I was thinking about this last night. You know there have been negative comments on this board about JUCOs who were "non-qualifiers" that come out of high school. These are players that must put in two years at a JUCO, and earn a degree, in order to earn two additional years at a four year school. Currently Buycks and Crowder fit that description.
I know that there is a stigma attached to these guys, but let me say this. At least Buycks and Crowder have earned something academically. Yeah I know that a two year associates degree isn't a bachelors and doesn't open the same doors. However it is probably a better academic accomplishment than many players achieve their first two years at a four year school.
Now I certainly do hope that both of these individuals, as well as everyone else on our team, earns their four year degree. But at least these two have made a serious first step.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on January 11, 2011, 10:38:34 AM
I was thinking about this last night. You know there have been negative comments on this board about JUCOs who were "non-qualifiers" that come out of high school. These are players that must put in two years at a JUCO, and earn a degree, in order to earn two additional years at a four year school. Currently Buycks and Crowder fit that description.
I know that there is a stigma attached to these guys, but let me say this. At least Buycks and Crowder have earned something academically. Yeah I know that a two year associates degree isn't a bachelors and doesn't open the same doors. However it is probably a better academic accomplishment than many players achieve their first two years at a four year school.
Now I certainly do hope that both of these individuals, as well as everyone else on our team, earns their four year degree. But at least these two have made a serious first step.
As long as Buzz keeps getting JUCOs that are good kids who work and play hard, then they're a great addition to the team. The JUCO stigma is a result of the perception that, as a whole, you'll have more problems with JUCO players. I've never seen data, so I have absolutely no idea if the perception is reality.
That doesn't mean that there aren't many, many great kids coming out of JUCOs. Ultimately, Marquette will be judged by the kids that play for us. If our entire roster was made up of JUCO players, but there never was a hint of trouble, Marquette's reputation would be intact. On the other hand, if we recruited nothing but HS players and had a lot of trouble-makers, our reputation would be screwed. So far, I can't fault Buzz for the quality of young men he's bringing to Marquette.
Maybe one, but he did not come: Montrale Clark.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on January 11, 2011, 10:38:34 AM
I was thinking about this last night. You know there have been negative comments on this board about JUCOs who were "non-qualifiers" that come out of high school. These are players that must put in two years at a JUCO, and earn a degree, in order to earn two additional years at a four year school. Currently Buycks and Crowder fit that description.
Hmm...I'm not so sure this is right. Buycks and Crowder fit that description, but what about DJO and Fulce? Both of them transferred from JUCOs to Marquette with three years of eligibility. Which says to me that they only played their freshman year. I know it's possible to get a four-year degree in three years, but getting a two-year degree in one year while also balancing a full-time basketball schedule? Having gone to a two-year school before transferring to Marquette myself, I simply can't see that having happened.
Now granted, the two of them probably did do that, but I don't think the "must put in two years" is accurate. I think that they are simply allowed to transfer directly because they're not going from a D1 school to D1 school.
brew...Fulce, JFB and DJO qualified academically out of high school but went JUCO for other reasons (improve recruiting options, etc.). They didn't need to fulfill degree requirements and could leave after one year.
We've had more problems with kids straight out of high school than JUCO's - Maymon, Smith, Hazel...to name a few. From what I know, none of those kids were "bad" kids, and their departures from MU hinged more on their families/entourage, whatever you want to call it - seeking more PT, etc. Hazel..obviously was a slightly different story.
Buzz isn't going to recruit guys that have bad character. Period. He has connections at the JUCO level..and will do a lot of dilligence I'm sure with any player he brings into the program - JUCO or High School kid.
Many fans have NO idea what kind of background some of these kids come from - and to judge them, or Buzz is just ignorant. Thought it was pretty telling when Buzz said Jimmy Butler was basically homeless as a 6th or 7th grader. Sounds like Buycks has had a tough life as well. Never judge another man till you've walked a day in his shoes. Maybe his grades weren't good, had to go to 5 different high schools, due to Mom moving around to try to keep a job, etc. None of that means the kid isn't a good kid with potential..
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on January 11, 2011, 11:12:33 AM
brew...Fulce, JFB and DJO qualified academically out of high school but went JUCO for other reasons (improve recruiting options, etc.). They didn't need to fulfill degree requirements and could leave after one year.
JB was the only qualifier out of HS.
Fulce and DJO were non qualifiers and had to go to prep school and then JUCO.
Fulce was qualified after prep school and DJO got cleared by the NCAA in the Middle of his semester of his 1st semester of his JUCO year. That is why he could transfer right away.
Cheers all for that...thought it odd that we had so many JUCOs with 3 years of eligibility.
Quote from: GOMU1104 on January 11, 2011, 11:22:34 AM
JB was the only qualifier out of HS.
Fulce and DJO were non qualifiers and had to go to prep school and then JUCO.
Ahhh yes. Thank you very much. I had forgotton that. So if you go prep a year, and then go JUCO, do you have to earn a degree too?
I think the "stigma" attached to JUCO's is more a product of certain posters that are so discriminitory that they judge a person by lumping him in with a group as opposed to judging that person on his own merits and possibly the hurdles that they have had to overcome.
Pretty pathetic but expect the JUCO slander to continue.
Prep is just a 5th year of High School where you can retake some of your core classes and if you do better they will throw the old one out. Has nothing to do with College at all. JUCO or 4 year.
Quote from: kmwtrucks on January 11, 2011, 01:33:30 PM
Prep is just a 5th year of High School where you can retake some of your core classes and if you do better they will throw the old one out. Has nothing to do with College at all. JUCO or 4 year.
OK, then why did DJO and Fulce go JUCO then? If prep essentially erases their academic ineligibility, why didn't they go four year right away?
DJO was ruled ineligible after prep school went the Juco route and was deemed eligible during his freshman year of JUco.
Fulce commited to buzz out of HS. Buzz left tx an M , Fulce went to a prep, Fulce commited to UNO, Buzz left UNO Fulce went Juco, Buzz went to MU fulce comited to MU. he was never ineligible.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on January 11, 2011, 01:42:32 PM
OK, then why did DJO and Fulce go JUCO then? If prep essentially erases their academic ineligibility, why didn't they go four year right away?
Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe Fulce went to prep school out of high school then committed to Buzz at UNO.
When Buzz left UNO, Fulce opted not to go there. However, he would have had to sit out a year as a transfer had he gone to another four-year school right away. Rather than sit out a year (and have to choose a new four-year school on very short notice, given the timing of Buzz's departure from UNO) he decided to go play at a JUCO while taking more time to choose another four-year school.
This topic brings me to another interesting question. One of the disadvantages of taking a Juco is that typically you only get 2 years of eligibility left. They then have to learn the system, fit in with the team and make the jump to D-1 competition. Best case this takes half a season (Crowder is a great talent and its taken him this long to really hit his stride), leaving you with only 1.5 seasons of go contribution.
So here is the question. Is it better to have a player like Erik W. who has spent most of his time on the bench for 2 years BUT has been trained in the team and the system or is it better to have a Juco (like say Buycks, I think Crowder is really a unique talent which you can't expect to get usually) come in for only two years. Which is more likely to preform better as an upperclassman? Which is better for the team in general?
Quote from: NotAnAlum on January 11, 2011, 02:13:49 PMWhich is more likely to preform better as an upperclassman? Which is better for the team in general?
I think more than anything it depends on the individual. The advantage to a player like EWill is that not only is he familiar with the system but he also has the opportunity to make the rest of the team better by playing against them every day. Four-year players contribute to the team in their formative years even when they aren't getting significant on-court time by virtue of what they do in practice.
Looking at our own JUCOs, I think that Buzz has had an amazingly high success rate, possibly unprecedented. Three guys in JFB, DJO, and Crowder that all look like potential first or second-team all-conference type players. Buycks is looking like our biggest breakout player of the year. Fulce has been a great spark off the bench for 3 years now and is the definition of a "glue guy".
I think that the ideal is to build the program on 4-year players. It lets kids acclimate to the system and contribute from their freshman year, even if those contributions aren't all on the court. However, I still think that JUCOs can and should play an important role. In my opinion, they are best used to supplement needs. If a player transfers or you simply haven't been able to fill a hole at a certain position, find a suitable JUCO that can come in and contribute immediate minutes.
Buzz has used more JUCOs because after last year's class graduated, the cupboard was incredibly bare. I have a feeling we'll see fewer of them as he goes forward as head coach, but using them to fill needs and occasionally balance classes makes sense.
i definitely think that Buzz in a sense makes his own job harder when he relies heavily on JUCOs. a large number of JUCOs not only creates increased turnover because those players can only sign for 2 or occasionally 3 year stints, but i think it gets a little harder to recruit 4 years too. I dont think a coach will ever really be able to use his existing JUCO guys to persuade HS seniors to attend. a guy like JFB might be the extreme exception to the rule, but i think juco-heavy rosters make it difficult to forecast the direction of a team, available playing time, etc. Buzz's success rates on JUCOs has been incredible, but I am a little concerned that over time, 4 year players might get worried about jucos coming in and taking PT, or that it will be difficult to phase out the reliance on jucos as time wears on.
Quote from: MUBurrow on January 11, 2011, 03:20:32 PM
i definitely think that Buzz in a sense makes his own job harder when he relies heavily on JUCOs. a large number of JUCOs not only creates increased turnover because those players can only sign for 2 or occasionally 3 year stints, but i think it gets a little harder to recruit 4 years too. I dont think a coach will ever really be able to use his existing JUCO guys to persuade HS seniors to attend. a guy like JFB might be the extreme exception to the rule, but i think juco-heavy rosters make it difficult to forecast the direction of a team, available playing time, etc. Buzz's success rates on JUCOs has been incredible, but I am a little concerned that over time, 4 year players might get worried about jucos coming in and taking PT, or that it will be difficult to phase out the reliance on jucos as time wears on.
Well, to be fair, he does seem to be relying on them less. We don't see it yet on the court, but in his first class we saw Butler and Fulce, then DJO and Buycks. 2 a year is quite a bit. But last year it was just Crowder, the NJCAA player of the year, and this year we haven't had any inked up yet. My guess is that within 2-3 years you'll only see the occasional JUCO to fill holes and balance classes as needed.
Quote from: MUBurrow on January 11, 2011, 03:20:32 PM
i definitely think that Buzz in a sense makes his own job harder when he relies heavily on JUCOs. a large number of JUCOs not only creates increased turnover because those players can only sign for 2 or occasionally 3 year stints, but i think it gets a little harder to recruit 4 years too. I dont think a coach will ever really be able to use his existing JUCO guys to persuade HS seniors to attend. a guy like JFB might be the extreme exception to the rule, but i think juco-heavy rosters make it difficult to forecast the direction of a team, available playing time, etc. Buzz's success rates on JUCOs has been incredible, but I am a little concerned that over time, 4 year players might get worried about jucos coming in and taking PT, or that it will be difficult to phase out the reliance on jucos as time wears on.
The choice for our present senior and junior classes was jucos, transfers or nothing. Which of those 3 choices would you have preferred?
Quote from: Canadian Dimes on January 11, 2011, 02:01:21 PM
DJO was ruled ineligible after prep school went the Juco route and was deemed eligible during his freshman year of JUco.
Fulce commited to buzz out of HS. Buzz left tx an M , Fulce went to a prep, Fulce commited to UNO, Buzz left UNO Fulce went Juco, Buzz went to MU fulce comited to MU. he was never ineligible.
Ugh.
Joe Fulce committed to Texas A&M in Feb 2005, while at Plano High School.
Eventually, it was determined that he could not qualify for Texas A&M, so he had to go to Massanutten for a year. Just ask Fulce himself:
QuoteWhat made you decide to go to military school after committing to Texas A&M? The situation with A&M, I didn't qualify. I didn't have all my credits I needed. I had no other choice but to go to Massanutten, to prep school.
During that time, Buzz left TAMU for UNO.
Fulce decomitted from TAMU in January 2007.
He committed to UNO in April of 2007.
Buzz left UNO for MU in July 2007.
Fulce went to Tyler JUCO for the 2007-08 season and committed to MU in October 2007
Whether they qualified or not look at their personalities. Butler, Fulce, Crowder, Buyckes and DJO seem to be people I would not mind hanging around with.
Quote from: bilsu on January 11, 2011, 05:03:22 PM
Whether they qualified or not look at their personalities. Butler, Fulce, Crowder, Buyckes and DJO seem to be people I would not mind hanging around with.
Agreed.
It seems that Buzz is getting players with a certain fabric in them that is compatible with the University and program values.
I highly regard his selection process of JuCos. Plus, they can step in immediately and have the worth of a 4-5 star player who is a freshman, IMO.
Since we're on the topic of JuCos, here is the current list of JuCo commitments. Montraele is on there as uncommitted.
http://rivals.yahoo.com/jucojunction/basketball/recruiting/rankings/rank-2769;_ylt=Au6zb67yesilp61s4zQIaP5rWpB4
Quote from: Lennys Tap on January 11, 2011, 03:29:10 PM
The choice for our present senior and junior classes was jucos, transfers or nothing. Which of those 3 choices would you have preferred?
I don't have a preference in jucos vs transfers. They essentially do the same thing with the exception that transfers can be flashier. If you told me that the jucos would be who they are today? haha jucos. This certainly isnt a condemnation, just a voice of concern that Buzz makes his own job harder relying heavily on jucos. brewcity's right though, the recruiting record speaks for itself.
Quote from: bilsu on January 11, 2011, 05:03:22 PM
Whether they qualified or not look at their personalities. Butler, Fulce, Crowder, Buyckes and DJO seem to be people I would not mind hanging around with.
Think the feeling is mutual?
Buzz said it right the other day. You need to go after high school players.
"Williams believes the ideal way to maintain a high level of success is recruiting and developing high school players."
I know Ners is throwing out the HS transfer numbers, and that's all fine and dandy, but the JUCO pool is so much smaller it will skew those numbers.
Buzz knows you need guys here for four years and that is a more ideal situation than 2 years. It's why almost all of the top programs go after high school kids and MAYBE have 1 or 2 JUCO players on the squad at any given time, not five.
Hopefully Buzz wasn't just saying that but meant it.
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/11007/1116199-175.stm
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on January 11, 2011, 10:38:34 AM
I know that there is a stigma attached to these guys
Jucos with a stigma ... like Trevor Mbakwe?
Chicos...Of course you need to go after high school players. I dont think anyone disagrees with that, or Buzz' statement about high school players.
That being said, based on his career path/connections/success thus far...I wouldn't be surprised if we have at least one JUCO player on the team every year Buzz is around.
Do I think we will ever have 5 on the roster at the same time ever again...no. Frankly, I'm not so sure we add one as a part of the 2011 class.
In the end...as long as they are good people, good players, and fit the complexion of the roster...I'm cool with having a JUCO presence.
My philosophy is take the best players with a baseline level of character you are comfortable with - regardless of where they come from. I do agree that a player being in the MU system for 4 years definitely has its benefits to both the player and program - but to me the benefit likely does not exceed the type of production we are seeing from our current crop of JUCO's as 1st, 2nd and 3rd year players.
What I'm most pleased about is that Buzz has the roster (and JUCO and other connections) in place - to where we can hold a scholarship for the spring signing period - evaluate what the team really needs - and then go sign a quality kid in the spring - whether he be a transfer, JUCO, or high school player such as Gardner last spring. This is a HUGE advantage in my opinion, versus being "full" after the fall signing period.
When I heard JUCOs in the past, I thought of Bob Huggins and his band of over-aged and over-developed thugs at Cincinnati.
When I see the quality individuals (not players, but people) we've gotten from the junior college ranks under Buzz Williams it gives me an entirely different perspective. I love our guys, maybe especially our transfers like Buycks, DJO and Crowder. Tell me what "4 year player" we've had...ever...that would go over to an opponents bench to check on somebody's well-being after an inadvertent collision like DJO did vs. Pitt? Ever. That is the kind of guy Marquette University should be...and are...proud to call Warriors!
I'm certain Too Tan Tommy emphasizes the importance of good sportsmanship to his team on a daily basis.
Quote from: PuertoRicanNightmare on January 11, 2011, 08:02:37 PM
When I heard JUCOs in the past, I thought of Bob Huggins and his band of over-aged and over-developed thugs at Cincinnati.
When I see the quality individuals (not players, but people) we've gotten from the junior college ranks under Buzz Williams it gives me an entirely different perspective. I love our guys, maybe especially our transfers like Buycks, DJO and Crowder. Tell me what "4 year player" we've had...ever...that would go over to an opponents bench to check on somebody's well-being after an inadvertent collision like DJO did vs. Pitt? Ever. That is the kind of guy Marquette University should be...and are...proud to call Warriors!
It wasn't after a collision but I remember James going over to the Kentucky bench and congratulating Crawford on a great game after he fouled out.
I agree with your post completely. I though of Huggins' players and the JUCO's Crean brought in that outside of Marcus Jackson were pretty underwhelming. Buzz has found quality people who are also quality players. I don't mind going after JUCOs. As long as they play hard and represent the university well I don't really are what route they take to get here.
We went hard after Blackshear, Shaw, Hood, Harrison, Young, Faust, Dawson, Miller, and I'm sure other's. Why would anyone say Buzz is
not going after High School kids.
Quote from: PuertoRicanNightmare on January 11, 2011, 08:02:37 PM
When I heard JUCOs in the past, I thought of Bob Huggins and his band of over-aged and over-developed thugs at Cincinnati.
When I see the quality individuals (not players, but people) we've gotten from the junior college ranks under Buzz Williams it gives me an entirely different perspective. I love our guys, maybe especially our transfers like Buycks, DJO and Crowder. Tell me what "4 year player" we've had...ever...that would go over to an opponents bench to check on somebody's well-being after an inadvertent collision like DJO did vs. Pitt? Ever. That is the kind of guy Marquette University should be...and are...proud to call Warriors!
Yea, that whole Huggins at Cincinnati band of non-graduating thug feel to JUCO's had somewhat prejudiced me against JUCO's overall.
Seeing the type of seemingly great kids though that Buzz has brought to Marquette out of the JUCO ranks who also have been great on the court, i won't mind at all if Buzz continues to recruit and bring in kids from that talent pool.
Sure Buzz will mainly need to fill his roster via high school kids, but we ended up getting three very productive years from Butler and it looks like the odds are high that we'll get three very productive years from DJO. Crowder sure looks like he'll give us two very productive seasons and Buycks certainly has been a productive college basketball player also.
Many high school recruits either don't play much as freshman or if they play right away, their production is limited as they adjust to playing college kids. So given the pretty much immediate good to very good production Buzz has received from Butler, DJO, Crowder, and Buycks, i can't see reason why anyone would find would find it anywhere near a negative in regards to what Buzz has done so far when it comes to the bringing in of JUCO's.
All i see from it has been lots of productivity on the court from these JUCO kids and also kids who represent the university well off the court. What's been not to like so far?
Quote from: PuertoRicanNightmare on January 11, 2011, 08:02:37 PM
When I heard JUCOs in the past, I thought of Bob Huggins and his band of over-aged and over-developed thugs at Cincinnati.
When I see the quality individuals (not players, but people) we've gotten from the junior college ranks under Buzz Williams it gives me an entirely different perspective. I love our guys, maybe especially our transfers like Buycks, DJO and Crowder. Tell me what "4 year player" we've had...ever...that would go over to an opponents bench to check on somebody's well-being after an inadvertent collision like DJO did vs. Pitt? Ever. That is the kind of guy Marquette University should be...and are...proud to call Warriors!
+1. Try to recruit good kids and immerse them in the positive culture that is Marquette. The only people concerned with whether they are high schoolers, preps or jucos are the phonies concerned with how MU is "perceived" by the other phonies in their social network.
Quote from: PuertoRicanNightmare on January 11, 2011, 08:02:37 PM
When I heard JUCOs in the past, I thought of Bob Huggins and his band of over-aged and over-developed thugs at Cincinnati.
Or Tark the Shark at UNLV before him.