We are in Buzz's third year, all of our scorers are JUCO players (Butler, Buycks, DJO, Crowder). That is not the issue.
The issue is that we currently do not have a lot of high school recruits that project to be stars (the top tier teams in the BE have loaded lineups with star players). Who will be stars of the HS recruits - Blue (if he can develop a shot / some offense), Gardner (if he can get in game shape to play more than 2 trips up and down the court) After that, the rest seem to have significant limitations - Cadougan and Otule have significant limitations to their game at PG and Center. Who knows what Ewill can do - Buzz never plays him for some reason. Jamail Jones appears on track to be the next EWill at this point (maybe that will change).
Coming in next year, Wilson looks like he has the physical tools to be a star (a transfer versus a recruit however). Hopefully Anderson and Wilson can be stars (Anderson looks to have the physical capability).
Maybe Buzz's recruiting has not been so good after all... maybe the success of Buzz's teams have been the stars left from the previous coach (and I am not a Crean fan, no agenda there) as well as the JUCO's Buzz has brought in.
One big JC name would have been a keeper. RICARDO RATLIFFE, Missouri. Did we ever try for him? Like Crowder.
Recruiting JUCO's is great to fill a whole. I am afraid we take JUCO's out of fear of falling to bottom half of BE. There is great pressure for MU to remain in top half and I believe that hurts us in the long haul.
I don't think we need more JUCO's unless they are absolute studs and have three years of eligibility. We need 4 year players who will develop in the system.
While afraid of falling to the bottom half, MU certainly not making strides to move from mid-pack to the top tier. With the current talent - the ceiling for MU in BE is 5 place.
Quote from: Goose on January 26, 2011, 11:25:09 AM
Recruiting JUCO's is great to fill a whole. I am afraid we take JUCO's out of fear of falling to bottom half of BE. There is great pressure for MU to remain in top half and I believe that hurts us in the long haul.
Jucos were needed to balance the classes after Crean left.
My point is that JUCO's are the reason for the success of the team (and crean's players) and that the recruiting pipeline does not look full to replace the JUCO's (at this time)...
Quote from: AnotherMU84 on January 26, 2011, 12:01:55 PM
Jucos were needed to balance the classes after Crean left.
I hope the Juco recruiting tails off. The constant flux of players in and out of the program is not a good long term recipe for success.
Another thread starting by someone who should do some research before posting. Buzz has 3.5 recruiting classes. You can't really judge his first class because he took over in April and most HS players were signed. JUCO was really the only route to go especially after we lost two of our own signees.
The 09 class, had seven players: E. Williams, Mbao, Junior, Maymon, DJO, Buckys and Roseboro. Only two were JUCOs.
The 10 class had: Gardner, Crowder, Blue, Smith, Newbill, Jones,
11 so far: Anderson and Wilson.
15 players and only three JUCOs. To me, that doesn't seem to be overly dependent on the JUCO ranks. But that's just me.
Quote from: pghdanno on January 26, 2011, 12:26:47 PM
15 players and only three JUCOs. To me, that doesn't seem to be overly dependent on the JUCO ranks. But that's just me.
But, Buzz is dependent on the JUCOs for the majority of playing time. Butler, Crowder, DJO and Buycks get over 30 minutes a game. Fulce gets about 10 minutes. Of the non-JUCOs, only Otule , Blue and Junior see any significant playing time. Mbao, Maymon, Roseboro and SMith all transfered and Newbill had has offer rescinded.
I hope the development of these young players occurs soon, because if it doesn't, MU will be in a lot of troulble the next several years.
Quote from: AnotherMU84 on January 26, 2011, 12:01:55 PM
Jucos were needed to balance the classes after Crean left.
crean left 3 years ago. Getting old brining him up.
I don't want a two year juco big man (unless he's incredible) for 2011.
His SR year we'd have:
Otule SR
E Will SR
J Wil JR
OX JR
It's the perfect time to pick up a 4 year project who would be a sophmore in 2012 and so we wouldn't be losing so much beef going into 2013
This not a Crean bash. He did some great things for the program. The fact remains he had a number of total wipe out recruiting cycles where everyone left one way or another.
I think it was ESPN, one of their guys, who said Buzz makes it happen with recruiing scraps. Buzz has to be ahead of the curve to land any talent. That's how he got Butler, Crowder and DJO.
If ou could put Cadougan and Buycks in a blender you would have a player who would make this current team top five caliber. The program is that close.
Is E will going to get better with age? I seriously doubt it. At this point, no JUCO or incoming freshman big man should be scared off by E Will's presence.
Quote from: Boone on January 26, 2011, 01:56:49 PM
Is E will going to get better with age? I seriously doubt it. At this point, no JUCO or incoming freshman big man should be scared off by E Will's presence.
Agreed, though not because of the prospect of Williams improving, but more because I don't think of him as a big man. 6'7", sure he has some size, but he seems to be more of a 3 than a 4 or 5. Maybe it's just me, and maybe just because we haven't seen enough of him to make an accurate judgment, but he certainly seems to be more in the role of a Butler than a Fulce in terms of style.
No, it's not just you. With his height and outside shot, he seems suited to be a switchable. Yet, he can't defend either position and isn't athletic enough to drive from the perimeter or strong enough to score in the post. I don't see any of these conditions changing.
Repeat after me, "We need good big men." Buzz needs to recruit high quality big men to compete in the Big East. Also, he needs to coach and play big men. Play Otule and Gardner and Williams more.
we've needed good big men since RJax left. Merrit, Grimm, Roseboro, Lott, Kinsella, Ous, Mbao, McMorrow, Burke. What we need is for one to develop as they do at the mid-majors that make those bracket-busting runs. I see potential in both Otule and DG. I fear that Chris's rebounding is always going to be a factor due to the fact that rebounds are nothing but rapidly moving, direction-changing, passes from a short distance. I saw him pushing his guy away from the boards a few times last night on rebounds he had no intention of gettng. That may be the best he can do. DG will be a threat, probably by next year.
Quote from: tower912 on January 26, 2011, 02:34:40 PM
DG will be a threat, probably by next year.
I think so too - though I only expect him to really turn it on in the second half of next year. Don't ask me why, it's just a WAG.
Quote from: tower912 on January 26, 2011, 02:34:40 PM
we've needed good big men since RJax left. Merrit, Grimm, Roseboro, Lott, Kinsella, Ous, Mbao, McMorrow, Burke.
I don't know if Merritt belongs with that crew - he scored over 1,000 points and 600 rebounds in his career with MU.
again, the point I am making is not "why we recruit Juco's" or "we recruit too many JUCO's."
The point is that the team's playmakers right now are 4 JUCO players and we do not currently have playmakers who are from Buzz's HS recruiting classes.
I fear we may not have the talent to replace the current JUCO leaders when they graduate with our HS recruit pipeline (the last 2 classes do not look stellar right now)...
I'm not sure there's any reason to get too worried yet. Cadougan is starting to look like a pretty competent floor general. He's not a scorer, but there's no reason he won't be able to be a decent starting point next season. Otule is a decent defender, and while he'll likely never be a star, he should be a contributing piece up front for the next two years. And both Blue and Gardner have shown the occasional flashes that lead me to believe they'll both be solid by the time we see DJO and Crowder leaving Marquette.
It's easy to panic at this point, but I think it's premature to say that Buzz's high school recruits won't be ready when they are all sophomores or younger. Williams isn't contributing, I'll grant that, but we have four guys that are and another guy that is at least looking good at the high school level in Anderson.
And if Buzz continues to supplement with JUCOs, would that be such a bad thing? We currently have 3 JUCOs (Butler, Crowder, DJO) that look like they could possibly play at the next level. If he can keep bringing in that level of JUCO talent, we'll continue to be competitive. Though admittedly, we likely won't hit the heights most of us would like to see with a core of JUCOs.
Quote from: madtownwarrior on January 26, 2011, 03:43:26 PM
I fear we may not have the talent to replace the current JUCO leaders when they graduate with our HS recruit pipeline (the last 2 classes do not look stellar right now)...
I'm not worried about 2012-14. Are you remembering Jamil Wilson? he's a beast the next 3 years.
JR, will besolid starter next two years. Otule, shown enough for me to think he'll be a contributor for the next two. Vander Blue is going to be a player, his offence is really only disappointing to those who wanted him to be John Wall.
Gardner will be in better shape and will have more lateral quickness, he'll play some minutes the next 3 years. Then the other guys, ewil & jones.
I think this group is a good enough group of vets to try and roll the dice with some project bigs this year. We already have another pg and switchable. Two 4 year 4-5's would make us well rounded.
Look, in 08-09 Buzz only had one freshman direct from high school - Otule. Injured last year, but he is a contributor now in year three. And we get him for two more.
In 09-10 he had Maymon, Williams and Junior. Junior has progressed nicely given his injury. Williams has been a disappointment, but he has a lot of players in front of him. He will get his chance to step up next year. Maymon was a transfer
This year he has Blue, Jones, Smith and Gardner. Blue has been eratic and is going to need to work on his game. Same with Gardner. Jones is again in a numbers game. He will also be getting his chance with Buycks leaving though. Smith was a transfer
It is a little early to say that Buzz can't develop high school talent. The player with the most experience is a sophomore who was medically redshirted last year. You then have two sophomores and three freshmen. Three of these six are in the regular rotation...one gets sporadic minutes...two don't get any.
Is that really any different than most programs?
We need to recruit JUCO's because the majority of high school players we are bringing in will not be ready to contribute in the Big East until they are juniors. The problem is made worse because they keep transferring out before they develop.
Bilsu, lets not act like we have had a history of bringing good big men out of JC. Projects will miss, till they don't, and then it's awesome.