the D-boards was to find his guy and move him as far away as he could, letting Jimmy/Jae get the rebound. I thought Gardner looked better against UConn, too. Footwork was there, still a step slow on rotations when the ball swung. I wonder if the shoulder injury was worse than we were led to believe, crimping practice time and development, as his offensive game has not significantly progressed. Again, I think that next year DG starts and CO comes off of the bench as a defensive sub.
Quote from: willie warrior on January 27, 2011, 11:35:06 AM
I prefer Gardner, but have not given up on Otule. Both have their strengths. Otule is not a bad shot blocker, but does have poor hands. Neither runs the floor well, but right now, Otule is probably a bit more conditioned than Gardner.
I still would like to see their minutes split more, say 22 to 25 for Otule and balance for Gardner. I do not like Crowder or Fulce in the post--not thier positions.
When it comes right down to it, we will need both Otule and Gardner in the BEast wars, and I think that both can still improve. I just like Gardner's offensive skills better than Otule and think he has more of an upside.
I pretty much agree with this. Although there are times when going small is what we have to do.
I do think that Otule will be starting both next year and the year after.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on January 27, 2011, 11:45:30 AM
I pretty much agree with this. Although there are times when going small is what we have to do.
I do think that Otule will be starting both next year and the year after.
I liked that Buzz went small for a while against UConn; it produced our run and got us our lead. When we decide to slow down and play halfcourt ball, however, I was a little surprised that CO and DG both stayed on the bench. At least a token inside presence was necessary against their towers. We really needed some rebounding.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on January 27, 2011, 11:45:30 AM
I do think that Otule will be starting both next year and the year after.
Agreed. Even this year it may not seem like it with the numbers, but he has improved drastically. The fact hes only a sophmore bring hope that he can be pretty solid.
Otule works very hard in the post but he doesn't get fed the ball all that often, though perhaps that is by design because his offensive skills still need to be refined. Keep in mind that Otule is a sophomore who had played just 85 minutes of D1 basketball coming into this season. He's in his 3rd season at MU but was injured for a majority of the time and hasn't had a full season of games plus a full offseason at MU to work on his game.
Given this info plus the fact that he was a project to begin with, I think he has come along very well. I don't think he's ever going to become a dominant big man but he's a good shot-blocker and he gets his body on his man when a shot goes up. If he had similar production but his 14 minutes per game were coming off the bench in relief of a solid upperclassman big, I believe that more people would look at him as a solid big man prospect. Since he's been thrust into the roll of starting center before he's really ready, fans are going to have a skewed view of him.
Gardner is going to be a stud as an upperclassman. He's got great hands, a nice feel for the game and a few solid post moves. Right now, the game is just going too fast for him. As he gets more experience and has more workouts with Todd, he's going to become a legit post presence. However, like Otule, he's probably going to be thrown into the mix before he's truly ready.
Quote from: warriors1991 on January 27, 2011, 11:47:49 AM
I liked that Buzz went small for a while against UConn; it produced our run and got us our lead. When we decide to slow down and play halfcourt ball, however, I was a little surprised that CO and DG both stayed on the bench. At least a token inside presence was necessary against their towers. We really needed some rebounding.
Buzz went small and it produced turn overs. The problem was that after the UCONN time-out they started taking better care of the ball. No turnovers = bad production against their set defense. In retrospect at the UCONN time out Buzz should have gone big again in the hope of grinding out a victory now that he had the lead. Kind of like using a gimmick defense Buzz stayed with it too long and they figured it out. And when the defense stopped producing offense we were in trouble.
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on January 27, 2011, 12:02:32 PM
Gardner is going to be a stud as an upperclassman. He's got great hands, a nice feel for the game and a few solid post moves. Right now, the game is just going too fast for him. As he gets more experience and has more workouts with Todd, he's going to become a legit post presence. However, like Otule, he's probably going to be thrown into the mix before he's truly ready.
The problem with Gardner is that he has no lift so he actually plays smaller than he really is.
Otule gets a rebound every fifteen minutes or so and he's the starting center?
Give Gardner the job and see what he can do, if his conditioning allows him to stay on the floor for any length of time. If MU loses the next two games, then give a ton of time to Gardner, Jones and Williams, since a tourney bid is then out of the question.
Quote from: warriors1965 on January 27, 2011, 12:34:08 PM
Otule gets a rebound every fifteen minutes or so and he's the starting center?
Give Gardner the job and see what he can do, if his conditioning allows him to stay on the floor for any length of time. If MU loses the next two games, then give a ton of time to Gardner, Jones and Williams, since a tourney bid is then out of the question.
Or MU could suit Andrew Bogut up in Frozena's uniform, send him into the game and see if anyone notices.
Neither
Otule can't even catch a hand off most times, let alone a pass. He can't adjust/center-in on the backboard which accounts for his nofooters to the left or right. He rarely blocks out his man. When he has time he is better, but still?
What we are giving up is 15-20 points a game with Gardner for a few blocked shots. Gardner can get his own shot and finishes, something we dearly need.
I believe, and have since the seasons started, the low post is critical for this team and Jae and Joe are too small to play a 5. We will continue to lose against the top teams till coach plays Gardner enough to get him experienced.
Get used to the losing, "but they will be close."
Quote from: 4everwarriors on January 27, 2011, 02:04:37 PM
Neither
This. Don't you guys watch this team? Otule/Garder combined should get 15 mins max. There are certain situations where it is worth playing them but small ball it is until one or the other improves markedly.
Quote from: muchamps on January 27, 2011, 02:20:06 PM
Otule can't even catch a hand off most times, let alone a pass. He can't adjust/center-in on the backboard which accounts for his nofooters to the left or right. He rarely blocks out his man. When he has time he is better, but still?
What we are giving up is 15-20 points a game with Gardner for a few blocked shots. Gardner can get his own shot and finishes, something we dearly need.
No, Otule can't catch balls he's not expecting. When he calls for the ball, I'd say that he handles it fine probably 85% of the time. When he's rebounding or being passed to when he's not ready for it (many of Buycks no-look or unexpected bounce passes) he usually fumbles it. He's certainly not the perfect big man, but I'd take him over a lot of other 7-foot stiffs that don't put in near the effort he does.
Oh wait...did I read that right? You really think Gardner would average 15-20 points a game if he was getting Otule's minutes? Hell, do you think he'd average that if he got 30 mpg? Guess it's time to disregard your entire post. If you think Gardner is ready right now to average 15-20 ppg in the Big East, there's simply nothing anyone can say to convey reality to you.
I believe that either Otule or Gardner should be playing the majority of the time. We need a "big" in the line up. It seems that Buzz is not comfortable coaching and playing "bigs." Has he every coached "bigs" prior to Marquette?
keep in mind that if Junior is the point next year, you can't play Otule and him at the same time. Therfore OX has to be the man
Quote from: Marquette65 on January 27, 2011, 04:00:49 PMkeep in mind that if Junior is the point next year, you can't play Otule and him at the same time. Therfore OX has to be the man
Absolutely untrue. Junior spent the past year or so getting back to being fit, including the off-season. Maybe this year he spends his off-season developing a reliable 12-foot jumper. Maybe he improves his rapport with Otule, knowing both will be counted on even more with Buycks, Butler, and Fulce graduating, and he learns when he can and can't dish inside to CO for an easy layup. Trying to say that what we are seeing now can't change by November is simply silly.
yes, but 65/nmb has a history of just plain silly.
Quote from: Marquette65 on January 27, 2011, 04:00:49 PM
keep in mind that if Junior is the point next year, you can't play Otule and him at the same time. Therfore OX has to be the man
Uhh...care to explain why you think this is even remotely true?
Quote from: willie warrior on January 27, 2011, 11:35:06 AM
I prefer Gardner, but have not given up on Otule. Both have their strengths. Otule is not a bad shot blocker, but does have poor hands. Neither runs the floor well, but right now, Otule is probably a bit more conditioned than Gardner.
I still would like to see their minutes split more, say 22 to 25 for Otule and balance for Gardner. I do not like Crowder or Fulce in the post--not thier positions.
When it comes right down to it, we will need both Otule and Gardner in the BEast wars, and I think that both can still improve. I just like Gardner's offensive skills better than Otule and think he has more of an upside.
Willie,
I have given you grief over many of your posts but this one is excellent.
Quote from: buzzchiapet on January 27, 2011, 11:50:12 AM
Agreed. Even this year it may not seem like it with the numbers, but he has improved drastically. The fact hes only a sophmore bring hope that he can be pretty solid.
Otule will never be the type of Center MU needs to compete in the BE. Keep dreaming. If he doubles his rebounding he will average two a game next year.
QuoteNo, Otule can't catch balls he's not expecting. When he calls for the ball, I'd say that he handles it fine probably 85% of the time. When he's rebounding or being passed to when he's not ready for it (many of Buycks no-look or unexpected bounce passes) he usually fumbles it. He's certainly not the perfect big man, but I'd take him over a lot of other 7-foot stiffs that don't put in near the effort he does.
Exactamundo!
Maybe we should look at stats per 40 minutes per game to see how the two stack up:
Otule Gardner
FG% .597 .580
FT% .583 .700
Off. Reb 2.8 4.8
Def. Reb 4.4 4.4
Blocks 4.0 1.2
Assists .4 1.6
Steals .8 .8
TO's 2.4 2.4
Fouls 7.3 5.0
Points 14 22
Based on their stats per 40 minutes played:
Otule: shooting % a bit better, and a far superior shot blocker; more personal fouls
Gardner: a better FT shooter; a better rebounder; a better assist man; and a far superior scorer
That is why I prefer Gardner, and this is pretty objective based on 40 minutes of competition. And these are from playing the same position--Center
That is also why I believe that Gardner should be getting more minutes.
What do others think?
I appreciate these stats, but my only reservation is that Gardner's playing time mostly occured before BE play. Per 40 stats also don't take conditioning into effect.
If Gardner improves on the defensive end, I would have no problem giving him equal minutes to Otule.
I wish that either Otule or Gardner could play anywhere near 40 minutes - that would be nice. Or combined. But Garnder is more of a defensive liability that Otule. And our problem this year is not us scoring, it's stopping the other team from scoring. Gardner's edge on offensive rebounds is nice - we need that, but overall, he will get beat more thatn Otule on defense. I think.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on January 28, 2011, 10:25:53 AM
I appreciate these stats, but my only reservation is that Gardner's playing time mostly occured before BE play. Per 40 stats also don't take conditioning into effect.
If Gardner improves on the defensive end, I would have no problem giving him equal minutes to Otule.
Agreed they do not take conditioning into effect. I think you would also agree that neither of them could go 40 minutes per game--or 39 or 38, etc. And yes, likely most of Gardner's minutes were before BEast play, however, Otule is only averaging 15 minutes per game in Beast (Gardner is about 6), so why not give more of those down minutes to Gardner? We need big presence in games, and if Otule is getting 15 to 20 minutes, then give Gardner more minutes, to keep a big presence.
Because I don't think Buzz is in love with either one of them and would rather go small.
I've thought a lot about this question, and answering it is like deciding if you'd rather get hit in the head with a shovel or a baseball bat. Neither option is particularly pleasant.
Otule plays good initial D but can't rebound, and is not very useful on offense, other than occupying a big defender.
Gardner has excellent hands and a soft touch, but he can't jump over the foul line so he has trouble getting shots off against athletic big men. He's not the interior defender that Otule is and cannot provide help defense the way Otule does. He's a better rebounder than Otule in the same way than Danny Devito is taller than Rhea Pearlman.
I think they both will get better in the coming seasons.
It all depends on what you are trying to get out of this season.
If you want to win today, you spot them like Buzz does now, and make use of them to switch up the looks you give the other team. For instance, once UConn figured out what to do about Butler in the post, you bring back Otule, have him occupy a big defender and run the other guys off screens like we were doing at the beginning of the game.
If you want to build for a future where they are key cogs, you play them 15-20 minutes each, you make sure they get the ball in the low post several times a game and make sure they are aware that they are expected to make good decisions with the ball, which may include kicking it back out for a jump shot or finding a cutter.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on January 28, 2011, 10:46:17 AM
Because I don't think Buzz is in love with either one of them and would rather go small.
And how is that working out:
Pitt: Loss
Louisville: Loss
ND: 2nd game loss
UConn: Loss
Not saying small does not ever work, but it isn't working right now.
Quote from: willie warrior on January 28, 2011, 12:40:42 PM
And how is that working out:
Pitt: Loss
Louisville: Loss
ND: 2nd game loss
UConn: Loss
Not saying small does not ever work, but it isn't working right now.
Right on Willie! If we want to win anything, Buzz needs to get Gardner 20 plus min a game. I've caught allot of hell on this board talking about this since Oct. But if nothing changes we will be 8 & 10 at best and going to the NIT. And Gardners chance for experience will be wasted, pushed to next season.
Quote from: muchamps on January 28, 2011, 01:35:22 PM
Right on Willie! If we want to win anything, Buzz needs to get Gardner 20 plus min a game. I've caught allot of hell on this board talking about this since Oct. But if nothing changes we will be 8 & 10 at best and going to the NIT. And Gardners chance for experience will be wasted, pushed to next season.
From this day forward, Marquette should only play freshmen and sophomores! Not just this season, but in all seasons going forward. Get those kids some experience! After all, it's better to get blown out by playing guys who aren't ready to play than to play close, hard-fought games featuring the best 7-8 players on the team.
Quote from: muchamps on January 28, 2011, 01:35:22 PM
Right on Willie! If we want to win anything, Buzz needs to get Gardner 20 plus min a game. I've caught allot of hell on this board talking about this since Oct. But if nothing changes we will be 8 & 10 at best and going to the NIT. And Gardners chance for experience will be wasted, pushed to next season.
You have 10 posts, several of which are about a job. You've been talking about this since October? Under what name? I've read your 10 posts. You mention it once in December. Does no one actually watch Gardner when he is in the game? He is making progress but he is still slow. I think Buzz said on his last radio show that if he had known Otule was going to stay healthy he would have considered redshirting DG. He has come miles in his body shape and conditioning, but he still has miles to go. By his junior year, he should be a force. That is why I hope, with our last two schollies, we get the best JUCO combo guard out there and a 7 ft project that we can redshirt and have ready in 3 years.
Quote from: willie warrior on January 28, 2011, 12:40:42 PM
And how is that working out:
Pitt: Loss
Louisville: Loss
ND: 2nd game loss
UConn: Loss
Not saying small does not ever work, but it isn't working right now.
I would add the Zags and Wisky to this...Buzz went small and those two also separated from MU. That said, small ball has worked very well at times and for stretches.
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on January 28, 2011, 03:03:41 PM
I would add the Zags and Wisky to this...Buzz went small and those two also separated from MU. That said, small ball has work very well at times and for stretches.
Was just referencing some recent games.
Against UConn, we wound up building a lead with Otule in the game, and falling behind when he was on the bench. His +/- was +7 when in the game and -15 when he was on the bench.
Outside of the Vanderbilt game, he really hasn't hurt us significantly while in the lineup, and there are a handful of games (like 2nd Notre Dame, UConn, Louisville) where there is a significant upside when he's in compared to when he's out.
As people demonstrate by posting his scoring and rebounding stats, he's not suffing his own stats. But as a team we seem to be playing better (outscoring the opponent) as of late when Otule is in the game.
Quote from: Marquette84 on January 28, 2011, 03:44:21 PM
Against UConn, we wound up building a lead with Otule in the game, and falling behind when he was on the bench. His +/- was +7 when in the game and -15 when he was on the bench.
Outside of the Vanderbilt game, he really hasn't hurt us significantly while in the lineup, and there are a handful of games (like 2nd Notre Dame, UConn, Louisville) where there is a significant upside when he's in compared to when he's out.
As people demonstrate by posting his scoring and rebounding stats, he's not suffing his own stats. But as a team we seem to be playing better (outscoring the opponent) as of late when Otule is in the game.
I think you are confused. Vanderbilt was one of Chris's best games both offensively and defensively.