teach Ox, EWill, and Mellow a lesson. BTW, how did Noreen look for the Mountaineers?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on January 01, 2011, 12:06:28 PM
teach Ox, EWill, and Mellow a lesson. BTW, how did Noreen look for the Mountaineers?
We just won a tough game. Enjoy it.
gardner: 0 minutes.
Otule: 3 rebounds and 2 points in 29 minutes, and he was schooled by Kilici
Quote from: 4everwarriors on January 01, 2011, 12:06:28 PM
teach Ox, EWill, and Mellow a lesson. BTW, how did Noreen look for the Mountaineers?
I knew Buzz would keep his rotations short. That's what he does.
No reason OX shouldn't have gotten at least 5 min. But yes take the w
Quote from: chren21 on January 01, 2011, 12:13:45 PM
No reason OX shouldn't have gotten at least 5 min. But yes take the w
Ox isn't ready for this. If you think Kcilxccizzciccii abused Otule, he would hgave scored 40 against Gardner.
Quote from: chren21 on January 01, 2011, 12:13:45 PM
No reason OX shouldn't have gotten at least 5 min. But yes take the w
Agree, I also thought Buzz could have found 5 minutes for Gardner to provide a spark.
Good. He can't jump, doesn't box out, or move his feet on defense. Talk about a liability in BE play.
I won't be surprised at all if Jones decided to transfer. The most he has played in any game this year is 14 minutes, and he didn't play at all against Bucknell, Duke, Gonzaga, UWM, Vanderbilt and West Virginia. He only played 2 minutes against Wisconsin. How do you know what a guy can do if you never play him?
Quote from: Norm on January 01, 2011, 12:29:30 PM
How do you know what a guy can do if you never play him?
Practice.
When he plays, he turns the ball over and gives up lay ups. Even during the one game he had his scoring outburst, he gave up more than he scored. As soon as any of the 3 are ready defensively, they will play. No major mystery.
Quote from: Norm on January 01, 2011, 12:29:30 PM
I won't be surprised at all if Jones decided to transfer. The most he has played in any game this year is 14 minutes, and he didn't play at all against Bucknell, Duke, Gonzaga, UWM, Vanderbilt and West Virginia. He only played 2 minutes against Wisconsin. How do you know what a guy can do if you never play him?
Holy Crap he's a FRESHMAN!
Quote from: TallTitan34 on January 01, 2011, 12:31:22 PM
Practice.
Very true...the question is whether he chooses to practice at another school if he feels he is wasting away here. That's the difficult line Buzz has to straddle. Hopefully it works out for MU and this kid can play his way into some minutes.
Quote from: Norm on January 01, 2011, 12:29:30 PM
I won't be surprised at all if Jones decided to transfer. The most he has played in any game this year is 14 minutes, and he didn't play at all against Bucknell, Duke, Gonzaga, UWM, Vanderbilt and West Virginia. He only played 2 minutes against Wisconsin. How do you know what a guy can do if you never play him?
Watching him play in the summer, Jones had a LONG ways to go. Wasn't intense at all on D (even less than normal for summer ball), getting to the lane on O. Just wanted to float on the 3 point line and shoot, and I don't think he's that great a shooter to be doing that.
If Jones would develop the motivation to play consistently the way he did in the game i saw of him in hs, I'm sure he'd be playing a little.
I could be wrong, but I swear I saw Jones getting ready to go in under the scorer's table .. then there was a full timeout, and when the team took the court again, he was not in.
Quote from: mu_hilltopper on January 01, 2011, 12:37:19 PM
I could be wrong, but I swear I saw Jones getting ready to go in under the scorer's table .. then there was a full timeout, and when the team took the court again, he was not in.
100% correct..at the 13 minute mark..unfortunately play didn't stop for 2 minutes got under the 12 minute TV T.O...and Jones was back to bench
Not taking Rutgers lightly, but maybe Jones, Gardner and Williams will get some minutes on Wednesday. I'll be there cheering the Warriors on.
Marquette plays elite level Big East basketball,
You want to see everyone play, go watch your kid's sixth grade pee wee team.
Quote from: willie warrior on January 01, 2011, 12:09:48 PM
gardner: 0 minutes.
Otule: 3 rebounds and 2 points in 29 minutes, and he was schooled by Kilici
Otule did not have a good game. Gave up more than a few offensive boards, bobbled a few pases, and missed several bunnies. Surprised that Buzz played him 29 minutes. I guess Buzz thought he was the only one who can handle Klichi (sp?).
Also surprised that Gardner didn't get a few minutes especially to start an offensive set. I guess whatever Buzz is seeing in practice (re: Gardner) is not making him happy.
Otule putback dunk was clutch. We may not win the game without it.
Quote from: willie warrior on January 01, 2011, 12:09:48 PM
gardner: 0 minutes.
Otule: 3 rebounds and 2 points in 29 minutes, and he was schooled by Kilici
Kilicli is a nice player and I believe he was a top20 (10?) recruit. Further, half of the shots he hit touched every part of the rim twice before falling, so he easily could have scored single digits if the rolls weren't going his way.
The two areas Williams and Jones struggle with is defensive awareness. When WV was in their motion set, they would have been beaten like a drum.
Love Davante, but Kilicli would have had his way with him. Way too mobile.
As far as I'm concerned, the only dark clouds for me are the FT shooting and Otule only grabbing 3 boards in 29 minutes. That has to go up. Otherwise, it was a really good win.
We outrebounded WVU, so I guess a fair question that can't be quantified is how many boards did Chris keep his guy from getting by contesting that one of the other MU players pulled down?
Otule had a very good game as far as making it real tough for WV to get to the rim. My guess is Buzz realizes they could do better with Gardner in, but just wants to prove a point by not playing him.
It true Buzz shortened the bench today but I'm not sure he did anything wrong. As Buzz said on the post game this game was about toughness which is what its always about with Huggins teams. Gardner, Jones etc aren't that tough. Also this was one of those difficult but win-able games and we have to get some Ws in those to get those to get the whole team confidence. Also who were you going to take out? Crowder was on fire, Jimmy was quite but is the stablizer. You're right Jones was going to come in probably for DJO but while he was waiting DJO caught fire and you've got to stay with the hot hand. With Byckes sitting with 4 you have to leave Junior in as the PG. That leaves Otule so the only real option was to sub in a front court player for him.
You may be able to get those guys minutes against Rutgers or even ND. For the most part freshman sit and learn and that's the way it was to be when you're playing in the BE.
Quote from: avid1010 on January 01, 2011, 01:51:16 PM
Otule had a very good game as far as making it real tough for WV to get to the rim. My guess is Buzz realizes they could do better with Gardner in, but just wants to prove a point by not playing him.
I absolutley agree with your -teal statement (lol). Otule played a very good game. He boxed out a player or set a pick on one to let Buycks go right to the rim and score too. I think he did fine against decent players. He is getting better, and the trend is looking good.
Otule was excellent defensively today, and his putback dunk was the momentum shift that won us the game. It was obvious to pretty much everyone in the building. You could feel the vibe in the BC change when he slammed that home. Otule had a great game today.
I'd say Otule had a good day for him for what we expect from him. Up until that slam, though, has was useless offensively. Maybe he did stuff that doesn't show up on the stat sheet that I missed, but 3 rebounds and 2 points in 29 minutes is considered subpar for about every other big man in the Big East.
I thought the one eyed, one horned, flying purple people eater played fairly well.
Otule missed a lot of shots and didn't get a lot of boards. But he fought well the whole game and affected who got the rebound when he couldn't. 6'11 presence cannot be discounted.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on January 01, 2011, 12:32:50 PM
That's the difficult line Buzz has to straddle. Hopefully it works out for MU and this kid can play his way into some minutes.
Thats a difficult line that all coaches need to straddle. I don't know what the actual transfer number is. Buzz mentioned 40% but lets say it is north of 20% which is what on average? close to 1 a year? I would be more worried if MU was the only school that had transfers. We live in a world of instant gratification. We don't get it, we look elsewhere. I wonder what would happen if we put in the old rule of freshmen couldn't play their first year. Obviously it would never happen but I wonder if the number of transfers would decrease substantially.
Quote from: tower912 on January 01, 2011, 01:48:50 PM
We outrebounded WVU, so I guess a fair question that can't be quantified is how many boards did Chris keep his guy from getting by contesting that one of the other MU players pulled down?
This is what I always wonder as well. I think we are a much better rebounding TEAM with Otule in the lineup rather than Gardner and that we give up far fewer offensive rebounds when he's in there. He's not pulling down very many himself but I think he does still have an impact by keeping the other teams big guy off the offensive glass.
Any of you stats guys have a way of looking at this?
Quote from: mufanatic on January 01, 2011, 03:25:31 PM
Thats a difficult line that all coaches need to straddle. I don't know what the actual transfer number is. Buzz mentioned 40% but lets say it is north of 20% which is what on average? close to 1 a year? I would be more worried if MU was the only school that had transfers. We live in a world of instant gratification. We don't get it, we look elsewhere. I wonder what would happen if we put in the old rule of freshmen couldn't play their first year. Obviously it would never happen but I wonder if the number of transfers would decrease substantially.
Perhaps, but there are certainly a number of programs out there that are top 25 programs that have very few transfers. They're doing something right.
Quote from: Daniel on January 01, 2011, 02:57:38 PM
I absolutley agree with your -teal statement (lol). Otule played a very good game. He boxed out a player or set a pick on one to let Buycks go right to the rim and score too. I think he did fine against decent players. He is getting better, and the trend is looking good.
Yeah, he was 1 for 6, missing a couple of no footers, only had 3 rebounds, picked up 4 fouls, and was schooled by Kilici, so he is definitely getting better. Meanwhile, Gardner rides the pines becoming rusty.
You go, Willie.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on January 01, 2011, 03:58:58 PM
Perhaps, but there are certainly a number of programs out there that are top 25 programs that have very few transfers. They're doing something right.
If you believe that's "right". I don't see anything inherently wrong with competition which will inevitably spawn transfers.
It's the kid's choice.
Quote from: Stone Cold on January 01, 2011, 04:02:46 PM
If you believe that's "right". I don't see anything inherently wrong with competition which will inevitably spawn transfers.
It's the kid's choice.
Not always that black and white as I'm sure you are aware. Much of it has to do with what expectations are set during the recruiting aspect, how the kid feels he has been treated once he is enrolled, etc, etc.
Quote from: willie warrior on January 01, 2011, 04:01:08 PM
Yeah, he was 1 for 6, missing a couple of no footers, only had 3 rebounds, picked up 4 fouls, and was schooled by Kilici, so he is definitely getting better. Meanwhile, Gardner rides the pines becoming rusty.
Saying and/or writing the same thing over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again doesn't make it true you know.
Quote from: ATL MU Warrior on January 01, 2011, 04:42:18 PM
Saying and/or writing the same thing over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again doesn't make it true you know.
+1
Otule wasn't schooled by Kilicli at all. He gave up some points, but much of that was because they kept pounding it in. Eventually, some will fall. And he did a great job of keeping him off the boards. Only 5 boards for the guy that played center for 25 minutes isn't exactly impressive, especially considering our rebounding history this year.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on January 01, 2011, 12:06:28 PM
teach Ox, EWill, and Mellow a lesson. BTW, how did Noreen look for the Mountaineers?
when these guys show they can defend.
I Tivo'd the game so was able to watch Otule and while I wish he could sink the 1 footers, for the most part he boxed out well and did a good job sealing his man off. Overall, he plays smart D, being in the right place and blocks or affects shots down low.
Quote from: AZWarrior on January 01, 2011, 05:16:36 PM
I Tivo'd the game so was able to watch Otule and while I wish he could sink the 1 footers, for the most part he boxed out well and did a good job sealing his man off. Overall, he plays smart D, being in the right place and blocks or affects shots down low.
Not to single you out as many posters are lamenting Otule's inability to hit shots, but the guy is shooting 75% for the year.
Quote from: ATL MU Warrior on January 01, 2011, 05:20:39 PMNot to single you out as many posters are lamenting Otule's inability to hit shots, but the guy is shooting 75% for the year.
True, but he will be easy to target today as he only had that one putback. In a community like this, that makes him easy to criticize ;)
Quote from: ATL MU Warrior on January 01, 2011, 05:20:39 PM
Not to single you out as many posters are lamenting Otule's inability to hit shots, but the guy is shooting 75% for the year.
I agree with you - I should have worded that part of my post better....something like "it was painful
today to watch him miss....."
Chris played a solid game today. And understand that MU will be playing 8-9 regularly. 10 is simply not going to happen without someone in foul trouble. None of our bigs (notably Chris) were in foul trouble today.
Until next year or the year after when they are ready to contribute consistently.
They are not at that point now. If you see something different than that I would like to see the world from your eyes.
There is nothing wrong with freshman and sophomore's passing the time on the bench. The hunger grows, hell, when my dad was at SMU he couldn't even be on the "Varsity" team until Sophomore year and there were "freshman" teams with "freshman" games. Let it rest, you watch the team for 40 minutes, coaches watch the team far more than you or I.
Quote from: ATL MU Warrior on January 01, 2011, 03:30:45 PM
This is what I always wonder as well. I think we are a much better rebounding TEAM with Otule in the lineup rather than Gardner and that we give up far fewer offensive rebounds when he's in there. He's not pulling down very many himself but I think he does still have an impact by keeping the other teams big guy off the offensive glass.
Any of you stats guys have a way of looking at this?
This is a bad game to judge our rebounding on. WV never plays a zone, which puts experienced zoning teams at a rebounding disadvantage, and they went zone off of their makes or misses meaning they weren't sending many players to the rim. That being said, Buzz going to a line-up that puts Otule, Jae and Jimmy on the court at the same time adds to our rebounding ability.
As far as Gardner goes. I want to see him play as well, as he is pretty instant offense, but that would not have been the case against WV's zone. Watching him in warm-ups today the coaches were throwing alley-oop type passes of the backboard for dunks. He had a really hard time getting up there...his lift was very poor. He'll learn to use his body better, and I think his lift will improve as his strength/conditioning improves. At that point in time I think you could see he and Otule on the court at hte same time.
I was at the game today and thought Otule had a pretty good game. I was surprised to see Kilicli's numbers because it didn't seem he was doing that to Chris. That being said, it seems to me that Otule will cost us about 4 points a game due to his inability to finish or catch a pass inside. That appears to be the trade-off for his defense.
Quote from: avid1010 on January 01, 2011, 07:10:59 PM
This is a bad game to judge our rebounding on. WV never plays a zone, which puts experienced zoning teams at a rebounding disadvantage, and they went zone off of their makes or misses meaning they weren't sending many players to the rim. That being said, Buzz going to a line-up that puts Otule, Jae and Jimmy on the court at the same time adds to our rebounding ability.
As far as Gardner goes. I want to see him play as well, as he is pretty instant offense, but that would not have been the case against WV's zone. Watching him in warm-ups today the coaches were throwing alley-oop type passes of the backboard for dunks. He had a really hard time getting up there...his lift was very poor. He'll learn to use his body better, and I think his lift will improve as his strength/conditioning improves. At that point in time I think you could see he and Otule on the court at hte same time.
Yeah, I wasn't necessarily referring to today's game. What I was thinking of was the Vandy game where Gardner gave up a bunch of offensive rebounds when he was in.
Gardner has gotten more rebounds per minute when he has played against tough teams, but he seems to make up for getting out of position by fouling guys as they lay it in.
Gardner is almost a zone buster from inside. His hands are so good that you can throw it into him in traffic and he will catch it and give up a great shot. Remember coach k commented on the trouble they had with him, so he is ready for be level of play, but not a fast-paced style.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on January 01, 2011, 03:10:18 PM
I thought the one eyed, one horned, flying purple people eater played fairly well.
He was born with two horns, but one was underdeveloped.
I really like Otule. It's easy to forget how few meaningful minutes he's actually played at this level. He gets better in different ways every time he steps on the court, and he's getting confident. I'm really excited about his future.
Quote from: NickelDimer on January 01, 2011, 09:16:10 PM
He was born with two horns, but one was underdeveloped.
I really like Otule. It's easy to forget how few meaningful minutes he's actually played at this level. He gets better in different ways every time he steps on the court, and he's getting confident. I'm really excited about his future.
(http://www.deviantart.com/download/110986965/Flying_Purple_People_Eater_by_Sklavenbrause.png)
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_Moq6mXsUEPc/Srj6yVF0lJI/AAAAAAAAAkw/jihW9FCKryA/s400/purple_people_eater.jpg)
Otule is turning into a poor man's Ousmane Barro, though he's not quite as awkward and therefore not as effective defensively. He's making clear progress. Development anybody? Anybody? I'd say so!
He's getting better, but at a snail's pace. And considering where he was at last year, he still has sooo far to go. I didn't think he did that well today, but what do I know. He ate up minutes. His guy scored a lot, but worse, his misreads on D led to at least six other points. Plays where he didn't see the cutter right in front of him.
He's a work in progress. My problem is that there's nobody else to take some minutes from him yet. Wilson can play next year. And Gardner I'm guessing just isn't physically there yet. I am shocked he didn't get at least five minutes today, however.
Otule size creates problems and is something opponents have to prepare for. Look at today, Flowers fouled out and Kilicli sat out 15 minutes with foul trouble...letting MU to win the rebounding battle by 10. When he was out and MU went small, WVU made a run--just like Duke, GU, Wisky and Vandy games. We won PIP 36-30...and PIP+FTM 50-37. Fact is, Otule will look better on defense against a true big like at Vandy vs. a more skilled player like Kilicli. Did he get his shots blocked today? Yes, but Flowers is #1 BE in this category and 17th nationally for the season to date. Yet, he is 68% at FG%.
He helps create creases for the drivers very effectively but needs to work on his body positioning and footwork. Have to get him the ball up high if you want him to score or he will stumble or miss it. Why Gardner isn't inserted is apparently all defense, but if we are going to allow runs playing small ball anyway, please insert him Buzz when Chris sits.
I watched the replay on ESPNU and focused on Otule in the 2nd half. I honestly didn't see him do anything special besides the put-back dunk when WVU blew their defense and Otule was wide open. He missed shots, got maybe one rebound, didn't pick up guys driving to the net on D, and just seemed to be there.
Quote from: Norm on January 02, 2011, 01:45:42 AM
I watched the replay on ESPNU and focused on Otule in the 2nd half. I honestly didn't see him do anything special besides the put-back dunk when WVU blew their defense and Otule was wide open. He missed shots, got maybe one rebound, didn't pick up guys driving to the net on D, and just seemed to be there.
Agree with you entirely, Norm. But a number on this board are enamored with him over Gardner. Both have strengths--many complain about Gardner's defense, but it is about on par with Otule's. And Gardner is much better offensively and passing.
The minutes should be split between the two, about 25/15
Quote from: willie warrior on January 02, 2011, 09:52:16 AM
Agree with you entirely, Norm. But a number on this board are enamored with him over Gardner. Both have strengths--many complain about Gardner's defense, but it is about on par with Otule's. And Gardner is much better offensively and passing.
The minutes should be split between the two, about 25/15
If you think Gardner's defense is on par with Otule's you're not watching the same games I am...
Quote from: willie warrior on January 02, 2011, 09:52:16 AM
Agree with you entirely, Norm. But a number on this board are enamored with him over Gardner. Both have strengths--many complain about Gardner's defense, but it is about on par with Otule's. And Gardner is much better offensively and passing.
The minutes should be split between the two, about 25/15
Still wrong. Keep saying it though.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on January 01, 2011, 09:52:40 PM
(http://www.deviantart.com/download/110986965/Flying_Purple_People_Eater_by_Sklavenbrause.png)
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_Moq6mXsUEPc/Srj6yVF0lJI/AAAAAAAAAkw/jihW9FCKryA/s400/purple_people_eater.jpg)
I am very glad i wasn't the crass one to "break hearts" on One-Eyed Chris.... :D
At any rate, I love this board, and no that is not in teal. I really enjoy the differences in opinion and the various perspectives/experiences/evidence/rationales; it makes for good discourse.
CJ aside, I will say that for me, Otule still has a long way to go--which is fine, btw--however, I think Gardner deserves a chance. As someone pointed out (Sorry for not having my ALA format & proper citations to the responsible poster), Gardner has some WICKED post moves that confound zone, and DUH we could definitely use the break. And i 100% agree about gardner being a defensive liability, watching tape of him NOT box out makes my eyes hurt.
Unfortunately, as much as I believe Gardner ought to play (some) time, I am not Coach, so we will just have to "In Buzz We Trust".
Hey Tower, on a sidenote, I love the comment about the ignore button, though i am having a hard time finding anything about it in the medical literature; know any randomized clinical trials that I should be referencing?? ;D
Purely anecdotal.
Quote from: tower912 on January 03, 2011, 07:02:10 AM
Purely anecdotal.
unfortunately i dont know if utilization of the ignore button will apply to a large enough audience to go to market... but i'll put it in my list of "lifestyle changes" for any scoopers i run into w/ HTN.... :)