What has happened to the Gardner that played against Duke? He has barely played the last three games, but when he's been in the game he's looked slow, unathletic and somehow seems to open up nice interior driving and passing lanes for the opposition. Against Rutgers and Pitt the few times we've gone to him on the interior he's had problems even getting the ball up on the rim. Last night at one point he was almost walking (a slow trot) back on D and watched indifferently as a pass scooted by him for an easy lay-up. The kid has great hands and a nice touch around the hoop but I can see why Buzz doesn't play him much right now.
I'm disappointed because he was primed to be my new favorite after the Duke game. I'm not expecting him to be a star as a frosh, but 5-10 solid minutes a game from him would do wonders for us.
He has hit a wall against Big East competition. Hopefully it doesn't get into his head.
Whatever the reason, the dropoff has been dramatic.
He enters the game, gives up a basket, fails to grab a board on the offensive end, then gets beat down the floor and gives up another basket and sits the rest of the game.
I understand conference play is far more challenging, but it's suprising to see his dropoff has been so drastic and sudden.
Most team defenses get significantly better as the season progresses. They also have scouting reports on players and now know their tendencies. The players that do not improve as quick get left behind. Even Blue is losing playing time, because Otule, Buyckes and Crowder are improving at faster rate.
Quote from: ecompt on January 11, 2011, 09:13:48 AM
He has hit a wall against Big East competition. Hopefully it doesn't get into his head.
Maybe Buzz lost him.
It looks to me like DG is putting some weight back on.
I agree Gardner is looking slow on the floor and a little apathetic on the bench but let's be accurate when we criticise a young freshman. I just re-watched his brief 28 seconds of play. First, he was guarding Cooley and Crowder was guarding Martin. Martin beats Crowder, not Gardner, on a one on one spin move. Then we inbound and Butler forces up a poor shot, ND rebounds and Martin, who is Crowder's man, not Gardner's, beats everyone down court for an easy layup. Gardner was trying for a rebound, Crowder, Buycks, and Blue all should of gotten back but they failed to hustle. Finally, Blue forces a drive and, uncharacteristically, Gardner misses a quick shuttle pass and Buzz takes him out. My biggest concern is he gets disappointed with Buzz's unique subbing style and transfers out. I have no doubt he can be a stud for us if he gets past this rough spot.
Quote from: denverMU on January 11, 2011, 09:53:21 AM
I agree Gardner is looking slow on the floor and a little apathetic on the bench but let's be accurate when we criticise a young freshman. I just re-watched his brief 28 seconds of play. First, he was guarding Cooley and Crowder was guarding Martin. Martin beats Crowder, not Gardner, on a one on one spin move. Then we inbound and Butler forces up a poor shot, ND rebounds and Martin, who is Crowder's man, not Gardner's, beats everyone down court for an easy layup. Gardner was trying for a rebound, Crowder, Buycks, and Blue all should of gotten back but they failed to hustle. Finally, Blue forces a drive and, uncharacteristically, Gardner misses a quick shuttle pass and Buzz takes him out. My biggest concern is he gets disappointed with Buzz's unique subbing style and transfers out. I have no doubt he can be a stud for us if he gets past this rough spot.
I also noticed in his "blink of an eye" stint on the court that he seemed to be in first gear while the game was at full tilt. As you state above, much of this was not "his fault" and I agree that the qucick yank by Buzz, can be demoralizing for a freshman. But, by the same token, in BEast play, we can't afford to allow a player to learn at the risk of the team losing momentum. He has the potential and we need "bigs" so let's hope he realizes his role and Buzz's methods.
Quote from: NickelDimer on January 11, 2011, 09:19:10 AM
Whatever the reason, the dropoff has been dramatic.
He enters the game, gives up a basket, fails to grab a board on the offensive end, then gets beat down the floor and gives up another basket and sits the rest of the game.
I understand conference play is far more challenging, but it's suprising to see his dropoff has been so drastic and sudden.
Gardner is the same player, he has probably even improved. Bottom line is the talent level between the preseason cupcakes and the BE is almost unfathomable. An all world player against Prairie view can look like a walkon against the BE.
If he keeps the proper attitude his time will come. If not he will have an opportunity to play against the likes of Prairie View every game.
Quote from: denverMU on January 11, 2011, 09:53:21 AM
... Gardner misses a quick shuttle pass and Buzz takes him out. My biggest concern is he gets disappointed with Buzz's unique subbing style and transfers out. I have no doubt he can be a stud for us if he gets past this rough spot.
Man to man is a team defense. Getting beat off a dribble move is not worse than failing to get over and defend on helpside imo. Getting beat down court is getting beat down court, dosen't matter if it is your guy or not.
The coach should not do things because he is worried about a guy transferring. Thats a good way to fail by letting the inmates run the asylum. He should do what gives the team the best chance at succeeding.
Gardner will be fine. He has already exceeded most peoples expectations. He is a freshman, let him develop
I also think there is a risk reward issue. Against the cupcakes DG can go pump in 12 quick points and only maybe give up 10. he aint scoring 12 against BE bigs and will likely give up more than 10.
Gardner will be a ton better next year after a summer of him and Jae Crowder going at it. That wasn't able to happen last summer.
If Gardner has the patience and gets himself in shape, he will learn the defense and be able to execute it. It's up to him. He can be an excellent contributor, and I think he will be.
Ox is in the best conference. Tough transition at this level. The game is moving too fast for him now.
Quote from: Canadian Dimes on January 11, 2011, 10:09:17 AM
Gardner is the same player, he has probably even improved. Bottom line is the talent level between the preseason cupcakes and the BE is almost unfathomable. An all world player against Prairie view can look like a walkon against the BE.
If he keeps the proper attitude his time will come. If not he will have an opportunity to play against the likes of Prairie View every game.
Your point on the level of the competition is spot on. unfortunatley, it looks to me like Gardner will struggle with the pace of the game. He is a big guy and will likely not get much quicker. That will make it very difficult for him to defend in the BE.
Gardner has lost somewhere around 50 lbs in last year. He is a freshman. He put up big #'s against Duke because of a lack of a scouting report on him. Now there is a scouting report on him and it is to attack him on defense, outrun him down the floor, and take away his right hand. Another year of conditioning and adjusting to his body and he will be fine. A year from now, it will be a much more legitimate debate about playing time. Also, as the team gets through the year, the defense (what!? We play defense?) is becoming more sophisticated as more switches and rotations are added. Against Duke, he leaned on one guy who set a career high for points and rebounds. Gardner just got his share to offset this, so no one noticed. If we had, say, a healthy Liam, or what we thought Liam might be, DG might be redshirting to work on his conditioning. He will be fine and will be a stud before he graduates.
Quote from: CTWarrior on January 11, 2011, 09:05:06 AM
What has happened to the Gardner that played against Duke? He has barely played the last three games, but when he's been in the game he's looked slow, unathletic and somehow seems to open up nice interior driving and passing lanes for the opposition. Against Rutgers and Pitt the few times we've gone to him on the interior he's had problems even getting the ball up on the rim. Last night at one point he was almost walking (a slow trot) back on D and watched indifferently as a pass scooted by him for an easy lay-up. The kid has great hands and a nice touch around the hoop but I can see why Buzz doesn't play him much right now.
I'm disappointed because he was primed to be my new favorite after the Duke game. I'm not expecting him to be a star as a frosh, but 5-10 solid minutes a game from him would do wonders for us.
You got all that above out of 1.5 min against Pitt, 0 min against WV and 39 seconds last night against ND. Gardner needs a chance.
The play with the slow trot you refer to, DG was the first one down and stayed on his man, Buycks was down late and his man ,Martins, scored.
Quote from: muchamps on January 11, 2011, 07:22:05 PM
You got all that above out of 1.5 min against Pitt, 0 min against WV and 39 seconds last night against ND. Gardner needs a chance.
I saw enough of him against ND to realize he isn't quite ready for BE play.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on January 12, 2011, 07:58:41 AM
I saw enough of him against ND to realize he isn't quite ready for BE play.
This.
He got blow by twice in the time he was on the floor against ND. Let him learn to play some defense, and then we can have the DG needs more minutes discussion.
The jury is really out whether the BE is too fast for DG. Perhaps he is better suited for a slower conference such as the Big Ten. Can he really play faster next year, or, isn't he capable of playing at this level?
He is a freshman big. Please catalog the impact freshman bigs. How about we wait a couple of years before we let the bus run over him.
What is tough for Williams, Jones and Gardner is that they will get pulled if they make a mistake. I think this makes it impossible for them to perform well, because when they get out there all they are thinking is don't screw up. I think it would be much better for Buzz to send them out there telling them they are going to play three minutes and play as hard as they can in those three minutes. Much better than yanking them after 20 seconds when something goes wrong. Some body scores on Gardner he gets yanked. Someone scores on Butler he still plays 30 + minutes. It is hard to come off the bench cold and compete with a player that has already been playing.
Quote from: msbjim on January 12, 2011, 08:42:16 AM
The jury is really out whether the BE is too fast for DG. Perhaps he is better suited for a slower conference such as the Big Ten. Can he really play faster next year, or, isn't he capable of playing at this level?
These posts are hilarious! Earlier in the season people thought Ox should be starting and playing 30 minutes a game. Now people are wondering if he'll EVER be able to contribute in the Big East. What a difference a month makes!
He's a freshman big man playing in arguably the best conference in the country. Give the kid some time. He's going to be a special player for MU in the years to come.
Quote from: bilsu on January 12, 2011, 09:07:27 AM
What is tough for Williams, Jones and Gardner is that they will get pulled if they make a mistake. I think this makes it impossible for them to perform well, because when they get out there all they are thinking is don't screw up. I think it would be much better for Buzz to send them out there telling them they are going to play three minutes and play as hard as they can in those three minutes. Much better than yanking them after 20 seconds when something goes wrong. Some body scores on Gardner he gets yanked. Someone scores on Butler he still plays 30 + minutes. It is hard to come off the bench cold and compete with a player that has already been playing.
No offense but this isn't middle school ball. JFB has a proven track record of success and has earned his playing time. DG hasn't, and if it costs us, he needs to sit until he earns his playing time.
Quote from: bilsu on January 12, 2011, 09:07:27 AM
What is tough for Williams, Jones and Gardner is that they will get pulled if they make a mistake. I think this makes it impossible for them to perform well, because when they get out there all they are thinking is don't screw up. I think it would be much better for Buzz to send them out there telling them they are going to play three minutes and play as hard as they can in those three minutes. Much better than yanking them after 20 seconds when something goes wrong. Some body scores on Gardner he gets yanked. Someone scores on Butler he still plays 30 + minutes. It is hard to come off the bench cold and compete with a player that has already been playing.
Gardner did not get pulled because he got scored on. He got pulled because, like many freshmen, he was completely lost for the entire 40 seconds he was on the court. Considering how many close games MU has been a part of, Buzz can't afford to have 20% of the players on the floor two steps behind for any extended period of time.
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on January 12, 2011, 09:10:48 AM
These posts are hilarious! Earlier in the season people thought Ox should be starting and playing 30 minutes a game. Now people are wondering if he'll EVER be able to contribute in the Big East. What a difference a month makes!
He's a freshman big man playing in arguably the best conference in the country. Give the kid some time. He's going to be a special player for MU in the years to come.
I for one believe Ox should be playing more minutes and believe that he can be a solid contributor right now. He is far superior to Otule on offense and about on par on D. except shot blocking. He is going to develop by playing against BEast competition, but he won't riding the pines. I have said this repeatedly. But some on this board are fixated on Otule and start urinating on Ox to advance their opinion.
I have said repeatedly that both have strengths and weaknesses, and Ox should be getting 15 minutes a game. For whatever reason, Buzz is not allowing this and he gives those minutes to Crowder and Fulce. Crowder is not a post, and neither is Fulce. Nothing against them--Crowder is a stud and should be playing at Forward--Fulce is a role player
The knock on Gardner is that he is not in condition. Not buying that. He played about 19 minutes against Duke, I believe, and besides, I do not believe Otule can go full out for 30 minutes a game either. So "free Ox" and give him the back up minutes, other than 1.5 minutes and then be yanked.
Did you see him run up and down the court against ND?
I would Like to see EW, JJ, DG, get 3-4 minutes in a row, I also think you should hide those guys on D. Particular DG and JJ. Have DB, DJO, Butler, and Crowder on the floor when they are out there. This would take some pressure off them on D and O, and let them get up and down the floor and get into a flow. 45 seconds is just not enough for a Freshman. Fulce can excel in that type of Min's.
I think Buzz is a great coach but you kind of see this every year. As soon as Big East play starts, its good by to anyone who isn't a mainstay. I get his approach, he likes having guys that know what they're doing out there, but at the same time I think why MU is sometimes in the tight situations is because throughout the course of the game, there is a physical wear both endurance wise and actual health wise. I don't care how hard Jimmy is working, after 30+ min in a game he's going to be more tired and less able to keep his head in the game than if DG, EW, or JJ had taken just 5 min of that time. While Jimmy may not be the best example it certainly would hold true for someone like Buycks who has an injury bug and shouldn't really be overused. I get it, its not high school ball there's a steep learning curve but these guys aren't going to develop without some BE minutes, I mean look at EW he came in fairly highly touted and now seems like a flop, I think he's got the skill set just hasn't had the time to develop it, practice and game are completely different. This isn't even addressing the whole causing kids to transfer issue which I really believe is part of it. Look I'm not really bummed that Hazel, Maymon and Smith transfered but it seems like this is a continuing trend under Buzz and honestly it worries me that we won't be able to get sleeper high school players because they'll feel forced to the bench, kind of an aside but still.
Quote from: DrDestiny911 on January 12, 2011, 09:59:40 AM
I think Buzz is a great coach but you kind of see this every year. As soon as Big East play starts, its good by to anyone who isn't a mainstay. I get his approach, he likes having guys that know what they're doing out there, but at the same time I think why MU is sometimes in the tight situations is because throughout the course of the game, there is a physical wear both endurance wise and actual health wise. I don't care how hard Jimmy is working, after 30+ min in a game he's going to be more tired and less able to keep his head in the game than if DG, EW, or JJ had taken just 5 min of that time. While Jimmy may not be the best example it certainly would hold true for someone like Buycks who has an injury bug and shouldn't really be overused. I get it, its not high school ball there's a steep learning curve but...
For the most part, the non-conference portion of the college basketball season is the "preseason." You see a lot more players get minutes in those games and not just because they're typically blow-outs. Coaches want to see what they have and how players perform in game situations. By the time the conference season comes around, most teams compress their rotations down to the best, most effective 7-9 guys.
Quote
...these guys aren't going to develop without some BE minutes, I mean look at EW he came in fairly highly touted and now seems like a flop, I think he's got the skill set just hasn't had the time to develop it, practice and game are completely different.
Calling Williams a flop is just plain ignorant. He's a sophomore who has spent 1.5 seasons playing behind MU's 2 best players (Hayward and Butler) during that time. Crowder has also proved to be a much more polished player at this point. Not every player who's rated in the top 100 is going to show up on campus and be Carmelo Anthony. Those players are few and far between. I fully expect EWill to be a big contributor in the next 2 seasons.
Quote
This isn't even addressing the whole causing kids to transfer issue which I really believe is part of it. Look I'm not really bummed that Hazel, Maymon and Smith transfered but it seems like this is a continuing trend under Buzz and honestly it worries me that we won't be able to get sleeper high school players because they'll feel forced to the bench, kind of an aside but still.
A vast majority of high school players go to college and find themselves sitting on the bench. The number of freshmen who have an impact right away is a very small percentage.
Quote from: ecompt on January 11, 2011, 09:13:48 AM
He has hit a wall against Big East competition. Hopefully it doesn't get into his head.
I could argue that Duke is better than every team inteh BE
Quote from: willie warrior on January 12, 2011, 09:23:15 AM
I for one believe Ox should be playing more minutes and believe that he can be a solid contributor right now. He is far superior to Otule on offense and about on par on D.
Otule is way superior to Ox on defense...it's really not even close.
Quote from: DrDestiny911 on January 12, 2011, 09:59:40 AM
This isn't even addressing the whole causing kids to transfer issue which I really believe is part of it. Look I'm not really bummed that Hazel, Maymon and Smith transfered but it seems like this is a continuing trend under Buzz and honestly it worries me that we won't be able to get sleeper high school players because they'll feel forced to the bench, kind of an aside but still.
If a player wants to transfer because he is not getting playing time he doesn't deserve in the first place, then transfer.
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on January 12, 2011, 09:10:48 AM
These posts are hilarious! Earlier in the season people thought Ox should be starting and playing 30 minutes a game. Now people are wondering if he'll EVER be able to contribute in the Big East. What a difference a month makes!
He's a freshman big man playing in arguably the best conference in the country. Give the kid some time. He's going to be a special player for MU in the years to come.
what a difference playing real teams versus cupcakes. Compare apples to apples.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on January 12, 2011, 10:34:39 AM
If a player wants to transfer because he is not getting playing time he doesn't deserve in the first place, then transfer.
That's not my point, I actually agree with you there. What I am saying is what kind of message does that send to kids we're trying to recruit that may be three borderline four star recruits. It can't be a good one when we consistently have at least one guy a year transfer, especially mid-season (basically saying get me outta here), I mean I know if I were being recruited by Buzz that would by my biggest question to him. "Why should I play at MU when these other so called highly touted recruits couldn't wait just another semester to get out (Thereby burning a year of eligibility)."
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on January 12, 2011, 10:33:46 AM
Otule is way superior to Ox on defense...it's really not even close.
I would say so too... but I'm really high on Otule after the ND game. I can't tell if it's afterglow or not.
I'm still really *really* excited to watch Ox develop. The big man's got some moves!
Quote from: DrDestiny911 on January 12, 2011, 10:49:56 AM
That's not my point, I actually agree with you there. What I am saying is what kind of message does that send to kids we're trying to recruit that may be three borderline four star recruits. It can't be a good one when we consistently have at least one guy a year transfer, especially mid-season (basically saying get me outta here), I mean I know if I were being recruited by Buzz that would by my biggest question to him. "Why should I play at MU when these other so called highly touted recruits couldn't wait just another semester to get out (Thereby burning a year of eligibility)."
Honestly, I don't think most recruits put that much thought into it. Seeing guys like Wade, Wes and Lazar in the NBA makes significantly more of an impact than seeing the third team PG transfer mid-season.
Quote from: willie warrior on January 12, 2011, 09:23:15 AM
I for one believe Ox should be playing more minutes and believe that he can be a solid contributor right now. He is far superior to Otule on offense and about on par on D. except shot blocking. He is going to develop by playing against BEast competition, but he won't riding the pines. I have said this repeatedly. But some on this board are fixated on Otule and start urinating on Ox to advance their opinion.
I have said repeatedly that both have strengths and weaknesses, and Ox should be getting 15 minutes a game. For whatever reason, Buzz is not allowing this and he gives those minutes to Crowder and Fulce. Crowder is not a post, and neither is Fulce. Nothing against them--Crowder is a stud and should be playing at Forward--Fulce is a role player
The knock on Gardner is that he is not in condition. Not buying that. He played about 19 minutes against Duke, I believe, and besides, I do not believe Otule can go full out for 30 minutes a game either. So "free Ox" and give him the back up minutes, other than 1.5 minutes and then be yanked.
You are the only one.
And you, Atlanta, are one of the Ox urinators.
Quote from: willie warrior on January 12, 2011, 06:09:14 PM
And you, Atlanta, are one of the Ox urinators.
You are entitled to your opinion that Gardner is at this point in his career a legit Big East player. I'm simply pointing out facts that I see from watching the games. I'm not sure what you are doing, but it isn't based on any knowledge of basketball. Are you blind perhaps? Is that why you don't see what most other posters see in Gardner? That he is not ready for the level of competition he's facing in the Big East.
Does this sound like I'm "urinating" on him?
Quote from: ATL MU Warrior on January 07, 2011, 09:45:18 AM
Neither Otule or Gardner are perfect. I am glad that both are on our team and look forward to them both getting better. At this point, I think Otule brings more to the position.
Or this?
Quote from: ATL MU Warrior on January 02, 2011, 07:37:26 PM
I'm not trying to single out Gardner, I like him as a player and I think he's going to be a good player for us if he can get his body right. But right now, in my opinion based on watching the games, he's clearly a defensive liability when matched up against a mobile, athletic big guy. Otule is a much better option.
Or this?
QuoteQuote from: warriors1991 on December 30, 2010, 02:35:09 PM
I'll reply to the DG questions, I wrote almost the same thing in a different thread.
DG is a good offensive player. Defensively he's a massive liability. I specifically watched him last night on the defensive end and it's like he's not even trying or moving. He gets schooled on offensive rebounds like a 4th grader (no jumping at all) and then when he gets hit with a foul he drops his shoulders and has the body language of a little kid. [quote ]It looked like Jae yelled at him when he did that last night.
And don't tell me about conditioning and he's still too heavy and blah blah. He's playing about 3 minutes of defense, he's really going to have to work harder and try a LOT harder or he's not going to see the court and that's our loss because there's a lot of good things about DG and loads of potential.
I'm not trying to hammer a 19 year old kid; I really like him and his potential but wow his laziness on the defensive end is concerning.
MU ATL WARRIOR: These are good observations. And I hope he figures out how hard he needs to go sooner rather than later. We're a much better team with him getting minutes if he can hold his own on the defensive end.
Give it up already. You are in the vast minority with your opinion that he is ready. That's fine, but deal with it, don't turn it into other people are "urinating" on a member of the team while you are the only one who is somehow supporting him.
The best way for MU to finish their conference record at something well below .500 is to 'force' minutes on the 9-11th man on the bench. Our three principal subs are Blue, JC and Joe. Blue will get about 20 minutes, JC around 15 and Joe 'Mr. Glue' Fulce about 10. Otule will get the fewest as a starter, maybe 15. With that math, there's 140 minutes left for the 4 key players. That's 35 minutes per guy for each of JB, DJO, Buycks, and Jae. Maybe that 140 total goes down by 10 minutes among the 'Big 4' but not more than that.
Obviously the exact amount will be impacted by fouls, injury, matchups, etc. Think how much (and how well) JC played against Rutgers when DB was modestly injured. I don't recall exactly but I think he was in the upper 20s that night. I do know that DB only did 11.
I think Gardner's minutes come if and when Otule has foul trouble. EWill and Jamail get spot time, almost exclusively in the first half or in 'garbage' time unless Fulce weakens or an injury crops up. Both a good young players who will be expected to contribute more next year.
Gardner will garner more playing time. But I think Buzz is managing the games...putting the guys in the best position to win.
If Ox manhandles a weak posterior team, then he'll see some more time.
But our current team success has been pressure on the ball and quick transition scoring, none of which suits DG's style.
He's a keeper for sure. A Damon Key down the road...huge impact player as he matures and gets more fitness for this conference play.
Quote from: jsglow on January 12, 2011, 07:39:17 PM
The best way for MU to finish their conference record at something well below .500 is to 'force' minutes on the 9-11th man on the bench. Our three principal subs are Blue, JC and Joe. Blue will get about 20 minutes, JC around 15 and Joe 'Mr. Glue' Fulce about 10. Otule will get the fewest as a starter, maybe 15. With that math, there's 140 minutes left for the 4 key players. That's 35 minutes per guy for each of JB, DJO, Buycks, and Jae. Maybe that 140 total goes down by 10 minutes among the 'Big 4' but not more than that.
Obviously the exact amount will be impacted by fouls, injury, matchups, etc. Think how much (and how well) JC played against Rutgers when DB was modestly injured. I don't recall exactly but I think he was in the upper 20s that night. I do know that DB only did 11.
I think Gardner's minutes come if and when Otule has foul trouble. EWill and Jamail get spot time, almost exclusively in the first half or in 'garbage' time unless Fulce weakens or an injury crops up. Both a good young players who will be expected to contribute more next year.
Well said jsglow. I like the potential of Ox and he is clearly superior on the offensive end than on the defensive end at this stage of his young career. He will get the chance to be a beast again this year in the big east. If he works hard and continues to develop he can be a Damon Key type offensive force as he moves into his upper-class years. Its tough to get minutes as Freshman Big Man on any competitive team.
Quote from: willie warrior on January 12, 2011, 09:23:15 AM
I for one believe Ox should be playing more minutes and believe that he can be a solid contributor right now. He is far superior to Otule on offense and about on par on D. except shot blocking. He is going to develop by playing against BEast competition, but he won't riding the pines. I have said this repeatedly. But some on this board are fixated on Otule and start urinating on Ox to advance their opinion.
I have said repeatedly that both have strengths and weaknesses, and Ox should be getting 15 minutes a game. For whatever reason, Buzz is not allowing this and he gives those minutes to Crowder and Fulce. Crowder is not a post, and neither is Fulce. Nothing against them--Crowder is a stud and should be playing at Forward--Fulce is a role player
The knock on Gardner is that he is not in condition. Not buying that. He played about 19 minutes against Duke, I believe, and besides, I do not believe Otule can go full out for 30 minutes a game either. So "free Ox" and give him the back up minutes, other than 1.5 minutes and then be yanked.
I for another, agree with you. Every min he plays this year, pays dividends now and next year. Next season he will be "the center" and start if coach invest now. There's no replacement for experience.
Quote from: 79Warrior on January 11, 2011, 10:45:54 AM
Your point on the level of the competition is spot on. unfortunatley, it looks to me like Gardner will struggle with the pace of the game. He is a big guy and will likely not get much quicker. That will make it very difficult for him to defend in the BE.
Really? He played very well against Duke.
I don't think you can reduce this to BEast competition. Gardner like most freshmen, is inconsistent, doesn't know what it takes to be a good defender, and needs some time to mature. More than most freshmen, he needs to get his body in D1 playing shape.
Quote from: ATL MU Warrior on January 12, 2011, 07:11:24 PM
You are entitled to your opinion that Gardner is at this point in his career a legit Big East player. I'm simply pointing out facts that I see from watching the games. I'm not sure what you are doing, but it isn't based on any knowledge of basketball. Are you blind perhaps? Is that why you don't see what most other posters see in Gardner? That he is not ready for the level of competition he's facing in the Big East.
Does this sound like I'm "urinating" on him?
Or this?
Or this?
Give it up already. You are in the vast minority with your opinion that he is ready. That's fine, but deal with it, don't turn it into other people are "urinating" on a member of the team while you are the only one who is somehow supporting him.
No Sir Atlanta--but you continue to throw your slippery inuendoes around--are you blind perhaps, or do not have any basketball knowledge. Others could ask the same of you.
No I am not blind, just wear glasses for reading. And I will stand my knowledge of basketball to yours any day. You do not know me any more than I know you. So lets knock off the personal knocks.
Quote from: MUSF on January 12, 2011, 09:46:06 PM
Really? He played very well against Duke.
Really? I seem to recall that the guy he was guarding lit us up for something like 25 points and 10+ rebounds.
I think that is the problem with this argument. One has to look at his whole game defensive and offensive to tell if he is ready. Right now he is the weak link on defense. However, if Buzz wants some instant (half court) offense, he will call on him. He is role player now but I expect he will develop the full package in the coming years. I would actually like to see Buzz call a play out of a timeout which sets up Ox to take a 3 pointer. I hear he has a very good outside shot.
Quote from: willie warrior on January 13, 2011, 06:28:53 AM
No Sir Atlanta--but you continue to throw your slippery inuendoes around--are you blind perhaps, or do not have any basketball knowledge. Others could ask the same of you.
No I am not blind, just wear glasses for reading. And I will stand my knowledge of basketball to yours any day. You do not know me any more than I know you. So lets knock off the personal knocks.
And calling someone a "urinator" isn't a personal knock?
If I held the same opinion on this matter as you, I'm sure that others would question my basketball knowledge. And rightfully so.
And for the last time, I like Ox and believe he will be a key contributor for our team in the years to come. This year, unless the matchups dictate or Otule gets in foul trouble, he should sit on the bench and earn no more than the spot minutes he is getting.
Quote from: DrDestiny911 on January 12, 2011, 10:49:56 AM
I mean I know if I were being recruited by Buzz that would by my biggest question to him. "Why should I play at MU when these other so called highly touted recruits couldn't wait just another semester to get out (Thereby burning a year of eligibility)."
I can't think of an easier question for Buzz to answer. If a kid is asking him that, he might as well sign the LOI right then and there. Recruits consistently talk about how direct Buzz is, and how he makes them no promises, and doesn't hand anything to anyone. There's your answer. If you are willing to come in and work, do what's necessary to be part of what we're trying to do...etc., etc.
Quote from: DrDestiny911 on January 12, 2011, 10:49:56 AM
I mean I know if I were being recruited by Buzz that would by my biggest question to him. "Why should I play at MU when these other so called highly touted recruits couldn't wait just another semester to get out (Thereby burning a year of eligibility)."
Leaving at the semester does not cost the player a year of eligibility. In fact, the player is able to play sooner, than if he transferred after the season. Maymon is playing right now for Tennessee (albeit - not many minutes), and Jamil Wilson is sitting out this entire season. So Jamil transferred in June of 2010, and won't play until November of 2011.
In cases like Maymon and Smith it was all about immediate gratification - if 15 minutes per game wasn't enough as a freshman...clearly there was a level of impatience. Lastly, Hazel was basically kicked off the MU team - you may recall he never got 1 minute of time after playing in the first 8 or so games of the 2008 season. He had an off court issue.
Bottom line..I wouldn't worry about any of the 3 cases you mention. The only gray area case would be DJ Newbill.
Quote from: ATL MU Warrior on January 13, 2011, 07:18:28 AM
And calling someone a "urinator" isn't a personal knock?
If I held the same opinion on this matter as you, I'm sure that others would question my basketball knowledge. And rightfully so.
And for the last time, I like Ox and believe he will be a key contributor for our team in the years to come. This year, unless the matchups dictate or Otule gets in foul trouble, he should sit on the bench and earn no more than the spot minutes he is getting.
That only came after you laid down the gauntlet. Here are a few others of yours in the past on others "a dips--t";" most annoying person in the world"; "BS thread" etc.
Now I will officially close this line of comments regarding personal attacks, etc. and move on to MU Basketball. You have your opinions on Otule/Ox, and I have mine, so let's let the future show what happens.
Calling someone a 'urinator' is an insult? What, you don't urinate?
Quote from: leever on January 13, 2011, 02:27:31 PM
Calling someone a 'urinator' is an insult? What, you don't urinate
Please! The man said "Ox Urinator." There is a difference! A very Real difference!
Quote from: willie warrior on January 13, 2011, 09:57:46 AM
That only came after you laid down the gauntlet. Here are a few others of yours in the past on others "a dips--t";" most annoying person in the world"; "BS thread" etc.
Now I will officially close this line of comments regarding personal attacks, etc. and move on to MU Basketball. You have your opinions on Otule/Ox, and I have mine, so let's let the future show what happens.
agreed.