All in all, I thought MU played ok. I liked the hustle, they just couldn't make shots at times and Pitt was on fire from 3 point land that allowed them to build the lead. We didn't have an answer for McGhee. Pitt is a very balanced team with good upperclassman experience.
Wish Cadougan was more of an offensive threat - he didn't even take a shot.
Our defense is absolutely atrocious.... Interior, perimeter, and help side are all really bad
I liked our offense as well and think we played well enough to win but...our D is horrible. We still have trouble rebounding but 1/2 our guys seem to be switching all screens and the other 1/2 aren't which eventually leads to a wide open 3 if the opponent runs about 3 ball screens. I don't know...if we were more of a "vanilla" defense I think we'd have better results.
Pitt is good. They are who we thought they were. There is a reason they are #5 in the country and have won 47-48 at home. And when they rain 3's.....well, we just aren't going to win that game. It appears to me that our perimeter players can't get through screens and when they drop down to help, are glacial in their recovery to the shooter. Otule and Gardner were not ready to stop McGee. Fulce just isn't big enough but he had some nice baskets. Apparently, he was born without a conscience on some of them, though. Turning point of the game was when Jae picked up his second foul. Tie game, 8 minutes to go and Pitt goes off. Like they are supposed to. Ah, well, I had this as a loss. Suck it up and beat the Irish on Monday.
Pitt got us on skates..played like we did last year..lots of dribble drive penetration, kick outs, ball rotations/reversal..hard to not give up open 3 looks. Somehow though..we've got to do a better job. But, it is hard when a team shoots 69% from the 3 - I don't care if they got a lot of good looks, that is still exceptional shooting.
Pitt is next to impossible to beat at their place. Think they've won 48 of their last 50.
Pitt is Number 5 team in the country. We competed well, but when we needed a critical stop/make we just couldn't get job done. McGhee was a difference maker for them. Otule let us down today.
What a poorly officiated game. Not to take anything away from Pitt, they were clearly the better team today and deserved the win but could that crew have called it any tighter?
Pitt was lights out from 3 and strong on the boards. I thought there could have been a few more fouls called late, but they were simply the better team. We kept it close but couldn't put the last run together that we needed. Almost exactly what I expected.
We'll have more chances against top teams and hopefully make more of it. As long as our losses are like this one and we get a few big wins (UConn and 'Cuse come to mind) we can still get to 12 BEast wins and get into the tourney comfortably.
Quote from: muarmy81 on January 08, 2011, 03:23:29 PM
I liked our offense as well and think we played well enough to win but...our D is horrible. We still have trouble rebounding but 1/2 our guys seem to be switching all screens and the other 1/2 aren't which eventually leads to a wide open 3 if the opponent runs about 3 ball screens. I don't know...if we were more of a "vanilla" defense I think we'd have better results.
See Sugar's CS post from the other day. Liked the effort but no defensive concept. We were at a mismatch disadvantage going in but way too many missed rotations on defense...basically uncontested threes and PIP. No excuse for all the open looks--that is on Buzz's system.
Are the defensive rotation deficiencies due to poor schemes or poor execution?
PITT is very good and tough at home.
MU mishaps: Half court offense was terrible
Rebounding
Blocked shots by PITT, 6 to 0
Bad shots when MU got it to 8 with like five minutes left.
Overall, its what most thought would happen, but could have been closer.
Not much to say. They kept battling, our defense was poor, rebounding struggled, we took care of the ball very well but felt we often took shots that had no chance among the trees.
Effort was good but the result was hardly surprising.
Quote from: tower912 on January 08, 2011, 03:32:41 PM
Are the defensive rotation deficiencies due to poor schemes or poor execution?
All of the above...Buzz's history proves his system is average at best. When we have two defenders rotating to the ball consistently and leaving the shooter or driver unguarded...and then having really late rotations from players in the hot zone--it is both. Game after game.
Pitt keeps playing like this and they are national champs. Duke could not have beaten them today.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on January 08, 2011, 03:37:26 PM
Not much to say. They kept battling, our defense was poor, rebounding struggled, we took care of the ball very well but felt we often took shots that had no chance among the trees.
Effort was good but the result was hardly surprising.
Pretty much what I thought as well. I think we played well and our weaknesses came as no surprise. Pitt was shooting the lights out, and stronger on the inside and the boards.
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on January 08, 2011, 03:39:14 PM
All of the above...Buzz's history proves his system is average at best. When we have two defenders rotating to the ball consistently and leaving the shooter or driver unguarded...and then having really late rotations from players in the hot zone--it is both. Game after game.
I agree for the most part..but think today's game was more a result of brilliant offensive execution by Pitt..they looked like us last year - great ball movement, drive kick, and great shooters shooting even better than usual. A tough combo.
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on January 08, 2011, 03:39:14 PM
All of the above...Buzz's history proves his system is average at best. When we have two defenders rotating to the ball consistently and leaving the shooter or driver unguarded...and then having really late rotations from players in the hot zone--it is both. Game after game.
I think Buzz should study Rice's defense (Rutgers). Even though we won that game. Their defense impressed me.
Quote from: AnotherMU84 on January 08, 2011, 03:40:03 PM
Pitt keeps playing like this and they are national champs. Duke could not have beaten them today.
Agree that Pitt looked pretty stellar, however, that we really had a chance to make it close when they turned it over on five straight possessions and we went on an 8-0 run. Instead, we gave up two or three easy buckets in a row and Pitt stretched the lead again. While the three point shooting was how Pitt built their lead early in the game, the story of this game was really our inability to defend on the interior, especially every time it seemed like we were getting back in the game.
MU really cut down on it's turnovers. Only 2.
Quote from: tower912 on January 08, 2011, 03:32:41 PM
Are the defensive rotation deficiencies due to poor schemes or poor execution?
I agree that it's both. I don't agree with the "in the passing lane" approach to ball-you-man defense. Yes, you can create deflections and turnovers but with that risk you also end up with a lot of easy back door passes for buckets.
But you also see Gardner, Cadougan, Otule very slow with their rotations which is part of a poor understanding and execution of the defensive scheme. I'm always squeamish when I see Gardner's man go set a ball screen because he's just so slow at recovering to his man.
I think with his current personnel Buzz should stick to a Wiscy type defense which is strict man to man defense with little doubling, trapping, switching on ball screens, and jumping of the passing lanes. Just work to keep your man in front of you, contest the shot, and BOX OUT.
I was very impressed with Pitt. I thought we played well, kept it within reach late, but we lost to a much better team on the road. It will be interesting to see where this Pitt team ends up this year. Dixon is a great coach. I'd really like a win on Monday against that school from South Bend.
Quote from: muarmy81 on January 08, 2011, 03:23:29 PM
I liked our offense as well and think we played well enough to win but...our D is horrible. We still have trouble rebounding but 1/2 our guys seem to be switching all screens and the other 1/2 aren't which eventually leads to a wide open 3 if the opponent runs about 3 ball screens. I don't know...if we were more of a "vanilla" defense I think we'd have better results.
Agree.. It seems that if the opposing coaches watch the reasons why we break down they will be able to devise a scheme to find a wide open jumper EVERY TIME DOWN THE COURT. Once someone loses thier man or a dribble drive happens off a pick or not our recovery is like a jail break. Usually not very effective.
Good news
Marquette scored 1.24 points per possession
Our TO% was 3%. That's awesome
We didn't get crushed on offensive rebounding percentage. Only lost 37% to 46%
Bad news
Pitt had 1.44 points per possession. They scored 1.61 ppp in the first half.
We allowed Pitt to score an eFG% of 70%!
let me repeat that
We allowed Pitt to score 1.44 ppp and an eFG% of 70%!
What. The. F*ck.
In what has been a repeating pattern and especially true in our losses...our opponents come out hot from behind the arc in the 1st half and then MU makes (over) adjustments at halftime and we get killed inside--to answer's Henry's question about today.
- 1st Half: 8-12 or 67% on Treys
- 2nd Half: 11-14 or 79% on Twos
We do not have a well-thought out defensive system and we do not execute well it with our personnel--time after time, bunny or BE.
Quote from: Henry Sugar on January 08, 2011, 04:27:47 PMBad news
Pitt had 1.44 points per possession. They scored 1.61 ppp in the first half.
We allowed Pitt to score an eFG% of 70%!
let me repeat that
We allowed Pitt to score 1.44 ppp and an eFG% of 70%!
Out of curiosity, do you think there's an answer on this team now? Is this a case where the players need to mature, or is it more endemic? Does Buzz need to hire a defensive assistant to sort this out? If so, can you think of anyone who might fit the bill? Clearly we are very efficient offensively but between our 3-point defense and defensive rebounding, there's work to do. I just wonder if it can be fixed this year or if it's a longer term fix.
Also, 1.44 ppp allowed is the worst defensive performance in Buzz's tenure.
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on January 08, 2011, 04:39:30 PM
In what has been a repeating pattern and especially true in our losses...our opponents come out hot from behind the arc in the 1st half and then MU makes (over) adjustments at halftime and we get killed inside--to answer's Henry's question about today.
- 1st Half: 8-12 or 67% on Treys
- 2nd Half: 11-14 or 79% on Twos
We do not have a well-thought out defensive system and we do not execute well it with our personnel--time after time, bunny or BE.
70% defensive eFG% in the 1H
70% defensive eFG% in the 2H
Not to pile on, but late in the game one of the announcers said that Pitt had 2 fast break points. I don't know if that's accurate, but in any case Pitt scored the vast majority of its points out of its half court offense. Almost none in transition. That means we allowed Pitt to score 89 points when we were largely set up and ready to play the defense we wanted to play.
Buzz said that God keeps giving you the same test until you pass. The halfcourt d will be tested all game against ND on Mon.
Pitt is a better team.
Our defense sucks. Why the hell would somebody suggest that Buzz needs to hire a defensive coach to help sort things out? That is Buzz's job.
DJO did not have the stroke tody, but his aggresiveness of taking it to the hole was great.
No inside game today--Otule and Gardner did not come to play. Fulce is not the answer in the post. Both Otule and gardner must play and progress.
Buycks did a great job today.
Blue did not do much, and his mid range/long range shots are atrocious.
Buzz went to "If all else fails, try the three man weave at the top of the key". Dumb.
Only two TO's and we still had our ass handed to us.
Loved Fulce's tip in for the other team.
This is the poorest defensive display I have seen by MU in a long time.
A day in the BEast. We have lots more coming up.
Quote from: willie warrior on January 08, 2011, 05:00:56 PM
Our defense sucks. Why the hell would somebody suggest that Buzz needs to hire a defensive coach to help sort things out? That is Buzz's job.
This is the poorest defensive display I have seen by MU in a long time.
A day in the BEast. We have lots more coming up.
Personally, I think you answered your own question there. Listen, Buzz is a third year HC. He is a very good recruiter and offensive coach, and a below-average defensive coach (it seems). Look at Steve Lavin. Is he a bad coach for hiring Gene Keady as an assistant to help shore up weak areas, or is he a genius? I'd love to see Buzz add someone with that mindset to help coach this team and mentor him as a coach. He may not have the pull to get someone like Keady, but there may be numerous D2 and D3 coaches out there who would take that role as a hope of opening their own door into D1 basketball. I don't think there's any shame in a leader surrounding himself with other smart minds to help further his own success. Seems perfectly logical to me.
Bottom line, we can beat Pitt on a neutral court. Time will tell
Quote from: Henry Sugar on January 08, 2011, 04:27:47 PM
Good news
Marquette scored 1.24 points per possession
Our TO% was 3%. That's awesome
We didn't get crushed on offensive rebounding percentage. Only lost 37% to 46%
Bad news
Pitt had 1.44 points per possession. They scored 1.61 ppp in the first half.
We allowed Pitt to score an eFG% of 70%!
let me repeat that
We allowed Pitt to score 1.44 ppp and an eFG% of 70%!
What. The. F*ck.
At this point this is an unnecessary roughness penalty...but consider these facts.
- The two turnovers is the single lowest game for MU in at least 15 years of recorded history
- Of all the games in the past 15 years of an Offensive Efficiency of 124 or greater, MU has lost only one game--the infamous Jean Felix Game vs. Bama
That is how craptacular our defensive effort was today. Buzz has a one day turnaround to fix his disaster of a scheme.
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on January 08, 2011, 10:45:15 PM
At this point this is an unnecessary roughness penalty...but consider these facts.
- The two turnovers is the single lowest game for MU in at least 15 years of recorded history
- Of all the games in the past 15 years of an Offensive Efficiency of 124 or greater, MU has lost only one game--the infamous Jean Felix Game vs. Bama
Oh man, I had finally gotten that Bama game out of my head. Went out to SD on spring break to watch them play, can still replay in my head Novak narrowly missing the open three at the buzzer.
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on January 08, 2011, 10:45:15 PM
At this point this is an unnecessary roughness penalty...but consider these facts.
- The two turnovers is the single lowest game for MU in at least 15 years of recorded history
- Of all the games in the past 15 years of an Offensive Efficiency of 124 or greater, MU has lost only one game--the infamous Jean Felix Game vs. Bama
That is how craptacular our defensive effort was today. Buzz has a one day turnaround to fix his disaster of a scheme.
Actually, that points out to me how tough it is to win a game when something completely unforeseen goes so well for the other team. Who saw that Jean Felix would be unstoppable, and that Pitt would shoot lights out from 3? If Jean Felix or Pitt had gone cold, maybe we would've won those games.
Quote from: AlienWarrior on January 08, 2011, 06:57:32 PM
Bottom line, we can beat Pitt on a neutral court. Time will tell
Unfortunately, if we don't start winning some big games, we will never meet on a neutral court, unless you call MSG neutral for Pitt. I think about half their players are from NY and they usually play several regular season games there.
Quote from: mug644 on January 09, 2011, 01:43:44 AM
Actually, that points out to me how tough it is to win a game when something completely unforeseen goes so well for the other team. Who saw that Jean Felix would be unstoppable, and that Pitt would shoot lights out from 3? If Jean Felix or Pitt had gone cold, maybe we would've won those games.
Yes...if there wasn't a pattern this year of teams having "Felix Games" against us. A
pattern of hitting high percentage threes in the first, having MU adjust at half time, and then the team hitting a high percent of PIP (see Duke, Zaga, Wisky, Vandy, Pitt). That points out to me that MU has a bad defensive scheme.
Buzz's philosophy is to out-Offensive Efficiency the other team--but when you need stops, you need a scheme on D. For goodness sake, Bucknell had a "Jean Felix Game" on us.
Quote from: mugrad2006 on January 09, 2011, 12:18:37 AM
Oh man, I had finally gotten that Bama game out of my head. Went out to SD on spring break to watch them play, can still replay in my head Novak narrowly missing the open three at the buzzer.
I feel your pain as I was there as well. We couldn't complain with the look that Novak got but I still have nightmares of that maroon #23 (Felix) lighting us up. Sure enough he couldn't buy a basket the next game.
What really sucked was that the MU/Bama was the first game of the tourney and the excitment was gone for the remaining 5 games at the site. At least there was plenty of other things to do for St. Paddy's day weekend in SD.
Remember the bomb threat as that first game was delayed an hour? We were unable to leave the parking lot to get to the arena but were fortunate to have parked near Jay Bilas and Dick Enberg who were cordial and talked college hoops. Enberg was carrying cue cards full of info for what appeared to be all 4 games for the day. (I don't think it was an accident that Bilas was paired with Enberg for the past few years) Jim Harbaugh was also stuck in the same lot as he had borught his kids to the game and was sporting a MU gold T-shirt. Harbaugh was friendly as well and even tossed a football around that some other fans had in their car. It was no shocker to see that his games seats were much better than ours.
We lost to a very hot shooting team. It's very difficult to beat a team that is shooting so well as Pitt. When we worked hard to defend the outside shot, Pitt would score easy close up shots without MU contesting them. It showed that Marquette is very athletic, but does not have the big, physical presence underneath to match up with teams like Pitt. We need a big, strong player underneath. Gardner showed that he is not that guy yet. Otule needs to add more muscle. But, hey, overall, we are a good team that will win a lot of games on hustle.
Quote from: Danny Noonan on January 09, 2011, 09:17:00 AM
I feel your pain as I was there as well. We couldn't complain with the look that Novak got but I still have nightmares of that maroon #23 (Felix) lighting us up. Sure enough he couldn't buy a basket the next game.
What really sucked was that the MU/Bama was the first game of the tourney and the excitment was gone for the remaining 5 games at the site. At least there was plenty of other things to do for St. Paddy's day weekend in SD.
Remember the bomb threat as that first game was delayed an hour? We were unable to leave the parking lot to get to the arena but were fortunate to have parked near Jay Bilas and Dick Enberg who were cordial and talked college hoops. Enberg was carrying cue cards full of info for what appeared to be all 4 games for the day. (I don't think it was an accident that Bilas was paired with Enberg for the past few years) Jim Harbaugh was also stuck in the same lot as he had borught his kids to the game and was sporting a MU gold T-shirt. Harbaugh was friendly as well and even tossed a football around that some other fans had in their car. It was no shocker to see that his games seats were much better than ours.
Yeah, I remember the bomb threat. It was kinda surreal. Thinking back on being a dumb college student, I realize I didn't really have any fear. I was more annoyed that the game was delayed and just wanted to get in to watch some hoops.
The only consolation I could take in watching the later games was that UCLA, and more importantly their dance team, were there. Solid weekend of basketball. The first ever World Baseball Classic was being played over at Petco as well, and since the US had been eliminated we scalped great seats for cheap to see the DR play Cuba. Absolutely beautiful field over in the Gas Light district.
The UCLA dance squad was definitely Impressive! Too bad Immensity didn't make the trip
What was the deal with Amoroso? Obvioulsy he transferred to the Aztecs but what about the timing? Why couldn't it wait until after the tourney as I did not see him at the game?
I'll wait for the KenPom to officially update, but if my math matches up with Pomeroy's (I do possessions per team; he does possessions per game), 1.44 ppp allowed is the worst defensive outing since 2002-2003. If it's not, it's right there.
Other notably bad defensive outings
2011 - Pitt (1.44 ppp)
2005 - Louisville (1.43 ppp - 99-52, screw you Pitino)
2006 - West Virginia (1.41 ppp - 104-85, the Gansey game)
2006 - Rutgers (1.30 - the snow game
2005 - UAB (1.37 ppp)
2009 - Pitt (1.33 ppp - did you know Pitt has players from NY?)
2009 - Nova (1.33 ppp)
2003 - Kansas (1.30 ppp)
2007 - Pitt (1.30 ppp)
2008 - UConn (1.30 ppp)
Also, note how many of these games are really memorable, for the wrong reason. Finally, Alabama only had 1.29 ppp, for those tracking at home.
Quote from: msbjim on January 09, 2011, 09:23:12 AM
We lost to a very hot shooting team. It's very difficult to beat a team that is shooting so well as Pitt. When we worked hard to defend the outside shot, Pitt would score easy close up shots without MU contesting them. It showed that Marquette is very athletic, but does not have the big, physical presence underneath to match up with teams like Pitt. We need a big, strong player underneath. Gardner showed that he is not that guy yet. Otule needs to add more muscle. But, hey, overall, we are a good team that will win a lot of games on hustle.
No offense, but I read/hear things like this and it annoys me. Because what you are saying is "oh, we got unlucky" and "we'll never be able to control that until we get a big underneath".
That attitude ignores the defensive issues with Buzz's approach.
Quote from: Henry Sugar on January 09, 2011, 09:53:56 AM
I'll wait for the KenPom to officially update, but if my math matches up with Pomeroy's (I do possessions per team; he does possessions per game), 1.44 ppp allowed is the worst defensive outing since 2002-2003. If it's not, it's right there.
Other notably bad defensive outings
2011 - Pitt (1.44 ppp)
2005 - Louisville (1.43 ppp - 99-52, screw you Pitino)
2006 - West Virginia (1.41 ppp - 104-85, the Gansey game)
2006 - Rutgers (1.30 - the snow game
2005 - UAB (1.37 ppp)
2009 - Pitt (1.33 ppp - did you know Pitt has players from NY?)
2009 - Nova (1.33 ppp)
2003 - Kansas (1.30 ppp)
2007 - Pitt (1.30 ppp)
2008 - UConn (1.30 ppp)
Also, note how many of these games are really memorable, for the wrong reason. Finally, Alabama only had 1.29 ppp, for those tracking at home.
The 1.44PPG held in Statsheet which just posted with the final stats. I also went back 15 years in their advanced stats database--and it confirms that this was the
worst MU defensive efficient game in at least 15 years. Brutal
(worse, MU's ORtg posted and was revised to 1.31 which is outstanding--yet we still got run out of The Pete)
I'm not the basketball experts as you all are but ,when I saw the score, here were my thoughts:
8 pt loss to # 5 on their home court is not that bad
3 pt. shooting like that is going to open up the defense for an inside game and they have the upper hand. I was glad we didn't get blown out by their incredible shooting percentages and felt good that we could stay close despite . I guess the glass is half full
Quote from: elephantraker on January 09, 2011, 11:39:50 AM
I'm not the basketball experts as you all are but ,when I saw the score, here were my thoughts:
8 pt loss to # 5 on their home court is not that bad
3 pt. shooting like that is going to open up the defense for an inside game and they have the upper hand. I was glad we didn't get blown out by their incredible shooting percentages and felt good that we could stay close despite . I guess the glass is half full
You are right, it is half full which is the frustrating thing. With that offensive efficiency on the road--especially against a great Pitt team--we win 99.9% of the time. But, the frustrating thing is, this team has a continued pattern of letting great and cupcake teams shoot lights out on the perimeter, and then we adjust to stop the arc and the great teams then kill us inside. We have no overall defensive scheme which is Buzz's M-O. His philosophy is to efficiently outscore the other team...whereas if we want to be Sweet 16, we need team defense. This is not a one game thing.
Honestly, I cannot even tell you his defensive philosophy as it appears so scattered. The players are confused too.
Pitt was a bad match-up for MU at the BC last year and this year is no different. Pitt simply has size, physicality and experience that MU lacks (not to mention the home court advantage yesterday). Pitt also had MU well-scouted taking advantage of MU's proclivity to double and triple team the ball. Hopefully the team and the coaching staff can learn something from this game.
Quote from: Danny Noonan on January 09, 2011, 09:17:00 AM
I feel your pain as I was there as well. We couldn't complain with the look that Novak got but I still have nightmares of that maroon #23 (Felix) lighting us up. Sure enough he couldn't buy a basket the next game.
What really sucked was that the MU/Bama was the first game of the tourney and the excitment was gone for the remaining 5 games at the site. At least there was plenty of other things to do for St. Paddy's day weekend in SD.
Remember the bomb threat as that first game was delayed an hour? We were unable to leave the parking lot to get to the arena but were fortunate to have parked near Jay Bilas and Dick Enberg who were cordial and talked college hoops. Enberg was carrying cue cards full of info for what appeared to be all 4 games for the day. (I don't think it was an accident that Bilas was paired with Enberg for the past few years) Jim Harbaugh was also stuck in the same lot as he had borught his kids to the game and was sporting a MU gold T-shirt. Harbaugh was friendly as well and even tossed a football around that some other fans had in their car. It was no shocker to see that his games seats were much better than ours.
+1, there as well.