I hate to say it, but Jae looked loss on that court Saturday. Blown defensive assignments, man handled on the boards. If they show that stat on whether the team performed better or worst when one was in I am guessing that it was in the Red for Jae. Why not more minutes for Erik Williams and some 3 pt shooting from Jamil Jones?
Quote from: NCMUFan on December 13, 2010, 02:53:18 AM
I hate to say it, but Jae looked loss on that court Saturday. Blown defensive assignments, man handled on the boards. If they show that stat on whether the team performed better or worst when one was in I am guessing that it was in the Red for Jae. Why not more minutes for Erik Williams and some 3 pt shooting from Jamil Jones?
Of those guys, I still think Jae is the guy. However, you are right about the UW game. He was horrible on defense. I would also like to know the +/- for him in that game since he was not good.
I think we were hoping he could take up some of the slack by Lazar's departure and he has offensively. However, defensively Lazar was able to guard the 4 and could even hold is own against the 5 last year. Jae cannot handle centers and right now struggles against 4's on defense. He is still inexperienced at the Div 1 level so I am hoping he improves his "D" on 4's because that is who he needs to guard.
There is no way Jae should be in the game without either Otule or Gardner if our opponent has a legit center. If Outle or Gardner are in, I think he will figure out by season's end how to guard most 4's.
I see no reason to believe that Williams would be any better. Jones is a different position alltogether.
Quote from: NCMUFan on December 13, 2010, 02:53:18 AM
If they show that stat on whether the team performed better or worst when one was in I am guessing that it was in the Red for Jae.
Jae was a -6
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on December 13, 2010, 06:40:58 AM
Where do you find the +/-? Just curious.
http://statsheet.com/mcb/games/2010/12/11/wisconsin-69-marquette-64/plus_minus
Thanks, Doc!
Look at Gardner's +/-. He NEEDS to be in the starting line-up or subbed in immediately instead of Jae for Otule. He helps everything on the floor and he's not as bad as people say he is on block defensively. Sure Otule has him there but anywhere else I'd take Gardner.
Quote from: jeffreyweee on December 13, 2010, 07:54:07 AM
Look at Gardner's +/-. He NEEDS to be in the starting line-up or subbed in immediately instead of Jae for Otule. He helps everything on the floor and he's not as bad as people say he is on block defensively. Sure Otule has him there but anywhere else I'd take Gardner.
Agree entirely. Gardner and Otule should be eating up close to 38 minutes per game. Crowder is a Forward, not a post. That is patently obvious.
Gardner's doing very well, but the only reason I think he got 18 minutes against Bucky was because they slow it down so much. Made it easier for a guy with his level of conditioning. When we're playing against fast opposition, or opposition that lets us play fast, he can't keep up for that many minutes.
How do I go about recreating the same level of support for myself that Erik Williams seems to get from MU fans?
Outside of having a high rating on recruiting websites he has shown nothing that demonstrates he is capable of contributing.
Quote from: Marquette_g on December 13, 2010, 08:59:12 AM
How do I go about recreating the same level of support for myself that Erik Williams seems to get from MU fans?
Outside of having a high rating on recruiting websites he has shown nothing that demonstrates he is capable of contributing.
He has a very pure jumpshot. Unfortunately he is a huge defensive liability.
If Ewill does not get more PT will he leave at the end of the year? If someone does he seems to be the logical candidate.
The +/- stat is based on so many different factors. My memory is far from stellar, but I thought Buzz played Gardner when Luer was on the bench. That being said, I thought it was obvious they need to get the ball to JB and DG in the post more often. When MU went small, I would have loved to have seen Buzz go to a five-out offense. JB and Jae are as good as anyone from beyond the arc, and it would have created open driving lanes rather than watching MU continue to drive the ball into 3-4 UW players.
Quote from: avid1010 on December 13, 2010, 09:43:00 AM
The +/- stat is based on so many different factors. My memory is far from stellar, but I thought Buzz played Gardner when Luer was on the bench. That being said, I thought it was obvious they need to get the ball to JB and DG in the post more often. When MU went small, I would have loved to have seen Buzz go to a five-out offense. JB and Jae are as good as anyone from beyond the arc, and it would have created open driving lanes rather than watching MU continue to drive the ball into 3-4 UW players.
Leuer went out at 17:44 and Buzz went small with DJO, Junior/Dwight, Jae, Jimmy, Vander/Junior. When the Ox was inserted, MU was down 9 already. In the 1st half, the Ox was a +7 on the run back.
My Dad and I have been talking about Jae at the 5 spot all season. Unless we are going against a team without a true center Jae is a total liability defending that spot. I like Crowder at the 4, but when he is defending the 5 it seems we start to fall behind immediately. Otule and DG need to share that center position, we are a significantly better team on the court with one of those guys out there. Neither Otule or DG is a very good defender but the season is still young and I have hope the defense and rebounding will come around. At least DG can score and Otule clogs up the lane and blocks some shots. The rotation for center is really weird as well, why does Otule start for 5 minutes and maybe get another 3-5 in the second half? Coach said Otule couldn't play a ton of minutes because of conditioning but 8 minutes for your starting center? I am totally out of shape but I played some rec league ball last season and I know that I could play my guts out for more than 8 minutes a game. An athlete that is what 19 or 20 years old in decent shape should be able to play at least 15-20 minutes a game.
No more or very limited does of Crowder at the 5, more DG and Otule.
I like EWill, I like his offensive game, he seems to be a pretty good defender on the perimeter as well. I am worried about him transferring after this season.
Quote from: mikem91288 on December 13, 2010, 09:35:03 AM
If Ewill does not get more PT will he leave at the end of the year? If someone does he seems to be the logical candidate.
Thank you so much. I was worried that no one was going to throw players under the bus until the Spring signing period.
I am not sure I understand the chart. I assume a -6 is better than the -7's DJO and Blue had.
I know that +/- can be deceiving, but Taylor being +18 for UW and Gardner being +10 for MU pretty much describes the game I thought I was watching. I'd be interested in Gardner's +/- for the season (using games he was full strength). I bet it's awesome.
Regarding E Williams, I don't know that he's quick enough to play the perimeter, but for now he's just not physical enough to play underneath. In his brief appearance against A+M Corpus Christi he was abused down low - can't believe it'll get easier in the Big East.
Quote from: MarquetteDano on December 13, 2010, 06:04:32 AM
Of those guys, I still think Jae is the guy. However, you are right about the UW game. He was horrible on defense. I would also like to know the +/- for him in that game since he was not good.
I think we were hoping he could take up some of the slack by Lazar's departure and he has offensively. However, defensively Lazar was able to guard the 4 and could even hold is own against the 5 last year. Jae cannot handle centers and right now struggles against 4's on defense. He is still inexperienced at the Div 1 level so I am hoping he improves his "D" on 4's because that is who he needs to guard.
There is no way Jae should be in the game without either Otule or Gardner if our opponent has a legit center. If Outle or Gardner are in, I think he will figure out by season's end how to guard most 4's.
Yea, Lazar was able to play bigger than his actual size was, Crowder plays like a guy who is only 6'6, which is what he is.
That's not necessarily a bad thing so long as he can contribute positively to the team, but for Crowder to accomplish that, Buzz will have to set Jae up in situations for him to succeed and that so far looks like not guarding guys with a significant size advantage. Pounding into Jae to always box out in the paint would help also, to often he simply follows the ball in the air without looking for a body to box out.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 14, 2010, 07:00:12 PM
I know that +/- can be deceiving, but Taylor being +18 for UW and Gardner being +10 for MU pretty much desribes the game I thought I was watching. I'd be interested in Gardner's +/- for the season (using games he was full strength). I bet it's awesome.
http://statsheet.com/mcb/players/player/marquette/davante-gardner/plus_minus
He's +5.5 average per game on the season, though that's largely propped up by the Bucknell game. I was surprised he only ended up +1 for the Duke game.
I'm not sure that the numbers would necessarily hold if he was playing more minutes. Right now he seems to be a spark off the bench sort of guy, much like Jimmy Butler was in his first year (http://statsheet.com/mcb/players/player/marquette/jimmy-butler/plus_minus?season=2008-2009). Though, in all honesty, Gardner's already given us more than I expected from him for his first 2+ seasons, so I'm really excited to see how he develops over his career.
Quote from: avid1010 on December 13, 2010, 09:43:00 AMMy memory is far from stellar, but I thought Buzz played Gardner when Luer was on the bench.
As Dr. Blackheart said, Leuer went to the bench with 17:44 remaining. Over the next 7:03 until he returned, Bucky outscored us 12-7, extending their lead to 8 points, so it's safe to say that Gardner's healthy +/- stat didn't come from that stretch.
Quote from: Marquette_g on December 13, 2010, 08:59:12 AM
How do I go about recreating the same level of support for myself that Erik Williams seems to get from MU fans?
Outside of having a high rating on recruiting websites he has shown nothing that demonstrates he is capable of contributing.
I keep thinking back to Chris Crawford...he was a coach's whipping boy for nearly two years and grew into a really good college PF / SF. I see something similar in Eric Williams. chren21 could probably tell me whether or not I'm high with this comp.
Crawford was an absolutely sick athlete for 6'9" and a fantastic shooter. He was a true 3 man and was behind Eford for the first couple years. Kevin liked him and saw the potential. Crawford was the quietest guy on the team. Never said a word. Coaches didn't really like this but you cant have 5 loud mouths on the floor either. Everyone liked Crawford.
I don't get to see Ewill at practice but from what little I have seen in games he has an absolutely fantastic looking jump shot. Not going to be a 3 point shooter but could end up being deadly from 10-17 feet. His form is almost perfect, and it seems like he has an above average vertical jump. Therefore I like the comparison. If he can figure out his defense I think the sky is the limit for him.
Not sure what kind of personality Ewill has. Quiet, leader, follower, etc..?? So I cant compare them in that regard. From the videos of practice it seems like Buzz wants leaders / strong personalities. Ewill does not come off that way, but that is just a guess. I think if the right surrounding cast develops around Ewill he could end up 1st/2nd team all Big East as a senior. Again, that is ONLY IF the staff can figure out a way to get him to play defense. If that starts to happen I think we will see his confidence go up at an alarmingly quick rate. His wingspan alone should help him on D, unfortunately it hasn't helped at all thus far.
F
Quote from: mikem91288 on December 13, 2010, 09:35:03 AM
If Ewill does not get more PT will he leave at the end of the year? If someone does he seems to be the logical candidate.
What has he done to prove that he deserves to play?
I cant help but think about this Ewill playing time situation...
If he is not going to get any PT barring injury what does it mean for next year? You have to think that if Buzz had thoughts he could get 20+ min a game next year he would be playing him 8 a game this year. Right? If not Vander is the 3 and Crowder is the 4 next year? Crowders best position is the 3, I think, so I'm at a loss what's going on. If he brings in a juco 4 man for next year then it solves it. Then again Vander's best position is the 2 but DJO is obviously there as well. You have to think Vander will start next year. This will be an interesting situation to watch play out.
...
Quote from: chren21 on January 07, 2011, 03:43:57 PM
I cant help but think about this Ewill playing time situation...
If he is not going to get any PT barring injury what does it mean for next year? You have to think that if Buzz had thoughts he could get 20+ min a game next year he would be playing him 8 a game this year. Right? If not Vander is the 3 and Crowder is the 4 next year? Crowders best position is the 3, I think, so I'm at a loss what's going on. If he brings in a juco 4 man for next year then it solves it. Then again Vander's best position is the 2 but DJO is obviously there as well. You have to think Vander will start next year. This will be an interesting situation to watch play out.
Look, Fulce and JFB are gone next year. Jamil will take most of JFB's minutes in my opinion. There is then room for Williams to take the 8-10 minutes that Fulce gets next year, and 20-25 of Crowder's the year after...maybe more. But you are right, if he brings someone like God's Gift here, it's not happening.
Quote from: chren21 on January 07, 2011, 03:43:57 PM
I cant help but think about this Ewill playing time situation...
If he is not going to get any PT barring injury what does it mean for next year? You have to think that if Buzz had thoughts he could get 20+ min a game next year he would be playing him 8 a game this year. Right? If not Vander is the 3 and Crowder is the 4 next year? Crowders best position is the 3, I think, so I'm at a loss what's going on. If he brings in a juco 4 man for next year then it solves it. Then again Vander's best position is the 2 but DJO is obviously there as well. You have to think Vander will start next year. This will be an interesting situation to watch play out.
how many of these guys are playing all 40 minutes. 8-9 guys can get alot of playing time.
This is ludicrous.
It is a no brainer that Crowder is a stud and should be playing.
The blame goes to the Coach who continues to play Crowder at the post for 10 plus minutes per game. Otule and Gardner need to get about 35 minutes, and give the rest to Fulce.
But to advocate that Williams or Jones play in place of Crowder is ridiculous.
Never said anything about taking away minutes from Crowder. If anything I would give Fulce's minutes to Ewill. I just dont see how next year is going to play out. I would like to see us get to playing a real 4 and a real 5... IE ewill and Otule/DG at the same time next year (more of Crowder, Butler and Otule/DG at the same time this year).
Would Erik even want to return next season if he was only going to get 8-10 minutes per game? He's already had 1.5 (soon to be 2) lost seasons here.
Quote from: Boone on January 07, 2011, 07:27:48 PM
Would Erik even want to return next season if he was only going to get 8-10 minutes per game? He's already had 1.5 (soon to be 2) lost seasons here.
If he was good enough at present - he'd be on the floor. There are A LOT of Top 75-125 players who don't see a lot of court time as freshman and sophomores at the high major level. What MU fans aren't accustomed to is having so much talent on a team that a Top 100 kid doesn't come in and contribute immediately. It's a new era for MU basketball, and unless you are s STUD freshman you are not going to come in and get much PT. This is what happens when you dont' have empty recruiting classes in successive years.
Quote from: Boone on January 07, 2011, 07:27:48 PM
Would Erik even want to return next season if he was only going to get 8-10 minutes per game? He's already had 1.5 (soon to be 2) lost seasons here.
I don't consider his seasons lost. He's simply 10th or so on the depth chart. I agree that he takes Fulce's role as a junior/senior unless he makes a decision to sit a year before playing 2 at a mid major. I like EWill as a young player and think he will contibute as an upperclassman. No team in BEast competition is going to go 10 deep regularly.
I am glad that Fulce is back and hopefully he stays healthy. However, it has occurred to me that his being back takes away playing time from Williams and Jones, which is not a good thing for our future especially if one of them decided to transfer because of playing time.
Quote from: bilsu on January 07, 2011, 08:51:56 PM
I am glad that Fulce is back and hopefully he stays healthy. However, it has occurred to me that his being back takes away playing time from Williams and Jones, which is not a good thing for our future especially if one of them decided to transfer because of playing time.
I know some will be bothered by this but I have to ask again a couple questions:
- Is Fulce really that much better than Ewill or Jones? I dont know the answer on offense, just defense.
- Would playing Jones or Ewill a little really kill us? It sure would help out our BE in game experience level next year.
- At some point we cannot just hide behind Vander's fantastic defense and above average driving ability. His shooting is horrid. He deserves his minutes, cause of his upside, but does Jones deserve basically zero?
Quote from: chren21 on January 08, 2011, 04:47:46 PM
- Is Fulce really that much better than Ewill or Jones? I dont know the answer on offense, just defense.
- Would playing Jones or Ewill a little really kill us? It sure would help out our BE in game experience level next year.
- At some point we cannot just hide behind Vander's fantastic defense and above average driving ability. His shooting is horrid. He deserves his minutes, cause of his upside, but does Jones deserve basically zero?
- Fulce is clearly the most polished defender, I think his offense is okay, but it's his energy that sets him apart. I think that's what earns him minutes.
- I think our margin for error is very slim this year. We'll need 11-12 conference wins to make the tourney, and since we always play close, it makes sense to have the more reliable Fulce on the floor.
- I think it's also position. Jones is more a 3 while Blue is used as a 1-2. We're simply deeper up front, while our 4-guard rotation gives VB more chances.
Blue seemed to be playing a good deal of 3 today, no?
Quote from: chren21 on January 08, 2011, 04:59:21 PM
Blue seemed to be playing a good deal of 3 today, no?
He did...but I think it's different when we go to a 3-guard set with DJO, Blue, and Buycks/Caddy. Blue is out there primarily for defense, and he can D up most 3's. Offensively, as the third guard, he's not much of a drain because he's the 4th-5th option.
I guess I'd look at it like this. Blue is a 1st option defender and 4th option attacker. Jones would be a 4th option on both. That's why Blue will get minutes and Mellow won't, because he is a standout on one end.
Erik's played all of 1 minute in the last 4 games and zero in the last 3. Wouldn't be at all surprised if he takes his game elsewhere next season.
Why does evryone always assume eWill is ready to leave?
Quote from: MU B2002 on January 08, 2011, 10:44:33 PM
Why does evryone always assume eWill is ready to leave?
Because other top 150 prospects that aren't getting playing time (Maymon, Smith) or rather not getting the playing time they want are leaving. I don't want to see Williams leave, I still think he has plenty of upside and clearly has a lot of talent, but I think it'd be fair to say he probably expected more PT by now when he originally committed.
Not that I told you so, I think E-Will is dead wood.