Make that at least 100 free throws every day.
We cannot continue to miss the easy ones in games where they could be the difference between winning and losing.
Some of our guys are really bad at the line. What is with that?
Pretty soon teams late in the game are going to throw 3 guys on Jimmy and give us the free in bounds before fouling any of the other 4 on the floor.
Maybe the Ox should play late, he makes them pretty solidly.
Quote from: MU Avenue on January 05, 2011, 09:18:22 PM
Make that at least 100 free throws every day.
We cannot continue to miss the easy ones in games where they could be the difference between winning and losing.
Some of our guys are really bad at the line. What is with that?
Junior isn't a very good shooter and has no confidence right now...so there's 2 of the misses down the stretch..and Buycks was ice cold coming off the bench to shoot his 2 that he missed. Jimmy and DJO did fine...and Buycks for the season is 81%.
Honestly, I don't know that it'd help. Unless you bring in the student section and tell them to do everything they can to distract the shooter...it's just not the same shooting against a blank backboard and shooting in front of a hostile environment of 10,000+ that all want you to miss. Now open practice to the students and have them wave big heads at our boys and we might be on to something...
Quote from: brewcity77 on January 05, 2011, 09:25:52 PM
Honestly, I don't know that it'd help. Unless you bring in the student section and tell them to do everything they can to distract the shooter...it's just not the same shooting against a blank backboard and shooting in front of a hostile environment of 10,000+ that all want you to miss. Now open practice to the students and have them wave big heads at our boys and we might be on to something...
I never heard that practicing something doesn't improve your ability at the action you are practicing. Even if sometimes there are distractions and sometimes not. It's called muscle memory. The more you do it the better the chance you have of succeeding under pressure.
Buzz says in practice that you cannot replicate being dead tied and having the game on the line in front of 10,000 fans and on TV. He's right. The muscle memory stuff is a bunch of junk.
Buzz says making free throws are about mental toughness, not technique. He's right about that. I'm too lazy to look it up but we had a thread hear where Shaq was a 90% FT shooter in practice but barely 50% in a game. Practice is just not the same.
That's why they do not practice free throws. To be clear, Buzz does not take the limited amount of time the NCAA allows for team practice each week and devote it to FTs. Someone here said it like the orchestra conductor having everyone practice scales together. FT (or scales) are what you do own your own away from organized practice. If we have to waste time shooting 100 FTs every day, then let's assume we'll play even worse defense (because we'll have less time to practice it.)
Quote from: AnotherMU84 on January 05, 2011, 09:48:37 PM
Buzz says in practice that you cannot replicate being dead tied and having the game on the line in front of 10,000 fans and on TV. He's right. The muscle memory stuff is a bunch of junk.
Buzz says making free throws are about mental toughness, not technique. He's right about that. I'm too lazy to look it up but we had a thread hear where Shaq was a 90% FT shooter in practice but barely 50% in a game. Practice is just not the same.
That's why they do not practice free throws. To be clear, Buzz does not take the limited amount of time the NCAA allows for team practice each week and devote it to FTs. Someone here said it like the orchestra conductor having everyone practice scales together. FT (or scales) are what you do own your own away from organized practice. If we have to waste time shooting 100 FTs every day, then let's assume we'll play even worse defense (because we'll have less time to practice it.)
Who said anything about taking up team practice time to practice free throws? Saying that the muscle memory thing is a bunch of junk is your opinion. In my opinion practicing free throws improves your ability to make them under pressure.
It's on the players to practice FT's on their OWN TIME!
And yes, practice does make you better.
Read This
For Free Throws, 50 Years of Practice Is No Help
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/04/sports/basketball/04freethrow.html?pagewanted=all
Basketball in the United States has changed in myriad ways over the decades, from flat-footed set shots to dunks, from crotch-hugging uniforms to baggy knee-length shorts, from the dominance of American players to the recent infusion of international stars.
But one thing has remained remarkably constant: the rate at which players make free throws.
Since the mid-1960s, college men's players have made about 69 percent of free throws, the unguarded 15-foot, 1-point shot awarded after a foul. In 1965, the rate was 69 percent. This season, as teams scramble for bids to the N.C.A.A. tournament, it was 68.8. It has dropped as low as 67.1 but never topped 70.
In the National Basketball Association, the average has been roughly 75 percent for more than 50 years. Players in college women's basketball and the W.N.B.A. reached similar plateaus — about equal to the men — and stuck there.
The general expectation in sports is that performance improves over time. Future athletes will surely be faster, throw farther, jump higher. But free-throw shooting represents a stubbornly peculiar athletic endeavor. As a group, players have not gotten better. Nor have they become worse.
"It's unbelievable," Larry Wright, an adjunct professor of statistics at Columbia, said as he studied the year-by-year averages. "There's almost no difference. Fifty years. This is mind-boggling."
There are measures in other sports that have shown similar consistency, like golf scores or batting averages, but none of them are as straightforward as lobbing a ball toward a basket.
The consistency of free-throw percentages stands out when contrasted with field-goal shooting over all. In men's college basketball, field-goal percentage was below 40 percent until 1960, then climbed steadily to 48.1 in 1984, still the highest on record. The long-range 3-point shot was introduced in 1986, and the overall shooting percentage has settled in at about 44 percent.
Utah is as good as anyplace to untangle the numbers. It is home to three of the top 10 free-throw shooting teams in men's Division I — No. 1 Southern Utah (80.5 percent), No. 4 Utah (78.5 percent before Tuesday's game against New Mexico) and No. 7 Utah Valley (77.0 percent, but not officially recognized by the N.C.A.A. because the program is in its final season of provisional status as a Division I team).
In the middle of Southern Utah's high-paced basketball scrimmage here last week, Coach Roger Reid stopped everything.
Players knew what to do. Their chests heaving in exhaustion, they silently lined up and shot free throws. A miss meant a sprint around the court.
"A lot of coaches give it lip service, but when you say that games are won and lost at the free-throw line, you better back it up," said Reid, who understands that individual players and teams can improve free-throw shooting through better technique and repetition. When Reid arrived at Southern Utah two years ago, he inherited a team that ranked 217th in free-throw percentage.
There is little correlation between free-throw percentages and winning percentages. Only one of the 25 best shooting teams, No. 2 North Carolina, is also in the latest Associated Press top 25 rankings. Southern Utah has a losing record.
That is why, despite accounting for more than 20 percent of scoring in men's college basketball and just below 20 percent in the N.B.A., free throws receive a fraction of the attention from coaches, players and fans. That is, until something considered free proves costly.
Last season, Memphis was 38-2 despite making only 61 percent of its free throws, missing an average of nearly 10 a game. The Tigers lost the national championship game after missing 4 of 5 free throws in the final 72 seconds against Kansas, which had made a late 3-point shot to tie the game and won in overtime.
This season, Utah outshot opponents from the line in overtime victories over Brigham Young and Colorado State, and 1-point victories over Gonzaga and New Mexico. Those victories will probably carry Utah (20-8) to the N.C.A.A. tournament.
Ray Stefani, a professor emeritus at California State University, Long Beach, is an expert in the statistical analysis of sports. Widespread improvement over time in any sport, he said, depends on a combination of four factors: physiology (the size and fitness of athletes, perhaps aided by performance-enhancing drugs), technology or innovation (things like the advent of rowing machines to train rowers, and the Fosbury Flop in high jumping), coaching (changes in strategy) and equipment (like the clap skate in speedskating or fiberglass poles in pole vaulting).
Those factors can help explain why swimming records seemingly fall at every international event, runners broke through the four-minute-mile barrier, field-goal kickers are more accurate than ever, bowling a 300 game is not as unlikely as it once was, and home run numbers surged in major league baseball.
"There are not a lot of those four things that would help in free-throw shooting," Stefani said.
Strength, for example, is not a significant advantage. W.N.B.A. players have outshot their N.B.A. counterparts twice in the past three years, and women in college have been close to the men's average for two decades.
There has not been a serious innovation in the way free throws have been shot for 50 years. The few still using a one-hand set shot from the chest, or even an underhand style, generally gave way to a flat-footed version of the burgeoning over-the-head jump shot. And although international players have helped the free-throw rate — Wright, the Columbia statistician, calculated that foreign-born players in the N.B.A. this season are shooting about 1.4 percentage points higher than their American-born counterparts — it cannot fully explain why the league is threatening the record high of 77.1, set in 1974.
Equipment, too, is virtually unchanged from 50 years ago. There have been only slight alterations to the ball, the rims and the backboards.
That leaves only one of Stefani's four factors that might reasonably affect free-throw averages: coaching.
Coaches admit to baselines of acceptability for their players and teams. The average, apparently, is about 75 percent in the N.B.A. and 69 percent in college basketball. When numbers slip, time is devoted to improvement. When they rebound, the game's other facets take precedence.
"A lot of coaches don't want to spend time on it in practice," said Blake Ahearn, a former Missouri State player who is the N.C.A.A.'s leader in career free-throw percentage (94.6) and now leads the N.B.A. Development League as a guard for the Dakota Wizards. "They want to work on defenses and offenses and schemes."
But even practice has never made perfect. The general rule is that players, in games, shoot 10 percentage points below their practice average. The difference is pressure and fatigue, hard to replicate in an empty arena.
Utah Valley and Chicago State were tied with a minute left in last week's game in Orem, Utah. About two-thirds of a winning team's points in the final minute typically come from the free-throw line, which is why Utah Valley wanted the ball in Ryan Toolson's hands. His career free-throw average is 94 percent.
Toolson was fouled on a drive with 51 seconds left. Swish, swish.
He was fouled with 18 seconds left. Swish, swish.
He was fouled with 9 seconds left. Swish, bonk.
The crowd murmured. The game was momentarily in doubt. But after Utah Valley escaped with a victory, thanks to two more free throws, Coach Dick Hunsaker praised Toolson as Mr. Clutch.
"Except that free throw," Toolson whispered to himself.
Quote from: chren21 on January 05, 2011, 09:54:49 PM
Who said anything about taking up team practice time to practice free throws? Saying that the muscle memory thing is a bunch of junk is your opinion. In my opinion practicing free throws improves your ability to make them under pressure.
I only wrote that each of our players must shoot at least 100 free throws every day. I did not say it need be during organized practices.
I would think the players would want to develop reliable shots from the line.
On a related matter, is Buzz Williams really so indifferent about free throw shooting and about having his players become much better from the line?
I hope not.
It would be ridiculous if Buzz were not deeply concerned about how inconsistent and unreliable we are from the line.
Quote from: MU Avenue on January 05, 2011, 10:05:06 PM
I only wrote that each of our players must shoot at least 100 free throws every day.
They probably do.
I would agree with that .. they all probably shoot at least 100 FT a day, and have since early in high school. So now what should they do?
your article did nothing to change my opinion.
Quote from: chren21 on January 05, 2011, 10:13:39 PM
your article did nothing to change my opinion.
50 years of practice and no one is getting better does not change your mind?
FT shooting is what it is. We cannot change what we are and no "muscle memory" or 100 FTs a day is going to change it. Stop whining about it and start looking at offense and defensive execution, that we can change.
Quote from: 94Warrior on January 05, 2011, 09:58:21 PM
It's on the players to practice FT's on their OWN TIME!
And yes, practice does make you better.
Not necessarily. Practice (repetition, really) makes "permanent". So if you are practicing / repeating using proper form, yes, the practice will make you better. If, however, you are practicing / repeating improper form..... Either way, you build muscle memory, and if its "improper-form muscle memory", you're just digging a deeper hole.
I hope they do practice free throws in practice, at least enough so the coaches can identify improper form, and then let the players continue to practice on their own, hopefully building "proper" muscle memory.
And yes - the other variables, being tired, out of breath, loud noise etc. wouldn't hurt.
Bumping this post that compares FT shooting eras by coach....probably the most comparable stat. As a reminder, Buzz's first two teams are the all time leaders in FT% at 73.3%, This year's team is now 68.5% after a slow start (had been improving until the past two games). According to Pomeroy, the national average this season is 68.4%. So, the 2010-11 team is still better than Al's team's average of 67.8%.
Road inexperience (Caddy and Blue 2-7), Buycks leg injury (0-2) led to a subpar FT shooting tonight. The rest were 18-23 or 78.3%.
http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=21476.0
EDIT: Typo on Buzz's #'s from today's post...should be 73.3%. Also MU84, this season FT% stat I note is from the MU Site and includes today's game vs. ESPN's...so YTD it is 68.5%. Thanks
ESPN has different numbers
Year Games FT% FTA Notes
2011 14 69.10% 343
2010 34 74.10% 660
2009 35 72.80% 338
2008 35 70.60% 785
2007 34 66.90% 783
2006 31 73.20% 635 Novak 97%, 74 FTA
2005 31 71.0% 451 Novak 91%, 146 FTA
2004 31 74.7% 683 Novak 91%, 68 FTA
2003 38 77.1% 857
2002 33 69.20% 720
Quote from: AnotherMU84 on January 05, 2011, 10:22:14 PM
50 years of practice and no one is getting better does not change your mind?
FT shooting is what it is. We cannot change what we are and no "muscle memory" or 100 FTs a day is going to change it. Stop whining about it and start looking at offense and defensive execution, that we can change.
Actually, the article suggests that practice does help. It says that when teams" percentages slip too much, "time is devoted to improvement" and when things rebound, coaches focus on other things. Why would coaches devote time to improvement (I.e., practice) if it didn't help? And how would a team's percentage improve if the practice didn't help?
The article says that players tend to shoot 10% below their practice average in games due to pressure and fatigue, but does not even remotely suggest that practice doesn't improve performance.
Not sure what article you read, but an article discussing that free throw percentages haven't improved over the years doesn't even remotely support your point.
Quote from: AnotherMU84 on January 05, 2011, 10:22:14 PM
50 years of practice and no one is getting better does not change your mind?
FT shooting is what it is. We cannot change what we are and no "muscle memory" or 100 FTs a day is going to change it. Stop whining about it and start looking at offense and defensive execution, that we can change.
Whining? Who's whining? I will say it again. My opinion is different than yours, deal with that fact.
Good points StillAWarrior.
Arguing over this isn't going to change anything anyways.
I'm sure they all practice free throws. I think there comes a point where it's really not going to help a lot more.
Quote from: 94Warrior on January 05, 2011, 09:58:21 PM
It's on the players to practice FT's on their OWN TIME!
And yes, practice does make you better.
Not all coaches agree. Bo Ryan, Coach K, John Wooden, etc mandated it in practice. I certainly understand Buzz's reason for not doing it because of the limitations on time.
Quote from: StillAWarrior on January 05, 2011, 10:36:44 PM
Actually, the article suggests that practice does help. It says that when teams" percentages slip too much, "time is devoted to improvement" and when things rebound, coaches focus on other things. Why would coaches devote time to improvement (I.e., practice) if it didn't help? And how would a team's percentage improve if the practice didn't help?
The article says that players tend to shoot 10% below their practice average in games due to pressure and fatigue, but does not even remotely suggest that practice doesn't improve performance.
Not sure what article you read, but an article discussing that free throw percentages haven't improved over the years doesn't even remotely support your point.
I don't know what you guys think will be accomplished by taking precious team practice time for a team that is now shooting 69% (and above the national average). Where do you think shooting a million FTs and getting the muscle memory down (which doesn't exist) is going to take them? 85%? Try 72% or 73%. Bad use of that time.
You want a better FT shooting team, find another Novak. He was the difference in the middle of the decade.
Quote from: chren21 on January 05, 2011, 10:37:03 PM
Whining? Who's whining? I will say it again. My opinion is different than yours, deal with that fact.
Good points StillAWarrior.
Arguing over this isn't going to change anything anyways.
That article would support his position if it also said that players now practice free throws more than they did in the past (I.e., more practice but no improvement). But it doesn't say that. My guess is that one of the reasons the percentage has remained constant over the years is that overall, the time spent practicing free throws has remained pretty constant. Some coaches do, others don't. No change in overall practice equals no change in overall performance.
Quote from: AnotherMU84 on January 05, 2011, 10:44:38 PM
I don't know what you guys think will be accomplished by taking precious team practice time for a team that is now shooting 69% (and above the national average). Where do you think shooting a million FTs and getting the muscle memory down (which doesn't exist) is going to take them? 85%? Try 72% or 73%. Bad use of that time.
You want a better FT shooting team, find another Novak. He was the difference in the middle of the decade.
I have neither complained about this team's free throw shooting, nor suggested that MU use precious team practice time to practice free throws. I merely pointed out that the article you cited in support of you position actually contradicts your position. If I didn't already understand that practicing free throws will, in fact, improve performance, your article certainly would have convinced me.
That said, tonight's game aside, I really don't have too much of a problem with this team's free throw shooting and I think Buzz has more important things to work on. But, I hope the players will take it upon themselves to practice more free throws because, as the article you quoted makes clear, it will improve their performance.
Quote from: StillAWarrior on January 05, 2011, 10:45:58 PM
That article would support his position if it also said that players now practice free throws more than they did in the past (I.e., more practice but no improvement). But it doesn't say that. My guess is that one of the reasons the percentage has remained constant over the years is that overall, the time spent practicing free throws has remained pretty constant. Some coaches do, others don't. No change in overall practice equals no change in overall performance.
Yes because after 50 years no one has figured out a better way to do it so no one devotes any more time to it than they did in 1960.
As the article said D1 players shoot 69%. We are shooting 69% this year. Again I ask, if we practice with all the goofy sirens and running until you're out of breath, we are only going to improve a few percent. That's meaningless and then when Junior misses another late game FT, you'll scream we are wasting or time doing all that.
Our FT% is what it is. Accept it and move on.
The NCAA limits structured practice times today. Players have access to the Al 24/7/365 to go shoot their free throws, though. Team time is better spent practicing team defense.
On another note, our opponents are shooting 60.2%.
Quote from: StillAWarrior on January 05, 2011, 10:56:51 PM
I have neither complained about this team's free throw shooting, nor suggested that MU use precious team practice time to practice free throws. I merely pointed out that the article you cited in support of you position actually contradicts your position. If I didn't already understand that practicing free throws will, in fact, improve performance, your article certainly would have convinced me.
That said, tonight's game aside, I really don't have too much of a problem with this team's free throw shooting and I think Buzz has more important things to work on. But, I hope the players will take it upon themselves to practice more free throws because, as the article you quoted makes clear, it will improve their performance.
Ok, let me try this ...
The article points out their is a hard ceiling around 69% for D1 players. Practice will get TEAMS (and other large groups, like conferences, but not individuals) to around 69%. When you get to that level, extra practice is really not going to take you much higher. Maybe to 70% or 71%, but not 85%. That extra time for 1% or 2% more is not worth it.
Since we are a 69% FT shooting team this year, whatever we are doing is good enough. It got us to that ceiling. No more than whatever we are doing needs to be done.
Quote from: AnotherMU84 on January 05, 2011, 11:03:10 PM
Ok, let me try this ...
The article points out their is a hard ceiling around 69% for D1 players. Practice will get TEAMS (and other large groups, like conferences, but not individuals) to around 69%. When you get to that level, extra practice is really not going to take you much higher. Maybe to 70% or 71%, but not 85%. That extra time for 1% or 2% more is not worth it.
Since we are a 69% FT shooting team this year, whatever we are doing is good enough. It got us to that ceiling. No more than whatever we are doing needs to be done.
As a practical matter, I don't disagree with this because they're probably not going to practice enough to get a huge improvement (but even an attainable 71% could be significant). But that's not really what the article says. It says nothing about a hard ceiling and aside from briefly mentioning that practice DOES improve performance, it really doesn't address practice. As I said in another post, I suspect that the reason FT percentages haven't increased over the years is that practice habits haven't changed much.
But, i strongly suspect that if Buzz decided to spend 50% of the team's practice time on FTs and required the players to spend 2 additional hours each day shooting FTs, the team's FT percentage would go up (assuming they did not all transfer). The reason? Muscle memory. You may think it would be a waste of time to spend team practice time on FTs (and I agree), but it's absolutely foolish to reject the concept of muscle memory as a bunch of junk.
Answer honestly: if the NCAA made a rule change that stated that FTs would count for 10 points each, what do you think would happen to FT percentages (assuming that the number of fouls remained constant, however unlikely that assumption may be)?
If I recall correctly, Weber at U of Illinois used to make the team do windsprints at the end of practice to tire them out and follow them with free throws. To a degree that simulated the utter exhaustion they would face in late game situations. I am a proponent of this approach.
Quote from: JakeBarnes on January 06, 2011, 12:45:50 AM
If I recall correctly, Weber at U of Illinois used to make the team do windsprints at the end of practice to tire them out and follow them with free throws. To a degree that simulated the utter exhaustion they would face in late game situations. I am a proponent of this approach.
U of I is at 69.3%. Weber's teams had a few years at 71% but many others in the low 60%.
Wisky is 80%, Duke 75.5%, Gtown is 73.1%, ND 73.3%, Nova is 77%...but then Kansas is 65.4%, Syracuse is 66.3%, Pitt is 65.9%, I4 is 68.7, MSU is 66.1%, UNC is 63.6%. What is common at the top are teams with great shooters and experienced upperclassmen.
btw, MU has been second in the BE the last couple of years--with great shooters and experienced upperclassmen.
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on January 06, 2011, 12:54:56 AM
U of I is at 69.3%. Weber's teams had a few years at 71% but many others in the low 60%.
Wisky is 80%, Duke 75.5%, Gtown is 73.1%, ND 73.3%, Nova is 77%...but then Kansas is 65.4%, Syracuse is 66.3%, Pitt is 65.9%, I4 is 68.7, MSU is 66.1%, UNC is 63.6%. What is common at the top are teams with great shooters and experienced upperclassmen.
btw, MU has been second in the BE the last couple of years--with great shooters and experienced upperclassmen.
I agree a lot with your last statement concerning experience. As for Weber's practice wit the ft drill now, I don't know if it still exists. I was just drawing on memory of a story I read about the Final Four team that played NC in the championship.
Quote from: JakeBarnes on January 06, 2011, 01:02:50 AM
I agree a lot with your last statement concerning experience. As for Weber's practice wit the ft drill now, I don't know if it still exists. I was just drawing on memory of a story I read about the Final Four team that played NC in the championship.
I agree...I think Duke does that as well, I believe, if not CTC. Just pointing out it is a mixed bag science and Buzz has had a good track record --whatever he is or isn't doing. At UNO, his team was also above average at 71.4%.
There is a difference between statistics analyzing groups vs. statistics that apply to actual people. Thomas Sowell writes about this in Intellectuals and Society. For example, when you read an editorial that claims that the gap between the rich and the poor is growing, "the actual empirical evidence cited has been about what has been happening over time to statistical categories--and that turns out to be the direct opposite of what has happened over time to flesh-and-blood human beings, most of whom move from one category to another over time." In other words, statistics revealing that free throw averages haven't improved in the past 50 years might be mind boggling, but, in this specific case, it applies to basketball leagues, and not to the potential of one person to improve.
Quote from: StillAWarrior on January 05, 2011, 11:28:14 PM
Answer honestly: if the NCAA made a rule change that stated that FTs would count for 10 points each, what do you think would happen to FT percentages (assuming that the number of fouls remained constant, however unlikely that assumption may be)?
They would go up but not for the reason you think. If we can agree that some guys are better at FTs than others then the game would complete change (think about what you are asking). We would recruit players that can hit 95% of their FTs even if they are marginal at other aspect of the game. If FTs counted for 10 points, we would have a completely different roster.
Lastly, if FTs counted for 10 points, the highest paid player in the NBA, the guy that would have "taken his game to South Beach" would be Steve Novak.
Quote from: AnotherMU84 on January 06, 2011, 06:41:19 AM
They would go up but not for the reason you think. If we can agree that some guys are better at FTs than others then the game would complete change (think about what you are asking). We would recruit players that can hit 95% of their FTs even if they are marginal at other aspect of the game. If FTs counted for 10 points, we would have a completely different roster.
Lastly, if FTs counted for 10 points, the highest paid player in the NBA, the guy that would have "taken his game to South Beach" would be Steve Novak.
Teams would also spend a lot of time practicing dunks and lay-ups. Since no one would want to foul, every game would turn into a lay-up drill. God forbid you foul someone and they convert the old fashioned 12-point play ;)
Quote from: StillAWarrior on January 05, 2011, 11:28:14 PM
As a practical matter, I don't disagree with this because they're probably not going to practice enough to get a huge improvement (but even an attainable 71% could be significant).
Actually a move from 69.3% to 71% is meaningless? And how much time you want to spend to get this? (Answer zero)
Through the WVU game MU attempted 343 FTs. If their average moved from 69.3% (current) to 71%, they would have made an extra 6 FTs this entire season (5.8 to be exact). Why is this significant? Junior nearly wiped out this advantage by allowing one four point play against Rutgers.
Quote from: AnotherMU84 on January 06, 2011, 06:47:07 AM
Actually a move from 69.3% to 71% is meaningless? And how much time you want to spend to get this? (Answer zero)
Through the WVU game MU attempted 343 FTs. If their average moved from 69.3% (current) to 71%, they would have made an extra 6 FTs this entire season (5.8 to be exact). Why is this significant? Junior nearly wiped out this advantage by allowing one four point play against Rutgers.
You would agree, wouldn't you, that if two of those additional free throws came in a one point win, it would be quite significant?
And you continue to miss the point that nobody has suggested spending practice time on this. Did you read the article the other day that someone posted about Wesley? How he wanted to improve his dribbling so he spent an hour each morning before class practicing. Do you think this might have have something to do with his current success? I do.
I get that you think the team shouldn't waste team practice time practicing free throws. You've made that clear. However, you also claimed that practicing will not lead to improvement, and that the concept of muscle memory is "junk." Since you've continually avoided revisiting those two issues or responding to questions that relate to those issues, I'm going to assume that you now realize how absurd those statements were.
Throw out all of the studies and statistics and admit that as a team, Marquette would benefit from making more free throws.
In close games, free throws can be ALL the difference. My point when starting this thread was that too many Marquette players are fair or poor from the free throw line.
I could not care less what other teams are doing from the line. I only care that when shooting two free throws, many of our players miss one or both. That is not acceptable on a team that seeks to thrive in the Big East.
Some here claim to believe there is little value in the repetition that comes with shooting a couple of hundred free throws every day. I cannot pretend to understand that logic. I can only say that I am glad none of you is coaching my kids.
Whatever the stats and studies show, Marquette need get better from the free throw line. That will only happen through practice, practice, practice.
Quote from: MU Avenue on January 06, 2011, 07:09:09 AM
Throw out all of the studies and statistics and admit that as a team, Marquette would benefit from making more free throws.
In close games, free throws can be ALL the difference. My point when starting this thread was that too many Marquette players are fair or poor from the free throw line.
I could not care less what other teams are doing from the line. I only care that when shooting two free throws, many of our players miss one or both. That is not acceptable on a team that seeks to thrive in the Big East.
Some here claim to believe there is little value in the repetition that comes with shooting a couple of hundred free throws every day. I cannot pretend to understand that logic. I can only say that I am glad none of you is coaching my kids.
Whatever the stats and studies show, Marquette need get better from the free throw line. That will only happen through practice, practice, practice.
No one that I see claims that practicing free throws isn't important...what some of us are discussing is about is how you practice free throws, with the implication that Buzz's philosophy doesn't work vs. others. I argue that during structured team practice, I would prefer our team practices team defense predominately over shooting "hundreds of free throws".
Other great coaches are mentioned as their results on free throws are different. Fact is, Buzz's teams are and have been above the norm. Yesterday, two underclass guards, who are not great shooters to start with, clanked their free throws in a hostile environment they are not used to playing in. Our senior guard, who missed most of the game and played on one leg due to a thigh injury that prevented him from bending, also clanked two free throws. The majority of the team shot at a very high rate.
Conclusion: MU must be doing something right in practice on free throws...the new guys and those playing on one leg, need to improve their shot--free throws or from the field. Buzz: spend team time improving team defense.
Avenue ...
Let's try again ....
MU shoots 68.5% (now updated through Rutgers) as a team this year. Long-term averages (the article above) shows that D1 players average about 69%. MU is an average FT team.
Your statement that "too many Marquette players are fair or poor from the free throw line" is not correct.
Player Minutes FTA FTM FT%
Jimmy Butler 489 91 71 78.0%
Darius Johnson-Odom 417 72 53 73.6%
Vander Blue 396 47 31 66.0%
Jae Crowder 382 42 25 59.5%
Dwight Buycks 377 23 17 73.9%
Junior Cadougan 271 23 10 43.5%
Chris Otule 207 22 11 50.0%
Davante Gardner 119 30 21 70.0%
Erik Williams 98 7 5 71.4%
Joseph Fulce 80 5 5 100.0%
Reggie Smith 79 6 2 33.3%
Jamail Jones 67 3 3 100.0%
Robert Frozena 18 4 3 75.0%
Total 3000 375 257 68.5%
Who on this list could do better and how much better could they get? The wrong answer is everyone practices FTs 90 hours a week they would all be 95% FT shooters. I would argue that everyone is at their ceiling and spending more time of FT practice will yield insignificant results.
If you want MU to get better at the line, tell Buzz to recruit be FT shooters. We are what we are and our FT% is fine.
Quote from: AnotherMU84 on January 06, 2011, 06:41:19 AM
They would go up but not for the reason you think. If we can agree that some guys are better at FTs than others then the game would complete change (think about what you are asking). We would recruit players that can hit 95% of their FTs even if they are marginal at other aspect of the game. If FTs counted for 10 points, we would have a completely different roster.
Lastly, if FTs counted for 10 points, the highest paid player in the NBA, the guy that would have "taken his game to South Beach" would be Steve Novak.
Where would teams find this super-breed of humans that comes out of the womb with a 95% free throw percentage? Sure, the rosters would look different, but those players would be better at free throws because they practiced free throws -- not because of some innate ability. Coaches at all levels would spend countless hours on free throws because that would be the most important part of the game. And they'd be foolish not to; much like they'd be foolish to devote too much practice time to FTs today. You devote the most practice time to the most important things.
Look, it's silly for you to continue arguing that practicing a mechanical physical activity doesn't improve performance. I don't even think you believe this. I suspect that you've backed yourself into a corner making absurd statements (e.g., practice won't improve performance and muscle memory is "junk") and just can't bring yourself to admit you were wrong.
Two more thoughts on Novak: 1) I bet he would disagree with your position on practice/muscle memory (but perhaps not on spending time in team practices); and 2) if FT were worth 10 points (an absurd proposal for many, many reasons), Novak probably wouldn't be the highest paid player in the NBA, it would probably be Ted St. Martin (http://www.sharpshooterfreethrows.com/philosophyofShooting.html). I wonder how he got so good...probably just lucky genetics.
Quote from: AnotherMU84 on January 06, 2011, 07:35:26 AM
Who on this list could do better and how much better could they get? The wrong answer is everyone practices FTs 90 hours a week they would all be 95% FT shooters. I would argue that everyone is at their ceiling and spending more time of FT practice will yield insignificant results.
Jae can do better, he shot 76% in Juco last year. That being said I don't think practicing FTs all day will make that much of a difference. His percentage has been going up. It will likely continue to do so as he settles in a little more.
Quote from: AnotherMU84 on January 06, 2011, 07:35:26 AM
Who on this list could do better and how much better could they get? The wrong answer is everyone practices FTs 90 hours a week they would all be 95% FT shooters. I would argue that everyone is at their ceiling and spending more time of FT practice will yield insignificant results.
Vander could do better. It has been frequently discussed on this board that Vander's mechanics are terrible. How does one improve bad mechanics? Learn proper mechanics and practice.
Quote from: StillAWarrior on January 06, 2011, 07:50:41 AM
Vander could do better. It has been frequently discussed on this board that Vander's mechanics are terrible. How does one improve bad mechanics? Learn proper mechanics and practice.
Yes, but that is an offseason type of switch. By no means will you want to do significant mechanic change to a players shot midseason. From experience working with players, when you change the mechanics of a player, to start they are going to be god awful shooters, because they are getting use to the way it feels shooting that way.
Some people on this board act as though these guys aren't told/aren't practicing free throws... they are, its absurd to think otherwise. This is a absolute pointless topic in which sparks us just yelling at each other, it serves no purpose on this board. It sickens me that everytime I make a stop at scoop, this is the top topic.
Quote from: Mayor McCheese on January 06, 2011, 08:01:05 AM
Yes, but that is an offseason type of switch. By no means will you want to do significant mechanic change to a players shot midseason. From experience working with players, when you change the mechanics of a player, to start they are going to be god awful shooters, because they are getting use to the way it feels shooting that way.
Some people on this board act as though these guys aren't told/aren't practicing free throws... they are, its absurd to think otherwise. This is a absolute pointless topic in which sparks us just yelling at each other, it serves no purpose on this board. It sickens me that everytime I make a stop at scoop, this is the top topic.
+1
The problem started when Buzz stated publicly that MU doesn't practice FTs. In doing so, he was assuming that the MU fan base recognized that NCAA teams have a limited amount of time to practice and that Buzz was not going to use any of that valuable time to practice FTs. Unfortunately, it devolved into "Buzz doesn't care about FTs" and now seemingly every time MU misses a FT, I hear some from the crowd yell something about the need for Buzz to practice FTs. In other words, Buzz gave the MU fanbase more credit that they (I guess, we) deserve.
Pro golfers practice hundreds of putts a day....but when they are standing over an 8 footer on the 18th of Augusta...the most important muscle memory is in their sphincters. At some point practice has a ceiling effect and it becomes a matter of what is the makeup of the dude between the ears.
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on January 06, 2011, 08:08:08 AM
The problem started when Buzz stated publicly that MU doesn't practice FTs. In doing so, he was assuming that the MU fan base recognized that NCAA teams have a limited amount of time to practice and that Buzz was not going to use any of that valuable time to practice FTs. Unfortunately, it devolved into "Buzz doesn't care about FTs" and now seemingly every time MU misses a FT, I hear some from the crowd yell something about the need for Buzz to practice FTs. In other words, Buzz gave the MU fanbase more credit that they (I guess, we) deserve.
+1
I've been trying to argue (in vain I suppose) that what Buzz is doing is fine.
How on Earth can anyone argue against the importance of high-level basketball players being able to make free throws?
Or that practicing anything makes most people better at it, whatever "it" is?
This debate ignores the obvious: Marquette misses too many free throws, especially in key situations.
Perhaps this can be improved upon by having our players shoot a lot more free throws in non-game situations.
I have never heard such ridiculous arguments against the value of practice and repetition as means to getting better at something.
Quote from: AnotherMU84 on January 05, 2011, 10:57:51 PM
Yes because after 50 years no one has figured out a better way to do it so no one devotes any more time to it than they did in 1960.
As the article said D1 players shoot 69%. We are shooting 69% this year. Again I ask, if we practice with all the goofy sirens and running until you're out of breath, we are only going to improve a few percent. That's meaningless and then when Junior misses another late game FT, you'll scream we are wasting or time doing all that.
Our FT% is what it is. Accept it and move on.
Agree 100% - To think shooting 100 free throws a day is going to take a 65% shooter to an 85% shooter is ridiculous. As you mention..maybe you can get someone from 65% to 70% but even that bump is basically insignificant. 50 years of data and no "lift" in the make percentage. It is what it is. Everyone of us gets annoyed at missed free throws at the end of games..but put into proper perspective (which is lacking by some here), MU shoots free throws at or above the national average for the last 7 years. As has been mentioned..look at our opposition...Rutgers was 4 of 11 last night. For the season our opposition is shooting 60% from the line..
Quote from: MU Avenue on January 06, 2011, 08:23:38 AM
How on Earth can anyone argue against the importance of high-level basketball players being able to make free throws?
Or that practicing anything makes most people better at it, whatever "it" is?
This debate ignores the obvious: Marquette misses too many free throws, especially in key situations.
Perhaps this can be improved upon by having our players shoot a lot more free throws in non-game situations.
I have never heard such ridiculous arguments against the value of practice and repetition as means to getting better at something.
No one is arguing that practice doesn't make a player better. The thing with FT practice is that it takes a lot of practice to see a small amount of improvement %wise. If we are going to practice FTs more what do you suggest we practice less? That practice time has to come from somewhere. Right now Buzz allocates practice time in the best way he sees fit.
Quote from: Mayor McCheese on January 06, 2011, 08:01:05 AM
Yes, but that is an offseason type of switch. By no means will you want to do significant mechanic change to a players shot midseason. From experience working with players, when you change the mechanics of a player, to start they are going to be god awful shooters, because they are getting use to the way it feels shooting that way.
I don't disagree.
Quote from: Mayor McCheese on January 06, 2011, 08:01:05 AMSome people on this board act as though these guys aren't told/aren't practicing free throws... they are, its absurd to think otherwise. This is a absolute pointless topic in which sparks us just yelling at each other, it serves no purpose on this board. It sickens me that everytime I make a stop at scoop, this is the top topic.
As I've said before, I really don't have much of a problem with how the team is shooting FTs. They're average. Would I like them to be above average? Sure. Am I troubled by the fact that they're average? Not really.
And I agree with you and I'm sure that they are practicing. I got involved in this thread when I read the absurd argument that practicing a mechanical skill wouldn't lead to improvement and that the concept of muscle memory is a joke.
And if this is the top topic whenever you visit, you must not come around here too often. Perhaps you didn't hear: Indiana sucks; Bo likes "traditional" players; Chicos and Ners hate each other; Christopherson has had a couple of good games; we either have a terrible problem with transfers or no problem at all; and Pitt is evil and must be destroyed.
Quote from: MU Avenue on January 06, 2011, 08:23:38 AM
I have never heard such ridiculous arguments against the value of practice and repetition as means to getting better at something.
That's not what people are saying. What people are saying is that players at this level are supposed to do this on their own time, not during the limited time when they have official practice.
Quote from: StillAWarrior on January 06, 2011, 08:28:48 AM
I don't disagree.
As I've said before, I really don't have much of a problem with how the team is shooting FTs. They're average. Would I like them to be above average? Sure. Am I troubled by the fact that they're average? Not really.
And I agree with you and I'm sure that they are practicing. I got involved in this thread when I read the absurd argument that practicing a mechanical skill wouldn't lead to improvement and that the concept of muscle memory is a joke.
+1
Quote from: MU Avenue on January 06, 2011, 08:23:38 AM
How on Earth can anyone argue against the importance of high-level basketball players being able to make free throws?
Or that practicing anything makes most people better at it, whatever "it" is?
This debate ignores the obvious: Marquette misses too many free throws, especially in key situations.
Perhaps this can be improved upon by having our players shoot a lot more free throws in non-game situations.
I have never heard such ridiculous arguments against the value of practice and repetition as means to getting better at something.
The problem is when you shoot in "non game situations" it doesn't amount for the in-game aspect. The crowd noise, the pressure, the tiredness (and someone brought up the doing windsprints before shooting FT in practice... its similar, but still not that same type of fatigue that players see in games, you are losing the getting hit, grabbed, pushed, lateral movement constantly in games), when shooting ft in practice and non-game situations, it doesn't take into account how the player has been shooting in the game that day.
FT's is an odd commoditity, much like putting in golf, and reading a pitcher's mechanics on releasing different types of pitches. It is such a tiny change that can take you from and average to proficiant at the skill, and I don't know if the skill can be taught. Understand that the tiny change in the skill doesn't always have to be physical.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on January 06, 2011, 08:31:20 AM
That's not what people are saying. What people are saying is that players at this level are supposed to do this on their own time, not during the limited time when they have official practice.
Actually that is
exactly what AnotherMU84 was saying. He started by saying the concept of practicing a physical activity to develop muscle memory is "junk" and then has repeatedly argued that the reason FT shooting percentages haven't improved over the last 50 years is because practicing free throws won't improve performance.
If the only question being discussed here is whether Buzz should spend practice time on free throws, I think we're all in agreement (with the possible exception of MU Avenue - not sure). But I think some of the players should do this on their own time (with the clarification that 100/day likely would have little or no discernible effect -- more like 1000+), and unlike Ners, I think a 5% increase would be very significant.
Quote from: Mayor McCheese on January 06, 2011, 08:36:38 AM
The problem is when you shoot in "non game situations" it doesn't amount for the in-game aspect. The crowd noise, the pressure, the tiredness (and someone brought up the doing windsprints before shooting FT in practice... its similar, but still not that same type of fatigue that players see in games, you are losing the getting hit, grabbed, pushed, lateral movement constantly in games), when shooting ft in practice and non-game situations, it doesn't take into account how the player has been shooting in the game that day.
Absolutely agree. I thought the most interesting thing in the article posted by AnotherMU84 was when it said, "
the general rule is that players, in games, shoot 10 percentage points below their practice average. The difference is pressure and fatigue, hard to replicate in an empty arena." So, if a guy hits 75% in practice, you can expect him to hit 65% in games. But, presumably if he hits 82% in practice, he's going to get 72% in games.
Obviously, this is a general rule , isn't exact, and doesn't apply in every case (unless, of course, Novak really did hit 107% in practice). I'd be interested to see more study/data on this.
Quote from: StillAWarrior on January 06, 2011, 08:42:31 AM
Actually that is exactly what AnotherMU84 was saying. He started by saying the concept of practicing a physical activity to develop muscle memory is "junk" and then has repeatedly argued that the reason FT shooting percentages haven't improved over the last 50 years is because practicing free throws won't improve performance.
I should have read the whole thread then because that is inherently stupid.
I took a class my senior year, "Theory of Coaching Basketball" by Hank Raymonds. Hank showed us how he taught the players to shoot free throws in practice. Al and Hank would make the players shoot free throws at the end of practice and at the end of drills when they were worn out and it worked. Most of the players made their free throws when it mattered most.
Good Grief! Did you ever see Ric Cobb shoot free throws?
I posted two weeks ago that we needed to practice free throws/Those that responded were mostly negative and implied that D-One teams did not practice free throws. If you count the back end of missed one and ones, free thows represent almost one third of the total points scored in a game/ When you lose a game by three or four points, you can usually look at missed free throws as the culprit.
It's probably worth noting that in 2006-07 and 2007-08, the two seasons prior to Buzz taking over, the team shot .669 and .706 from the line, respectively.
In the two years since Buzz became coach - and stopped shooting free throws as a part of organized practice time - the team has shot .728 and .741, respectively.
Obviously there are more factors at play here than whether or not the team is shooting free throws as part of organized practice time, but it at least seems apparent that it hasn't had much of a detrimental effect on the results.
Do you people have lives?
The only metric in this category that counts is that you make more free throws than the other team takes.
Quote from: leever on January 06, 2011, 03:11:26 PM
Good Grief! Did you ever see Ric Cobb shoot free throws?
Yes I did. It was not pretty, but I believe it was better than Abel Joseph or Faisal Abraham. I wonder who has the MU record for lowest career FT%? It would probably need to be a minimum of 40 attempts for the career.
That would certainly bring back some fond memories/nightmares.